SegwayChat
Home . Old Gallery

Go Back   SegwayChat > Other Topics > Science and Technology

Notices

Science and Technology Science & technology discussions not related to the Segway. This includes discussion of Segway knockoffs and clones.

Old 08-14-2005, 11:40 AM   #1
macgeek
Super Crazy
Segway Geek
macgeek is a splendid one to beholdmacgeek is a splendid one to beholdmacgeek is a splendid one to beholdmacgeek is a splendid one to beholdmacgeek is a splendid one to beholdmacgeek is a splendid one to beholdmacgeek is a splendid one to behold
 
macgeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 2,757
5 yr Member
Default Experimental Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 Mpg

Experimental Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 Mpg
By TIM MOLLOY



(AP) ADVANCE FOR AUG. 14: graphic explains the Toyota Prius and talks about how some people are modifing...

CORTE MADERA, Calif. (AP) - Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.

It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret - a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel.

Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.

Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb - all for about a quarter.

He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg.

They have support not only from environmentalists but also from conservative foreign policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism through their gas guzzling.

And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are beginning to take notice, too.

So far, DaimlerChrysler AG (DCX) is the only company that has committed to building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them.

"They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy."

The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg.

"The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference."

Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power.

Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price.

But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost, convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids - and note that consumers haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of recharging them like giant cell phones.

Automakers have spent millions of dollars telling motorists that hybrids don't need to be plugged in, and don't want to confuse the message.

Nonetheless, plug-in hybrids are starting to get the backing of prominent hawks like former CIA director James Woolsey and Frank Gaffney, President Reagan's undersecretary of defense. They have joined Set America Free, a group that wants the government to spend $12 billion over four years on plug-in hybrids, alternative fuels and other measures to reduce foreign oil dependence.

Gaffney, who heads the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, said Americans would embrace plug-ins if they understood arguments from him and others who say gasoline contributes to oil-rich Middle Eastern governments that support terrorism.

"The more we are consuming oil that either comes from places that are bent on our destruction or helping those who are ... the more we are enabling those who are trying to kill us," Gaffney said.

DaimlerChrysler spokesman Nick Cappa said plug-in hybrids are ideal for companies with fleets of vehicles that can be recharged at a central location at night. He declined to name the companies buying the vehicles and said he did not know the vehicles' mileage or cost, or when they would be available.

Others are modifying hybrids, too.

Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said.

University of California, Davis engineering professor Andy Frank built a plug-in hybrid from the ground up in 1972 and has since built seven others, one of which gets up to 250 mpg. They were converted from non-hybrids, including a Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Suburban.

Frank has spent $150,000 to $250,000 in research costs on each car, but believes automakers could mass-produce them by adding just $6,000 to each vehicle's price tag.

Instead, Frank said, automakers promise hydrogen-powered vehicles hailed by President Bush and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though hydrogen's backers acknowledge the cars won't be widely available for years and would require a vast infrastructure of new fueling stations.

"They'd rather work on something that won't be in their lifetime, and that's this hydrogen economy stuff," Frank said. "They pick this kind of target to get the public off their back, essentially."

On the Net:

CalCars Initiative: http://calcars.org
macgeek is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 01:28 PM   #2
W9GFO
Member
W9GFO is an unknown quantity at this point
 
W9GFO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Seattle, Washington
Posts: 758
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

Very misleading usage of mpg.

I used to drive a semi that would get over 100 mpg - while going downhill. The engine was still running but the primary source of power was the stored potential energy of altitude.

This 230 mpg Prius uses the same logic - stored electrical energy from being plugged in. Sheesh.

Rich H

The Un-Official Segway Battery FAQ
http://www.spinfoot.com/SegwayBatteryFAQ.html
W9GFO is offline  
Old 08-16-2005, 04:57 PM   #3
Sid Viscous
Member
Sid Viscous
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: , , .
Posts: 607
5 yr Member
Default

Yeah, make a major modification to the energy system (Input and output) and totally remove that from consideration in your mileage.

By the same logic I could drop a secondary diesel engine in the back of my Exploder, use the gas engine to charge the battery and get, what, 500 mpg.

Actually my Porsche can travel around the world on one tank of gas.

It has a secondary Plate Tectonic drive system. Get's great Mileage, but lousy acceleration.

__________________
What's the font Knneth
Sid Viscous is offline  
Old 08-16-2005, 06:02 PM   #4
pam
Last of the Early 30
pam has a reputation beyond reputepam has a reputation beyond reputepam has a reputation beyond reputepam has a reputation beyond reputepam has a reputation beyond reputepam has a reputation beyond reputepam has a reputation beyond reputepam has a reputation beyond reputepam has a reputation beyond reputepam has a reputation beyond reputepam has a reputation beyond repute
 
pam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Yelm, WA
Posts: 4,679
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

You guys are more the technical whizzes than I am, and leaving aside the question of whether you end up paying more for plugged in electricity or gas at the pump, but just looking at it in terms of gas at the pump, wouldn't this decrease the cost of gas at the pump because you'd end up buying less of it - so you would get more "mpg" - in essence - more miles for each gallon you bought?

I mean, I know that with my Insight I got up to 84mpg (well, actually, using the gauge that went across the bottom of the speedometer display, I could get over 100mpg for very short periods of time, and by conscious driving could keep it at around 65mpg) but ultimately, over the life of the car (the driving), the average I sustained was 57mpg. This was still about 2x what I could get in any other car I'd driven up to that time.

So, my question is (from this non-technical person)are you saying that the article above says 250mpg, and it's really like I'm saying over 100mpg on my insight, but that ultimately it would be considerably less (like my 57mpg)?

Pam
pam is offline  
Old 08-16-2005, 06:56 PM   #5
W9GFO
Member
W9GFO is an unknown quantity at this point
 
W9GFO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Seattle, Washington
Posts: 758
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

I don't think it's quite the same. Especially since you say that you can only achieve 100 mpg for a short period of time.

The reality is that their system does not do anything to increase the mpg. Once the stored electrical energy from being plugged in has been used up I'm sure the mileage is actually worse due to all the added weight.

I think the idea is alright - just horribly misrepresented.

As far as buying less gas at the pump - sure you are getting more miles per gallon of gas purchased but the numbers are meaningless. Owners of electric vehicles never buy gas at the pump, they get infinte mpg. If I added batteries and an electric motor to my minivan I could also get infinite mpg - as long as my trips were short enough not to drain my storage batteries. If my trips were just a little longer my mileage might go down to 1000 mpg. The longer my trip the less my mpg. It does not represent how efficiently the vehicle converts gasoline to useful work.

Rich H
W9GFO is offline  
Old 08-16-2005, 06:57 PM   #6
Sid Viscous
Member
Sid Viscous
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: , , .
Posts: 607
5 yr Member
Default

How do you make the electricity? That's the point. He has a separately located engine that is burning some kind of fuel.

He is essentially got a hybrid/hybrid. Hybrid engine hybrided with an electric car.

All he has really done is added extra batteries. And a charging circuit from the wall, about as revolutionary as filling up his tires to get better mileage (which really does give you better mileage). But in reality is more of 3 card Monty scam. Look I’m only using x gallons of gas from over here, distracting you from over there where he is getting the equivalent of 3x gallons of gas.

I also believe if you read the article that that 250 mpg only works for 20 miles. So long as your commute is less than 20 miles your fine, on a daily basis. Once you drive more than that you start getting into your issue of, peak versus sustained like you mentioned. His peak is in the first 20 miles, after that he goes down to LESS than a normal Prius because he has the extra weight of batteries to carry.

In essence it's the same argument for/against an electric car. In some cases it's workable, but all around for most people, it's not a good compromise.

Then you have to factor in the energy/fuel costs for the electricity, which is not done in this mythical 250 mpg which is Rich and my point.

On top of that you have to factor in the energy and environmental impact of the batteries. As a Segway owner you well know that the batteries don't last forever. That 20 miles would soon fall to 18, then 15, at some point they are no longer worth the effort and start hindering the overall mileage. Time to replace them. If we assume the charging circuit costs $200, that means he's got a $2,800 periodic battery replacement. Worse case scenario every year, best case every 2 years maybe as much as 3.

But yes he is just looking at the gas at the pump, and that is the problem. Would you say I could get 300 mpg if I spent a lot of time siphoning gasoline out of other peoples gas tanks? I mean I'm only buying X gallons at the pump. Leaving aside that I steal 6 X gallons from other people.

It's all well and good to find ways to find more efficiency, but ignoring the math is not one.

Congrats on the Insight, your doing much better than most (based on the gauge, you ever tracked it on gas purchased?). I'm betting that you do a lot of city driving, that's where hybrids perform best. If you did any long haul driving that would drop significantly. But there are standard Internal combustion engines that can approach what you’ve done. You hadn’t driven them until then because you didn’t want to be seen in public driving one, for instance the Yugo, or the Le Car. The 1983 Renault Alliance got 36mpg City 50+ mpg Highway, Long before Hybrid cars were even thought of.

It’s all somewhat complicated. You have to factor in all the different variables and energy sources, not just picking one. More importantly can it scale up. Anyone in CA will tell you that our electricity generating capacity is not even enough to meet current demands, what happens when 250 Million people start plugging their cars into the walls. I could power a car by scavenged junk wood from my town, but not everyone in my town could do that. More importantly, we currently have no way to generate electricity that is any better in any aspect than burning gasoline in your car, and it is not as efficient. If it was electric cars would be taking off by now. I mean modification of my cars to 100% electric wouldn’t be hard at all, nor would it be expensive. But I wouldn’t want the performance loss, the reduced range, or the lower efficiency. Nor would I want to spend thousands of dollars on batteries every couple of years.

Fact of the matter. For a motorized vehicle there is currently no fuel better than gasoline or diesel, nor anything on the horizon. There is nothing that comes close to the amount of energy per volume than diesel or gasoline. As a point of reference. If you can convert your car to Liquid Hydrogen your gas tank would have to be approximately 3 times larger than it is now, never mind the safety considerations.

This is a very interesting link in regards to that.

http://xtronics.com/reference/energy_density.htm


__________________
What's the font Knneth
Sid Viscous is offline  
Old 08-16-2005, 07:04 PM   #7
Sid Viscous
Member
Sid Viscous
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: , , .
Posts: 607
5 yr Member
Default

As another reference to the scam aspect.

There is a guy who has a vehicle that runs on "water". He uses a battery to seperate the hydrogen out of the water, then burns it in a modified Internal Combustion Engine. He actually drives it wround. So it works and doesn't burn any gas right?

Sounds cool right?

He could actually go further and faster if he just hooked up the battery to an electric motor. What he has created a less efficient electric car (The battery being the power source), because he is loosing a considerable amount of energy in three seperate conversion steps. Fact of the matter is he has to charge it somehow, that's where his energy comes from, not the water (which is one of the most stable compounds in the world, as such it is the OPPOSITE of an energy source). Alls he done is a convuluted magic trick, he certianly hasn't solved the gasoline issue.

To look at it another way. How long would it take to make your money back if every week you gave me $100 and I gave you $50 in return?

__________________
What's the font Knneth
Sid Viscous is offline  
Old 09-08-2005, 01:43 PM   #8
solarseg
Member
solarseg
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: , , .
Posts: 125
5 yr Member
Default

Dratts, I can not do that in my Insight, I soooo want to go all electric.
solarseg is offline  
Old 09-11-2005, 08:11 AM   #9
yop
Member
yop
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: , , .
Posts: 102
5 yr Member
Default

The primary inherent benefit of a plug-in hybrid is not energy efficiency, it's energy independence. By switching to a plug-in hybrid, you are switching from Saudi oil to American coal or nuclear or hydropower.

In addition, you are switching from a non-point pollution source to a point source. In general, it's easier to regulate and monitor a single power plant than thousands of individual cars. You are also likely shifting pollution away from people. Cars go where people go; you can build power plants away from people.

Lastly, with hundreds of thousands of hybrid vehicles plugged in to the grid, you are creating a massive amount of reserve power generating capacity. That's not useful usually (modern power plants do the job cleaner and more efficiently), but it could come in handy in emergencies such as in the aftermath of a hurricane or earthquake, or in situations like the blackout in the Northeast a few years ago. It would also prevent problems like the market manipulation that Enron perpetrated in California.

I think plug-in hybrids are a fantastic idea, and all the technology and nearly all of the required infrastructure are already in place.
yop is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:38 AM.
Copyright © 2002-2023 SegwayChat.org.
All rights reserved. Not affiliated with Segway Inc.

FreshBlue vBulletin skin by
VayaDesign
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SegwayChat Archive