SegwayChat
Home . Photos . Old Gallery

Go Back   SegwayChat > Other Topics > Science and Technology

Notices

Science and Technology Science & technology discussions not related to the Segway. This includes discussion of Segway knockoffs and clones.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-24-2014, 07:13 PM   #21
KSagal
Glides a lot, talks more...
KSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud of
 
KSagal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wilmington, MA, USA.
Posts: 10,350
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

I am not sure why you used a German video, but is that supposed to example your statement that you cannot choose your accidents? That you cannot have control on how you get hurt?

How much did that kid weigh? Was he of the recommended weight? I don't know, and I am sure you do not either.

The entirety of that video had both cameraman and kid doing all kinds of things that were likely to get them in trouble. It was just a matter of time for many of the factors to gather and create the problem.

1. Kid and cameraman were often gliding at full speed and not looking where they were going.

2. Kid had to move on the platform to keep going forward. You can see him move around (which is why I asked his weight)

3. Most importantly, look at the kid's body position just before his accident. He was leaning hard into the segway lean steer, BECAUSE it was slowing him down, and giving him push back. He was ignoring it, and trying to overpower the push back.

So, at the time of his accident, he appeared to be under weight, he clearly was not looking at where he was going, he was ignoring input from the segway in the form of push back, and he was on so many levels riding in a manner contrary to how he should have been riding.

The helmet was a non-factor. I state that it is my clear opinion that if he did not inappropriately do 1, 2, and 3 above, he could have fared better that day without a helmet. Since he did them anyway, with his helmet, it directly attacks your statement that a helmet is his best defense... it was not even a factor here....
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin)
Bene factum melior bene dictum

Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.
KSagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2014, 12:35 PM   #22
Gihgehls
Senior Member
Gihgehls is just really niceGihgehls is just really niceGihgehls is just really niceGihgehls is just really niceGihgehls is just really nice
 
Gihgehls's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Galactic Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 2,086
5 yr Member
Default

I see both sides of this healthy debate. I don't personally wear a helmet when I glide. I can see Bob Y.'s point, I think, which can be summed up as "control the things you have control over, to be prepared for the things you don't."

This is undoubtedly a good philosophy. I think where you two essentially differ is in your risk assessment. Karl has identified many controllable elements of this accident that if changed, would have prevented it. The problem is that not everything is under our own control.

Consider the gliding abilities of some of the best gliders: polo players. Many I know do not wear helmets when gliding, but they do on the field. Why? The ball isn't hard enough to do damage. The rules of the game state that the mallet should never rise above your waist. Of course, everyone is always following the rules, right?

Many confident motorcycle riders choose to wear no helmet (or an unapproved/untested skullcap.) They might believe that since they are so careful, skilled, and experienced the bike will never crash while they are riding it. A real skilled motorcyclist knows that his/her greatest safetfy equipment isn't the helmet, but his/her AWARENESS of all the things he/she cannot control. But it is impossible to account for everything, which is what I think Bob Y. is saying.

Not every segway accident is going to be a low speed, low force event. Consider getting hit by a drunk driver on a crosswalk. You might break every bone in your body and get thrown 30 feet. Wearing a helmet in this situation might mean the difference between life and death. But I don't wear a helmet, so I need to depend on my awareness. I accept that this will only inch me toward 100% safe while never ever reaching it.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"...if you insist on being imprecise in use and unique in definition, you should hardly be surprised that your attempts at communication are poorly understood." -a wise man
Gihgehls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2014, 07:33 PM   #23
KSagal
Glides a lot, talks more...
KSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud of
 
KSagal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wilmington, MA, USA.
Posts: 10,350
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gihgehls View Post
I see both sides of this healthy debate. I don't personally wear a helmet when I glide. I can see Bob Y.'s point, I think, which can be summed up as "control the things you have control over, to be prepared for the things you don't."

This is undoubtedly a good philosophy. I think where you two essentially differ is in your risk assessment. Karl has identified many controllable elements of this accident that if changed, would have prevented it. The problem is that not everything is under our own control.

Consider the gliding abilities of some of the best gliders: polo players. Many I know do not wear helmets when gliding, but they do on the field. Why? The ball isn't hard enough to do damage. The rules of the game state that the mallet should never rise above your waist. Of course, everyone is always following the rules, right?

Many confident motorcycle riders choose to wear no helmet (or an unapproved/untested skullcap.) They might believe that since they are so careful, skilled, and experienced the bike will never crash while they are riding it. A real skilled motorcyclist knows that his/her greatest safetfy equipment isn't the helmet, but his/her AWARENESS of all the things he/she cannot control. But it is impossible to account for everything, which is what I think Bob Y. is saying.

Not every segway accident is going to be a low speed, low force event. Consider getting hit by a drunk driver on a crosswalk. You might break every bone in your body and get thrown 30 feet. Wearing a helmet in this situation might mean the difference between life and death. But I don't wear a helmet, so I need to depend on my awareness. I accept that this will only inch me toward 100% safe while never ever reaching it.
I agree with most everything in this post. Unfortunately, it is "Gihgehls" argument, not Bob's. I believe that Gihgehls and I pretty much agree on this topic. I usually do not wear a helmet, but given some circumstances where there are more variables that I cannot control (like on a polo field) I would wear one...

But if I were to have a conversation with Gihgehls on this topic, my arguments, if any, would be different than what I say to Bob. He is the one who said it is irresponsible for anyone to mount a segway, or allow anyone else to mount a segway without a helmet.

That is a very different argument than Gihgehls makes, and leaves no room for individual risk assessment.

I liken his argument to that of an ex-smoker toward cigarette smoke. I know lots of people who don't like cigarette smoke, but my experience is that the most aggressive are those who are ex-smokers themselves.

Bob is quick to insist it is common sense to wear a helmet, but he himself admits to not wearing them for years. I guess he had no common sense, and now feels he has found common sense.

And common sense to wear a helmet, and irresponsible to not wear one, is a very different argument than variable risk assessment.
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin)
Bene factum melior bene dictum

Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.
KSagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2014, 07:45 PM   #24
Tritium
Member
Tritium will become famous soon enough
 
Tritium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Tucson
Posts: 792
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner
Exclamation

I don't wear a helmet, unless I'm on a tour.
I know that the possible consequences I may incur due to this choice could possibly danger me.
But I'm not going to change how I prefer to live due to a group of people telling me to do so.

It's like vegans.
I eat meat, I don't have any hate towards vegans, however they harass me when I talk about meat/eating meat.
Should I harass them back when they're talking about their chicken "burgers"?
I don't think so.

I also feel we've taken Bobs thread off topic, and even though the post is quite humorous, we're still not talking about people tipping over Segways.
Tritium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2014, 09:34 PM   #25
KSagal
Glides a lot, talks more...
KSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud of
 
KSagal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wilmington, MA, USA.
Posts: 10,350
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritium View Post
I don't wear a helmet, unless I'm on a tour.
I know that the possible consequences I may incur due to this choice could possibly danger me.
But I'm not going to change how I prefer to live due to a group of people telling me to do so.

It's like vegans.
I eat meat, I don't have any hate towards vegans, however they harass me when I talk about meat/eating meat.
Should I harass them back when they're talking about their chicken "burgers"?
I don't think so.

I also feel we've taken Bobs thread off topic, and even though the post is quite humorous, we're still not talking about people tipping over Segways.
Actually, the OP (Bob) mentioned the car tipping. You mentioned the car tipping. I mentioned the car tipping. Then Bob saw my post, and went to his automatic rant about helmets. The debate has been about what the OP said in his 2nd posting on this thread ever since.

Bob wants to discuss this. Some of us are indulging him.
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin)
Bene factum melior bene dictum

Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.
KSagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2014, 11:15 PM   #26
bob yarbrough
Member
bob yarbrough has a little shameless behaviour in the past
 
bob yarbrough's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: mechanicsville, va
Posts: 165
5 yr Member
Default

<<<
Bob is quick to insist it is common sense to wear a helmet, but he himself admits to not wearing them for years. I guess he had no common sense, and now feels he has found common sense.
-----
Karl may well be correct in that I had no common sense (in my early years). The childrens home where I learned to ride a bicycle there was never any type of education/instruction regarding helmets (late 50's & early 60's) given by any guardians in charge of my care and later the same from my parents. In my 50's my wife would suggest the use of a helmet and eventually after a fall or two on a bicycle I would occasionally wear one. My relunctance was one of several different reasons which I previously posted in Karls thread of "do you wear a helmet".

Eventually after several years of ownership of a Segway I saw two young kids riding around on electric scooters without helmets. The thought of one of those kids someday getting hurt because of the absence of a helmet and the fear (real or imagined) that I might
bear some responsibility simply because they had seen me riding without a helmet compelled me to get use to the idea of wearing a helmet all the time while bicycling or gliding.



<<<<
He is the one who said it is irresponsible for anyone to mount a segway, or allow anyone else to mount a segway without a helmet.
-----
I absolutely stand by what I said.
For both liability issues and potential risk issues for all involved.
...new owners and beginner Segway users...


I understand Karl likes to talk...I understand he likes to offer his opinion. Heck I don't even mind if he disagrees with me (even a lot ). What I do mind is it seems a relunctance, or is it an absence of of self-restraint/self-discipline in offering those opinions. Without such discipline his opinions come across (IMHO) as a kind of compulsive or addictive behavior with regard to speaking. It just strikes me as a kind of rude behavior. But again it's just my opinion of his opinions.

-----

Tritium,
Are you the one who would like their Segway to go 15mph.
Soooo...you want to go 15mph without a
helmet on a Segway?
Really???


be safe
enjoy your glide...

Bob Yarbrough
the PONY SEAT guy
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
the PONY SEAT
bob yarbrough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2014, 11:47 PM   #27
Tritium
Member
Tritium will become famous soon enough
 
Tritium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Tucson
Posts: 792
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob yarbrough View Post
Tritium,
Are you the one who would like their Segway to go 15mph.
Soooo...you want to go 15mph without a
helmet on a Segway?
Really???


be safe
enjoy your glide...

Bob Yarbrough
the PONY SEAT guy
Yes, yes I am, a 2.5mph increase would not matter much whether I wear a helmet or not.
If I'm dead, I'm dead, I can't dispute the fact that it is quite easy to die.
Tritium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2014, 12:25 AM   #28
Bob.Kerns
Advanced Member
Bob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of lightBob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of lightBob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of lightBob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of lightBob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of lightBob.Kerns is a glorious beacon of light
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Marin County, CA
Posts: 3,783
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gihgehls View Post
Not every segway accident is going to be a low speed, low force event. Consider getting hit by a drunk driver on a crosswalk. You might break every bone in your body and get thrown 30 feet. Wearing a helmet in this situation might mean the difference between life and death. But I don't wear a helmet, so I need to depend on my awareness. I accept that this will only inch me toward 100% safe while never ever reaching it.
I wear a helmet if I'm going to be sharing the environment intermittently with cars.

I do not wear a helmet if I'll be sharing it with shopping carts.

It's perfectly possible to fall and hit your head on the corner of a shelf and do serious damage, or suffer brain damage from a bad fall onto a store floor.

But I draw my risk threshold between these two points. Cars are dangerous and unpredictable. I know of ZERO bicycle brain-damage events that did not involve an automobile. And zero of any type in stores.

Not a statistically valid sample, but consistent with my decision to draw the line between there.

I find helmets to cause more problems than they solve, in places such as stores, due to their impact on visibility. Not a large impact; I did wear them in stores for a long time, but enough to annoy, as situation awareness is key in preventing not just accidents, but also events that might annoy others.
__________________
Bob Kerns:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Obviously, we can't have infinite voltage, or the universe would tear itself to shreds, and we wouldn't be discussing Segways.
Bob.Kerns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2014, 08:43 PM   #29
Gihgehls
Senior Member
Gihgehls is just really niceGihgehls is just really niceGihgehls is just really niceGihgehls is just really niceGihgehls is just really nice
 
Gihgehls's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Galactic Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 2,086
5 yr Member
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob.Kerns View Post
I wear a helmet if I'm going to be sharing the environment intermittently with cars.

I do not wear a helmet if I'll be sharing it with shopping carts.

It's perfectly possible to fall and hit your head on the corner of a shelf and do serious damage, or suffer brain damage from a bad fall onto a store floor.

But I draw my risk threshold between these two points. Cars are dangerous and unpredictable. I know of ZERO bicycle brain-damage events that did not involve an automobile. And zero of any type in stores.

Not a statistically valid sample, but consistent with my decision to draw the line between there.

I find helmets to cause more problems than they solve, in places such as stores, due to their impact on visibility. Not a large impact; I did wear them in stores for a long time, but enough to annoy, as situation awareness is key in preventing not just accidents, but also events that might annoy others.
Well said, Bob
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"...if you insist on being imprecise in use and unique in definition, you should hardly be surprised that your attempts at communication are poorly understood." -a wise man
Gihgehls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2014, 10:15 PM   #30
KSagal
Glides a lot, talks more...
KSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud ofKSagal has much to be proud of
 
KSagal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Wilmington, MA, USA.
Posts: 10,350
5 yr Member HT/PT Owner SegwayFest Attendee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob yarbrough View Post
<<<
...
Eventually after several years of ownership of a Segway I saw two young kids riding around on electric scooters without helmets. The thought of one of those kids someday getting hurt because of the absence of a helmet and the fear (real or imagined) that I might
bear some responsibility simply because they had seen me riding without a helmet compelled me to get use to the idea of wearing a helmet all the time while bicycling or gliding.


...

Bob Yarbrough
the PONY SEAT guy

I believe this is an honorable sentiment.

I don't happen to agree with it, because these are not your kids, and also because kids and adults are different beings. I presume that Bob does not sit in car seats, to set an example. I presume that Bob is willing to drive a car, even though kids in the neighborhood who see him may want to drive one as well.

So, even though I do not agree, I still think it is a valid reason for Bob to want to wear a helmet. I also think it may be a good reason for him to want others to wear one too, if he feels he has a responsibility to demonstrate a good example.

Simply enough, I am glad that the kids that Bob is trying to influence are not able to see me.

And for the record, I too have done things in the neighborhood, trying to be a good example for the neighborhood kids (and my own) who might see me. But not all those things are to do activities as I believe kids should.
__________________
Karl Ian Sagal

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


"Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin)
Bene factum melior bene dictum

Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.
KSagal is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:51 PM.
Copyright 2002-2017 SegwayChat.org.
All rights reserved. Not affiliated with Segway Inc.

FreshBlue vBulletin skin by
VayaDesign
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SegwayChat Archive