Segway Fires Sale Staff

[slide4less]

I just talked to my rep he got a call this morning saying he and the rest of the sales staff have no job Segway didnt call us with any info but we will call on tuesday and see if we can get any info will post more when we find out

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[slide4less]

Even the VP of Sales is gone ???????

slide4less

[Itsi Atkins]

Has anyone else heard this news.

[Dragan]

Steve,
You've got mail!
Wayne

Segway of Alberta - Calgary
www.mysegway.ca

[W9GFO]

Does anybody else have mail or is it just Steve?

The Un-Official Segway Battery FAQ
http://www.spinfoot.com/SegwayBatteryFAQ.html

[X-man]

The new machines are such a hot item and even though the factory is working at full capacity they can't fill demand for the machines. New plants are opening in Texas and California to alleviate the situation and they hope to fulfill all current orders by Second Quarter 2007. NOT!!!!
Who needs a sales force?


Bob.

Where goeth I, goeth my Segway.

[snksegway]

Knew the rep in NJ wa leaving, but thought it was his decision.

[Dragan]

W9FGO, Sorry, wasn't trying to be secretive or elitist, or anything! I was just interested to know
whether or not Steve in Oakland has the same rep as we do.
Wayne

Segway of Alberta - Calgary
www.mysegway.ca

[ElectraGlide]

The Sales Force got fired ???

( Did anyone even notice ??? )

Steve

[segtownmst]

Out of ignorance on my behalf, from an end-user's standpoint, does this really effect us all that much? I mean, yes we can sit here and analyze the business ramafications until the days end, but we keep saying "why don't they do things differently than what they see doesnt work?" Well, maybe this is the first step towards that direction?

Just my two cents.
Matt

[JIMBO]

This is a re-organization to better serve the dealer community, which as we all know has evolved from basically nothing within the last year. In my opinion as one of the leading dealers in the nation, this is a very good move on Jim Norrod's part. I anticipated, agree and support these changes fully. In fact the regions are being rearranged and additional inside support is being added. This is GREAT news for all dealers and will result in better service for all Segway enthusiasts.


Jim Headley
Segway Orange County
~ STEP UP ! ~

[Stan671]

Thanks for the perspective on that, Jim. Interesting times ahead ...

Stan Dobrowski

[GyroGo]

hmmm, methinks every organization selling something needs at least one salesman, whatever title called by.

Dealers need contacts in the org in addition to customer service. Are these people gone? Which organization functions still exist that promote and service delivery to the market channel?

[Stewbonz]

I'm suprised not to have recieved a return email from service for a couple of days.
Unusual.


JEFF JARVIS
http://www.thailandsegwaytours.com/

[Dragan]

We (the dealers) were advised of the changes this morning via email. While there has been significant reorganization in the ranks of the sales team, most of the names moving into new positions are long time employees of Segway LLC. I know several of them personally, and the new sales team will do a tremendous job, of that I have no doubt
Wayne

Segway of Alberta - Calgary
www.mysegway.ca

[Segway of St. Louis]

By sales team what we are talking about are regional reps that support us dealers. Realignment is what I see. And more support on the inside.

With a new CEO one would expect changes. Nothing earth shattering or bad here. And a few high level hirings where announced as well.

All good. And we can't get enough Segs. I thing we have like one P, one I180 and one XT to sell and that is it!



Jeff Bach
Segway of St. Louis
636-754-4000

[Dragan]

Jeff's right, the inside support levels being pumped up do us nothing but good. We were the same way as Segway of St Louis, down to having nothing but demos in the store, but this week things started to change. I've recieved 5 new 180's and more on the way soon. It's all good!
Wayne

Segway of Alberta - Calgary
www.mysegway.ca

[GyroGo]

Well, cutting costs is good, and nothing wrong with a good re-org. It may be job title semantics, but if "support" is taking orders from the dealers, they are serving a sales function along with their other duties, so sales is not completely gone (as was my initial impression from the thread). But I don't know if cutting sales reps has any direct bearing on production and shipping backorders.

[junio1r]

As an owner it makes me nervous that the 4th CEO in 3 years changes course...again. Haven't they tried the national accounts approach? Didn't work so they went to dealers last year. Now back to national accounts. I'm just hoping there is someone around to service my machine if I ever have a problem.

[SegwayTerri]

Segway Dealers:

If you have not already done so, please contact Pam and get a password to the dealer-only chat forum. This is a topic that should be presented in that forum and not in the general forums.

I am personally thrilled with the reorganization. It was a very positive move on Segway's part and will be a huge plus for the dealers, which in turn will be good for our customers. I am behind Segway LLC 110%.

Terri
Segway of Dayton

[junio1r]

Like I said, I hope you dealers are still around if I ever need my machine serviced.

[yosgof]

Dragan (and others),

Perhaps you (the dealers) can use this opportunity to tell Segway LLC tha we (the plain folk) would like to see more marketing.

I bought the thing and I just want to enjoy it. Don't want to be an ambassador, don’t want to be an evangelist, don’t want to be a demo provider and don’t want to be ridiculed.

I just want the manufacturer to stand up to the task and improve the perceived value of its brand and products.

Did I mention marketing?


- Yossi
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3365119-lg.jpg

[mario-ramos]

By the way, the list keeps growing:
http://www.segway.com/segway/business_customers.html
Mario Ramos

[panderso]

pretty impressive list...

[terryp]

I don't see Chicago's O'Hare or Midway airports on the list, and I believe they have a couple dozen between them.

Segway - What's holding you up?

[Brooster]

I suspect there's probably closer to a dozen between the two Chicago airports, and to be honest the cops don't ride them all that much. I've seen them sitting up against the wall at the little police kiosks, but I have yet to see one actually being used at either of the airports. LadyBroo (a flight attendant) has seen one being used once at O'Hare, but that's it.

The Chicago Police are said to have between 50 or 60 Segs, but I sure as heck never see them here along the lakefront. X-man lived closer to the downtown area before he moved to Utah and reported seeing a few cops on them in that area, but I have yet to see a cop on a Seg outside of SegwayFest 2003 at McCormick Place.

As for Segway LLC sacking their entire sales staff, I'll say what I've said before: Desperate people make desperate decisions. The "real" sales staff--from Day One and by deliberate design--was, is, and will continue to be, you and me ... the people who have paid big bucks for that dubious distinction.

It's why Segs still aren't selling well nearly 2-1/2 years after their release to the consumer market. I know that a few dealers are reporting great demand. I'll believe that Segs are selling well when I begin to see them on the sidewalks and along the lakefront of the nation's third-largest city. So far, I'm seeing zero.

I hope Norrod doesn't turn out to be another nimrod, and that Segway finally gets it together in what's left of the 2004 season. I hate to see people lose their jobs (I've been there myself, and it sucks), but perhaps this is what needed to happen at this juncture. Some meaningful and consistent marketing would be a good next step, and might actually interest a few of us "unpaid salespersons" in getting out and helping the company like we tried to do in the early days. Many of us, myself included, finally just gave up.

Bear in mind that it's not just the string of CEO's and former Bentley Motorcars and Dell Computer execs who are to blame for Segway's failure to sell its products. The ultimate blame lies with the people who hired them--Segway's Board of Directors (the investors)--and their steadfast refusal to market their product.







Brooster

[Mr_Laurenzano]

nice Broo. Really Nice.

Segway-
Half the speed of a car,
Twice as Smart.

[terryp]

I'm sure you speak for many of us Broo.

BTW, I've been told by several people that they've seen Segs at O'Hare, and an article in the Fairbanks Newsminer last month (describing their police department's testing of an HT) claimed that O'Hare owns 17 of them.

Segway - What's holding you up?

[Brooster]

I don't know if that's a shot or a compliment Mr. L.

All I can do is do my best to tell the truth, and that's pretty much it, my man.

Brooster

[Itsi Atkins]

Brooster, don't give up! Spoke to the new CFO today and Jim, Things are going to start real soon in many ways and will be able to tell everyone very soon.

[Mr_Laurenzano]

That was the highest compliment, Im from california we talk funny out here. I have been watching your post since the biggining and never have I had a reason for taking a shot at you.
Sweet Broo. You hit the nail right on the head.

Segway-
Half the speed of a car,
Twice as Smart.

[Brooster]

Thanks man. I try. :)

Terry, If there's 17 Segs at O'Hare it's news to me. Of course most if not all are out on the concourses beyond TSA security, and I don't get out there all that much these days. But you'd sure think LadyBroo would be seeing them if there are that many and they're being used. She walks those concourses a lot.

Brooster

[X-man]

The last time I passed through Midway I actually saw a CPD person on a unit but didn't talk to him because I was busy at TSA, putting my shoes back on.
Then I got on my Segway and headed for the gate,

Bob.

Where goeth I, goeth my Segway.

[yosgof]

Brooster,

Can't agree more.

I think initially Segway thought it would be a "viral" marketing thing (You have one -> I see one -> I must have one -> I immediately buy one).

At these prices viral just doesn't work.

- Yossi
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3365119-lg.jpg

[legpain]

One thing is for certain, I bought my truck from a dealer that I saw an ad from, not because Chrysler built the thing. Chrysler built it, the dealer advertised it, and sold it to me. I believe the dealers ought to be the advertisers and sellers “just like real life”!

John

[Mr. Protocol]

Around here, they are. I think Jason of Segway LA spends half his life running around doing behind-the-scenes marketing to various target groups. He'll be out when we start our group glide today, attending something in Pasadena. For a low-key guy he works like a Trojan.

[Brooster]

quote:Originally posted by yosgof

I think initially Segway thought it would be a "viral" marketing thing (You have one -> I see one -> I must have one -> I immediately buy one).

At these prices viral just doesn't work.


I think that's a good part of it. But along with the "seeing" part there are the questions, the demo rides, etc. Back when the LLC had at least a few "ticket to ride" events and we had reason to believe that they'd do some "real" marketing in due time (which, of course, they never did at all), I was happy to go out of my way to help answer questions and give demo rides to complete strangers. Not any more ... not my job. I mean I'm not rude about it or anything. If someone has a question, I'll try to answer it, but I don't go out of my way to expose my Seg to the masses simply for the sake of exposure.

Brooster

[Brooster]

quote:Originally posted by legpain

I believe the dealers ought to be the advertisers and sellers “just like real life”!


There's certainly nothing wrong with dealers doing their own advertising and marketing. But I'd ask you to remember that "in real life," auto manufacturers spend HUGE money on marketing their products. I'd also ask you to remember that just a year ago, most Segway dealerships didn't yet exist. It took a long time for Segway LLC to cave in and acknowledge the idea that dealerships were even needed in the first place. People were lining up and waving their hats to become dealers in the very early days, and the LLC didn't want them. The people at Segway LLC (or their Board of Directors) were still convinced that the world was going to beat the proverbial path to their door, either over the phone with credit cards in hand or through amazon.com. That obviously didn't happen.

Brooster

[yosgof]

Local advertising and marketing should supplement nation-wide campaigns - not replaces them all together.

This is true for a small country like Israel. It is ten times true for the US.

- Yossi
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3365119-lg.jpg

[X-man]

GM needs to add $1400 to each unit for health benefits.
What is the relative cost for LLC?


Bob.

Where goeth I, goeth my Segway.

[KSagal]

I have to agree with those that have said that LLC has the lion's share of marketing responsibilites.

In the case of vehicles, the auto manufacturing companies spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year, comparing their cars to other cars. The primary thrust of the marketing is not to convince you to buy a car, but to get you to buy OUR car. The market for cars already exists.

Local advertising, which focuses on "come buy THIS car, NOW" is different from marketing which is less focused...

As far as Segways, it is not entirely appropriate to compare to cars anyway. That market is well established and there is no need to convince people that a car would be good for them, or even to explain what a car is...

In it most basic form, I would think that the national/international marketing from Segway LLC would be to introduce and educate the general public as to just what a segway is and how it works, and how it can be used to help in your daily life...

Local/regional advertising by the dealer network would be to further focus the applications in an area and to say, "Buy Your Segway HERE!"

Just the way I see it...

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[Stewbonz]

"In it most basic form, I would think that the national/international marketing from Segway LLC would be to introduce and educate the general public as to just what a segway is and how it works, and how it can be used to help in your daily life..."

Karl,
I recently purchased a Hi-Fi magazine.
Inside was a free DVD from a loudspeaker manufacturer, showing the design, engineering, manufacturing and use of the product.
I was impressed at what went into the making of the speaker and definitly would consider this company when shopping for Hi-Fi gear.

Alot of us here are enthusiasts and have read the Kemper book or follow the activities of Dean Kamen, etc..
If the average person could meet the designers, see the carefully made components being put together, see the machine in action, and be told where they can get a free test ride, it could help sell the product.
Bring back Dean Kamen.








JEFF JARVIS
http://www.thailandsegwaytours.com/

[Brooster]

Here's a really good reminder of why there need to be big changes at Segway LLC if this company is going to survive. Not so long ago, someone (or a few "someones") at the LLC actually thought this was a good idea.

http://www.ad-awards.com/home.php

Click on Directory (at bottom of page)
Click on Vehicles
Click on Segway



Brooster

[yosgof]

Brooster,

Other than Itzi serving as a mediator and a relay is there any other way to directly approach Segway LLC in any meaningful way?

- Yossi
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3365119-lg.jpg

[SegwayUtah]

Personal contact is always meaningful.

http://www.segway.com/general/contact_information.html

Chris

[yosgof]

Chris,

That's exactly what I did not have in mind (a bunch of e-mail addresses and a corporate ask-anything-get-no-answers-toll-free-phone). Personal contacts are indeed always meaningful and in this day and age most companies provide their customers with more interactive ways to communicate. Usually it is done via support web sites where actual people answer actual questions in a timely manner.

Reading postings on this forum I got the felling that Segway LLC seldom answers anything sent its way.

BTW, I have not tried it first hand yet because I am not officially an owner and that's because the delivery date of my I180 keeps getting bumped. Of these e-mails who do you think I should write to in order to address this problem?


- Yossi
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3365119-lg.jpg

[Brooster]

Yossi,

Check your e-mail.

Brooster

[pam]

One thing that you may or may not know, Yosgof, is that Segway employees read the chat - have since it's inception. They're VERY well aware of our opinions on this subject.
Pam

[JohnG]

Meaningful how?

There aren't "answers" to a lot of these issues, just a lot of people's differing opinions. Segway is well aware of how some of its most vocal critics feel on these issues.

John


--
All views expressed here are my own, not necessarily those of my employer or others. Check out http://grohol.com/.

[SegwayUtah]

quote:Originally posted by pam

One thing that you may or may not know, Yosgof, is that Segway employees read the chat - have since it's inception. They're VERY well aware of our opinions on this subject.

Pam,

Are you sure? I do know that some Segway employees read this site as frequently as us near the beginning, but I can't imagine that too many of them keep up these days considering how depressing the conversations get around here some days.

And unfortunately (or fortunately!), while we are a large group of owners and pretty much _the_ place to be for anything Segway-related, I can't imagine that we are becoming anything other than a smaller and smaller group of owners by the day, percentage-wise.

BTW, thanks for keeping things in line around here. It's not a job that gets much appreciation, but it's appreciated.

Chris

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by jgrohol

Meaningful how?

There aren't "answers" to a lot of these issues, just a lot of people's differing opinions. Segway is well aware of how some of its most vocal critics feel on these issues.

John


--
All views expressed here are my own, not necessarily those of my employer or others. Check out http://grohol.com/.



That's what gets me about all these armchair critics who "know best" how Segway LLC should be run--or how it MUST be running. They expect to just waltz in, grab their 180 which is just sitting there, and pay $2K for it, the price they think they should pay because $5K is just too much, and then fire all the executives because everybody knows they're all incompetent crooks, anyway.

Has any one of these people stopped to think how they would feel if some character called them up complaining how they ran their business? Oh yeah. That'd be just lovely. Let's hear it for "personal contacts". Just imagine how much work you'd get done if you had to talk to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who wanted some "personal contact".




"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[KSagal]

Yossi has a point, with regard to wanting to have input to the manufacturer...

I surely do not want to be a Segway LLC appologist, but much of what is said here is said in ignorance...

I have never had a negative direct experience with any staffer at Segway LLC. I have met many, and though normal communication errors or mistakes are made, ALL the people I have dealt with have been curteous and helpful. I have met with sales, service, support, engineering, and top management over the few years that I have had or wanted a segway. I first met with and spoke on the phone with these people when I was attempting to purchase my seg...

I have also posted that I worked harder to have the opportunity to buy a seg than I ever had to to buy anything in the past... I have characterized it as, On a good day, I allow others to sell me things. This day I had to go and work to buy this segway...

Now, back to marketing. This is different. We all see it from our own perspective. Many of us have vocalized our discontent with the way that segway is marketed. We have offered comments on the merits or demerits of having management changes at LLC. We have commented both positively and more so overwhelmingly negatively on all marketing or, lack thereof, efforts.

I don't sit on the Board of Directors. I am not privy to the inside story at LLC. All I know is what I hear personally and what I read here. This place is not as good a site to hear positive stories as it had been in the past...

I would think that it is a bad idea to make final judgement calls on Segway LLC based entirely on information that comes from this web site...

I agree with SegwayUtah in that this site is frequented by a smaller and smaller percentage of segway owners. Many of the old timers have left for one reason or another. Surely some are tired of the bickering. I believe that more old hats leave because the topics get talked out... The segway, though a great inovation, is just a device, and once you have been on it for a while, and the novelty wears off, it is just another thing that you own...

I love my seg and still talk about it. I also enjoy my electric golf cart that I use to pull stumps, my investment property that I love/hate depending on the day, surely my family, my three cars, my six computers, my hundreds of tools and thousands of other interests. None of this is in order, but it all consumes my time and efforts...

Assigning the marketing strategy for the manufacturer of one of my beloved posessions, then complaining about how they did not take my sage advice is just not high on the list...

I will continue to offer my positions, as long as I am allowed and have time. If they are not seen as wisdom, that is not a reflection on me...

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[Dragan]

I think Dan may have hit it pretty close. As John said, Segway is very well aware of user opinions on almost all issues, either through reading Segchat, or having it passed on to them via email, through dealers comments, etc.

They are no different than any other company; trying to do the best job they can, and produce the best possible product they can, in a timely manner and at an acceptable market price, and profit from it. Capitalism at it's finest.
They can't manage their business by outside opinion any more than anyone else can. Opinions are like belly-buttons; everyone has one, and they all have varying degrees of validity based on how much knowledge the holder has on the issue at hand.

Have they made some decisions that were less than perfect? You bet. Every business has, and good ones learn from them and don't make the same mistakes over and over. Do they listen to their customers? In my experience, probably more so than many businesses I've dealt with over the years. They do take council from their customers, they evaluate it seriously, compare the end result to their business plans and see if there is a fit.

If there is a lack of one to one response to emails, phone calls, etc., personally I think that's somewhat understandable; I'm a pretty small potatoes business guy, and it's really tough to get an answer out to every single email and phone call that I get on a daily basis; imagine the volume that they recieve.

I think we need to keep issues like this in some perspective. If you had dropped 5K on, say a Samsung plasma T.V., and didn't like the way the controls were laid out on the remote, or the color balance wasn't to your liking, or....?? How likely would you expect it to be that the senior executive levels of Samsung would communicate with you directly or via public forum to address your concern? I would guess that you would have a snowballs chance in you-know-where of that happening. With that in mind, look back in this very forum and see how many times Segways senior executives have responded to issues.

I think overall that Segway as a company is pretty reactive to the demands of their customers, compared to a lot of others. Of course there's room for improvement; there always is. There's also room for them to become a Samsung, or G.M., or Microsoft.

Now that I think about it, Bill Gates hasn't responded to a single email I've sent him in.... I don't know how long!
Wayne

Segway of Alberta - Calgary
www.mysegway.ca

[RAG1247]

probably the biggest problem is that after enjoying the segway for a couple of of years, there gets to be very little to talk about. The latest innovation or change is of course the li-on batteries which makes a big difference in gliding - not that someone wants to ride 20+ miles but one feels much better making a 10 mile round trip and having a buffer.

I have purchased 2 P133's, 2 I167's, 2 I170's and now 2 I180's. Typically when a new model comes out where there is something new, I get the new model and sell the old. Fortunately, I have never had any problems with any of the units, other than the fact that my 5 year old yellow lab still can't seem to master the P.

I have made various contacts at LLC over the years and everyone has been courteous and helpful and I consider several to be my friends.

My approach with buying new moels is basically the same with cell phones, computers and digital cameras, but I can assure you that I have never been able to make the contacts with large companies such as Sony as I have with LLC. You can send an email to DK and he actually answers it.

There is really no difference in the I170 and the I180 except for the Li-on battery availability on the I180 and those with I170's will be able to avail themselves of the new battery technology sooner or later when the new batteries are available by themselves.

The biggest difficulty in getting the segway off the ground is the price which prevents the majority of people from ever getting one. Having said that, if the price suddenly became $2900, it might not be the answer, since if you woke up tomorrow and there were 65 segways on your street, the various regulatory agencies then might jump in and curtail usage.

Again, I can't think of any major changes in the design are needed or would suddenly result in increased sales other than the price.

I think the main goal is for llc to keep growing and stay in business so that 3 or 4 years from now, we will be able to get spare parts or service when needed.

LLC did a great job in many states helping them to change their laws or statutes to allow for segway use. If they hadn't done that before actually selling, I wonder where we would be now - possibly riding in our back yards.

Using the segway is fun and in the beginning one finds using it everday or every other day is great. But like anything else, the newness wears off and you move on to other things.



Richard
Ft. Lauderdale

If you can’t change the people around you, change the people around you [img=right]http://www.sonyguy.com/rageagle.jpg[/img=right]

[yosgof]

I see I’m being flamed a bit.

Adobphile – Having the dubious pleasure of being a CEO of a company (much smaller than Segway) I always make a point of listening very well to my customers (even when they tell me how to run my business) and then responding – always responding.

As Karl so eloquently explained there is a great deference between stating one’s opinion and armchair bickering and giving “good” advice. So to make things simle please compare the two:

This is the support I get for my camera: http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?goingto=dtc_options&cat=1&grp=2&productNr=25206 (please do click around a bit)

And this is the support I’ll get for my Segway (once I get it eventually): http://www.segway.com/support/

Do you notice the difference? Are other examples in order?

Oh and yes I do get respones from Microsoft.


- Yossi
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3365119-lg.jpg

[adobephile]

I applaud Karl, Wayne, and Richard for their just-previously-stated respective perspectives, insights, and words of wisdom. I also like to think that they've come forward and have also spoken for the silent majority of happy Segway owners.

I have a good feeling about this new era being ushered in by Segway's new product line.



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by yosgof

I see I’m being flamed a bit.

Adobphile – Having the dubious pleasure of being a CEO of a company (much smaller than Segway) I always make a point of listening very well to my customers (even when they tell me how to run my business) and then responding – always responding.

As Karl so eloquently explained there is a great deference between stating one’s opinion and armchair bickering and giving “good” advice. So to make things simle please compare the two:

This is the support I get for my camera: http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?goingto=dtc_options&cat=1&grp=2&productNr=25206 (please do click around a bit)

And this is the support I’ll get for my Segway (once I get it eventually): http://www.segway.com/support/

Do you notice the difference? Are other examples in order?

Oh and yes I do get respones from Microsoft.


- Yossi
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3365119-lg.jpg


I was NOT flaming you. You'd certainly know it if I were, and Pam would probably have me ousted for good.

I was simply stating my opinion and disagreeing with you in a civil manner. I like you very much and agree with much of what you say. But I am not one to be silent when I have an opinion.

Shalom!



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[KSagal]

Yossi,

Some of the comments you got in response to this thread may have appeared flame-ish, but that is not quite it. (For me)

For years, this was the place to get technical information, supportive response to questions, and good will toward this thing and mindset called 'Segway".

Lately, this forum has been controled by those who are more unhappy than happy with the corporation LLC. This unhappyness has been well expressed, and some of the LLC defenders and old timers got tired. Some even got in trouble for defending themselves. I, myself, have been assulted many times, and it was not controled.

Lately, I have voiced a disapointment with SegAmerica, and was severely sensured. They were not. I was told something that is not true, yet I was deemed to be in the wrong.

I was wrong. I fell to the negativism. I should know better. SO what if someone else does not do what I think they should... I say that and it is done...

Now, back to you. You expressed your exaspiration in having to wait for your 180. You also fell victim to the general malcontent attitude that has consumed much of this forum.

Some of us that enjoy not only our segways, but a fine working relationship with LLC came to their defense. I believe that Segway LLC is a good company with a good effort to produce a good product. Not perfect, but real close...

I responded because I am saddened that a new member to our community, with obviously much to offer, such as yourself, would have been subjected to so much negative expectation without hearing the other side...

I fully suspect that if you try to communicate with LLC you will be satisfied for yourself. I could not let your expectations be set by the negative folks here without at least indicating the other perspective. You will decide for yourself.

Often, we find what we look for. If we look for fun, we find it. If we only look for fault, whe find that...


One last thing. Your camera might break and need a great deal of service in helping you to repair it or even help on knowing how to use it to it's capacity.

Your seg will never break and it does all the work for you, so you will never need any support... (I hope)



Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by KSagal

Yossi,

Some of the comments you got in response to this thread may have appeared flame-ish, but that is not quite it. (For me)

For years, this was the place to get technical information, supportive response to questions, and good will toward this thing and mindset called 'Segway".

Lately, this forum has been controled by those who are more unhappy than happy with the corporation LLC. This unhappyness has been well expressed, and some of the LLC defenders and old timers got tired. Some even got in trouble for defending themselves. I, myself, have been assulted many times, and it was not controled.

Lately, I have voiced a disapointment with SegAmerica, and was severely sensured. They were not. I was told something that is not true, yet I was deemed to be in the wrong.

I was wrong. I fell to the negativism. I should know better. SO what if someone else does not do what I think they should... I say that and it is done...

Now, back to you. You expressed your exaspiration in having to wait for your 180. You also fell victim to the general malcontent attitude that has consumed much of this forum.

Some of us that enjoy not only our segways, but a fine working relationship with LLC came to their defense. I believe that Segway LLC is a good company with a good effort to produce a good product. Not perfect, but real close...

I responded because I am saddened that a new member to our community, with obviously much to offer, such as yourself, would have been subjected to so much negative expectation without hearing the other side...

I fully suspect that if you try to communicate with LLC you will be satisfied for yourself. I could not let your expectations be set by the negative folks here without at least indicating the other perspective. You will decide for yourself.

Often, we find what we look for. If we look for fun, we find it. If we only look for fault, whe find that...


One last thing. Your camera might break and need a great deal of service in helping you to repair it or even help on knowing how to use it to it's capacity.

Your seg will never break and it does all the work for you, so you will never need any support... (I hope)



Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.


Jeezuz Karl! I wish you were running for some office, 'cause I'd damn sure vote for ya!. Seriously, I like the way you say things.



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[hhaurgon]

quote:Originally posted by adobephile

quote:Originally posted by KSagal

Yossi,

Some of the comments you got in response to this thread may have appeared flame-ish, but that is not quite it. (For me)

For years, this was the place to get technical information, supportive response to questions, and good will toward this thing and mindset called 'Segway".

Lately, this forum has been controled by those who are more unhappy than happy with the corporation LLC. This unhappyness has been well expressed, and some of the LLC defenders and old timers got tired. Some even got in trouble for defending themselves. I, myself, have been assulted many times, and it was not controled.

Lately, I have voiced a disapointment with SegAmerica, and was severely sensured. They were not. I was told something that is not true, yet I was deemed to be in the wrong.

I was wrong. I fell to the negativism. I should know better. SO what if someone else does not do what I think they should... I say that and it is done...

Now, back to you. You expressed your exaspiration in having to wait for your 180. You also fell victim to the general malcontent attitude that has consumed much of this forum.

Some of us that enjoy not only our segways, but a fine working relationship with LLC came to their defense. I believe that Segway LLC is a good company with a good effort to produce a good product. Not perfect, but real close...

I responded because I am saddened that a new member to our community, with obviously much to offer, such as yourself, would have been subjected to so much negative expectation without hearing the other side...

I fully suspect that if you try to communicate with LLC you will be satisfied for yourself. I could not let your expectations be set by the negative folks here without at least indicating the other perspective. You will decide for yourself.

Often, we find what we look for. If we look for fun, we find it. If we only look for fault, whe find that...


One last thing. Your camera might break and need a great deal of service in helping you to repair it or even help on knowing how to use it to it's capacity.

Your seg will never break and it does all the work for you, so you will never need any support... (I hope)



Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.


Jeezuz Karl! I wish you were running for some office, 'cause I'd damn sure vote for ya!. Seriously, I like the way you say things.



"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com


Get a room.

Hugh

[yosgof]

Karl,

Thank you for making an excellent point and indeed (as Adobephile has dully noticed) you do have a way with words!

I totally agree with your observation on the negative effects of negativity. I think that in my case you are preaching to the preacher though. I am perhaps as pro Segway as one can get. In fact I am probably the granddaddy of all early adopters. To the best of my knowledge I am the first to buy a Segway in Israel just for the fun of it. I’ve ordered my I180 as soon as (and probably sooner than) Segway Israel were ready to take orders on this product. So I am definitely not trying to be negative. On the contrary, I am trying to assume a very positive attitude and provide some constructive criticism.

The example I have given (with my camera which is from Nikon and never brakes – only keeps being upgraded and getting better) may not have been just the right one. So at the risk of exhausting your patience I will try with yet another one.

I own a bike which is manufactured by Specialized (http://www.specialized.com). These guys are the ones who invented mountain bikes. Their web site has a forum on which you can ask anything and be provided with an answer in a matter of hours. Be it queries about nuts and bolts or suggestions for next year’s models. They listen, they respond and sometimes they even implement. That’s no small brand; they are probably bigger than Segway LLC. Yet because they are on the cutting edge of their trade, they listen and respond. They can not afford not to.

As some people said here, after owning a Segway for a while the novelty wears off and it becomes yet another thing. Nothing new to say, nothing to contribute. Triple that with a mountain bike, and yet they listen and respond. (They also market a lot but I’ll save it to another posting).

No such channel is provided by Segway LLC. Brooster has sent me a hint on how I should go, yet this whole “I personally know people at LLC and they are really nice” attitude just doesn’t cut it for me. I want to very impersonal, not know anybody there, just ask, suggest and get a response.

At present I haven’t yet approached Segway directly as I am sure Segway Israel are doing their best to secure an I180 for me. I am also quite sure that Segway will no be bothered too much by a guy in a Middle Eastern backwards country the sales potential of which is comparable to a small sized city in the US. I’ll just have to wait and see.

One thing though, if Pam is right and the guys at Segway LLC are indeed reading this forum they sure have their “deaf and mute routine” well rehearsed.


- Yossi
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3365119-lg.jpg

[RAG1247]

Yossi

with all due respect, what do you want llc to do?

I think they listen, but I don't feel much can be done or should be done with the present design. The new batteries are a great advantage.

as far as you wanting an "impersonal response", I myself which much rather be able to talk to someone that I have met and know than just a name at llc.

you state that llc has a deaf ear. what are they not doing that you would like them to do?

we all have our opinions and are entitled to express them - and I think you will find that llc personnel do follow segwaychat. However if a number of us start requesting green I180's, I don't think that means that llc should immediately offer a green model



Richard
Ft. Lauderdale

If you can’t change the people around you, change the people around you [img=right]http://www.sonyguy.com/rageagle.jpg[/img=right]

[yosgof]

Richard,

Not a green Segway but something much simpler. I want to be able to attach a water bottle holder to a Segway without improvising or getting Karl's stuff on eBay.

How should I ask Segway about that? (This is just an example of course).

- Yossi
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3365119-lg.jpg

[Brooster]

quote:Originally posted by jgrohol

There aren't "answers" to a lot of these issues, just a lot of people's differing opinions.


There absolutely ARE answers to almost any problem, and finding those answers starts with Segway LLC opening its eyes and listening instead of burying its collective head in the sand and hoping things get better.

I can't possibly count the number of good ideas I've seen contibuted by SegwayChat members since this Web community was established. I myself just tried to offer an answer above, when I suggested that a consistent and meaningful marketing program would be a good next step.

Here's what WON'T solve Segway's problems:

--Complaining that there are no answers. I've heard this before.

--Wasting time and other resources on absolutely assinine projects like the "crawl" commercial.

--Hiring management personnel who have no real background with the product, no deep passion for the product, and no appreciation for Dean's original vision for the product.

--Not providing marketing people with the authority or the resources to do their jobs.

--Firing passionate and top-quality people.

--Perpetuating a culture of secrecy and non-communication, and creating an air of "we're doing you a favor" every time something is communicated.

--Expecting others to do your work for you. This community has gone above and beyond the call in trying to spread the good word and create a positive public image for the Segway HT. We've showed up at trainings and Ticket-to-Ride events to help give demos and offer real-life owner testimonials. We've offered interviews to the media. We've organized (and paid for) SegwayFests. We've given demos to strangers on the street. How many bicycle or car owners would do that? As a friend once put it, we've carried a lot of buckets of water up the hill. It's not our fault if Segway LLC finds itself in a challeging position.

We've carried our weight, many times over, and fully earned the right to express our disappointment. There will always be those who don't enjoy hearing the truth when the truth isn't so rosy.

There's one way for Segway LLC and its Board of Directors to turn things around and make a big success of this company if it's not already too late. Wake up, stand up, accept responsibity for your own future, be proactive, and MAKE it happen.

If that happens, I'm sure you'll see a lot more of us standing fully behind you. The 2005 season is now nearly 1/2 over. "Get Moving."



--

Brooster

[pam]

Let's see, how many times have people on SC said, "Segway needs a good consistent marketing program" - probably only 500 or so (and frequently the same people over and over) LOL.

Yossi, you are not the first to come up with this, by a long shot. But remember, it's all opinions, and what makes something good for one person may not make it good for another. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as it doesn't devolve into a flame war {g}. (Then they can still have their opinion, but just not express it LOL.)
Brooster has his opinions, and I have mine, they're different, and I don't know which is really right or wrong. And I still value Brooster as a person, a gentleman and a scholar. {g}

In my opinion, Segway is neither deaf nor blind to our opinions/input. They're working their way through their own corporate growth patterns, and where it is appropriate, those opinions come to fruition. One thing I see is that we all love the HT so much we want it all NOW. {g}.

I remember LOTS of people early on who wanted stand-alone Segway stores. I remember how upset people were when there was a Lexus dealership selling Segways. Or all the ones who were upset with moving into the Brookstone stores. Well, it took some time, but it happened. We now have independent dealers, which brings its own group of advantages and disadvantages. LLC is a small company, in a major growth phase. It's not Ford or GM. It's a LONG way from being SONY or Apple. It takes time, but changes do happen.

Segway does work with focus groups. The crawl ad was handled through a focus group and never became a national advertising campaign. I don't think we can blame Segway because someone offered it to them. Segway didn't put it on the advertising website.

Managers all come with their history behind them. Some can offer things that are not available in the existing culture of the company. (Lord knows, they don't have a lot of ex-Segway managers available to choose from {G}, they've got to go outside the company.) That's not necessary a bad thing, IMHO. For any company to survive, they have to grow and change, they have to adapt to the environment. I see LLC doing this. It may not be in a way that you or someone else would want it to happen, but I see it happening - along with a sincere focus on keeping the customers safe - which is MORE than I see with some other companies.

I can't speak to staffing issues - and it's not my place to do so. Only LLC knows the history behind each decision they make, and to the best of my knowledge the decisions they've made have been to make the company better. Whether it has or not, I don't know. I do remember that Dean's original vision as I understood it was/has been an engineer driven company, so I see some shifts there.

I will warn you that as an early adopter (and those of us who have been the only ones to have units in our areas are all early adopters, no matter how long the company has been in business) you will attract attention. You will be a deciding factor in the acceptance or not of the HT in your area.

It's a fact of human nature. Anything different gets looked at (and talked about). Anything different is a bit feared, and potentially legislated (at least in the US) to "keep it under control." It comes with the territory. I've known people to so dislike the attention that they have chosen to sell their HTs. I guess they've never really been early adopters before.

Pam

[Steve@SOH]

quote:Richard,

Not a green Segway but something much simpler. I want to be able to attach a water bottle holder to a Segway without improvising or getting Karl's stuff on eBay.

How should I ask Segway about that? (This is just an example of course).

- Yossi


Yossi,
I know this is slightly off your line of thought but...

We are new Segway dealers but have been in retail for years. As such, I find developing new accessories for the Segway challenging (and hopefully, profitable).
LLC's attention to making better HT's has left much of the accessory market to the dealers and the profit from the accessories is an important source of dealer revenue.
As Segway grows, so will the aftermarket with HT accessories.
(Oh... You are right about the water bottle holder. We are in the tropical party supply business and it amazed me that no one had developed a quality cup and water bottle holder for the HT. That's not the case any more...<g>).

Steve@SOH
Segway of Hagerstown (MD)

We're livin' in the future.

[adobephile]

quote:Originally posted by pam
I will warn you that as an early adopter (and those of us who have been the only ones to have units in our areas are all early adopters, no matter how long the company has been in business) you will attract attention. You will be a deciding factor in the acceptance or not of the HT in your area.

It's a fact of human nature. Anything different gets looked at (and talked about). Anything different is a bit feared, and potentially legislated (at least in the US) to "keep it under control." It comes with the territory. I've known people to so dislike the attention that they have chosen to sell their HTs. I guess they've never really been early adopters before.

Pam


Pam, I'm with you on this point. I'm a proud and happy early adopter, and I've taken on the mantle willingly. I give demo rides whenever I can, or at least stop and talk to acknowledge what I see to be genuine curiosity and/or admiration.

One thing I've noticed, though, which goes a bit beyond the obvious aspect of the Segway being a new transportation device, is that it is an ENABLER of sorts. It enables people to come together to talk and visit where they otherwise wouldn't. The HT enables people to get out and into areas where they are open and able both to see and to be seen.

Closed up in a car with the tinted windows up and the AC or heater on, you most likely speed by unnoticed or recognized, and there's no personal contact. But glide down the sidewalk, and you're out there and not going too fast to smell the roses, the magnolia and jasmine blossoms, the fresh sea air, etc. Friends and strangers in their cars see me and call out in mostly friendly ways. And I'm not going too fast to stop and greet or visit with friends, acquaintances, or strangers.

This must have been somewhat what it was like before automobiles. My mother used to tell me that she would go out with her parents and siblings in the evenings and walk around the neighborhood or downtown and meet and visit with friends and neighbors. I think I can say I've been experiencing more of that sort of social interaction since I've been gliding in my town. And I really enjoy it.

Those who've given up their Segways because they don't like the attention probably have other issues not related specifically to the Segway.

I don't mind at all being an unofficial, unpaid Segway ambassador. I'm not out to necessarily sell, or even to necessarily promote the Segway. I just like the opportunities it gives me to get out and meet people. No, it's not all sweetness and light, nor not without some potential danger. But I think the "being there" where we otherwise wouldn't be without our HTs is far better for all concerned than not being there.

I actually rather think that the eventual broad adoption of the Segway will be mostly from a grass roots person-to-person approach, pretty much the way it's gone so far. Just as many long for "personal contact" with LLC (sorry, Yossi), I think it's going to take a lot of personal contact and demo rides for people to really "get it" and to eventually buy their own. I don't know if any amount of advertising can substitute for that.


"The job of art is to chase ugliness away."
Bono, U2.
From a personal appearance
at an Apple Computer music event.
October 26, 2004

Daniel Swanson
http://www.van-garde.com

[X-man]

I have, as I said before, stopped doing demos to everyone. I am very, very selective in who I allow to mount my Segway. I'll stand, do a little exhibit and talk to people as long as they want but them I also tell them where they can go ...to find a dealer.
If they want a ride, let them pay for it. I don't get a check from LLC and as long as it is my machine, I'll do as I please with it.
If they would like to reimburse me for my time, maybe I'll reconsider but I rather doubt it.


Bob.

Where goeth I, goeth my Segway.

[KSagal]

Yossi,

Why would you assume that a Japanese Camera Company and a california (US) bicycle company care more about your opinion than a New Hampshire segway (US) company?

I have said it in each of my responses in this thread. Give them a try and make your own assessment. This much I will say, I knew no one at all there before my first phonecall.

Any way you choose to go, good luck.

By the way, you sure do give us links to some very cool websites...


Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[Brooster]

Another thing many of us have done ... we've gone and talked to school groups. SegChat members from around the country have done this.

I personally spoke to eight consecutive groups of middle school students in an old gymnasium in Stoughton, Wisconsin, with backup from the X-man and Scoghill. We did this on our own time, because we love and believe in the Seg.

Even though I've "given up" on the LLC ever doing anything substantive to support itself, I was still willing to go and do this ... simply because a 7th Grade science teacher came here to SegwayChat and nicely asked for help.

We were rewarded many times over, with hospitality from the faculy and students, and little gifts and hand-written thank-you cards. That was a trip I'll always remember.









Brooster

[yosgof]

I see my postings in this thread have struck a nerve as the responses seem to be lengthy and detailed.

Pam has actually emphasized my point by saying: quote:Yossi, you are not the first to come up with this, by a long shot. Most of the things that I, as a newbie have to say or ask, have probably been said, asked and answered a dozen times over.

The way I see it old-time users here have exhausted the chat and new users are sometimes discouraged to ask questions. IMHO if I want to install a speedometer on a Segway the people I need to ask about my options are Segway LLC.

Karl has put it right. Very simply he says that I should stop bickering and start addressing questions to Segway LLC. So I am going to do just that. I will address al my newbie questions and suggestions to Segway LLC and will benchmark their responses.

I will keep you updated on the results.

- Yossi
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3365119-lg.jpg

[KSagal]

With due respect for any one who decides the proper way to deal with their Segway, and the interest that others show in that product, I must add the following:

Any person that owns any product or demonstrates a skill or activity in public will be subject to questions. How an indivual handles these questions is up to them. I have never been asked be LLC directly to do demos. I have only been asked to be responsible and curtous.

Most people on this forum know that I spent years as a skydive instructor, and also as a skydiver, I made many jumps into racetracks, ball games, festivals and many other demos.

Often times, someone would ask us to do a demo into some private event, and I would arrange this as well.

I am not just overly verbose here, I am that way everywhere. Because of this, I often told skydive stories to any number of people. Over the years that I jumped, I collected various polo and tee shirts from different drop zones that I visited. I have jumped in about 20 states and about 10 countries, and collected memoriablia from many different places...

I was constantly asked about the sport, all aspects of the sport. Yesterday, at a relative's cookout, I happen to wear a Skydive Lebanon (Maine) Staff polo shirt, and a friend of this distant relative asked all kinds of questions about the jump experience, the gear, the whole event.

I do not get paid in any way to promote skydiving. I have not jumped in 5 years, since my first child was born. I will jump after my youngest goes off to college. I have never been a professional representative of the sport, the equipment manufacturers, or anything of the like...

I was employed at two different drop zones, as a skydive flight instructor, jumpmaster, and coach, but never have been compensated in any way as a recruiter for the sport or industry.

I was fairly well known, and was asked to "help out" with instructing, coaching and even jumpmastering at many dropzones. I volunteered to do this as it was my passion at the time...

One of my passions now is this segway. I love it. I love gliding around town, and I love both the attention and the admiration that it generates. If LLC were to ask me not to do demo's and not to talk to people on the street that ask me questions, I don't know that I could comply. They have not asked that either...

I do what I do. I enjoy what I do. I will choose how I share that with those that express an interest. If a demo is too much of a burden at a given time, I don't do it. I have a card that I carry to get me out of some questions, but I rarely use it. I enjoy people, and people enjoy sharing in my fun.

For anyone who has not yet experienced it, wait till the first time you put a sweet little 90 year old lady on your machine and watch her light up a smile that she hasn't had in decades! The kids are easy, most adults are easy too.

I have fun, and am an outgoing guy. I support anyone that wants to promote segging if that is what they want. I also support someone that just wants to be left alone, and only glides on desolate, unlit streets at midnight, if that is what they want to do...

Just don't tell me what I should do...

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[KSagal]

Yossi,

I hope I did not leave you with the wrong impression. You can and should ask any question, newbe or otherwise, anyplace you feel you would get a usable answer. I just did not want you to consider this forum the final word. That has to come from the manufacturer.

I do caution you in advance about talking to the manufacturer about an aftermarket modification to their device. They may or may not be receptive.

Ask mercedes about the hot tub you want to install, and they will likely not be helpful.

For items manufactured by Segway LLC you can ask anyone, but they are the bottom line. For items you want to add to your segway that the manufacturer does not offer, and you are willing to go after market, they would not be...

By the way, I don't know if you are aware of this or not, you have mentioned that you want a bottle holder for your seg. You do know that Segway LLC offers several. The issue is that they are incorporated into their bags and storeage systems.

If you want an handlebar bag, with an integrated bottle holder, they have them on their website...

What we are talking about is variations on that theme. Some want the holder without the bag, some want the bag without the holder, etc...

Karl Ian Sagal

Each road you travel should be just a bit better for having had you pass.

[pam]

Actually, we old-timers have exhausted a lot of the topics,it seems, but not all of them, and we do have a lot of information that comes as a part of having ridden the HT for a couple of years.

Newbies are always welcome to ask questions about the HT and what our experiences are with it, and are encouraged to share their experiences with the HT. We have information about installing speedometers on HTs (with pictures), and just this last week I think someone posted something in Buy and Sell about a cup holder. That's the kind of thing we do the best, IMHO, support each other in the use of the HT.

Some topics (like LLC's decisions about CEOs, numbers of CEOs, types of CEOs, media coverage, etc.) tend to spin around over and over and rarely does anything get accomplished with them because it simply becomes an opportunity for those who have strong opinions about LLC to get back up on their soapbox and restate them.

So, if you want, you can state your LLC questions to LLC, and your aftermarket HT or use of the HT questions to us. You'd be more likely to get "action" on your questions that way - if action is what you're wanting. If it's opinions you want, then you can ask anything here - if it's been done to death, you'll still get a response! :)

Pam



quote:Originally posted by yosgof

I see my postings in this thread have struck a nerve as the responses seem to be lengthy and detailed.

Pam has actually emphasized my point by saying: quote:Yossi, you are not the first to come up with this, by a long shot. Most of the things that I, as a newbie have to say or ask, have probably been said, asked and answered a dozen times over.

The way I see it old-time users here have exhausted the chat and new users are sometimes discouraged to ask questions. IMHO if I want to install a speedometer on a Segway the people I need to ask about my options are Segway LLC.

Karl has put it right. Very simply he says that I should stop bickering and start addressing questions to Segway LLC. So I am going to do just that. I will address al my newbie questions and suggestions to Segway LLC and will benchmark their responses.

I will keep you updated on the results.

- Yossi
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/3365119-lg.jpg