Quandry - Page 2

segsurfer · 03-01-2008, 01:38 PM

Polo_Pro, good to have you back buddy
I think that the poll needs a write in category if that is possible.

If I were faced with the issue mentioned in the poll, I would consult the terms of service to see where I could have possibly violated the terms of service; and/or just write a mod asking them specifically what I have done wrong, and specifically what I can do to rectify the situation. Yes the mod system isn't perfect, but every system has it's inherent flaws and SC is no different.
disclaimer: This is just my personal opinion, you can take it or leave, it it's entirely up to you.
-segsurfer

jryan · 03-01-2008, 05:00 PM

I suppose this would all depend on who you are talking to and how strongly they feel. There are times when it is just appeal and get no response and that's that. Like many have said this is no democracy nor is it anywhere close. If a mod has an issue with something they can 9and sometimes do) moderate you and fail to justify upon request. The also, at times, moderate for things that do not fall into the tos. But you know what, no matter how bad you feel this is, it is their right. People come to this forum and stay on this forum by their own will.

You have every right to disagree with the mods but in the end what they say goes and that is just how it is. If you don't like it create your own forum, from hearing counts, this does not work well. So, in conclusion, whether right or not, the mods have every right to put you on moderation or completely ban you, and have every right to not give you the time of day when you ask for reasons.

That being said, as I have seen, the mods usually will respond and justify their actions. They have busy lives as do all of us, so it may take some time. But if anyone is looking for a democracy go elsewhere, this is not it. Thanks and have a great day.

Jeremy Ryan

03-01-2008, 07:17 PM

I can't help but notice the absence of answers from the only four people who can adequately address all of Steve's questions.

JohnG · 03-01-2008, 07:56 PM

Moderators can't provide any additional "opinions" about how to deal with conflict and conflict resolution on these -- or any online -- forums. Each person deals with such conflict differently, but keeping in mind that on SC (as in many other forums), these conflicts are not inherently personal until people make them so. We moderate/act upon issues when they present a problem or are against the ToS.

Two adults can respectfully disagree on any given topic, no?

John

jryan · 03-01-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgrohol

We moderate/act upon issues when they present a problem or are against the ToS.

Two adults can respectfully disagree on any given topic, no?

John

But essentially you are determining which issues have a problem. In essence a problem may present itself to you (or any mod) but not to anyone else and you (or any mod) can still moderate. Not saying this is wrong, you (or any mod) have every right, but I am just pointing out, John, that what presents a problem to one does not always to any others.

Please, do not consider this a personal attack I am just stating my opinion. This is not against you, I am commenting on moderators in general on this forum and most others. Yes, two adults can respectfully disagree but that does not mean their post will be honored. Regardless, this is how many forums work and they do not advertise as a democracy by any means, so you cannot expect them to work as such. The fact is that all the mods as well as many people here are personally good people.

The problem the mods have is that they are the "police". They have some things they have to follow and some wiggle room. In essence, however sometimes they will look like complete jerks and sometimes they will look really nice. Either way, what they do on their "job" has no effect on how they are as a person. I have heard a saying "you are not a real member of chat until you've quarreled with the mods". There is some truth to that, however you need to seperate these arguments and not hold them personally or take them personally because in all essence how someone is online has no inclination to how they are as a person "except online predators"!

Jeremy Ryan

JohnG · 03-02-2008, 03:42 PM

Small problems may be handled individually by a single mod, such as the prodigious use of profanity. Larger problems are handled by a consensus of the entire team.

It's simply not true that you have to "quarrel" with a mod to be a contributing and helpful member of this or any online community. The vast majority of members here at SC have never been contacted or have any "problems" with the team. Most of our efforts are (as they are in virtually every online community) directed at not more than a handful of members. There are many, many regulars here who've never even been PMed by a moderator (for a community issue).

J

Timezkware Tim · 03-02-2008, 07:12 PM

polo, this conundrum about moderators and posters disagreeing and how to handle it is really a moot point. Either policy is followed, or it's not. Most MBs work this way already.

In any bulletin-board/message board/forum, chat, or blog website, ground rules re: policy should be stated. Most of the time they are. In many cases, the basic protocol is no swearing or masked swearing, no flame wars or personal attacks, no spamming; etc. In many cases the house policy includes no political, religious, drug promotion related or sexual nature posts or threads. Most policies also simply state that those posts will be deleted.

Beyond the stated rules, (usually in a FAQ, Forum Rules, or Terms of Service section) as long as people post without breaking these rules, they should be able to express their opinions without intervention or censorship.

Any censored posters who are following the rules by the Web management (mods) makes the website a sham, and not a true bulletin board format.

If a mod disagrees with a poster who is following the rules, they can simply post their disagreement as if they were just another poster. However, if a poster breaks the rules, then progressive discipline should be applied, based on the severity of the post, and the relationship of the poster.

Example: If a 7 year poster with a great rep and 5,000 posts suddenly flames someone a few times one day, and they never do that, the post should be deleted, and a warning given. If a first time poster comes on and does this, they should be banned (log-in suspended) pending a short conversation. If they they still don't get it, ban 'em.

Moderating board is essentially managing people. There's no black and white answer. The only thing that is black and white is this: If you have a discussion site or blog with rules and policies, as long as posters abide by the policies, they should be able to post whatever they want if the site is to have any credibility.

Ultimately, if that site wants to exclude a certain type of post, they should simply add that to their list of policies and guidelines.

On another note...

Re: Your interest in web polls and rating systems:

Many MBs that don't enjoy millions of hits a month exist with a strong regular membership. Without taking anything away from the credibility and validity of their opinions, realize that the actual numbers of posters are small. Even if you have 1000 members, you are still small.

Fact: When you have a few dozen people answer a poll, the sample is so small, it's meaningless. No matter how much in your heart you want the results to say something, they won't. Really. As far as rating systems, the scores only reflect the opinions of the small number of people who play the rating game, so the results are also meaningless. In other words, it really doesn't reflect how MOST people really feel.

Polls work well if you are ESPN, and you are asking who will win the NL East, and 35,000 respondents choose the Mets over Atlanta. Rating systems are OK if you are Zagat or Consumer Reports and thousands of people are involved. When 14 people answer a poll, the 3 in. red colored bar graph looks really dramatic next to the blue and orange 1/2 in. bar graphs, but don't let that fool you; it's still 14 people.

SZ, you know I totally respect your opinion, and will forever be greatful for teaching me how to handle a polo mallet, but I think perusing answers in polls and ratings should wait until you get at least a few hundred respondents, and that won't be here at SC for a while. Then you will have a sample you can really look at. In the meantime, work on your no-look dribble; hellphish can show you a few tips, lol.

Tim

KSagal · 03-10-2008, 12:31 AM

Polo,

i have not answered your poll, as I did not find an answer that I thought represented my position. Because of that, I am asking that you post the results somewhere so we who have not joined can see.

Thanks...

polo_pro · 03-10-2008, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSagal

i have not answered your poll, as I did not find an answer that I thought represented my position. Because of that, I am asking that you post the results somewhere so we who have not joined can see.

Karl, I haven't answered the poll either. But when I click on the View Results link at the bottom of the options, it shows me how everyone else voted. Does it behave differently for you?

ps - I'll be happy to post the results here if this is the case. I'm not trying to keep any information out of the hands of anyone.

KSagal · 03-10-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polo_pro

Karl, I haven't answered the poll either. But when I click on the View Results link at the bottom of the options, it shows me how everyone else voted. Does it behave differently for you?

ps - I'll be happy to post the results here if this is the case. I'm not trying to keep any information out of the hands of anyone.

Sorry, I had not tried that button. I am not so interested in the names of who said what, but what the predominent feelings were...

I have difficulty with some of the semantics and phrasiology of the choices, not the effort or the concept. Good luck with it.

03-01-2008, 01:38 PM	#11
segsurfer Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Harrisonburg, VA Posts: 1,357	Polo_Pro, good to have you back buddy I think that the poll needs a write in category if that is possible. If I were faced with the issue mentioned in the poll, I would consult the terms of service to see where I could have possibly violated the terms of service; and/or just write a mod asking them specifically what I have done wrong, and specifically what I can do to rectify the situation. Yes the mod system isn't perfect, but every system has it's inherent flaws and SC is no different. disclaimer: This is just my personal opinion, you can take it or leave, it it's entirely up to you. -segsurfer __________________ Life is not a Roadrunner cartoon, and you are not the Roadrunner!. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

03-01-2008, 05:00 PM	#12
jryan Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Where Boris runs free and so do !!! Posts: 782	The mods.... I suppose this would all depend on who you are talking to and how strongly they feel. There are times when it is just appeal and get no response and that's that. Like many have said this is no democracy nor is it anywhere close. If a mod has an issue with something they can 9and sometimes do) moderate you and fail to justify upon request. The also, at times, moderate for things that do not fall into the tos. But you know what, no matter how bad you feel this is, it is their right. People come to this forum and stay on this forum by their own will. You have every right to disagree with the mods but in the end what they say goes and that is just how it is. If you don't like it create your own forum, from hearing counts, this does not work well. So, in conclusion, whether right or not, the mods have every right to put you on moderation or completely ban you, and have every right to not give you the time of day when you ask for reasons. That being said, as I have seen, the mods usually will respond and justify their actions. They have busy lives as do all of us, so it may take some time. But if anyone is looking for a democracy go elsewhere, this is not it. Thanks and have a great day. Jeremy Ryan __________________ I voted before it was cool!! - A wise young lad!

03-01-2008, 07:56 PM	#14
JohnG Uber Administrator Wise Segway Elder Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Greater Boston Posts: 6,996	Moderators can't provide any additional "opinions" about how to deal with conflict and conflict resolution on these -- or any online -- forums. Each person deals with such conflict differently, but keeping in mind that on SC (as in many other forums), these conflicts are not inherently personal until people make them so. We moderate/act upon issues when they present a problem or are against the ToS. Two adults can respectfully disagree on any given topic, no? John __________________ -- An original Segway employee, 2001-2005

03-02-2008, 03:42 PM	#16
JohnG Uber Administrator Wise Segway Elder Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Greater Boston Posts: 6,996	Small problems may be handled individually by a single mod, such as the prodigious use of profanity. Larger problems are handled by a consensus of the entire team. It's simply not true that you have to "quarrel" with a mod to be a contributing and helpful member of this or any online community. The vast majority of members here at SC have never been contacted or have any "problems" with the team. Most of our efforts are (as they are in virtually every online community) directed at not more than a handful of members. There are many, many regulars here who've never even been PMed by a moderator (for a community issue). J __________________ -- An original Segway employee, 2001-2005

03-02-2008, 07:12 PM	#17
Timezkware Tim Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 941	polo, this conundrum about moderators and posters disagreeing and how to handle it is really a moot point. Either policy is followed, or it's not. Most MBs work this way already. In any bulletin-board/message board/forum, chat, or blog website, ground rules re: policy should be stated. Most of the time they are. In many cases, the basic protocol is no swearing or masked swearing, no flame wars or personal attacks, no spamming; etc. In many cases the house policy includes no political, religious, drug promotion related or sexual nature posts or threads. Most policies also simply state that those posts will be deleted. Beyond the stated rules, (usually in a FAQ, Forum Rules, or Terms of Service section) as long as people post without breaking these rules, they should be able to express their opinions without intervention or censorship. Any censored posters who are following the rules by the Web management (mods) makes the website a sham, and not a true bulletin board format. If a mod disagrees with a poster who is following the rules, they can simply post their disagreement as if they were just another poster. However, if a poster breaks the rules, then progressive discipline should be applied, based on the severity of the post, and the relationship of the poster. Example: If a 7 year poster with a great rep and 5,000 posts suddenly flames someone a few times one day, and they never do that, the post should be deleted, and a warning given. If a first time poster comes on and does this, they should be banned (log-in suspended) pending a short conversation. If they they still don't get it, ban 'em. Moderating board is essentially managing people. There's no black and white answer. The only thing that is black and white is this: If you have a discussion site or blog with rules and policies, as long as posters abide by the policies, they should be able to post whatever they want if the site is to have any credibility. Ultimately, if that site wants to exclude a certain type of post, they should simply add that to their list of policies and guidelines. On another note... Re: Your interest in web polls and rating systems: Many MBs that don't enjoy millions of hits a month exist with a strong regular membership. Without taking anything away from the credibility and validity of their opinions, realize that the actual numbers of posters are small. Even if you have 1000 members, you are still small. Fact: When you have a few dozen people answer a poll, the sample is so small, it's meaningless. No matter how much in your heart you want the results to say something, they won't. Really. As far as rating systems, the scores only reflect the opinions of the small number of people who play the rating game, so the results are also meaningless. In other words, it really doesn't reflect how MOST people really feel. Polls work well if you are ESPN, and you are asking who will win the NL East, and 35,000 respondents choose the Mets over Atlanta. Rating systems are OK if you are Zagat or Consumer Reports and thousands of people are involved. When 14 people answer a poll, the 3 in. red colored bar graph looks really dramatic next to the blue and orange 1/2 in. bar graphs, but don't let that fool you; it's still 14 people. SZ, you know I totally respect your opinion, and will forever be greatful for teaching me how to handle a polo mallet, but I think perusing answers in polls and ratings should wait until you get at least a few hundred respondents, and that won't be here at SC for a while. Then you will have a sample you can really look at. In the meantime, work on your no-look dribble; hellphish can show you a few tips, lol. Tim Last edited by Timezkware Tim; 03-02-2008 at 07:43 PM..

03-01-2008, 07:17 PM	#13
Eric Payne Guest Posts: n/a	I can't help but notice the absence of answers from the only four people who can adequately address all of Steve's questions.

03-10-2008, 12:31 AM	#18
KSagal Glides a lot, talks more... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pelham, NH, USA. Posts: 10,356	Polo, i have not answered your poll, as I did not find an answer that I thought represented my position. Because of that, I am asking that you post the results somewhere so we who have not joined can see. Thanks... __________________ Karl Ian Sagal To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin) Bene factum melior bene dictum Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

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