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Old 02-13-2007, 02:15 AM   #11
RAY-NER
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Thanks Karl for your insight..... I would point out that by looking at the sequence of things in slow motion, (dropping off a curb as an example), there being no weight on the floor pads, the i2 would most likely fall away and return you to the floor pads in less than a second in time. Therefore, the shutdown should take that situation into account and retain normal wheel speed, continuing your travel. However, if you were thrown from the vehicle as I was, there is no longer any pressure on the floor pads and the switches below the pads return to the "no weight" condition. In that scenario, the shutdown should occur in about two seconds but not less than one second. I leave it to the Bedford NH scientists to make the timing change based upon their good judgement.......In the loading process, I should have indicated that I first start the i2, stand on it, make a 360 degree turn and then step off before attempting to guide it up the ramp under its own power. In that mode, I guide it up the ramp until the tires are centered on the edge of the trunk's frame, shutting power down and then pushing it slightly forward until it rolls over the lip and down (about 12 inches) into the trunk of the CRX-2. In doing it this way, I also have lowered the stick to its lowest level and restored the locking mechanism. Later, upon removing the i2 from the trunk, I then have to remove the hex head screw and return the stick to its original position. Under this scenario, there is no way that the i2 is ever going to enter the trunk at 12 MPH! The i2 does require the reversed motor situation as previously stated in order to allow it to move up the ramp on its own power with me standing behind it while on the way up. RAY-NER

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Old 02-13-2007, 12:12 PM   #12
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If the segway is traveling forward for two seconds with no rider, it shuts down anyway.
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Old 02-13-2007, 02:47 PM   #13
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RAY-NER,

I would have to see your method of loading to understand, but am happy to take you at your word...

However, you likely understand the method that I explained as well. If the factory were to use the software change that you suggested, where the input of lean were to derive a reverse action from the wheel motors, then my method of using loading ramps, and your software would indeed result in an unsafe situation...

If the factory were to implement any particular person's plan, they have to look out for all the other people who might use the machine a different way, and cause a problem...

Because of this, they necessarily have to program to the worst case instead of the best case.

I believe that you may well be able to safely use a reverse drive on the motors and safely load your machine into your trunk, but that does not mean that others will use it as safely. And I have been using my loading method without mishap for several years now. (I use the same method on my E-167, but because it has power assist, the effort is different)

Anyway, Good topic, and some fresh ideas. Thanks for jumping into the stew!
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Old 02-13-2007, 03:26 PM   #14
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Karl,
As usual, many sides of any issue come to the fore as thinking people become stimulated by the germ of an idea. In the final analysis, implementation is not acomplished by the originator of the idea. I'm only a single consumer out of thousands! The final word has to come from SEGWAY, INC., who make all final decisions about their products. I hope they will at least consider it for those of us who have i2's and loading ramps. The stew (as you put it) has in some way become thickened because of this topic. By the way, Groucho Marx once said something like "I would not join any club that would have me as a member". What are the qualifications needed to join your organization? (I hope the annual dues are reasonable!).
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Old 02-13-2007, 03:41 PM   #15
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RAY-NER,
What if they changed the way power assist engages just a bit...you step off your glide and turn it completely off. Then tilt it backwards until the handles are nearly touching ground and turn it on in PA mode...if they could make it use the PA from the starting angle rather than perpendicular to ground, it would load easily, right?

BTW, having a series 1 I don't know your limitations. If you turn the glide on at, say a 80° angle, must you lean it forward past 90° in order to make it begin rolling forward?

+B
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Old 02-13-2007, 04:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAY-NER View Post
Karl,
As usual, many sides of any issue come to the fore as thinking people become stimulated by the germ of an idea. In the final analysis, implementation is not acomplished by the originator of the idea. I'm only a single consumer out of thousands! The final word has to come from SEGWAY, INC., who make all final decisions about their products. I hope they will at least consider it for those of us who have i2's and loading ramps. The stew (as you put it) has in some way become thickened because of this topic. By the way, Groucho Marx once said something like "I would not join any club that would have me as a member". What are the qualifications needed to join your organization? (I hope the annual dues are reasonable!).
RAY-NER

The dues are a very reasonable $15.00 a year. Better than that, the first year (For purchasers of new segways) is on the house! You don't get to pay till the 2nd year...

Go to www.SegAmerica.org and follow the prompts. Looking forward to having you on board!
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Old 02-13-2007, 04:16 PM   #17
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Bill,

I was not aware of the PA feature in the earlier SEGWAY models. The i2 version lacks this feature entirely. It is probably a good idea for SEGWAY to consider adding the original PA feature to the i2. That would make it universal for all models. I can't imagine why they deleted it in the i2 version.
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Old 02-13-2007, 04:59 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAY-NER View Post
Bill,

I was not aware of the PA feature in the earlier SEGWAY models. The i2 version lacks this feature entirely. It is probably a good idea for SEGWAY to consider adding the original PA feature to the i2. That would make it universal for all models. I can't imagine why they deleted it in the i2 version.
All wiring and controls have been eliminated from the CS in the i2. There's no way to safely control PA without the handheld grip that the gen 1's have. Once you feel the power and torque of the gen 1's PA, you'll see why you need to have absolute control to be safe. Maybe eventually the info key can be adapted for PA when the gen 3 comes out.

I'm no expert on Segways, I just read a lot of stuff here. There's also the issue of not being able to use the Segseat on gen 2s. Luckily, both generations are excellent for polo use.

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Old 02-13-2007, 05:04 PM   #19
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I can't imagine why its gone, It makes going up steps really simple. I think they must have just wanted to get rid of the thumb wheel entirely.
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillPaxton View Post
RAY-NER,
What if they changed the way power assist engages just a bit...you step off your glide and turn it completely off. Then tilt it backwards until the handles are nearly touching ground and turn it on in PA mode...if they could make it use the PA from the starting angle rather than perpendicular to ground, it would load easily, right?

BTW, having a series 1 I don't know your limitations. If you turn the glide on at, say a 80° angle, must you lean it forward past 90° in order to make it begin rolling forward?

+B

There is a balance sensor in the i2. It will not go into balance mode till it is level and the leansteer frame is centered. There are LEDs that indicate level and straight.

It will not go into riderless balance mode till it has been in balance mode and then the rider detects all go light. Riderless balance mode is the mode most people are in by default when trying to load an i2.

At least, that is how it is for me and mine...


There is and has been this evolution toward riderless balance mode comming for some time now, in my opinion...

When the 167 series first came out, the standard for stairs and ramps was the PA mode. There were also complaints... (NO! on this forum? Really?!) yes, there were plenty... It was too slow, it was too fast, it was too sensitive, it was not sensitive enough, etc...

Over the years, with at least one software update, the characteristics of the way the machines acted when no rider was on has been modified...

I may not be the best at explaining this, because I have an E-167 and the vast majority are 1-167s, but ....

Anyway, in the beginning, the machine would not easily stay in balance mode (Riderless balance mode) after you dismounted... If you moved it just a few feet, if you gave it no inputs for 60 seconds, and other factors would have the machine shut off. (When no rider detects were depressed)

As the software was tweeked, some of those timings were modified, and the new standard for the keys was changed, regarding when the machine times out...

Anyone who does some research will find threads that detail how the prevailing preference became that people would leave the machine in balance mode, and climb stairs, or decend stairs by movements fore and aft of the entire Control shaft, instead of the steering collar. I believe this was because when climbing stairs, the larger surface and easier hand hold of not having to twist your wrist to help pull the machine up was an advantage.

Again, I am not the best at the search feature of this forum, but I do recall several threads that indicated that even with PA on the machine, and long before gen 2, people were using the balance mode to climb. (Exactly as the gen 2 works now...)

I climb stairs in riderless balance mode on both my gen 1 and gen 2 machines. I decend stairs the same way.

The only place that there is a problem with this, as I see it, is loading a car. Then the hatch/trunk lid gets in the way of the handlebars...

Now, as for why it is not there, I can only imagine it is because the device that it is attached to is no longer there.

If Power Assist, of the sort on gen 1 was put onto gen 2, then moving the leansteer to the right or left would make the machine move forward or back.

One other point, there is no steering while in Power Assist. A person steers by forcing the machine while using the handlebars.

If you were to try to do that with a gen 2, as I said in the previous paragraph, once removed, you would affect the fore and aft movements....

Lots to consider.

Good discussion.
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