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Old 02-13-2008, 11:21 AM   #21
i2Glide
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Originally Posted by Eric Payne View Post
T not too far from our home in a strip mall.
You live in a strip mal? Just kidding

I did my tour with the Marines. Can't say it was fr me but it did teach me a lot. I was a young kid that thought he knew it all and though it was a shock at the beginning it was a great experience in my life.

KSagal is right, there are doers and talkers. Unfortunately mostly talkers nowadays.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:29 PM   #22
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Well, I think I can see where the Marines are coming from on this one. There are 40,000 'green card' members of America's Armed Forces, about 2% of active service members, with a third of those being legal Hispanic immigrants. In an area with a high immigrant population, why not advertise military service to new residents? Its honorable work, good pay & benefits, a chance to advance their education and puts them on a fast track for full citizenship. Not a bad deal for young person new to the country.
I don't disagree with you, John - except, of course, the center, most prominently displayed figure of the four was the tall, blonde swimmer's build Caucasian male - but the implication, at least to me (and Bill... both of us count Starship as one of our favorite films) is that enlistment in the Armed Forces is a requirement of citizenship - even to those born in the country. Obviously, it's not.

But something all administrations have done, at least since I've been alive, is to infer to the population that something else is required to be a "true American" other than to simply be a legal resident of the United States. I realize some of the younger people who voted for the first time in the last cycle - or will be voting for the first time in this cycle - are unaware that the same line touted by the current Administration of negative comments about the Administration is tantamount to treason was also used by Johnson and Nixon during the Viet Nam war. For all I know, variants of the same lines were used during the Korea conflict, as well as WW II and WW I. And, like Bush, both Nixon and Johnson attempted to enshrine into law, at various times, that belief - speaking out against the President, during a time of war, would, simply, be illegal.

The difference, of course, is that those other Administrations weren't openly "eavesdropping" on private communications between individuals. Nixon had people investigated by the FBI on whims; he also had his "Enemies list." And wiretapped phones... but didn't throw out a blanket to, potentially, reel in every American's phone conversations and mail - both of snail- and e- variety. This one has.

Two years ago, I made a prediction from which I've still not completely backed down, though I admit the approval numbers for Bush and Company now make such a scenario much more unlikely: I predicted there would be some type of "terrorist attack" between August and October of this year, which would enable the President to declare martial law (temporarily, of course) and suspend the General Elections in November.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:31 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Eric Payne
not to far from our home in a strip mall
Quote:
Originally Posted by i2Glide View Post
You live in a strip mal? Just kidding

I did my tour with the Marines. Can't say it was fr me but it did teach me a lot. I was a young kid that thought he knew it all and though it was a shock at the beginning it was a great experience in my life.

KSagal is right, there are doers and talkers. Unfortunately mostly talkers nowadays.
Damn those dangling participles! Damn those dangling chads! Damn, damn all things dangly!

Well... maybe not all things dangly... but a majority.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:35 PM   #24
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Starship Troopers

Citizens!
Robert Heinlein was truly gifted, but it doesn’t take a genius to see that Starship Troopers, first published in 1959, is a handbook for the present.
We see it in the constant stream of patriotic, flame-fanning war news from all of the competing U.S. networks, the visions of "success" and "achievement" and "progress." We see simple heroes made of our soldiers, cameras cradling their young faces, and rolling their comments of "I’m proud of what we are doing here" and "It’s the right thing for America."
...
Karen Kwiatkowski is a recently retired USAF lieutenant colonel, who spent her final four and a half years in uniform working at the Pentagon. She now lives with her freedom-loving family in the Shenandoah Valley.
Interesting? Perhaps, but she obviously hasn't read it much better than the director of the farcical movie, who admitted he never finished the book. Too many discrepancies to spend time delineating, but anyone who has actually read the book in more than a cursory fashion will note the obvious flaws in her "analysis". If she was as careless in performing her duties at the Pentagon, I feel sorry for her subordinates.
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:07 PM   #25
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Too many discrepancies to spend time delineating, but anyone who has actually read the book in more than a cursory fashion will note the obvious flaws in her "analysis".
Hate to tell you this, but the comparison between the current administration, its handling of the war, its view of "patriotism" and Starship Troopers does not begin and end with Karen Kwiatkowski.

The comparison has been made many, many times by many, many people including but not limited to those within the current administration. If you doubt that, you can google it yourself.
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:21 PM   #26
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Sister Bluebird flying high above,
Shine your wings forward to the sun.
Hide the myst'ries of life on your way.
Though you've seen them, please don't say a word.
What you don't know, I have never heard.

Starship Trooper, go sailing on by,
Catch my soul, catch the very light.
Hide the moment from my eager eye.
Though you've seen them, please don't tell a soul.
What you can't see, can't be very whole.

Speak to me of summer, long winters longer than time can remember,
The setting up of other roads, to travel on in old accustomed ways.
I still remember the talks by the water, the proud sons and daughter that,
Knew the knowledge of the land, that spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways.

Mother life, hold firmly on to me.
Catch my knowledge higher than the day.
Lose as much as only you can show.
Though you've seen them, please don't say a word.
What I don't know, I have never shared.
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:31 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Payne View Post
... (and Bill... both of us count Starship as one of our favorite films)
Sorry to hear that, Eric. I thought you guys had better taste. Virginia Heinlein should have sued the studio, the screen-writers, and the director for fraud. About the only correlations between the novel and the movie were the name of the protagonist and the fact that they were fighting bugs. Not much else from the book was put on-screen. One of the most juvenile films I've ever seen.

Not only my opinion - Pulitzer Prize winning reviewer Roger Ebert wrote of it:
"``Starship Troopers'' is the most violent kiddie movie ever made. I call it a kiddie movie not to be insulting, but to be accurate: Its action, characters and values are pitched at 11-year-old science-fiction fans." And Kenneth Turan described it as "…jaw-dropping experience, so rigorously one-dimensional and free from even the pretense of intelligence."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Payne View Post
... I realize some ... are unaware that the same line touted by the current Administration of negative comments about the Administration is tantamount to treason ... that belief - speaking out against the President, during a time of war, would, simply, be illegal.
In fact, if you are a commissioned officer in the Armed Forces (including those drawing retired pay, such as the above mentioned Lt.Col Kwiatkowski), it is a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice - specifically Article 88 - and there is no requirement that it be in time of war.

ART. 88 - CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

and also see DoD Directive 1325.6:
Guidelines for Handling Dissident and Protest Activities Among Members
of the Armed Forces http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/c...df/132506p.pdf for further guidance.

So, while I suspect you were making a statement about the general populace, there is a significant number that ARE constrained from making such comments. And the penalties can be significant -- loss of all pay and benefits as well as confinement in prison.

Last edited by Five-Flags; 02-13-2008 at 01:45 PM.. Reason: Colored for legibility
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Five-Flags View Post
ART. 88 - CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
What that means is that an officer can't call the President, for instance, a MFer.

What is does NOT do is prohibit them from criticizing the President, et al. for what they may or may not be doing.

Ref
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:24 PM   #29
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What that means is that an officer can't call the President, for instance, a MFer.

What is does NOT do is prohibit them from criticizing the President, et al. for what they may or may not be doing.

Ref
From your reference, the fourth element of the offense is:

(4) That the words used were contemptuous, either in themselves or by virtue of the circumstances under which they were used.
...
From the Manual for Courts Martial:

It is immaterial whether the [contemptuous] words are used against the official in an official or private capacity.
... and
The truth or falsity of the statements is immaterial.

and the definition from The Military Judges' Benchbook, paragraph 3-12-1d:

"Contemptuous" means insulting, rude, disdainful or otherwise disrespectfully attributing to another qualities of meanness, disreputableness, or worthlessness.

There's a lot of leeway there for the Court to decide whether or not that element has been met.
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:28 PM   #30
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Perhaps so, but traditionally they've pretty much come down on the side of the two line explanation that I've given. Essentially, you can, in fact, make a criticism of the President, et al., but you still have to frame it within reasonably respectful language. The article in question would pretty much never hold up as actionable in a Court of Military Justice.

Re-read the article and find the passage you think would apply. I certainly can't find one.
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Last edited by quade; 02-13-2008 at 02:35 PM..
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