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Old 08-25-2010, 01:30 PM   #41
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I know what I said I know. Just because you don't know what I do, does not mean I don't know it. Just because I did not tell you, does not mean I don't know it. I already said in previous posts that I did not and do not post all that I know, but do often post questions or things to think about, not just propaganda, or conclusions.
That's "refudiation" if I have ever read it! (I think)


I have posted the facts of the situation regarding why building permits for St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church in NYC have not been granted.

It is now eminently clear that St. Nicholas was not seeking to rebuild on their existing site. Rather, they were seeking a huge increase of the size of their facility on a site owned by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. The Port Authority is an inter-state agency, legally separate from the City of New York.

Thee new St. Nicholas facility was predicated upon swapping their 1200 sq ft. existing site for a Port Authority site seven times larger, and getting a contribution of at least $20 million in public money from the Port Authority.

An agreement between the parties existed in 2008, but fell through because of increasing demands by the church.

Thus, there are no finalized plans. Building permits can not be issued until site plans are approved.

The church still has the right to build on their existing property. They have not asked to do so.

St. Nicholas Church is comfortable enough with a NY Times article about the proposed rebuild that they link to it from the front page of their own website. That article says that solving the problems of their new site are indicative of the kind of problems that permeate the rebuilding of the Ground Zero area.

About St. Nicholas not getting a building permit, KSagal posted, " This is a function of political correctness not only running amok, but being very selective in doing so."

Despite the above information, and having submitted not the slightest shred of evidence to support his own position, KSagal refuses to even acknowledge the facts of the situation, let alone reconsider his claim.

Readers are therefore left to reach their own conclusions regarding why KSagal would have made such a statement in the first place, and why, in the face of facts clearly proving otherwise, he would cling to such a prejudicial perspective.
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Old 08-25-2010, 02:21 PM   #42
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Or perhaps people can come to their own conclusions based on facts and not those produced by one side or the other. Read it all, and decide.
Don't doubt for one minute that what was presented here was the whole story, or that it was offered without bias. It was.
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Old 08-25-2010, 02:22 PM   #43
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I have an idea, just ignore what KSagal posts in any debate thread, the way you might ignore a noisy fan in a room. Let the conversation drown out the background noise, as it were.
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Old 08-25-2010, 02:36 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Gihgehls View Post
I have an idea, just ignore what KSagal posts in any debate thread, the way you might ignore a noisy fan in a room. Let the conversation drown out the background noise, as it were.

THat's a great plan. Thanks for the consideration. Have a nice day.
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Old 08-25-2010, 09:57 PM   #45
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Or perhaps people can come to their own conclusions based on facts and not those produced by one side or the other. Read it all, and decide.
I agree wholeheartedly. I have posted a whole lot of information from sources such as the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church website, the New York Times, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, as well as other sources.

The "opposition" has clung to an untenable personal belief, but has not posted any facts, or even referred to any facts, from any source. Why?

Because there are no facts to support the fictional creation that St. Nicholas didn't get building permits because, of "a function of political correctness not only running amok, but being very selective in doing so."
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Old 08-30-2010, 04:26 PM   #46
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Curiously, we still have not seen an admission that there is no evidence to support a conclusion that "political correctness", running amok or not, had anything to do with St. Nicholas Church not getting building permits.

One must ponder whether such an admission is forthcoming, or if sullen silence is the most that one can hope for.
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:40 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Civicsman View Post
Curiously, we still have not seen an admission that there is no evidence to support a conclusion that "political correctness", running amok or not, had anything to do with St. Nicholas Church not getting building permits.

One must ponder whether such an admission is forthcoming, or if sullen silence is the most that one can hope for.
No need to wonder. It is not forthcoming, never was, and I have already said so. The only silence will be if you ask again. There is nothing to defend here. Reasonable people have no problem understanding if this was political correctness or not. Only very narrow minds don't know.
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:44 PM   #48
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No need to wonder. It is not forthcoming, never was, and I have already said so. The only silence will be if you ask again. There is nothing to defend here. Reasonable people have no problem understanding if this was political correctness or not. Only very narrow minds don't know.
There is some very illuminating thinking in the post above.

In this thread, I have posted what most people would consider facts showing why the building permits for St. Nicholas church have been denied. Most are specific pieces of information and have attributed sources. Others have also posted information and links supporting the position that the St. Nicholas permit denial has nothing whatsoever to do with political correctness. Are these facts 100% conclusive? Of course not. Is there a high probability that the situation(s) described in these facts were major reasons for the denial of the St. Nicholas building permits? Yes. Absolutely.

In response, there has only been the unsupported allegation, repeated ad nauseum, that "political correctness" is the cause of denied building permits for St. Nicholas. There has not been not one single fact posted to support that allegation. Not one link. Not one coherent argument.

The implication of the post above is that only narrow-minded individuals would not accept that political correctness is at fault. However, those allegedly "narrow-minded" folks are posting facts. They are also asking for facts or references in rebuttal, but none are forthcoming.

Those termed "reasonable people" in the post above have "no problem" understanding the situation and clearly already "know" the answers.

So here is a summary of the post above:

"Narrow minded" people are those who provide facts and ask for facts from the opposite perspective, and who are at least open to the possibility that other, persuasive facts, might change a point of view.

"Reasonable" people are those who have already "know" the answer, without facts of their own and despite facts to the contrary.

Bizarro World, anyone?

Last edited by Civicsman; 08-30-2010 at 09:29 PM.. Reason: more needed to be said.
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:59 PM   #49
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...and facts be damned.
You can act any way you see fit. I like them. If you have some to share, you may want to. I encourage it. Of course, all that is published is not fact, and we have gone over all this in the past.

I recall reading one time about a condition that is characterized by doing (or asking the same question) something over and over, but expecting a different result. You may want to reconsider your repeated requests for me to offer some sort of admission that you want.
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Old 08-31-2010, 01:16 AM   #50
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I like [facts]. If you have some to share, you may want to. I encourage it. Of course, all that is published is not fact, and we have gone over all this in the past.

I recall reading one time about a condition that is characterized by doing (or asking the same question) something over and over, but expecting a different result. You may want to reconsider your repeated requests for me to offer some sort of admission that you want.
"Not all that is published is fact" is a sweeping statement. It is true, but it is a red herring. It uses the cheap trick of stating a truism to try to dismiss any and every fact, up front and without discussion, that disputes a particular point of view. Of course not "everything" published is a fact, but what about the specific facts that I (and others) have posted. Not one of the many facts I have posted has been addressed, disputed, or even acknowledged.

Let's take one example. The website of St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church has a link to a newspaper article that provides reasons for why the church was not yet granted a building permit. By dismissing this very inconvenient fact out of hand, one would apparently be claiming that St. Nicholas is purposefully misleading readers into thinking that there ARE legitimate reasons for not yet having building permits

That would be an insult to St. Nicholas' Church, if it were not so completely absurd.

The suggestion in the post above is that I am insane to keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. This statement stems from a fundamental misunderstanding. In fact, I fully expect exactly the same response. I believe the transparent stonewalling and ongoing refusal to defend one's own allegation on the basis of even one fact, speaks volumes.

For important issues, I consider it a matter of personal responsibility to remind readers about this as often as I think it might be needed.
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