Iswing versus Segway

[Tarkus]

Originally Posted by roro

Stan,

Was there also a computer animated Video Segway Video in 1980??
;-))

Rob

No, but a HUGE amount of bravado before Ginger, IT, Segway made it's somewhat dubious debut.

In time there will be another Seg like product that is of the same quality.

But first the market must be there and at the moment it's not.

When Toyota pulls the trigger it will be a good product whatever its niche.

[mario-ramos]

Anyway that Bush's gift to Japan prime minister (a segway) made public was a reminder of who came first. The big guys are coming (toyota)

As i posted in another forum here, now we know that there are many "heavy" guys involved on the segway project. It's not just "a scooter".

http://www.vanityfair.com/features/g...s/060320fege01

[mario-ramos]

Originally Posted by mario-ramos

Anyway that Bush's gift to Japan prime minister (a segway) made public was a reminder of who came first. The big guys are coming (toyota)

As i posted in another forum here, now we know that there are many "heavy" guys involved on the segway project. It's not just "a scooter".

http://www.vanityfair.com/features/g...s/060320fege01

Some minds may have changed:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...7-segway_x.htm

[mario-ramos]

"Conspiracy" timeline: (eh eh)

October, 11th, 2005:
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadge...way-130243.php

November, 16th, 2005:
http://news.3yen.com/2005-11-16/bush...ister-koizumi/

[Stan671]

Originally Posted by citivolus

Technically, I think that is pretty close. IIRC in controls theory, a Segway does look like an inverted pendulum

I understand that Segway's Dynamic Stabilization uses inverted pendulem theory, but the Segway has never been descibed as using a "computer controlled pendulem" to do it's magic. Not even the worst reporter has used an expression like that for the Segway.

This is one of the reasons why I suspect that the Toyota iSwing does not use the same Dynamic Stabilization technique as the Segway does. The other reason is that Segway, Inc. has patents on everything Segway-related and I doubt Toyota would step on those patents.

If you watch the video, when the rider is moving around in 2-wheel mode, s/he is very tentative and subdued. When a Segway, Inc factory rep (or any one of us) is demonstrating a Segway, we are all over the place with fast moves and spins, etc. in order to show off. I suspect that the slow movements the iSwing does in 2-wheel mode are all it can do. And I suspect that this limitation is because the method of stabilization used is by somehow moving a counterweight (pendulem) to counteract the falling action of the machine.

[Stan671]

The text of the article describing the iSwing mentions that the rider leans in order to help control the machine during a turn. Look at the rider - s/he is jammed into a narrow, form-fitting, high back chair. The rider cannot put any body language into the controls like we can on the Segway. You sit in the iSwing and ride it like a kid crammed into a car seat.

The machine does lean into turns when in 3-wheel mode because you can see the rear wheels tilting a bit as it makes a very impressive (not) 1 MPH, 10 foot diameter circle.

In it's present form, there is no way it can pass the NEV requirements to be able to ride on the street. And it is way too big for use on the sidewalk. So, it looks like it is only useful for doing slow motion maneuvers at car shows as a cheap publicity stunt.

[citivolus]

Originally Posted by Stan671

In it's present form, there is no way it can pass the NEV requirements to be able to ride on the street. And it is way too big for use on the sidewalk. So, it looks like it is only useful for doing slow motion maneuvers at car shows as a cheap publicity stunt.

I thought it moved much like the iBot does in balance mode since it has to first roll the wheels back to allow it to "fall" forward and initiate motion. I agree that they would either have to reinvent DS or license it. Also there is Yamafuji's Japanese patent(1) that may allow Toyota enough wiggle room to work off of and likely provide an opportunity to establish their own IP in the area. Clearly, it has some catching up to do but it will be interesting in the final form and definitely doesn't allow the Segway team any time to relax.

Sure it might be a publicity stunt, but I think it is wonderful that they are even looking in that direction. Perhaps Toyota can see Dean's vision of the future and likes it. I do think the wireless 'link up' feature is cool.

(1)http://www.techgeek.com/subpage/inde...=998&item=1097

[Stan671]

The information about Yamafuji's Japanese patent is very interesting. I had not heard about this. From the description, however, even though the effect is the same - a self balancing machine - the method of balance is quite different from Yamafuji's device to Dean's. Yamafuji seems to be using a ground feeling sensor and a counterbalancing pendulem while Dean uses tilt sensors and motor controls.

Hmmm ... I wonder if this is the technology used in the Toyota iSwing? Actually, I would bet on it.

Also, keep in mind that DEKA developed the self balancing mode of the iBot long before it developed and then spun off the Segway HT product. I have heard that Dean and DEKA spent at least 20 years on the iBot technology. One would have to research the iBot patents to see what they patented for the self-balancing mode and when.

[mario-ramos]

The point is: whenever you have smoke, you have fire.
If a big guy like toyota is considering to enter this market, it means this is a big, big market.

[Sleepy]

I thought you all might be interested in this.
I got the i-Swing and the i-Unit brochures at the Cool Products Expo in Palo Alto yesterday. Segway Inc was there showing the Centaur and RMP. Here are some scans:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52435433@N00/

-Alex