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Old 04-04-2009, 07:32 AM   #21
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Well said Paula465 and spot-on!

Rep. points for you.
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Old 04-04-2009, 02:36 PM   #22
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Paula -- I've probably got even more forum experience than you, but I couldn't have said it half as well. All I can add is that all of my experience firmly confirms what you say.

The single best tool I've found, on forums that implement it, is to put serious offenders into a mode where THEY see what they post, but nobody else does. They don't realize nobody else does, so they don't go out and create a new identity to cause trouble.

Every time, they post for a while, get no reaction, and go away.

And yes, after all this time, I do get sucked in to responding sometimes when I shouldn't.
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:06 PM   #23
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What sort of user brings up dead threads to make a point? attention seeker?

I kid, I kid. I am totally kidding. I just saw a little humor in that. thanks for the insightful words.
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Old 04-04-2009, 05:33 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paula465 View Post
I have a great deal of forum experience, from both the user and moderator side of the fence. Most of the forums I participate in are gaming forums and the ages of the users run the gamut from teens to us oldsters.

What I have found is maturity has no age restrictions. I've seen mature behavior from the very young and the most childish behavior from those who are old enough to know better.

After all this time, what I have concluded is that there are attention seekers among us. They don't care what sort of attention they received and most have discovered that negative attention is about all they are going to get so they go after it with a passion. It does not matter how outrageous their stance or comments. They do not make them because they have worth. They make them for the attention they will receive. Deny them the attention, they go away.

I will be the first to admit that this is very difficult to do. You want to respond, you want to set the record straight. However, if the attention seekers on this forum are like the others, no amount of argument, salient facts or truth will deter them. They are after none of that, only the attention you are giving them by responding.

The unmade bed will not unmake itself once you have made it. The parachute will not unpack itself once you have packed it. The attention seeker will continue on no matter what you do.

Most forum participants will recognize these people and give what they say no credence at all, especially if every time they post, it is with the same negativity and lack of factual information.

I do not counsel someone's actions on such situations. What you have to ask yourself is how much do you value your time and how much of it you have to spend wasting it upon an individual who is only after the time you spend on them?

Your words are wise counsel. I still have a problem, however.

If a person says a thing that is simply wrong, do we not have a need to make correction? So often in our society, we see behavior which is unexcuseable, yet many people walk on by, and do not want to get involved. Isn't this like the stranded motorist, on busy highway, where everyone just turns their head, and goes on their way?

I see that some are just out to cause trouble. I see that some are here only to be contrarians. This is clear, and here you make a good point. But if a person were to offer up falsehoods as fact, does that not require a correction?

I like Bob's plan where a person is allowed to feel that they have added their snipe to the general discourse, but it is actually not available to be viewed by the general public, but that offers up another set of censorship issues as well. Would that not lend itself to a person to be segregated from a forum for an unpopular view, that may be valid to a small number? Not all contrary opinions are valueless, even if in a small minority.

I for one abhor the presentation of clear falsehoods as fact, and take the often futile task of correcting the record. I do not feel that the lie, left unanswered, is an appropriate course of action, even if it may be the more accepted one.

One may say that this shows a lack of maturity to accept that which I cannot prevail at. While this may be true, I would rather tilt at windmills than to let the scoundrel own the moment.
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Old 04-04-2009, 06:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
Your words are wise counsel. I still have a problem, however.

If a person says a thing that is simply wrong, do we not have a need to make correction? So often in our society, we see behavior which is unexcuseable, yet many people walk on by, and do not want to get involved. Isn't this like the stranded motorist, on busy highway, where everyone just turns their head, and goes on their way?

I see that some are just out to cause trouble. I see that some are here only to be contrarians. This is clear, and here you make a good point. But if a person were to offer up falsehoods as fact, does that not require a correction?
Disagreeing with someone -- and being disagreed with -- is part of a healthy discussion, and makes a board more interesting.

Flaming, insults, implying that someone is an idiot just because they happen to be (in your view at least) wrong, are not healthy.

The former is to be encouraged; the latter, discouraged. And social feedback plays a legitimate role in both encouragement and discouragement -- for those who are healthy participants.

There are those, however, who are either plainly there to cause trouble, or whom prove resistant to civility. Spammers would be an example in the former category. People who result to name-calling, as a pattern (not an occasional slip) would be in the latter.

It is not constructive to engage these latter groups in a debate. A better strategy is to engage the broader audience, state the facts, and pretend the original message and poster have been deleted.

Quote:
Income tax is not a voluntary tax. While you may think of it as a voluntary choice, the choice is between paying and going to prison. See (link to news article about someone going to prison).
Note that I didn't say someone said it was voluntary; I didn't respond to another debater; I addressed it to the audience.

Try to be accurate, supported by evidence, and comprehensive enough you don't need to come back and post again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
I like Bob's plan where a person is allowed to feel that they have added their snipe to the general discourse, but it is actually not available to be viewed by the general public, but that offers up another set of censorship issues as well. Would that not lend itself to a person to be segregated from a forum for an unpopular view, that may be valid to a small number? Not all contrary opinions are valueless, even if in a small minority.
I generally come down against censorship. I often find myself in disagreement with others, including forum moderators over the issue.

But it should NOT be a matter of censoring disagreement or error or difference of opinion. It is perfectly possible to be politely wrong!

It is a matter of behavior. If I were to call you an immature idiot who always thinks he's right (drawing on your example just to avoid exposing you to new made-up criticisms), that is a behavior unrelated to any opinions or thoughts about anything relevant to Segways.

It's a big gun -- and something that doesn't work against actual participants in the community -- it is removal from the online society. It needs to be treated with the respect due all metaphorical guns.

I suppose it would be possible to do that for individual offensive posts, but it would require a lot more work by the moderator (equivalent to putting him on moderation), and would be ineffective at changing behavior.

I offered it not as a solution to mere incivility, but rather as supporting evidence to Paula's point about attention-seeking behavior. If others don't see the response, they won't respond -- and without responses, they won't stay around.

That's actually probably true of the rest of us, as well. Even if my motivation is as I think it is -- to share with others and contribute to our society -- if I get no response, I have no way of knowing I'm actually being read, let alone meeting my goal. I'd probably stop posting after a while, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
I for one abhor the presentation of clear falsehoods as fact, and take the often futile task of correcting the record. I do not feel that the lie, left unanswered, is an appropriate course of action, even if it may be the more accepted one.

One may say that this shows a lack of maturity to accept that which I cannot prevail at. While this may be true, I would rather tilt at windmills than to let the scoundrel own the moment.
One has to consider the harm being done. Sometimes, extending the argument does more harm (and gives more exposure and apparent legitimacy to the lie) than ignoring it.

If someone came on here, and started claiming that the Nazis never killed a single Jew -- an egregious lie or enormous fantasy -- what purpose would be served by responding? They're going to be dismissed as loons anyway by anyone worth discussing it with. But if they started drumming up supporters for some nefarious scheme, then it might be worth making it plain that they are not unopposed.
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Old 04-04-2009, 06:14 PM   #26
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I do believe if a falsehood is offered, it does behoove us to post the correct information. This was not the gist of my response.

What I was addressing was once the correction has been made, if the falsehood was offered up by an attention seeker, they will not let your contraction of their post lie, but will re-post. At this point, it does no good to continue to try to persuade or refute what this person has posted.

However, I have found that it is our nature to continue to press our point, which will continue to feed the need for attention of this particular type of poster. This is the point where I think all should just walk away.

If the truth has been posted, it does not require affirmation over and over again and if no one responds to the attention-seekers refutation the truth will continue to be visible (most times, not always of course; there are always exceptions).

What I have found in the continuation of the back and forth exchange is the truth ends up getting buried under the weight of a string of posts which will continue on for pages as the attention seeker will not cease his (or her) quest for that which he craves.

EDIT: As Bob posted while I was crafting my response, I will add this. I enjoy healthy discourse. We are individuals and we have different viewpoints and different ways of expressing ourselves and I would never suggest that this sort of interchange should not take place. It is how we learn.

I may have misunderstood your orginal post and if so, I do apologize. My response was directed at those topics and/or posters who have no intention of holding an intelligent discussion, but merely wish to continue to engage someone in a debate for the satisfaction that it gives them because they are gaining your attention.

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Old 04-04-2009, 09:23 PM   #27
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EDIT: As Bob posted while I was crafting my response, I will add this. I enjoy healthy discourse. We are individuals and we have different viewpoints and different ways of expressing ourselves and I would never suggest that this sort of interchange should not take place. It is how we learn.
Indeed - even if one is entirely right, and another entirely wrong (as may often be found in math or physics), there is much to be learned from the exchange -- from how to explain a concept clearly, to the difficulties that others have in grasping a concept.

A healthy environment is one where it is safe to be wrong. I don't mean the wrong idea won't be met with correction, but rather that you won't be attacked as a person for being wrong -- but encouraged to learn, and to ask more questions, or try out more ideas.

I'm glad you've joined us, Paula. I look forward to being challenged by you!
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Old 04-04-2009, 10:24 PM   #28
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Bob and I seem to agree on far more than we disagree on, yet we often come to those conclusions from different angles, and surely employ differing verbal tools.

The totally egregious lie, like the Nazis did not kill anyone, is so over the top that even dense folk like me see little need to respond. It is the more subtle lie, the innuendo, the falsehood dressed up to appear believable that we have a duty to dispel...

What about the person whom is civil, but not treated well by the moderators for other reasons.

What about the person who usually offers a great deal, but sometimes has difficulty not taking the bait, and maybe goes less than civil...

So often, in our society, we allow boorish behavior to go unanswered. I believe this is a major scourge of our modern world, in that we become cowed into not getting into a situation just because it is the right thing to do. I know it is easier to look the other way. I know it is easier to let this forum and others to self correct by ignoring the members who are here not to contribute, but to take away.

I believe that there are no nonredeemable soles. I believe that some like to agitate, for the purpose of agitation, but even these can be educated, and can be lifted from this lowly pursuit. Even if they cannot be dissuaded, they need not go unchallenged.

Look at it this way. A poster makes a marginally believable post that is false, but not well known either way. It goes unchallenged, because those who know, understand it is false, and no one else cares... I believe the record needs to be set straight. If it deteriorates from there, I may give up too late, but still think the battle was worthy.

How about politics? How often have we seen unreasonable behavior addressed to one, that would not be addressed toward another, because of a political or religious stand? It is not reasonable to say that there is not a lot of hate and bigotry out there, and to feel that person 1 saying a thing gets the same reaction as person 2 is just not so. Most of us have both been on the side who prejudges situations, as well as having been prejudged. Does this mean we should not respond?

I believe that much of the problems in internet forums lies in the fact that there are lots of paper tigers out there. (We used to call them telephone tigers). So many are not whom they pretend to be on the internet, that it is hard to fight the phantoms. This is the reason that some screen names are so easy to figure out, and while I may choose anonymity, or the need to hide behind it, I do understand it. (I and my family were threatened because of my posts on this very forum.) Still, I am who I am, and am not easily convinced to allow cowards, scoundrels, or boors to own the day.

Again, I understand that my route is not that chosen by all of good character. I know many good people who would not make the same choices as I. I do not begrudge them their tools, as I hope they do not begrudge me mine... As for the troglodytes, I do not care what they think.
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Old 04-05-2009, 02:28 AM   #29
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Quote:
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I believe that much of the problems in internet forums lies in the fact that there are lots of paper tigers out there. (We used to call them telephone tigers). So many are not whom they pretend to be on the internet, that it is hard to fight the phantoms. This is the reason that some screen names are so easy to figure out, and while I may choose anonymity, or the need to hide behind it, I do understand it. (I and my family were threatened because of my posts on this very forum.) Still, I am who I am, and am not easily convinced to allow cowards, scoundrels, or boors to own the day.
I think you meant to say "while I may not choose anonymity"?

Because both of us are out here, in public, being who we are.

I do take certain precautions, mostly about some things I don't post or say online. You won't find my current email addresses online in very many places. I won't even say what I know about you -- my policy is to be more careful about other's information than my own.
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:46 AM   #30
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...
I believe that much of the problems in internet forums lies in the fact that there are lots of paper tigers out there. (We used to call them telephone tigers). So many are not whom they pretend to be on the internet, that it is hard to fight the phantoms. This is the reason that some screen names are so easy to figure out, and while I may choose anonymity, or the need to hide behind it, I do understand it. (I and my family were threatened because of my posts on this very forum.) Still, I am who I am, and am not easily convinced to allow cowards, scoundrels, or boors to own the day...

I am sure I typed 'while I may not choose anonymity' but it seems the posted words and my thoughts did not exactly match up...

I have had posts changed by moderators in the past, but I suspect this is just some sort of a typo, or one of those phantom changes that happen from time to time when posting from this format to that...
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