Back to Canton, Texas

Rolacoy · 03-10-2013, 11:10 PM

Two years ago I took our two Segways to The Canton Texas Trade days and security gave me quite a bit of trouble. My brother-in-law who is not handicapped rode with me quite a bit, but not on city property. About half of the area on which the trade days are operated is owned by private citizens who gave us no trouble. Below I have inserted a link to my post at that time. In short the City of Canton, Texas does not allow Segways on city property.

http://forums.segwaychat.org/showthread.php?t=25826

Below is a link to their website:

http://www.cantontradedays.com/

Several of our family members plan to attend again this year, 12 to 15 of us. I plan to take our Segways and ride them. In the "packet" that they mailed to us along with our tickets is a "First Monday Policies & Procedures" under "Traffic and Parking" it states,

"Only motorized scooters manufactured specifically for the handicapped and of a type approved by the management are allowed. Must be 18 years of age with a valid drivers license or have proof of handicap to operate a handicap scooter. Only one person per scooter allowed."

Are they voilating ADA laws and how? I need suggestions as to how I should handle this. Also if anyone is in the area with a Segway I would appreciate the company.

Lily Kerns · 03-10-2013, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolacoy

Two years ago I took our two Segways to The Canton Texas Trade days and security gave me quite a bit of trouble. My brother-in-law who is not handicapped rode with me quite a bit, but not on city property. About half of the area on which the trade days are operated is owned by private citizens who gave us no trouble. Below I have inserted a link to my post at that time. In short the City of Canton, Texas does not allow Segways on city property.

http://forums.segwaychat.org/showthread.php?t=25826

Below is a link to their website:

http://www.cantontradedays.com/

Several of our family members plan to attend again this year, 12 to 15 of us. I plan to take our Segways and ride them. In the "packet" that they mailed to us along with our tickets is a "First Monday Policies & Procedures" under "Traffic and Parking" it states,

"Only motorized scooters manufactured specifically for the handicapped and of a type approved by the management are allowed. Must be 18 years of age with a valid drivers license or have proof of handicap to operate a handicap scooter. Only one person per scooter allowed."

Are they voilating ADA laws and how? I need suggestions as to how I should handle this. Also if anyone is in the area with a Segway I would appreciate the company.

In my opinion, this is a definite violation. The city is in violation of Title II. They cannot exclude a Segway, which is an "other" device unless they can demonstrate that it is a hazard or will disrupt the event. And they cannot base their decision on assumptions about how it will be used. Remember, too, that you do not have to carry proof of disability. They must accept your verbal assurance unless they have visible evidence to the contrary.

In a past post (http://forums.segwaychat.org/showthread.php?t=25902) I provided a PDF file of relevant sections of the law. You could contact them with this information ahead of time or at the very least, carry a couple extra copies of this with you. You might also want to copy the DOJ Help line number into your phone and let the DOJ tell them what the law is. Give them that DOJ number and refer them to the DRAFT website for information on safety studies etc.

And given their record, i'd be prepared for anything, including a willingness to call 911 and ask to have a police officer sent who is familiar with ADA law. You will have the information for that officer if needed. You should also be prepared to give them an idea of the consequences if the DOJ should decide to investigate the formal complaint you will be filing. They can get checked down to door knobs and doorsills for compliance... Oh, yes, be sure to save the letter they sent. You will need it if you have to file a formal complaint. Hopefully it will never come to that but there is absolutely no excuse for this kind of thing. If educating doesn't work then make sure they have to deal with the consequences. Good luck and let us know what happens.

My tolerance level has not improved with age...

Lily Kerns · 03-11-2013, 12:17 AM

You might also want to research Texas EPAMD law. I didn't take time to read the statute to see if cities are allowed to make special regulations or specify where they can or cannot be used, but as far as I could see the state law does not have a minimum age requirement so they might be in violation there as well...

Bob.Kerns · 03-11-2013, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lily Kerns

You might also want to research Texas EPAMD law. I didn't take time to read the statute to see if cities are allowed to make special regulations or specify where they can or cannot be used, but as far as I could see the state law does not have a minimum age requirement so they might be in violation there as well...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas

A person may operate an electric personal assistive mobility device on a sidewalk.

Also, bike paths, streets where the speed limit is 30 MPH or less, or where there is no sidewalk.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...htm/tn.551.htm

Rolacoy · 03-11-2013, 01:09 AM

"demonstrate that it is a hazard", I was there two years ago and had no trouble except with security. They did not send me a letter, what I quoted is in their standard mail-out. I have some time to prepare, we are not going until the end of this month. The one problem that I have is that I might spoil the trip for the rest of my family who are not interested in my riding the Segway.

Lily Kerns · 03-11-2013, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolacoy

"demonstrate that it is a hazard", I was there two years ago and had no trouble except with security. They did not send me a letter, what I quoted is in their standard mail-out. I have some time to prepare, we are not going until the end of this month. The one problem that I have is that I might spoil the trip for the rest of my family who are not interested in my riding the Segway.

Well, if you were not a hazard when you were allowed to use it two years ago, they can hardly claim that now. Their hand out is a bit ridiculous as far as handicap issues go. What about a disabled 16 yr. old who needs to renT one of their scooters? If they were just making regulations for general use of their rented scooters a minimum age might make sense, but to assume that disability only happens after the age of 18 is pretty stupid.

Don't worry about spoiling things for your family. Get them involved or else let them go do their own thing and simply arrange to meet periodically...unless you end up in jail, of course. (Grin)

Their website link you gave was rather informative. It's all about selling stuff. I couldn't find a single search term that gave me the handicap infoRmation you quoted. All kinds of renting information, though, and that green trike ad that came up at the head of every search... From your previous description of the condition of streets, you wouldn't catch me on one of them. I spent too many years around preschoolers and trikes...

It was also interesting that their tips for visitors includes the suggestion to bring a wagon or small shopping cart to carry your purchases. There is no law to require politicians or policy makers to be logical or even sensible...

Rolacoy · 03-11-2013, 09:14 AM

To give them credit they have taken an event and used it to put their town on the map. Many other small towns like Canton that have nothing to offer would like to have a reason to exist. They are after the dollar. We made the mistake of renting two RV lots side by side on the same credit card. If I was to get ejected then they would probably eject both and our lots will be the meeting place for all of our families.

I could contact them pointing out ADA laws before we go over and see what they say. My family would support me to some extent, but it would be selfish of me to ask family members to risk the possibility of being barred or ejected because of my desire of riding my Segway. They all know that I am attending to be with the family and not to shop. I have almost no interest in what is for sale at Canton. Also there is quite a bit of area to ride that is not city owned property. I just don't like to be told no by uninformed "Officials".

I looked at the Zippy Scooter. It seems ridicules to allow them and bar a Segway. The best way might be to contact them first.

KSagal · 03-11-2013, 10:05 AM

There is always two fields of thought in this kind of thing...

There is the "ask first" which allows for ignorant or assumptive authority types to say "no" without grounds, but they do not care to educate themselves.

Then there is the "ask later for forgiveness" which allows you to prepare yourself (like with Lily's data) but wait for a potential issue to become a real one, then present yourself and data, and force an answer on the spot.

The risk with the first is that they may decide to be as many non-dedicated employees are, and simply say no to hope they make their lives easier by scaring you away. If you do not come, they do not get extra work.

You have already tasted their tone. I thought you have posted how they were not particularly receptive to the concept that they ADA may protect you.

It has been my experience that what is right is not always what is supported by local authoritarians.

The risk with the second concept is that you may cause a scene and some over zealous local authoritarian may embarrass you or your family. For me, this is not much of an issue, as I do not shy away from conflict, and am comfortable in making them force their hand. I am polite about it, and well researched in advance (again, Lily's data) but if they tell me to leave, I would ask for a specific reason, on paper. If they give you a citation, and you file a complaint thru ADA protections, they would be easily found wrong. Often just asking them to put their rejection of your ADA rights on paper is enough for them to start to educate themselves. (They would rather tell you to leave and have you do it, then commit to a written document trail)

One thing that I have done in the past, when I thought there might be an issue at a mall or other place where there are protections in place, but also authoritarians in place who may be ignorant, is to use the real power structure to my advantage. If in a mall, or selling environment, Sales is king. In a mall, or series of stores, the anchor stores carry a lot of influence. When on my segway, if I have shopping bags from the high end stores hanging from my handlebars, it shows I am there in that mall to shop, and when push comes to shove, that does have influence on decision makers.

If you were to assign yourself as the carrier of all the goodies your family buys, then you will be seen as an active participant to the sales process, even if you do not personally make any purchases. You have already said that their motivation is to make the town a sales friendly environment as opposed to something else.

IN other words, they seem to want people to come and buy things from their vendors. If you look like a person on a segway who is doing that, you may have just a tiny advantage over looking like a person on a segway who is not doing that.

Good luck, keep us posted.

Lily Kerns · 03-11-2013, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolacoy

To give them credit they have taken an event and used it to put their town on the map. Many other small towns like Canton that have nothing to offer would like to have a reason to exist. They are after the dollar. We made the mistake of renting two RV lots side by side on the same credit card. If I was to get ejected then they would probably eject both and our lots will be the meeting place for all of our families.

I could contact them pointing out ADA laws before we go over and see what they say. My family would support me to some extent, but it would be selfish of me to ask family members to risk the possibility of being barred or ejected because of my desire of riding my Segway. They all know that I am attending to be with the family and not to shop. I have almost no interest in what is for sale at Canton. Also there is quite a bit of area to ride that is not city owned property. I just don't like to be told no by uninformed "Officials".

I looked at the Zippy Scooter. It seems ridicules to allow them and bar a Segway. The best way might be to contact them first.

If I was to get ejected then they would probably eject both and our lots will be the meeting place for all of our families.

If they ejected your RV you would really have grounds for an ADA lawsuit as well as a formal complaint...

Yes, they have put their town on the map, but this policy is very short-sighted -- don't disabled people, especially those who can <G> afford Segways, buy things when they come?

Only you can decide how you want to handle the possibility of conflict. Have you talked with your family about these concerns? They might surprise you on their feelings about this...

[email protected] · 03-11-2013, 10:32 AM

Perhaps a short, polite letter to the editor of the Canton Herald would be helpful.

Something along the line of "Two years ago, I had a bit of a hassle using my EPAMD (Segway) during Trade Days. EPAMDs are covered by the ADA. I'm going to be visiting again this year, and presume that I will have a more friendly reception."

Of course, expand abbreviations, etc.

03-10-2013, 11:10 PM	#1
Rolacoy Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: East Texas Posts: 602	Back to Canton, Texas Two years ago I took our two Segways to The Canton Texas Trade days and security gave me quite a bit of trouble. My brother-in-law who is not handicapped rode with me quite a bit, but not on city property. About half of the area on which the trade days are operated is owned by private citizens who gave us no trouble. Below I have inserted a link to my post at that time. In short the City of Canton, Texas does not allow Segways on city property. http://forums.segwaychat.org/showthread.php?t=25826 Below is a link to their website: http://www.cantontradedays.com/ Several of our family members plan to attend again this year, 12 to 15 of us. I plan to take our Segways and ride them. In the "packet" that they mailed to us along with our tickets is a "First Monday Policies & Procedures" under "Traffic and Parking" it states, "Only motorized scooters manufactured specifically for the handicapped and of a type approved by the management are allowed. Must be 18 years of age with a valid drivers license or have proof of handicap to operate a handicap scooter. Only one person per scooter allowed." Are they voilating ADA laws and how? I need suggestions as to how I should handle this. Also if anyone is in the area with a Segway I would appreciate the company.

03-11-2013, 12:17 AM	#3
Lily Kerns Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: SW Missouri, near Springfield Posts: 875	You might also want to research Texas EPAMD law. I didn't take time to read the statute to see if cities are allowed to make special regulations or specify where they can or cannot be used, but as far as I could see the state law does not have a minimum age requirement so they might be in violation there as well... __________________ Lily Kerns ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Faculty: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

03-11-2013, 10:05 AM	#8
KSagal Glides a lot, talks more... Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Pelham, NH, USA. Posts: 10,356	There is always two fields of thought in this kind of thing... There is the "ask first" which allows for ignorant or assumptive authority types to say "no" without grounds, but they do not care to educate themselves. Then there is the "ask later for forgiveness" which allows you to prepare yourself (like with Lily's data) but wait for a potential issue to become a real one, then present yourself and data, and force an answer on the spot. The risk with the first is that they may decide to be as many non-dedicated employees are, and simply say no to hope they make their lives easier by scaring you away. If you do not come, they do not get extra work. You have already tasted their tone. I thought you have posted how they were not particularly receptive to the concept that they ADA may protect you. It has been my experience that what is right is not always what is supported by local authoritarians. The risk with the second concept is that you may cause a scene and some over zealous local authoritarian may embarrass you or your family. For me, this is not much of an issue, as I do not shy away from conflict, and am comfortable in making them force their hand. I am polite about it, and well researched in advance (again, Lily's data) but if they tell me to leave, I would ask for a specific reason, on paper. If they give you a citation, and you file a complaint thru ADA protections, they would be easily found wrong. Often just asking them to put their rejection of your ADA rights on paper is enough for them to start to educate themselves. (They would rather tell you to leave and have you do it, then commit to a written document trail) One thing that I have done in the past, when I thought there might be an issue at a mall or other place where there are protections in place, but also authoritarians in place who may be ignorant, is to use the real power structure to my advantage. If in a mall, or selling environment, Sales is king. In a mall, or series of stores, the anchor stores carry a lot of influence. When on my segway, if I have shopping bags from the high end stores hanging from my handlebars, it shows I am there in that mall to shop, and when push comes to shove, that does have influence on decision makers. If you were to assign yourself as the carrier of all the goodies your family buys, then you will be seen as an active participant to the sales process, even if you do not personally make any purchases. You have already said that their motivation is to make the town a sales friendly environment as opposed to something else. IN other words, they seem to want people to come and buy things from their vendors. If you look like a person on a segway who is doing that, you may have just a tiny advantage over looking like a person on a segway who is not doing that. Good luck, keep us posted. __________________ Karl Ian Sagal To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. "Well done is better than well said." (Ben Franklin) Bene factum melior bene dictum Proud past President of SEG America and member of the First Premier Segway Enthusiasts Group and subsequent ones as well.

03-11-2013, 01:09 AM	#5
Rolacoy Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: East Texas Posts: 602	"demonstrate that it is a hazard", I was there two years ago and had no trouble except with security. They did not send me a letter, what I quoted is in their standard mail-out. I have some time to prepare, we are not going until the end of this month. The one problem that I have is that I might spoil the trip for the rest of my family who are not interested in my riding the Segway.

03-11-2013, 09:14 AM	#7
Rolacoy Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: East Texas Posts: 602	To give them credit they have taken an event and used it to put their town on the map. Many other small towns like Canton that have nothing to offer would like to have a reason to exist. They are after the dollar. We made the mistake of renting two RV lots side by side on the same credit card. If I was to get ejected then they would probably eject both and our lots will be the meeting place for all of our families. I could contact them pointing out ADA laws before we go over and see what they say. My family would support me to some extent, but it would be selfish of me to ask family members to risk the possibility of being barred or ejected because of my desire of riding my Segway. They all know that I am attending to be with the family and not to shop. I have almost no interest in what is for sale at Canton. Also there is quite a bit of area to ride that is not city owned property. I just don't like to be told no by uninformed "Officials". I looked at the Zippy Scooter. It seems ridicules to allow them and bar a Segway. The best way might be to contact them first.

03-11-2013, 10:32 AM	#10
[email protected] Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lee's Summit, MO, USA Posts: 1,217	Perhaps a short, polite letter to the editor of the Canton Herald would be helpful. Something along the line of "Two years ago, I had a bit of a hassle using my EPAMD (Segway) during Trade Days. EPAMDs are covered by the ADA. I'm going to be visiting again this year, and presume that I will have a more friendly reception." Of course, expand abbreviations, etc.

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