Thunderstorms? Lightning?
 

I've no desire to get caught in rain...my glasses don't have wipers...but I do have a question. I understand that auto tires will insulate you from lightning, but what is safe if you get caught in a storm on your seg? Common sense says avoid if at all possible.. But some of these storms are coming up pretty fast and I'm not always that close to either home or shelter, so safety tips would be welcome.

That's not correct. Tires or other rubber items do very little to protect one from a lightning strike. What helps in a car is the metal body, which acts as a Faraday cage. Lightning that strikes a vehicle travels through the metal wrapper and to the earth below. On the bottom side of the car, it either travels through the tires (there's lots of conductive carbon in those "rubber" tires") or arcs directly to the earth. Remember that lightning has already arced down from the cloud. It can certainly arc another foot from the bottom of the car to the ground. If you don't touch the metal parts of a car inside, you'll likely be OK. Aircraft get struck all the time.

With an approaching storm, you must get OFF the Seg and get away from it. Standing upright, it's like you are standing on a ladder. You're a prime target for the "leaders" which are looking for the easiest path to the earth. Don't shelter under trees, as they can sometimes quite literally explode when hit by lightning, driving splinters of wood into anything nearby.

If you are caught in a storm with lightning and you really have zero shelter, such as being in a field, crouch down with your arms wrapped around knees, and feet positioned so that they touch each other. It's better to do this in a depression in the earth, if you have the option. There are arguments that say laying down prostrate is a better solution, but I subscribe to the "potential difference" theory. Lightning which strikes the earth electrifies the area around. The point of strike has the highest instantaneous voltage with respect to the earth, and the voltage drops as the distance increases from the strike point. If lightning strikes the earth near to you, and your feet are far apart, there will be a large voltage across your body, and electrical current could flow through your body. This might actually be worse that being struck directly. With your feet close together, there will be relatively less voltage across your body. BTW, there seems to be agreement that umbrellas are good for shedding rain, but you don't want to be holding one in a lighting storm.

Most storms don't come out of nowhere and start flinging off lightning bolts within seconds or minutes. It takes time for the storm to build. Get yourself a good warning application, such as Storm for iPhone, which notifies you when lightning or precipitation are approaching. If you're going gliding in storm season, maybe make a plan for where and how you would shelter safely, and, perhaps pack a folded plastic trash bag for rain protection.

My research says that if the lightning flash-to-thunder time is less than 25 seconds, you're already in the potential danger area for a lightning strike.

Obviously I'm not a physicist... But I've been leery of the danger. Accurate or not, Being a rolling lightning rod is not an attractive idea. Around here the warning is that if you can hear the thunder, get inside. As I left church this morning it was just starting to mist. It was sprinkling and thundering before I was out of the parking lot. Fortunately I've less than two blocks to go and didn't even get wet since the bulk of the storm waited until I got in the house. I do carry a folded raincoat packet but would have had to stop to put it on. The storm was a bit earlier than had been forecast....

Thanks for the response. Things I didn't know...

And thinking about this, I'm curious...would going down a street between buildings and tall trees be a slight safety factor? Would the fact you are moving add danger? As my brother puts it: "I do wonder about the oddest things!"

Interesting things to concern yourself with...

It is exceedingly rare to be struck by lightning, and rarer still to do this while on a segway.

I will not comment on the advice previously given, and have no reason to believe that any of it is faulty, but you may wish to consider that I do not think it particularly likely that you will get struck by lightning, even though you clearly can do things that may or may not make your odds change.

I believe it is kind of like asking for advice on how to with the lottery, or some other thing that have the odds fantastically stacked against you.

I suspect that some people go thru their whole lives, climbing metal ladders in the rain, playing golf in the rain, and doing other things that logically seem to increase your likelihood of being struck by lightening, yet never get hit. I further suggest that others who do not do these things, who logically seem less likely to get struck, do occasionally get struck.

I wish you luck, and wish you a lightening strike free life, if that is your wish.

LOL. You take your chances... On the other hand, lightning is one thing I'd just as soon avoid... A neighbor had 11 head of cattle killed by lightning in this latest round of storms.. A $40,000 loss is not to be sneezed at...

Fair enough...

Now, at this point, I guess it would be appropriate to suggest that you do not do what those cattle were doing.

Were they walking down streets with tall buildings? Were they moving? Were they using umbrellas or segways?

Perhaps, you may wish to do a more local analysis. Where do lightening strikes in your area happen? (Around here, there are power lines on the the typically wooden telephone poles, and if one of the poles gets hit, it is either at a mounted transformer (which has a direct path to ground) or near it...)

If most of your local strikes occur in the cattle fields and not the streets you frequent, your odds are better. If most of the local lightening strikes are in the cities and towns, and less in the farm fields, then not doing the what the cows did may not help you. Of course, it did not help them either...

I am sure if you look hard enough, you will find some poor soul who wants to be struck and has been trying for years, unsuccessfully. If you find someone like this, perhaps you should hang with them. Conversely, you may run an ad, asking for those who have been struck, or relatives of those who have been struck, and stay far away from them.

Anyway you slice it, I wish you luck in your anti-quest.

True, but the cattle obviously didn't know that.

When one quotes statistics, it's important to understand the context on which the given statistic is based.

It is exceedingly rare to be struck by lightning, if one calculates it as a percentage of the number of individuals struck (worldwide) per year, over the entire world population.

However it is much LESS rare when one calculates the statistic based on the number of those struck per year, over the number of people per year who were in dangerous lightning-prone conditions. If one glides one's Seg through a lightning storm, while cresting a hill with nothing higher than yourself..... then "exceedingly rare" clearly doesn't apply. One might still get away with it, but one's chances of being clobbered go way up when one participates in risky behavior.

Take the documented case of Roy Williams http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Sullivan

In my opinion, trees and buildings that are higher than you, and close to you, such as traveling down a street, might provide some protection from being struck directly. They're taller and the lightning leaders have a higher probability of finding a nice, juicy ground path through a building or a tree, before it finds you.

However, if lightning strikes a tree, it can explode, just like someone used explosives. Shrapnel goes everywhere. You can search for photos and videos of situations where this happened.

I think it is very unlikely that one is moving changes the probability very much. According to one source, each lightning strike consists of four "flashes", each about 30 microseconds (millionths of a second) duration. You don't move very far at 12.5 MPH in 120 microseconds.

There are zillions of people who don't take lightning warnings seriously, and every year somewhere between 6,000 and 24,000 people are killed, worldwide (estimates vary). That statistic doesn't include injuries. Most people do not die from being struck by lightning, but they often sustain significant long-term injuries.

You can either take precautions, or decide to go ahead and put up that flagpole in the storm. The dice are yours to roll.

So, by trying to justify the impossible to calculate, you must conclude that those cows were riding segways over the crest of a hill in order to be hit by lightening.

Exceedingly rare does apply, because there are billions of people exposed in one form or another to lightening, and a few thousand die (by your numbers, which you said yourself cannot be accurately calculated)

Are you saying that you know for a fact, or can prove statistically, that keeping your feet together and squatting down is safer than some other position, or are you extrapolating other data and applying it here? I suspect you do not have direct evidence.

Also, are you saying that every person who rides a segway in the rain is more likely to be struck by lightening than someone else in some other situation?

I do not believe there is enough data to make a realistic conclusion based on fact, but instead you are applying what you believe to be reasonable assumptions. (I am not even arguing that they are not reasonable, I suspect they might be okay assumptions)

There are so many other factors not discussed, that I believe have a greater impact on someone's likelihood of being hurt by lightening than what has been discussed here so far.

Just because of the shear numbers, I suspect there are more people in wood framed houses each year that are hurt from lightening that those who ride on segways over ridges, with metal framed umbrellas over their heads.

I know you are just trying to say that I am wrong, and that may be so. I surely hope no one gets struck by lightening as a result of the comments I have made in this thread. I am confident that no one will avoid getting struck by lightening by the content in this thread either. I may be wrong, I have been wrong in the past, I will be wrong in the future, but I am still confident that this thread will have no measurable impact on any people getting struck by lightening.

Have a nice day...

LOL. I think we've probably carried this far enough toward the useless/ridiculous....

The 11 cows I referred to were expensive breeding stock. Standing under a tree. In the same storm, a house was hit and burned. Nothing to fool around with!

Moral of the story, I guess is to err on the side of caution...

BTW in the same spirit as the rest of this conversation and because things have been a bit dull around this forum, would anyone care to provide advice on how to manage an open umbrella while riding a Segway? One with the wind openings near the top might be more manageable.... A wind from your backside might be useful (if you can see around the umbrella). How would that affect the seg's maximum speed? Otherwise you are creating your own wind which would act as a brake.....

Forgive Me!

If you tilt the umbrella over your shoulder, behind your head, you will have a wind brake. As you said, if you hold it tilted forward, with a tail wind, you will have a spinnaker type sail. One will hurt your progress, the other may improve it...

However, if you use a clear bubble type umbrella, with your head inside, and held upright, it should not overly impact your progress, as it will be relatively aerodynamic. (I believe you should still try not to tilt it too much.)

http://scene7.targetimg1.com/is/imag...id=480&hei=480

Something like this one might work...

Unfortunately, considering the beginning of this thread, you should never use this umbrella in the rain. You could use it some other times, however... :)

Additional problems, even if isn't a thunderstorm.... How would you equip this with wipers? And how deal with the drip blowing back against your legs?

If you really want to get into it, please look at this modification I added several years ago to deal with inclement weather.

http://forums.segwaychat.org/gallery...reenhouse2.JPG


This may meet you needs,.

I'm pretty sure that almost everyone understands the relationship between the cows struck by lightning and the points I have posted.

Lily, I understand that you have personal concerns about potential lightning strikes, and it is only fair to you that you receive the best information possible that will help you to avoid being struck, and to minimize the possibility of death or injury if you are caught in a situation.

Though it is incredibly easy to do, some people are happy to provide opinions without apparently bothering to do any research. In today's world of almost instant access to factual information, this seems unconscionable, particularly where personal safety is concerned. If necessary, do your own research and learn what real lightning researchers say about the topic

For example, the most minimal research will demonstrate I am not basing my comments about putting your feet together on my personally-observed direct evidence. In fact, I suspect that none of the posters here have personally performed any tests of lightning strikes, though I admit there is some indirect evidence that some here have been struck themselves. Although I was already aware of lightning information, I took the time to research the specific questions. However, lightning is a form of electricity, which conforms to Ohm's law as it flows through the earth. Ohm's law is very basic knowledge for every electrical engineer and technician.

In a lightning strike of the earth, Voltage (measured with respect to the backgroud "earth" potential) is greatest at the point of the impact, and that voltage dissipates through to zero through the earth over distance. (Some info says 100 feet is still dangerous for an earth strike. Look up "fulgarites" to get an idea of the distance that the power of lightning can actually melt soil).

So, if one foot is closer to the strike location than the other, one foot will be at a higher Voltage than the other, and there will be a Voltage differential across your feet. It's just like touching a ground with one hand and touching a voltage source with the other, except this is likely thousands of volts (depends on conditions). Voltage differential causes current flow through a resistance. In this case, you. In a lightning strike, the farther your feet are apart, the higher the voltage between your feet, and the higher the electrical current that will flow through your body. You get shocked, and the current can be so high that your body incurs internal burn damage. Nasty.

There are lots of articles and data about this. FEMA has safety tips, for example, but words and data may be difficult for some, so I'm posting a picture showing the appropriate position.
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/0...strated-guide/

Again, one can choose to blithely accept the overall odds of being struck (extremely low), or can choose to consider the significantly increased risks of an individual situation, such as being exposed on a Seg in a lightning storm. With real knowledge, one can make an informed decision about whether to play it safe, or to possibly contribute to next year's Darwin Awards.

My question was both very serious and, in part, facetious so I do appreciate both sets of answers. Your information is new to me so if I ever get in a situation where I need it I will indeed remember it. Thanks.

As snarky as other posters may get, there has not been any definitive data offered in this thread. There are best guesses, that are posted as facts, but the answers offered as facts are specious, because the question is unanswerable. (unless you take your own opinion so seriously that you confuse it with fact.)

I did do the foolish thing of asking a search engine about the lightening questions posted here on this thread... The responses all offered data as fact, and each contradicted the next. There were no definitive answers that were agreed to by any consensus.

An exerpt from the first 3 sites I read significant data about surviving a lightening strike, or minimizing you likelihood of being struck is enclosed.

"In the United States, lightning strikes kill about 100 people each year and injure about 1,000, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).
FEMA estimates that your chances of being struck by lightning are now about 1 in 600,000. Over the past 100 years, the rate at which people are struck has dropped substantially, as fewer people now work outdoors on farms or ranches."


"By Dr. Mercola
From 2003 to 2012, nearly 350 people died from being struck by lightning in the US.1 Many more are struck by lightning and survive, as only about 10 percent of lighting-strike victims are killed (though many do suffer from serious long-term effects).
Contrary to popular belief, what you do during a lightning strike can make all the difference in the outcome, helping you to survive and potentially suffer only minor injuries.
You might think this will never happen to you, but when you consider that the Earth is struck by more than 100 lightning bolts every second,2 it doesn't sound so far-fetched, does it? If you live in the US, you have a 1 in 3,000 chance of being struck by lightning in your lifetime. Knowing what to do if it happens can save your life."


"Q: Does carrying an open umbrella during a thunderstorm increase your odds of being hit by lightning?
A: As a flash travels toward the ground from a nearby cloud, it looks for the tallest object. But it is very blind as it travels, and only searches within about a 50-yard radius at the lower end of the channel, both outward and downward. It has no preconceived idea of what it will strike when it starts out in the cloud. So lightning does not look several miles away to the side during its downward travel to find a hill, a tower, building, or umbrella that is just a little taller than what is at its lower end within 50 yards.
The flash that is already going to hit nearby is the one to worry about. Within that range, you don't want to be the tallest object or attached to it. If you're holding an umbrella in an area surrounded by taller buildings, it's not so bad. But if you are already the only tall object within 50 yards, then it doesn't matter much what you are holding.
(Answered by: Ron Holle, research meteorologist, NOAA National Severe Storms Laboratory, Norman, Okla., Aug. 24, 1999)
"


You can see they contradict each other, because they are compiled by those who think too much, and do too little. There are some questions that have no real answer, because there are too many variables to give a realistic complete answer. It is like asking if it will rain on June 5th. Some people may answer it, and try to prove their point with the history of rain on June 5th, or the farmer's almanac, or simply choose to contradict anything thing I might say about June 5th. The truth is they would all be guesses, and you will have to wait till June 6th to have an absolute answer, and even then, some will argue with you.

As far as giving nice older ladies the advice to squat in a ditch to avoid being struck by lightening, I think I will take a pass. I have bad knees, and I know that I am more likely to hurt myself squatting in that ditch than gliding home to shelter from the rain. Let's not even go to the point that the first advice anyone should give is to simply come in from the rain. Most of us know that, except possibly domestic turkeys being fattened up for Thanksgiving.

So, snark away. I maintain that I have read nothing on this thread, or the research I have done regarding this topic, that will impact any person reading this thread in any way regarding being struck by lightening.

I did learn some interesting things on the websites I visited in researching this response, but I have no way to know the validity of that which I read.

I believe sometimes some of us take ourselves too seriously. Sometimes we can lighten up. Of course, this kind of lighten up is different from the lightening up you would do if struck by lightening.

I would like to say that the moral of the story is to come in out of the rain.
However, one time, many years ago, we had ball lightning flash through our dining room. It happened so fast that we barely had time to be startled. It followed the stove pipe down, but didn't do any damage.

This was interesting research too... Apparently it is pretty rare, although it has a long history, and is pretty much unexplained.

There was someone (sorry, I forgot who) that used to post on these forums about using a Nubrella on a Segway. I have not tried it, but it is an interesting idea.

As I explained elsewhere, I wear a motorcycle helmet anyway for other reasons, which is about all the protection from rain I usually need.

I realize that it is a personal choice, but I would much rather be in the camp of thinking too much, than not thinking enough. If a subject is important, then use your own brain. Take the time to read contrasting views, then do further research to see which views might be better supported by data than other views. Armed with more complete information, one has a much better chance of determining what is factual and what is merely opinion, and can consequently come to personal conclusions about what is reasonable, and what is not. If one is unable to do that, then life is already difficult, without worrying more about lightning strikes.

For example, while "Dr. Mercola" may have come up in someone's search about lightning, he is a Doctor of Osteopathy, not a specialist in lighting, or any other atmospheric phenomenon. His website is largely about medical issues. One must therefore presume that he gets his information about lightning strikes from someplace other than his own personal knowledge. Why then, would anyone use his numbers to try to make a point? (Here's a real source, from a bunch of people who "think too much". http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/research/lightning/ )

We don't know where Dr. Mercola got his statistics, but the salient point of his article is that lightning is dangerous, and one should take precautions. Regarding his statistics, Dr. Mercola himself clearly states that one must make a personal evaluation of the validity of sources of information. Of the quality of any given source, he says, [I]"... move on to the next important question: what are their qualifications? That's good advice, but not well understood by everyone.

Should one wish to take the time to do so, one could easily assess the quality of Dr. Mercola's information against that from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which has highly educated (i.e. "think too much") people on staff who study lightning, and some who compile statistics. While it is pretty obvious that NOAA likely has better info about lightning than Dr. Mercola, if the information conflicts in some important way, and one is not satisfied, then one must dig deeper still to get better answers.

Although the quotes from FEMA, Dr. Mercola, and Ron Holle (the NOAA meteorologist) may differ in some details, such as how many people are struck each year (The number of strikes per year seems to be a major sticking point for some), the fundamental message of all three quotes is that lightning can be deadly, and one should act intelligently and should take precautions so that they do not become a statistic. This overarching message is the most important part of all three quotes, and is seemingly ignored.

The posted quotes from Ron Holle, the NOAA meteorologist are particularly curious, in that they support my point of view. He supports my stated view that nearby buildings may provide some protection from lightning. Holle states that nobody can say exactly where a lightning strike will hit. That's certainly correct. It has no intelligence. It's finding it's way from cloud to earth by following the chaotic path of least resistance. If you are unlucky (or foolish enough) to be somewhere near the bottom end of that path, and "...if you are already the only tall object within 50 yards, then it doesn't matter much what you are holding."

It's clear to any sentient person that the odds of being a lightning statistic are obviously much higher if lightning is cracking in your vicinity. And if you're riding a Seg in conditions where lightning is likely, you are really tempting fate by offering yourself up as a good target.

Bureaucrats like to pontificate. There are no restrictions on if bureaucrats can be scientists or not. Those who must publish to keep the public (tax funded) dollars rolling in are not immune from pontificating.

I saw no practical or experiential evidence that said that anyone has survived a lightening strike, or had less damage to their body, because they squatted with their heels together instead of coming in out of the rain. Perhaps it exists, but all I found was theoretical data.

Of all the lightening survivors documented that I saw, none were squatting with their heels together.

We should also consider that this question was posed by a mobility challenged senior person.

I am not entirely in that same category, but do have my own challenges, and feel that the likelihood of having damage or discomfort from trying to squat like that in the rain is higher than from lightening strikes.

On this very thread, we have a first hand experience from ball lightening inside a house, so I can only hope that everyone in that dining room immediately jumped to their feet, then squatted in the corners of the room, as that would seem the only way to survive that event.

On considering that... I generally have between 25 to 30 people at my home each Thanksgiving for dinner. I shall propose to my wife that we should all eat while squatting with our heels together. If she agrees, I hope to be able to snap a picture and post it here.

All this aside, I still propose that all that has been posted here will have no impact at all on the likelihood of anyone reading this thread from being struck by lightening, or helping them to survive a strike, but if anyone does squat in the rain with their heels together, it may increase their likelihood of having some knee discomfort or the sniffles.

I agree with the statement that if armed with complete information, one has a better chance of determining what is factual and what is opinion, and come to a personal conclusion about what is reasonable. The problem is, when I post what I feel is reasonable, some do not like it.

On a parallel note, if segging on the moon without a space suit, you are best off holding your breath.

If anyone reading these words actually segways on the moon without a space suit, and without holding their breath, or gets struck by lightening and survives by squatting with their heels together, please post to this thread or send me a personal message, and I will happily print a retraction.

Edit: Upon reading my first line, I realize that I like to pontificate, and while not a bureaucrat, I am surely not alone in this tendency, as many of us on the internet like to do it. As a measure of full disclosure, I also do it in person, and upon occasion, will do it while squatting in the rain.

In fact, what I wrote was, " Armed with more complete information, one has a much better chance of determining what is factual and what is merely opinion..."

One still has to do research. One still has to be able to discern the difference between high quality information and that from a website (or other source) which has no credential, education, or experience in the topic at hand. One's must be able to resist cherry-picking information that will only confirm one's pre-existing beliefs. One must be willing to consider the possibility that one's pre-existing beliefs may be wrong. One must be willing to have one's theory (perspective) and data subjected to peer review. Some people are not capable of doing these things, and are thus poorly equipped to come to an accurate conclusion, or to be a scientist theselves.

Choosing to believe that scientists pontificate, but really don't know anything about their chosen field is a serious problem (for civilization, in general) especially when combined with "I don't know anything about that field, but I sure know more than them bureaucrat scientists". Where then, does one get quality information about lightning strikes, or any other complex topic outside of one's own personal expertise? Refusing to consider educated and experienced viewpoints is Dark Ages thinking. (I could explain, again, why crouching and putting feet close together can help prevent more serious lightning injuries, but apparently one has to be an electrical technician, or engineer, or at least have some understanding of basic electricity, so I will not waste the space).

So, please feel free to continue to base things on a fundamental misunderstanding of basic statistics. Don't bother to try to avoid dangerous weather. Don't consider trying to find some type of shelter. Don't even bother to get off your Seg while lightning is crackling around you. Perhaps you'll even want to get some personal proof that your perspective is correct, and those stupid bureaucrat scientists are all wrong, and head for open high ground during the next few lightning storms! If it turns out that reality trumps your personal opinion, I am willing to submit your "test results" to the Darwin Awards for consideration.

Have a nice day.

Wonderful.

I make my living as an electro-mechanical engineer, and you have dismissed that. Good for you.

I do not recall ever saying that your theory about squatting was electrically unsound. You were the one who called it a theory in your first mention of it.

I did say on several points that your guesses and estimations were most likely reasonable.

I am simply saying that they are not necessarily germane.

There are lots of people, when asked a question that has no reasonable answer, because the variables are too great and uncontrollable, will answer anyway. It makes them feel smarter, because they answered the unanswerable question.

Can what you say make you more likely to survive a lightening strike? Maybe. I never said it wouldn't. All I said is that you are more likely to hurt yourself trying to squat in a ditch than to simply go home.

You can tell all that are reading (both of us) that I am an ignoramus. I probably am. But that will not stop me from telling nice older women that if they are afraid of being struck by lightening, it is unlikely, and their best plan of action is to go home. Even if it is already raining.

Except for your attacking my postings and my personal conclusions based on the research that I did, and you said I should do, you have not offered any substantiation of any survivors who squatted in a ditch to become survivors.

So, since you cannot and choose not to offer any conclusive proof that what you say will actually apply to the situation, you attack my statements that while some will answer, the truth is that question has no real answer.

The OP, in post #1, asked for safety advice, when caught in the rain on a seg. The safest thing to do is go home. That is what she did. She even mentioned that she had a rain coat with her, but had reasoned it was better to make the dash for home rather than stop and put it on. Again, she did the most prudent thing. I believe she was right. She survived to tell us so. Evidence would indicate that her plan was a good one, although there is no conclusive evidence that it was the only good one.

I do find it entertaining when you post that I don't understand basic electricity, instead of acknowledging that there is a difference between a "book" correct answer and a common sense, real world appropriate action.

For any who may be still reading, if you are sure you are about to be struck by lightening, feel free to squat in a ditch with your heels together, as instructed. If you are already mobility impaired, that may be difficult, but do not worry. If you are not, and you spend enough time squatting in ditches in the rain, I suspect your knees will let you know what a good plan that was, long before the lightening actually proves me wrong, and soon enough you will join the ranks of the mobility impaired.

Additionally, my apparent lack of basic electrical understanding which my employer is luckily unaware of, has not overly impacted my ability to earn a living in an electromechanical engineering capacity, because I use my skills to provide a service for which I am compensated for, and that compensation pays for my ability to provide for my family.

One last question. Does the titanium in my knee (thanks to Army doctors) impact if I should be pointing my knees toward the impending lightening bolt? Am I more likely to be hit on my right knee (because of the metal in it) than the left one? Oh well, I guess that was two. It is okay, I also lack the basic understanding of mathematics and counting...

KSAGAL's answer, "just go home and get out of the rain" is good advice, but the The original post specifically asked, "but what is safe if you get caught in a storm on your seg? Common sense says avoid if at all possible.. But some of these storms are coming up pretty fast and I'm not always that close to either home or shelter, so safety tips would be welcome." (emphasis is mine).

So this thread is about what to do if one gets caught in a lightning storm while Segging. "Just glide home" is not a valid answer to that question, and is not a strategy that is suggested or promoted by anyone who has actual knowledge of lightning events.

I don't know whether every electromechanical engineer has a good understanding of the properties of electricity. I personally know of many "field engineers" who are educated as repair technicians, not engineers, and, perhaps surprisingly, may not have a good understanding of electricity. This lack of understanding does not mean these people are not permitted to have "Field Engineer" on their business card, or that they are unable to make a living....at the right type of job. However, when I lay out the reasoning behind crouching on the balls of one's feet, if one is exposed in the open to lightning, and it is dismissed without any technical reasoning to support the dismissal, the facts lead me to wonder whether the electrical issues are understood.

Yes, I said it was a "theory", but the question isn't whether taking the squatting pose does as advertised, minimizing high current from a nearby ground strike directly through the body (it clearly does), but rather whether it is a better safety strategy than laying flat on the ground. Laying flat minimizes the likelihood of being struck directly, but crouching on the balls of your feet, with feet touching, minimizes the through the body damage of a nearby earth strike. I gave both safety strategies in my original post, and the reasons behind them.

What followed was not a discussion of potential life saving strategies, but rather repeated attempts to dismiss the need for taking any precautions. This is based, in my opinion on a completely inaccurate perception of lightning strike statistics, and how they apply to someone who is actually caught in the open in a lightning storm, coupled with refusal to consider what lightning experts (referred to as "bureaucratic scientists") consider to be prudent actions.

Below, I've reposted my first response. It's still the only real advice in this thread for Lily (or others), unless you count "just ignore the storm and glide home".

I haven't yet been able to find specific instances of people who were struck, or avoided being struck, while in the crouching "lightning safety position". Obviously, if they were not struck, it was a non-event and there is less likelihood of statistics.

Additionally, it is becoming apparent that the official position is changing to "There is no safe position when in the open. Run for a safe location!". One of the documents I linked to below indicates that the change is because some people apparently thought that the lightning safety position made you SAFE. This is not correct. It may make you safer than standing upright (or on a Seg), but not "safe". Lying prone on the ground is still specifically counseled against, as it makes one particularly vulnerable to the ground current of nearby strikes. (see below)

Of course, if you're in a dangerously exposed location, and not able escape, outrun, or shelter indoors from the storm, what are your best options? This was Lily's question, I think.

I admit that I haven't been able to find specific examples of people who were actually in the lightning safety position when they were struck. Based on a quick assessment of how and where people were struck, my > guess < is that most of them had no idea they were at risk, and hence took no safety precautions. Some were just too stupid. (See the photos of smiling people with their hair standing on end from high voltage static electric field)

For those who might be having difficulty in understand the science behind the crouching lightning safety position, here are some links that explain lightning ground current. The first link explains how ground currents work and includes provides safety tips. The second demonstrates how having your feet apart at a normal distance could put 50,000 Volts across your body. The third link is to a document about back country safety, where you might not be able to get to a safe location before the storm gets to you. The web pages explain exactly what advantages the crouching position has, and the science behind it. These include easy-to-understand graphics and photos.

If you're caught in the open, with no reasonable chance for getting to a real shelter, get off of your Seg because it's tall, and that's bad. Standing up can make you taller than the surrounding area. That's bad too. Crouch down so you're not the highest point. Curl into a ball to minimize the possibility of providing a launch point for "streamers" which reach up from the ground just prior to the strike. Keep feet close together, or touching, to minimize voltage across your body due to ground currents.



http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/...d_currents.htm

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/..._lightning.pdf

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/..._lightning.pdf

Well, I am not the only bloviator here.

1. I never dismissed the technical aspects of the crouching position. I said several times it may be electrical appropriate, but not appropriate to tell older mobility impaired people, as crouching in a ditch is more likely to cause discomfort than the far rarer occurrence of being struck by lightening.

2. The OP did not set the scenario where she was alone on a plain, with no shelter or other opportunities. She set the scenario where she was gliding home from church. Unless her church is a wide open field, and and she only also has wide open fields between that and her home,... NO, she actually said she was a few blocks from home, that indicates she is in some community with blocks, roads and cross roads. She also indicated with questions that she was gliding between buildings and trees and other tall structures.

So, the presumption that she was in a wide open plain was not supported by her own words. What she said was that she did not have shelter nearby. This is subjective. Perhaps she could have knocked on the door of a nearby house, but not knowing the people who lived there, did not consider it appropriate shelter. I do not know, but neither does the only other poster here.

The Last posting, where it says it is becoming apparent that the official position is that you should not try to stay in the open but run for a safe location surely seems more like my advice than the other poster's. He has maligned me as best as he can, and after thousands of words as why I am ignorant and foolish, and most likely not aware of how electricity works, he has come full circle to say that that the 'official position' is more similar to my advice to go home, or go to safety, than his advice to squat in a ditch in the rain.

One final note.

I was mowing my rear lawn yesterday, and saw the dark clouds gathering, and heard the clap of thunder. I did consider diving off my lawn tractor, and squatting while the rains came, but I resisted. I mowed a bit longer, and when the drops first started coming down, I finished that row, and then drove the tractor to the shed. By the time I backed it in, the downpour was fully engaged.

I ran to my camper that happened to have the awning out... I ran to the next shelter from the rain, and eventually got back to my back porch, where I found the dog, waiting to come in, under a roof over hang.

The two of us (dog and I) went into the house, and waited for the rain to pass.

On some level I wonder if my life would have been different if I just squatted there in my back yard and waited it out. I suspect not much different. But, had my wife been home, she may have been tempted to call those guys with the white coats and the giant butterfly net...:)

I should know better.

Lily's original post asks, "I understand that auto tires will insulate you from lightning, but what is safe if you get caught in a storm on your seg? Common sense says avoid if at all possible.. But some of these storms are coming up pretty fast and I'm not always that close to either home or shelter, so safety tips would be welcome.

This general statement/question is somehow conflated with a single example (coming home from church) that Lily provides a couple of posts later.

I provided the best information that I could find about what to do if you're caught in the open with a lightning storm approaching, with no reasonable chance for getting to a real shelter. Apparently, the thought of being caught in a bad situation is beyond comprehension, for some.

The only other "advice" is to dismiss pretty much everything suggested by lightning experts (because they are "bureaucrats" who will write/say anything whatsoever just to get published}, followed by sarcastic comments about cows on Segs, and not-so-humorous stories about coming in out of the rain.

Such comments, devoid of useful content, take up space, but do not provide answers to Lily's questions, or anyone else's. I took Lily's request for information as serious. Others essentially laughed at her concerns, because they believe (based on a faulty understanding of statistics), that nobody should be concerned about lightning. This thinking is similar to blithely swimming among a group of hungry feeding sharks, because you "know" that shark attacks are statistically so rare. Poor critical thinking is resolved by nature, given enough time. One can only hope that it doesn't slop over to other people before such resolution.

I'm happy to help Lily.

LOL. Yes it was a serious question. I simply didn't want to be a rolling lightning rod. I had no idea it would keep so many so well occupied!

You are happy to offer one and only one solution, and berate anyone else who offers a different slant on the solution.

Why have I suggested that squatting in ditches for this questioner is not appropriate? Because it is not appropriate.

Why have you never commented on the likelihood of your suggestion to squat in ditches will cause more discomfort and damage to this woman than going home on her segway, when you also posted that your experts have started to realize there is no safety in being exposed, and the appropriate thing to do is go to shelter?

I think it is beyond your comfort level to think of whom you are answering questions to.

Again, I challenge you to answer my simple question.

Is squatting in a ditch more likely to offer discomfort or danger to a mobility impaired older person than going home in that same storm?

Why are you so unable or unwilling to answer that simple question?

I could try to answer the questions above, but the questions themselves stem from faulty understanding of the situations, and I have already answered most of them several times, seemingly without being able to convey any understanding.

Take this gem as an example: I have repeated stated that the advice of taking the lightning safety position (squatting in a ditch) is an answer to "...if you're in a dangerously exposed location, and not able escape, outrun, or shelter indoors from the storm, what are your best options?" This is apparently beyond comprehension, as KSAGAL consistently conflates "dangerously exposed and not able to escape" to ridiculous would-be analogies, such as simply going inside his house when it starts raining in his yard. A coherent discussion cannot be had when one party steadfastly clings to personal beliefs, and refuses to consider the circumstances under discussion.

This failure of understanding and imagination is seen in the position stated in KSAGAL's very first post on this topic:

Apart from essentially dismissing Lily's concerns as insignificant, KSAGAL goes on to misrepresent the likelihood of being struck by lightning, while in a lightning storm (on Segway or not), as having fantastically low odds, similar to winning the lottery. It is this dogged failure of understanding that leads him to twist my position of being caught in a lightning storm to his position of "coming in out of the rain".

This closely-held personal belief then leads to him to conclude that "This is a most ridiculous suggestion that coming in out of the rain is the same as swimming with a group of hungry feeding sharks.", thus demonstrating again that he does not understand the basic issues, that getting caught, exposed in the open, in a lightning storm is a HIGH RISK situation. This ain't "coming in out of the rain", and general statistics about the rarity of lightning strikes (or shark bites) do not apply. As with getting shark-bit, one's risk of being struck by lightning can be MUCH higher, depending on the situation, which KSAGAL seems unwilling to consider.

Armed with the best information of lightning experts, Lily, and anyone else who happens to read this, can make their own decision (you know...they can take personal responsibility) about what action to take if they are caught in a bad situation. Armed with real information (instead of personal beliefs only) they can make their OWN decision about whether to run for it or not. They can decide for themselves whether it's better to have a little knee pain from hunkering down in a lightning storm, or to significantly increase their likelihood of being struck by lightning and having a lifetime of neurological difficulties....assuming they survive.

I believe very much in taking personal responsibility, but I also believe that not being appropriately informed before making an important decision is just dumb.

Lots of ranting, lots of lies, lots of saying what I believe when simply reading what I said would tell the truth, and even dis-owning what he said about swimming with sharks.

And still never answering my continual question, if he believes that Lily is more likely to be injured or discomforted by squatting in a ditch or being struck by lightening on any particular day, in any particular thunderstorm, or on any particular segway outing.

The fact that ranting with mis-information is the choice, instead of simply answering the simple question says all that needs to be said.

Frankly, I am amazed at having to argue with an adult about taking actions to help prevent death or injury due to lightning. In addition, I am aware that everything I write below is clearly available from my multiple prior posts. I hold no illusions that re-writing them again (in different form, with smaller words), will have any effect whatsoever on fixed beliefs.

However:

1. I believe any person standing (or riding a Seg) in an open place in a lightning storm is much more likely to be struck by lightning. Standing in an open place during a lightning storm is precisely like swimming with hungry sharks, with respect to useless statistics which do not take a specific high risk situation into account. Both circumstances are high risk, and are not represented by a general statistical mean. Thankfully, most humans are more capable of understanding the realities of the situation, than were the electrocuted cows. What would you do, KSAGAL? Caught in the open in a lightning storm, do you go with cow-thinking, ignore the storm, and glide on, fearlessly?

2. I believe any person who takes the "lighting safety position" in a ditch during a lightning storm will be less likely to be struck by lightning than standing upright in the open, and if struck, will be more likely to survive with lesser injuries. There is wide agreement from severe storm scientists about this. What would you do, KSAGAL?

3. I believe squatting in a ditch in a lightning storm is not comfortable for anyone. Similarly, I believe the interrupting one's afternoon swim because of hungry sharks is "inconvenient". However, the reality of the danger of the specific situation may dictate having to endure some discomfort and inconvenience.

4. I believe that discomfort (or inconvenience) is hugely trumped by strong threat of death or injury. Disagree, KSAGAL?

5. Consequently, if caught in the open in a lightning storm, I strongly believe in the relative safety of the "lightning safety position" to help protect me from death or serious injury. In that situation, temporary discomfort doesn't even play a small part in my decision. What would you do, KSAGAL?

Others may feel differently than I do. Feel free to stand on a hill or ride your Seg though a storm, while lightning is crackling overhead. The ageless ignominy of a future Darwin Award awaits.

You still have not answered my question, but you add your own. How narcissistic.

I know you are afraid to answer the simple question, "Do you think that Lily is more likely to hurt herself in a lightening storm gliding home from church, between buildings and trees, by squatting in ditch or by being struck by lightening?" Still, I would like you to marshal up the courage and fortitude to answer it honestly.

As for yours...

1. I agree, standing on a segway in a local lightening storm is more likely to get you struck than squatting in a ditch, however if doing it while gliding between buildings and trees, then the advantage is nullified.

So, in the situation presented by the OP, I would glide home.

2. I agree that the squatting position is safer than the standing upright in the scenario offered, but again, that is only a construct of yours, never presented by the OP.

Also, I would not suggest it is safer to do anything that cannot be done by the recipient of my advice to do it. That is disrespectful. I would not suggest to a person in a wheelchair they should run away up the stairs to escape a flood, while I might suggest it to an able bodied person. To the wheelchaired person, I might suggest another escape route, or a way to avoid the flood.

So, while it might be safer to squat than stand in this situation, I might not suggest it to this person, nor myself, and rather take the suggestion that you quoted that a safer position in a thunder storm is not safe, and that she, me and others should head for shelter.

3. Squatting in the ditch may not be comfortable for most, but is actually much worse for some than others. Much like suggesting a person take a 75 pound weight up a flight of stairs. Not comfortable for most, but actually dangerous to try for others.

The reference to swimming with sharks is just too stupid to respond to.

4. You have still never answered my question about this particular poster relative to your squatting suggestion. I cannot answer this question until we quantify the actual threats involved.

I believe that this particular poster, and myself as well, would definitely would be more likely to hurt them self by trying to squat in a ditch than simply glide home. Since the squatting will definitely hurt some of us, and the likelihood of actually being struck by lightening even if standing upright on the suggested glide home, is still pretty low. Considering the definate hurt from one squatting, and the unlikely far more dangerous injury (still only 10% die from a stike) I might still suggest they glide home. I know I would.

5. What would I do? I would find it unlikely to be there in the first place, as I do not frequent wide open plains, in thunder storms or not. If I were actually caught in a wide open space, in the middle of a locally hitting lightening storm, and had no escape, I would strive to lower my profile, and would not do this by placing my feet very far apart. But, again, as I have said over and over, the advice may be relatively good, but that does not make it germane to the poster.

Again, you are introducing straw men to this thread, over and over. No one other than you has suggested gliding over hills or even just standing around in a lightening storm. Going home is not the same as standing around or cresting hills for the sake of it.

Much like swimming with feed frenzied sharks has no place in this conversation, as it is another of your straw men, that was created in your own mind, simply as an example of what not to do. Then you intimated, without any validity, that I said or felt it was okay to do.

It is time for you to up your game, or loose me as a sparring partner.

Ok guys! I seem to have started this. May I please end it?

I can't speak for Lily. I am not familiar with her disabilities, her gliding destinations and habits, etc. i simply answered her questions.

I assumed she was perfectly capable of making her own decisions and expressing her own views. I was not aware that she needed KSAGAL to defend her, nor that she had authorized KSAGAL to speak on her behalf. My apologies, Lily.

I never considered you as a sparring partner.. That suggests a type of relationship that does not exist. I'd hate to "loose" such a skilled and erudite debater, but i've already tried my best. Unfortunately, I've had zero success in cutting through the fog. I'm sure we will all be sorry to read no more of your insights on lightning, statistcs, and personal safety, but I am certain that we will all be greatly entertained by your equally well informed and logically precise posts on every other topic.

Have a nice day.

Yes you may. I feel you simply asked a question, and started nothing, but as you requested it to end, this shall be my last posting on this thread.

I hope you did get some useful data.

I wish all sunny skies, and the wind at your backs...

Stay out of ditches!
 

As a person with a disability I would counsel Lily to stay out of ditches...the probability of drowning in even small amounts of water vastly exceeds that of being struck by lightning.

Seek shelter under some suitable structure (not under a tree) or indoors as quickly as possible...common sense really.

Just for the record! In the situation that sparked all this, My route home from church is on sidewalks and street. There are tall trees most of the way and buildings (not tall, this is a very small town.). There is a ditch along part of the way which fills quickly with water, but is shallow enough that you'd have to work to drown in it. There are homes where I know the folks along a good share of the way which is just about two blocks. Oh, yes, I can get off my seg to hunker in the ditch. Getting up again can be done...but not gracefully!

I think I'll just head for home in most cases..or wait til the storm blows over. Or just use common sense! Thanks to all!

Severe storm professionals say that many structures that keep rain off your head don't do much to protect you from lightning. Homes and businesses have plumbing and wiring that will tend to provide a path for lightning, thus helping to protect occupants. (Which is why you stay off the land line phone and out of the shower during a lightning storm). Being outside of a home or business, such as on a porch, doesn't provide the same protection. If you're outside such a building, depending on where the lightning strikes, it may go through you to get to the pipes and wiring. Hard top automobiles are pretty good shelters too.

However, if lightning strikes a picnic shelter (just as an example of a minimal structure), the lightning finds a path from the top of the structure to the earth beneath, sometimes following the structure, and sometimes arcing, and a human standing under it could still be in that path. Not to mention that such a building won't have much positive impact on the effects of a nearby ground strike.

Again, folks, the advice I posted was for the situation where one is caught in the open with no recourse for better shelter. Maybe the person is too far from any shelter. Maybe the storm is coming up too fast to outrun. The professional advice is that when the "flash-to-thunder" time is 25 seconds or less, you are at potential risk. Of course, that risk increases as the storm gets closer.

The "lightning safety position" is the final, desperate, survival technique for the situation where you have no other good options. It doesn't require being in a ditch (or ravine or whatever). Being lower than the surrounding area just makes it less likely you'll get struck. If you CAN get to a good shelter before you're within range of the storm, then by all means do so. If you think you shouldn't go into a ditch for personal reasons, then don't. However, continuing to glide through a storm is asking for it.

Your life. Your decision. Know the facts.

Caves
 

Yes...of course...I recommend caves

look... water is a good conductor of electricity people on or in or near water are among those most at risk during thunderstorms....stay out of ditches...

here's some good advice...travel with a tall companion....preferably someone you're not fond of....and if you can get them to wear a tin foil head gear of some sort all the better!

LOL. Good advice!