[KSagal]

I too wish to thank ZOli for bringing that link to this forum.

I found that it was dreadfully long, and simply full of dread.

While I generally find that I aggree with much of Steven says, and surely do understand much of what he offered here, I am not so sure I would come to some of the same assessments that he has... There is surely merit in many of his arguments and considerations, and clearly the hour an a third was heavy on propaganda.

As far as giving Michael Moore equal time, that not needed. He can make his point in much less than an hour. After about 5 minutes of Michael Moore, if you do not understand his position and ALL the facts that he has, you are not his audience anyway. I feel him to be an opportunist and partisan fool, and only preaches to the same. The rest who are listening are there for another reason beside contemplative consideration...

One thing that has bothered me about the muslim jihad and all the numbers that have been bandied about, is just how accurate the estimates are for the support in the muslim community for the extreamists.

Pam commented on the reaction to the people from the neighboring convention in Chi town, about the segway. It was dismissed because Kamen was declared to be Jewish. I would doubt that we would call them jihadists.

When Jim Jones had his followers in Guiannna, and fed them all coolaide that killed them (Many young people do not understand the reference to coolaide drinkers) and they willingly drank it because he convinced them that it was the religiously right thing to do...

Anyway, Jones had declared himself as a proper christian, who was enlightened. He then killed all those followers... There was outcry from christians from all over, including the Pope, and the head of many if not most all christian churches all over the globe, distancing themselves and their churches from the 'Christian" that Jones was. They were very quick to say that Jones did not represent christianity in any way...

Now think of the many attacks and events in this jihad. How many muslim leaders have been vocal in denouncing these attrocities? Very few. One or two have come out like Arafat, and said that he did not condone terrorism when speaking in english, then turn right around and speak in arabic about supporting the jihad. Most others have been deafeningly silent.

I recall the scramble that the media went thru to find muslim leaders to explain what was going on after 9-11. They had no muslim leaders, they had 'department heads of muslim studies' from 2nd rate universities as the spokespeople. Not leaders of muslims.

Even Jewish leaders around the world are vocal about support or lack of it for activities in Israel. Other religions speak openly about others within their religion, either in support or to declare them as out of the mainstream...

Muslim Sunami victims were denied aid offered by Isreal. Their own governments would rather not allow Israeli aid workers in their country. This is not the action of people who do not support jihad.

I don't know of any government sponsored textbooks for children that teach hate, other than in muslim national schools in various countries. Here, the parallel to the Hitler youth is a good one. These are not the school textbooks of people who do not support jihad.

Now, I do not doubt that there are christian fundementalists who are radical. I do not doubt Jewish fundamentalists who are radical as well. I also believe that they could conspire within their little groups and may even assinate an opposing leader from time to time. But the numbers are not the same as what we are looking at here...

Let's look at one more thing. All those missles in southern Lebanon that are raining down on northern Israel. What about that great mass of Israeli army, out in plain site, in large groups sitting around. Talk about painting a target on themselves...

Yet the missles are still comming down in the towns and villiages, not on the military targets... THis indicates a great deal to me. THis is not a war against Israel. It has nothing to do with Israel's occupation of Lebanon, as they have been out for years. This is about killing jews. Any jews. Preferably women and children, as this is a better target to demoralize people...

I will state again as I have stated before. I am a libertarian, and feel that the government should stay out of people's lives, and let them do what they want without interferance. THat is only if that which they do does not adversly affect their neighbor. Any person who's chosen path leads over the dead children of any neighbor, does not have any of my respect, no way, no how...