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Old 09-02-2010, 08:00 PM   #11
Civicsman
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When you say what you said about a monument to Medal Of Honor recipients, and say that I would be opposed to it, you are telling a lie. KSagal
It's all there for the world to read. Who's misleading whom?
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There are tributes to Japanese Americans in many places, but Pearl Harbor would not be an appropriate one. KSagal
Note, Karl, that you placed no limits on that statement. You included all Japanese Americans.

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Surely, Karl, you mean that a memorial to Japanese military people would not be appropriate at Pearl Harbor, rather than a memorial to Americans of Japanese descent. A Freudian slip? After all, several Japanese American WWII units received the Congressional Gold Medal, and 22 individuals received the Congressional Medal of Honor. Surely, a monument to those units and individuals could legitimately (and morally) be placed anywhere in Honolulu. Civicsman
Thinking you could not possibly be referring to American citizens who happen to be Japanese, I asked for clarification. I specifically posed the question of a monument to Japanese American WWII vets and honorees.

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First point, no mistake. I said what I mean. KSagal
You chose to stick with what you originally said,"Japanese Americans", without limitation or clarification.

Now, after realizing the corner into which you painted yourself, you say, Hey! Wait a minute! I didn't say what I meant when I said I said what I mean!
It would be great if you would simply write precisely, or if you would clarify, when clarification is necessary, but you choose to do neither. Your choice.

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If the memorial is because they are WWII veterans, it does not matter what their lineage is
Are you saying here that a generic WWII vet memorial would be OK, even if included Japanese Americans, but that a memorial to WWII vets who are specifically Japanese Americans (such as the Congressional Medal of Honor awardees) would NOT be appropriate.

If it's the latter, why not?
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:44 PM   #12
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You are talking in circles. My message is clear to all but the most purposefully obtuse.
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:27 PM   #13
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My message is clear.
For me personally, your meaning has never been in doubt. Just trying to clarify things for the "uninformed" as you refer to them.

So, then, back on topic. Why are so many people willing to provide recruiting propaganda for the Taliban and Al Qaeda by virulently opposing an Islamic facility in NY City?

This is an especially good question, since the overwhelmingly vast majority of those yada yada talking head opinions are not only from outside NY City, but even from outside of New York state.

Interestingly, a poll in June 2010 showed that Manhattanites actually supported the community center by 46 to 36%, with the rest undecided. One would think that Manhattanites would be opposed, if anyone, but that was not the case. Of course, with Islamophobes like Pamela Geller riding her blog like Paul Revere (well, a bizarro racist Paul Revere maybe) and screaming, THE MUSLIMS ARE COMING, those numbers might have changed.

The same pole also showed that people nationwide who had a favorable view of Islam tended to support the facility, while those with an unfavorable opinion of Islam opposed it overwhelmingly. Isn't THAT curious?
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:38 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Civicsman View Post
You would oppose a monument at Pearl Harbor for Americans who are WWII veterans and were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, simply because they are of Japanese descent.
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Originally Posted by Civicsman View Post
It's all there for the world to read. Who's misleading whom?
YOU are misleading everyone each time you try to debate Karl. You put words in his mouth too often. He didn't say any of what you said. I don't agree with much of what he says, but it's based on what he actually says, not what you want everyone to believe he said.

You are about as bad a debater as I've ever heard. You warn us all of eminent doom from terrorists if we don't allow the center. It's every bit as ridiculous as those warning us of doom if the center is built. My personal belief is that any religious group has the constitutional right to gather and worship and build their centers, chuches, mosques, temples or sweat lodges wherever they want (and have the proper building permits). Americans also have the right to voice their objections, but they don't have the right to prevent the constitutional rights of others.

I don't want you on my side, Civicsman. You twist what other people say and you coerce through fear. You give religious freedom a bad name.

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Old 09-03-2010, 08:27 AM   #15
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I couldn’t agree with you more eJM. Civicsman and Karl both play the same game. They nitpick at each other’s posts and everyone else’s simply to increase the post count under their name. Watching two narcissistic jerks go at it day after day has led me to place them both on ignore. It’s too bad the ignore feature doesn’t keep their names off my view because I’m sick of seeing them at all. This post should fire up both their egos enough to join forces and target me for a while.
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:03 AM   #16
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YOU are misleading everyone each time you try to debate Karl. You put words in his mouth too often. He didn't say any of what you said. I don't agree with much of what he says, but it's based on what he actually says, not what you want everyone to believe he said.

You are about as bad a debater as I've ever heard. You warn us all of eminent doom from terrorists if we don't allow the center. It's every bit as ridiculous as those warning us of doom if the center is built.
On a personal basis, you seem to have a balanced view on Park 51, EJM. If others were as tolerant, there would be no problems, right?

However, that's not always the case, and if you read other recent threads in this General Discussion area you will find the stink of prejudice.

With regards to KSagal, I offer the opportunity to clarify his point of view at almost every turn. I regularly re-post his quotes, specifically so readers can see exactly what was said. When I post an interpretation of a comment, and sometimes my interpretation has a point to make, he has the opportunity to come back and clarify his position. More typically, he prefers to complain about my post and/or call me a liar, but chooses not to clarify his position. In this thread, I believe he has a very good reason for that obfuscation, but readers are going to have to figure out that reason for themselves.

Speaking of "putting words in [one's] mouth", where do you find my warning of "eminent doom from terrorists"? My original post warned that our enemies are using the persecution of Muslims (both imagined and real) to their advantage for recruiting Jihadis. I included quotes from two sources. Providing recruitment aid to the enemy does not equal "doom", imminent or not. Does it?

Further, my posts in this string have gone far beyond Park 51. I have provided information that shows persecution and hate crimes across the USA. Whereas I suspect my posts are not generating the "fear" that you claim. targets of that intolerance ARE experiencing fear. Religious and racial bigotry is not a pleasant subject. I think we are seeing FAR too much of it today.

I found mgalliani's allegation that I'm working on enhancing my post count pretty funny. I don't find post count to be an ahievement of consequence. His perspective dovetailed with the comment I got recently from KSagal along with a positive reputation point. He said he was giving me "pity points", and said that it must "Frost [my] cake" that he has so many more rep points than I do. Right.

I hereby ask the admins to set my post count to 5 and clear my rep points, if that is possible. I thank those who have given me positive rep points. The sentiment behind rep points is welcome, but neither points nor post count are of the slightest importance to me.
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:00 PM   #17
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I apologize to those reading the immature snarking back and forth between Civicsman and me. I often think I should be above responding to his comments, but find myself too weak too often to not try to defend myself. In doing so, I prove my own deficiencies.

One point on the comments made on private reputation points. I thought it was generally considered off limits to post on the public forum what is presented in private messages. I believe others have been chastised for doing just that.
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:31 PM   #18
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I thought it was generally considered off limits to post on the public forum what is presented in private messages.
What I posted was not from a PM. It was from your comments regarding rep points. Nothing in the TOS says that referring to rep points comments is a violation of privacy.

Still, you seem sensitive to the issue, so I will edit out your comments, if the software will let me. If I can't do it, forum admins, please remove the references. Two posts back, second paragraph from the end.
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Edit: Well, I can't seem to edit anything earlier than this post. I'm guessing that this is because Karl reported my post to the mods. Maybe I'll be "moderated" and disappear for a while. That would certainly be an effective way to shut me up. Maybe I'll get the death sentence. If so, see you in the next life. Note, however, I accurately reported what was in the rep points comment, and some people claim that one is always personally accountable for one's actions.

Last edited by Civicsman; 09-03-2010 at 06:51 PM..
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Old 09-03-2010, 07:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Civicsman View Post
What I posted was not from a PM. It was from your comments regarding rep points. Nothing in the TOS says that referring to rep points comments is a violation of privacy.

Still, you seem sensitive to the issue, so I will edit out your comments, if the software will let me. If I can't do it, forum admins, please remove the references. Two posts back, second paragraph from the end.
---------------------------------------------

Edit: Well, I can't seem to edit anything earlier than this post. I'm guessing that this is because Karl reported my post to the mods. Maybe I'll be "moderated" and disappear for a while. That would certainly be an effective way to shut me up. Maybe I'll get the death sentence. If so, see you in the next life. Note, however, I accurately reported what was in the rep points comment, and some people claim that one is always personally accountable for one's actions.
My how inflated an opinion of yourself you seem to have. I have not reported you to the moderators on this issue. I see no need to.

Have a nice day.
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Old 09-03-2010, 08:19 PM   #20
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I have not reported you to the moderators on this issue. I see no need to.
Ok, then I was wrong. Strangely, I can edit my most recent post, but nothing earlier. I have not see this happen before. I made an assumption and I assumed wrong.
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