TEXT: Protest petition by IDF reservists back from the war

[Buckaroo Banzai]

Amen. And this goes for Iraq too, IMHO.

TEXT: Protest petition by IDF reservists back from the war

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/753032.html

Shalom.

[RC Mike]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

Amen. And this goes for Iraq too, IMHO.

Originally Posted by the petition

At the back of his mind, each and every one of us knew, that for the just cause of protecting the citizens of Israel, we would even put our lives on the line.

But there was one thing we were not and would not be willing to accept: We were unwilling to accept indecisiveness. The war's aim, which was not defined clearly, was even changed in the course of the fighting.

The indecisiveness manifested itself in inaction, in not carrying out operational plans, and in canceling all the missions we were given during the fighting. This led to prolonged stays in hostile territory, without an operational purpose and out of unprofessional considerations, without seeking to engage in combat with the enemy.

The "cold feet" of the decision-makers were evident everywhere. To us the indecisiveness expressed deep disrespect for our willingness to join the ranks and fight and made us feel as though we had been spat on, since it contradicts the principles and values of warfare upon which we were trained at the Israel Defense Forces.

Originally Posted by the petition

We paid a heavy price in order to fight and come out of the battle victorious, and we feel this has been denied of us. We will all attend calls to enlist in the future for any mission we will be required to complete, but we would like to know that these missions will be part of a clear objective and will be carried out by striving to engage in combat.

So are you saying that those who are calling for the men in the field to declare victory and run are wrong and should shut up? Are you saying that we need to allow the commanders on the field do the job they were sent to do? I know you can't be, because that would mean we agree on something.

Mike

[Buckaroo Banzai]

Hi Mike,

If you love this war and think it's worth fighting why not enlist?

I'm saying our soldiers need (and should be able) to express their feelings and experiences about the mis-management of our war to the "fat-***-brass" and "suits" sitting in their air-conditioned offices.

Not sure what you are saying.

How many of our "leaders" have skin in the game? (Their own kids)

Have you heard of one funeral for a son or daughter of a congressman or someone in this "administration" killed in battle? I haven't. Maybe one.

Hoping we can all agree our boys and girls should not just be silent cannon fodder forever. They are already speaking up, as are their families and some top brass too.

Heard about the “back door draft?”. Some Marine families are seriously pissed, for good reason, IMHO.

Peace.

P.S. Have you figured out what a neo-con is yet? Steven declared he is NOT one how about you?

[RC Mike]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

Hi Mike,

If you love this war and think it's worth fighting why not enlist?

I did. 14 years ago.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

I'm saying our soldiers need (and should be able) to express their feelings and experiences about the mis-management of our war to the "fat-***-brass" and "suits" sitting in their air-conditioned offices.

Not sure what you are saying.

They can and do. Same way you and I can. They write their congressman, senator, or whoever they want to. They are not supposed to be in uniform at political events, but otherwise they have the same rights as you.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

How many of our "leaders" have skin in the game? (Their own kids)

Have you heard of one funeral for a son or daughter of a congressman or someone in this "administration" killed in battle? I haven't. Maybe one.

More as a percentage of the population than the public at large. Currently 4 active duty or reserve children of the members of the legislative branch. Now odds are against one of those 4 being one of the 2500 dead when the force including reserves is in the multiple millions.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

Heard about the “back door draft?”. Some Marine families are seriously pissed, for good reason, IMHO.

Enlighten us Josh? Is this where they are told they will not rotate at a predicted date? If it is I guess I should be pissed at Clinton when he cut my leave short cause China was threatening Taiwan and my ship had to leave. Events change plans every day in the military Josh, that is life in the military.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

Have you figured out what a neo-con is yet? Steven declared he is NOT one how about you?

According to that Wikipedia article I am not but I also am.

According to you, which is anyone who does not believe the world will get better if we just say peace, love, and Kum-bay-ah then I would say probably.

Since according to the Wikipedia article if you read between the bulls#!t, what a neo-con really is is a derisive term for anyone more conservative than you who you don't agree with, I am sure I am.

I agree with Condi. I would like to make the world a better place with discussion, but I am realistic enough to know that putting a "teach peace" or "there is no way to peace, peace is the way" bumper sticker on my segway is not going keep Iran from building nukes or calm down any one who wants to kill my country. And I know that running away now will hurt us more and more in the future.

Mike

[Buckaroo Banzai]

Hi Mike,

Do a google search for "Back door draft" and see what you find.
Here's one I picked at random...
http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/959
I have no idea if this source is liberal or conservative.

Here we go...

"I did. 14 years ago."

God bless you... but... and?
Some of our guys are on their 3rd and 4th tour.
They need your help. Hell, they extended the age to what 42?

"Currently 4 active duty or reserve children of the members of the legislative branch"

4???? Give me a break. What about the EXECUTIVE branch? You know, the guys who got us into this mess.

"According to that Wikipedia article I am not but I also am."

P l e a s e do you own research. There is much written about the neo-cons by the neo-cons themselves. Read please.

"According to you, which is anyone who does not believe the world will get better if we just say peace, love, and Kum-bay-ah then I would say probably."

Please show me when I wrote that. That's just silly. Have you read Steven's post "War, what is it good for?" Why don't you get hostile with him?

"And I know that running away now will hurt us more and more in the future."

You and I don't know anything about tomorrow.
Not even if the sun will rise. Sorry man.

"I am realistic enough to know that putting a "teach peace" or "there is no way to peace, peace is the way" bumper sticker on my segway is not going keep Iran from building nukes or calm down any one who wants to kill my country."

Maybe not. But it's a good start, IMO.

Maybe if we didn't have our military all over their part of the world, permanent bases in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the UAE, and IRAQ, they wouldn't want to "kill our country". Defending Israel is one thing, occupying countries and bombing civilians certainly is not going to make them stop wanting to "kill our country".

But at least you're not calling me a racist this time. That was hysterical. Especially if you knew the make-up of my family. LMFAO!
The racist neo-hippy? That's like a peace-loving neo-con.
Doesn't happen.

Although racism is certainly alive and well here still...

Black students ordered to give up seats to whites
Status of Red River Parish bus driver is unknown

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/...0332/1002/NEWS

Peace.

[Buckaroo Banzai]

Sorry Mike,

I'm sobering up now. You thought I called you a racist.
I'll put down the crack pipe for the night.

My bad,

Josh

[RC Mike]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

Hi Mike,

Do a google search for "Back door draft" and see what you find.
Here's one I picked at random...
http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/959
I have no idea if this source is liberal or conservative.

Ever heard of a contract? When you join the military you sign a contract. Until 2 years ago, I was in the ready reserve. If they needed someone to work in a steam powered warship, I could have been called up. When you sign the paper, you agree to the terms on that paper. That is life Josh, not UN life, where you sign the paper and it really doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

Here we go...

"I did. 14 years ago."

God bless you... but... and?
Some of our guys are on their 3rd and 4th tour.
They need your help. Hell, they extended the age to what 42?

"Currently 4 active duty or reserve children of the members of the legislative branch"

4???? Give me a break. What about the EXECUTIVE branch? You know, the guys who got us into this mess.

4 out of 535 is quite a few. Compared to 2.1 million out of 300 million.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

"According to that Wikipedia article I am not but I also am."

P l e a s e do you own research. There is much written about the neo-cons by the neo-cons themselves. Read please.

Why? So I can answer a stupid question? If I do not agree with you, I am a Neo-con. End of story.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

"According to you, which is anyone who does not believe the world will get better if we just say peace, love, and Kum-bay-ah then I would say probably."

Please show me when I wrote that. That's just silly. Have you read Steven's post "War, what is it good for?" Why don't you get hostile with him?

Because I agree with most of that post. Hezbollah caused that war, and the muslum world(and maybe you) thinks it is all Isreal's fault for bombing civilians(never mind that they fire rockets from apartments, and place their armories in hospitals and day care centers).

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

"And I know that running away now will hurt us more and more in the future."

You and I don't know anything about tomorrow.
Not even if the sun will rise. Sorry man.

Those who have no clue about history are doomed.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

"I am realistic enough to know that putting a "teach peace" or "there is no way to peace, peace is the way" bumper sticker on my segway is not going keep Iran from building nukes or calm down any one who wants to kill my country."

Maybe not. But it's a good start, IMO.

Maybe if we didn't have our military all over their part of the world, permanent bases in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the UAE, and IRAQ, they wouldn't want to "kill our country". Defending Israel is one thing, occupying countries and bombing civilians certainly is not going to make them stop wanting to "kill our country".

we have small intelligence bases in Saudi, all others have left, no bases in Jordan, but we do make port calls with the navy, Steven would know better, but I don't know of any bases in UAE. Iraq, well, when the legally elected government asks us to leave, we will.

Originally Posted by Buckaroo Banzai

But at least you're not calling me a racist this time. That was hysterical. Especially if you knew the make-up of my family. LMFAO!
The racist neo-hippy? That's like a peace-loving neo-con.
Doesn't happen.

Although racism is certainly alive and well here still...

Black students ordered to give up seats to whites
Status of Red River Parish bus driver is unknown

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/...0332/1002/NEWS

Peace.

I believe that was you calling me racist.

Mike

Sorry, I had to edit.

[Desert_Seg]

Whoa Josh. Don't twist my words. When force is needed we use force. Although I deplore the death that war causes it is sometimes necessary. Yes, I believe that the Hezbollah is the reason for the calamity in Lebanon and yes, there may have been instances of collateral damage when Israel attacked BUT I believe Israel was justified in attacking.

Clarification. We no longer have bases in Saudi, never had bases in Jordan, and do NOT have permanent bases in UAE (although we do have forward deployed forces here). The only countries in the Middle East in which we have a formal presence and formal bases are Qatar and Bahrain. Don't count Iraq as of now.

TTFN,

Steven