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Old 02-12-2008, 01:19 PM   #11
KSagal
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Oh yea, that vast right wing conspiracy. I forgot about them...
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Old 02-12-2008, 01:28 PM   #12
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... Nothing like throwing out a boogyman out there to get everyone up in arms. <sigh>
Pam
I kinda think there might be about 2800 families who are up in arms about a boogyman from about six-and-a-half years ago. But of course that's like the moon landings -- probably just done on a Hollywood set.


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Old 02-12-2008, 01:38 PM   #13
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I kinda think there might be about 2800 families who are up in arms about a boogyman from about six-and-a-half years ago.
And rightfully so!

Us going into Afghanistan to catch Osama bin Laden was a pretty darn good idea. We swept in, ran him into cave and had him on the run. Awesome job really . . . right up to the point where the President got distracted into thinking a push into Iraq was a good idea. As it turns out, that was a horrible idea and we let OBL slip through our fingers.

Iraq was contained. Dangerous to be sure. Something to keep an eye on to be sure, but it WAS contained. Now it's not.

Further, the one nation from which the vast majority of the actual 911 terrorists came from and were being financed from still hasn't been held accountable, mostly due to ties bought and paid for at the turn of the last century with the formation of ARAMCO.

So, the whole situation is pretty far out of whack.
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Old 02-12-2008, 01:39 PM   #14
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Do I see the liberals racing to provide it??? Not a chance in Hell!!!!
Did I miss something? Can you point to one Armed Forces appropriations bill that has been blocked by "the liberals" in the past eight years? What exactly has the Bush administration asked for that has been denied by the rubber stamp Congress?

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Old 02-12-2008, 02:05 PM   #15
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Did I miss something? Can you point to one Armed Forces appropriations bill that has been blocked by "the liberals" in the past eight years? What exactly has the Bush administration asked for that has been denied by the rubber stamp Congress?

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You are correct, the liberals have approved everything that has come their way! This is most likely because they know that if they cut the budget uneccessary spending will not stop, but the troops armor will. I have heard stories from soldiers who fought in the war of the type of crap they spend money on. One soldier I knew spent half his tour building a tower in the middle of nowhere only to spend the other half tearing it down! But this was at the beginning, the same time many troops had to recieve body armor for christmas because the government could not afford adequate armor for everyone!

It's sad but true. The liberals, if they cut the budget, would see troops improperly armed and the same uneccessary spending going on! They can allocate funds, but not allocate piece by piece where every dollar goes. So they just sit back and wait. Wait til' the Bush regime falls in January of next year! Osama Bin Laden attacked our country, of this we are sure. Saddam Hussein never attacked our country and we have not found hard evidence that he was a threat to our country! We had speculative evidence before the war, and that proved to be false, some may even suggest fraudulent but we will never know.

The fact is that Saddam was a very very bad man. This is undeniable. He also posed a direct threat to President Bush. He tried to kill his father and I wouldn't put it past him to try to kill him. In fact, I'd be willing to bet he had plans to assasinate GWB! But hire more secret service, have them at every door, have them surrounding you so not even the thinnest of bullets can get through. Don't put thousands of families one member short every christmas! And do not tell me you are cracking down on national security when you all but abandoned the only terrorist that has ever attcked us. Osama is still a threat, he is in hiding, but will most likely emerge one day!

When this comes, I hope we have the leadership to stop the threat rather than create diversions. With 1/10 of the money we spent in Iraq Osama could have been caught by now! But he is not and there really isn't a big effort to get him. There are times when our armed forces need to go to combat, of this I am sure. Afghanistan was one of those times, but the mission was never completed. Iraq is not one of those times and I doubt that the mission could ever be possibly completed. What was the reason we went in? To find WMD's and when that failed the reason changed. Take a good look at the picture. Our objective was never to liberate the people, there are other places that need that far more than Iraq. Please, please, vote this year it could make or break our whole nation! Every empire must fall!


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Old 02-12-2008, 11:55 PM   #16
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I do agree that military alone is never enough. The military is a bulldozer. It is needed to clean out the debris of the old dictatorial regimes, and even to remove the smaller bulldozers on that site. Then the building can begin.
Afganistan, good call on the bulldozer. Iraq, not so good.

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World history if full of people with pitchforks and shovels taking control from those with guns. Go back far enough, and it was pitchforks and shovels against swords and horses. It does not matter. Until and unless this grass roots effort happens, there will not be success.
I do not think we should expect at this time, or maybe in our lifetimes that the majority of people in the middle-east are going to rise up for self determination. Sure some want it but a lot prefer living under some type of Islamic law.

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I see the big difference between the US using it's military and the examples of French in Indochina (Viet Nam and the area) and the USSR in Afganistan, is that the U.S. wants to spread Democracy, and build trading partners, not expansionism. This is our motivation. In the other examples, expansionism was the goal.
You may see a difference but many people in an occupied country may not. Even a person who may be after some of the things we are promoting have to get over the fact a foreign county is occupying their homeland. This can be difficult, especially when there are language barriers, cultural barriers etc.

In discussing what it is we are doing for the Iraqi people, I think it is worth considering exactly why we are there. Are we there defending their rights? It is not why we went in. We went in because of the grave threat Saddam posed. Now we have changed the story. Could it be we are simply there because the current administration arrogantly thought that we could go in a take out a dictator and establish Iraq as a stable democracy? Which would of course spread to the rest of the Middle East? This looks to have failed and all we have to fall back on is our supporting democracy and freedom. Noble causes for sure and ones that I support but let’s no fool ourselves, we are there for self interest.

So many people thought that the Vietnam war had something to do with the Cold War, when it turns out it did not. We also think of it as our effort to defend democracy from communism when the story is more complicated and in reality much different than that. In the end, we did not understand either our allies or our enemy in Vietnam. I do not seem much difference in Iraq.


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I do believe that a free people will always be a more productive and happy people. I am not alone.
I agree. But we cannot make foreign countries or societies functional. We can foster it but at some point it needs to work on its own. I think this is particularly difficult in areas of great conflict such as Iraq.


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I am reminded of the simple fact that you cannot get anything clean, without making something else dirty. I don't care if you are washing your car, or the floor, or overthrowing some dictator.
We should have learned long ago that overthrowing dictators does not often work. Overthrowing any government is bound to have a completely uncontrollable outcome.

Didn't we start decades of problems in the Middle East by overthrowing a democratically elected government and putting in a dictator (Iran)?

Last edited by driley; 02-13-2008 at 12:22 AM.. Reason: Typos
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