LLC's HELP NEEDED! Segway on DC Metro!

[tpkanaley]

I am preparing a more formal letter to Segway LLC from the DC SEG group, but I thought I would post here first given the severity and urgency of this issue.

It has recently come to our attention in DC, that the WMATA (Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority), overseers of the DC Metro (subway), are planning to institute a policy that would restrict Segway use in the system to only NON RUSH HOUR times of day! By use I mean even manually rolling the unit into and through the system and onto the trains.

Until now WMATA has not had a formal policy. They apparently just instituted a policy allowing Segways in the system, though they must we "walked." And they are apparently (this is on their website) going to restrict use starting in August.

I firmly believe that LLC should be involved in the effort to stop this from happening. There are many reasons why this decision is arbitrary and capricious, yet, WMATA does not seem interested in listening to its public. If Segways cannot be used in DC to commute (in conjunction with Metro) LLC will have lost a HUGE market!!

PLEASE LLC, I know you are out there and I know you have a lobbying firm in DC! Will you please contact us at DC SEG and HELP!?

Thank you
Tim Kanaley
dcsegway at gmail dot com

[Stan671]

That is the same rule they have for bicycles, right?

Stan Dobrowski

[tpkanaley]

It is essentially the same rule, yes. However, this should NOT be seen as a rationalization for restricting Segways. Bicycles take up three times the room of an HT on the train. Additionally, strollers, roll-aboard luggage and other hand carts are not restricted on Metro, and often times an HT take up less room than they do.

I am fine with a restriction that specifies the number of Segways allowed on any one metro car, or that specifies which doors to cars to use, but all out banning during rush will make the HT an UNUSABLE option for commuting! And if LLC doesn't see that as a REAL stumbling block to acceptance, then there is a much bigger problem here.

Tim

[Itsi Atkins]

Maybe by using a comparison with Baltimore. What are the rules on the subways of other cities.
I will be glad to write any letters or help in any manner you wish.

[tpkanaley]

Thank you, Itsi.

Well we in DC SEG just learned that Segways are allowed on and in MARTA (Atlanta Subway) -- though I cannot find information about that on the web. Baltimore doesn't really have a "subway" but I cannot seem to see if their mass transit allows Segways.

DC is launching a new bus service called the DC Downtown Connector and they WILL allow Segways at any time.

The problem now seems to be getting anyone at WMATA to listen. They run the outfit like its some sort of private enterprise (which of course it is not), and they do not like to hear criticism or input from the public (unless is gels with their decisions).

Tim

[tpkanaley]

CLEARLY LLC doesn't care about its owners!!!!

"Thanks for your money, now go away!" is apparently what LLC is saying to us.

[X-man]

I can see their viewpoint.
The Segway will take up the space that could be alloted to another paying passenger. Would you be willing to pay a fare for the machine? I would because I need it when I get to my destination. Maybe you can propose this.
The CTA in Chicago won't even consider this scenario which was one of the reasons I chose to leave that Toddlin' Town. Not necessarily the most important reason but a contributory one at that.

Bob.

Where goeth I, goeth my Segway.

[pam]

Tim, whatever caused you to make that post about LLC not caring about their customers? It doesn't follow from anything you've said so far. My experience is completely the opposite, so I wondered what has upset you so.
Pam

[tpkanaley]

Bob (Xman).

I would not consider paying extra since the people with strollers and large roll-aboard luggage do not pay extra and these take up as much, if not more, room than a Segway. If they are going to ban Segways during rush, they should ban those devices as well.

Pam.

I am pressed to make that post because LLC has done absolutely nothing despite repeated requests for help! This is an issue that they should be using their lobbyists for, and they are not! LLC has done NOTHING to help the people who have shelled out $4000+ for their machines and its about time they step up to the plate! Clearly they are just in this to make money despite Dean Kamen's insistance that he wants to somehow change the way we commute. How can Segway make a difference in commuting and urban congestion if it cannot be used in mass transit!?

[Sunday]

I would suspect that LLC has some lobbyists that are in the DC area, and use the transit system, and I would also suspect that they are quietly working on this issue right now.


Mark

Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.

[FusionMag]

OK... I have to say something. You posted on may 31st of this year and you are complaning the very next day concerning the matter. How much time have you given LLC to help with this matter? Surely it has to be more than a day.

Be patient... Rome wasnt built in a day and neither will the acceptance of the segway across the board.

[tpkanaley]

Hey Fusion.

Yes, it has been more than a day. I sent an email to an LLC contact two weeks ago. I have called to follow up. I have asked representatives from this site directly...we're talking about two weeks worth of effort, at least one thing every day, and I have yet to even get a simple message saying "we hear you, we're concerned too, we'll help and we'll be in touch."

As I said earlier on, time is of the essence here, the proposed policy was posted two weeks ago and will go into effect at the beginning of August...that gives us 2 months...really only one! Once the policy goes into effect, getting it reversed will be SIGNIFICANTLY harder.

So much for LLC supporting the local SEGs. I guess its only interested in the SEGs if it means increased revenue through SEGAmerica events.

[FusionMag]

ok... you did fail to mention that you have been in touch with them for a couple of weeks only to assume that you tried a couple of times within a few days.

Now that is a different story. I agree that a phone call from them would have been nice.

[fredkap]

Tim,

I had heard that previously Segs were permitted without any formal policy. I heard that there was a desire to get a formal policy from the transit authority prior to your Fest. The adage "Be careful what you ask for" comes to mind. As they haven't banned Segs and the rule could be even worse this might not be the right case for LLC to assert a huge amount of resources.

Please, before anyone petitions any public agency, please check with LLC's Matt Dalida or Carla Valone. Contact SegAmerica or DRAFT but please don't try to do it alone.

Tim, I would call LLC and ask either Matt or Carla to give you a call.

Fred

[tpkanaley]

Fred. Thank you for your input.

It is Matt that has not returned my call or email.

We in DC did desire a policy, but DC SEG had not had the opportunity to actually speak to Metro and "ask" before they suddenly and without warning posted the proposed policy on their website. (An interesting aside...at least TWO WMATA employees are members of our Yahoo Group in DC!) One might think that posting something like that would be for the purpose of getting public comment, but they are not allowing public comment and I cannot seem to get my foot in the door.

I have had experience talking with Smithsonian officials (successfully, no thanks to LLC) and NPS (jury is still out), so I am not worried about being able to properly represent DC SEG and the HT in general. However since WMATA won't even open the door, I am calling on LLC and their lobbyist, who allegedly exist, to do that...

And re: SEGAmerica ... thus far I have not seen anything that would make me think they could help in any way...and I will leave it at that.

Thanks again.

[Socrates]

I know by myself the subways of Vienna, London, Paris and Madrid. There is absolutley no way to get with a HT on a train during rush hour, they are crowded. So there is no need to allow or not allow a Segway in subway trains. Isn't it the same in subways in the USA?
I see it the other way: Use the HT during rush hour to avoid the subway. Dean Kamens invention is cool and usefull, but it will never change the world as he might have intended. And it can not be LLC's fault if somebody prohibits the use or transportation of the HT at some time. The Segway can not be forced on somebody.

Alexander

[tpkanaley]

Hey Socrates...(Alexander)

The subways in DC are VERY different from those in the european cities you mention (well London and Paris anyway, i haven't been on the others). All of the stations have elevators, and the areas are very wide. The trains are also a bit roomier and have areas where you can easily put your Segway out of the way. So although they are crowded at rush hour, you can maneuver. People bring in baby strollers and large wheeled suitcases all the time (even during rush) and they do just fine. My HT is smaller than many of those.

[fredkap]

One of the impediments in HT use on trains and subways has been the securement issue...how do we make sure that it doesn't roll around and injure an innocent third party. A cheap and easy solution has been found, but I am not the person that should announce it. I believe we may be a little premature for pictures as well. Thanks go out to Roy Thompson and Jerry Kerr.

Fred

[tpkanaley]

I have never had a securement issue. If i cannot back my HT up against a wall, which ensures securement, I hold it. If you cannot hold your HT steady you have no business bringing it out in the world.

And again, I would argue, that the same issue is present for strollers, wheeled bags, and many other "devices" that people bring on Metro every day that are totally unrestricted.

Tim

[wwhopper]

Tim is as concerened about the usage of the Segway in Washington DC's Metrorail system as all of us who own Segways are here in DC.

The Segway makes MetroRail even better because it bridges that last mile. Gliding to the Metro Station, then taking your Segway on board is easy due to the elevators at each station. Once in the station and on board the Segway is as we all know not large (smaller than baby strollers and rolling luggage) and is easily kept right beside you during the trip.

Once at your destination, you can get just about anywhere. One of the reasons that Segway technology is perfect for the urban envionment. And combined with MetroRail there are very few places you can not get to.

This is an issue that if Metro has its way will ban Segways from the system (they really want you to ride their bus system) can then be repeated in other mass transit systems through out the country.

Something that would NOT be a benefit to any Segway owner, current or future.

Will W Hopper
DCSEG Member
Come out to the Mid-Atlantic Regional SEG America Event - SegwayFest - DC Sept 23-25 in Washington DC - The Most Segway Friendly City in America!

[pam]

But what I'm hearing here is that there is a request not to use the HT during rush or peak periods when the subways might be crammed. Did I misunderstand? This is not a complete ban. Of course, for those who want to use the HT to go to work, it effectively might be considered that. How does the Metro define rush hours? Is it 5am to 9am, 3pm to 7pm?


Pam
Pam

[wwhopper]

The Bike Rules are not good enough! Bike Rules on Metro are for recreational users not urban every-day commuters. Segways (hard as it is to believe) are not for recreational users - they are for every-day commuters!

And yes, there is a plan out there to ban them during rush hour - just like the bike ban during rush hour. If Metro could they would ban them all the time, just like they wanted to do with bikes. But the bike lobby got them to allow them, first with long involved permits, then later on, off hours.

But for many Segway users, not having the rush hour - or getting caught somewhere during rush hour, will make the user think twice about using the Segway in the first place.

For Segways to be universally accepted, we need it to be second nature to just grab the Segway and go. And go seamlessly wherever it is that you need to go!

And of course there is that sector that wants to ban Segways all together (we all know those folks!)

Segways are very different than bikes. And we need to stop thinking, OK; we will treat them like bikes. And when we say OK we will accept the bike rules we are in effect accepting 2nd best.

The Segway is a great tool for urban commuting, and will encourage folks to get out of those gasoline drinking, hydrocarbon emitting cars, and make better use of Mass-Transit. Which funny enough, is what Metro really wants, more ridership.

The frustrating part is that Metro/WAMTA sees the Segways as a nuisance and not as the help in urban commuting that they have been designed to be.

Not to mention that it is human nature not to like change. And the Segway represents change.

We all use our Segway for fun, and sometime for practical uses. For the Segway to be a viable commercial success - which will benefit all of us; they need to be seen as what they are:

Very Practical Forms Of Modern Day Transportation.

Will W Hopper
DCSEG Member
Come out to the Mid-Atlantic Regional SEG America Event - SegwayFest - DC Sept 23-25 in Washington DC - The Most Segway Friendly City in America!
Which this week does not feel so friendly if you are on a Segway!

[Suzie]

quote:Originally posted by tpkanaley

Fred. Thank you for your input.

It is Matt that has not returned my call or email.

We in DC did desire a policy, but DC SEG had not had the opportunity to actually speak to Metro and "ask" before they suddenly and without warning posted the proposed policy on their website. (An interesting aside...at least TWO WMATA employees are members of our Yahoo Group in DC!) One might think that posting something like that would be for the purpose of getting public comment, but they are not allowing public comment and I cannot seem to get my foot in the door.



But you did speak to WMATA during the public meeting where several DC Seg members demanded a Segway policy from Metro and according to WMATA's site, this came as a result of your demands. So I guess they got the public comment you wanted and now the door is closed.

[tpkanaley]

*I* did not speak at the WMATA meeting, a couple of Segway owners spoke, and they were not representing DC SEG in an organized fashion. I was not told (from them) that they "demanded" a policy. And in order to have proper public comment, you have to a.) propose something b.) advertise the proposal and a public comment forum c.) have the forum. NONE of this happened.

Tim

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by pam

But what I'm hearing here is that there is a request not to use the HT during rush or peak periods when the subways might be crammed. Did I misunderstand? This is not a complete ban. Of course, for those who want to use the HT to go to work, it effectively might be considered that. How does the Metro define rush hours? Is it 5am to 9am, 3pm to 7pm?


The rush hour rules for bikes are from 7:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m, weekdays. In the off hours on weekdays there is a limit of two bikes per car. Folding bikes in carry bags are considered luggage at all times.
Anyone interested in the full bike rules can find them at http://www.wmata.com/metrorail/bikes_guidelines.cfm

What you need is a small folding Segway that fits in a bag, i.e., one that is only suitable for that last mile everyone keeps talking about.




JohnM
If riding 2 hours is fun, then riding 20 hours is 10 times more fun.
RUSA #235

[pam]

Thanks, John, for answering my questions.
Pam

[tpkanaley]

The web is such a wonderful thing, and answers to so many questions can be found so easily.

Hey John...the "last mile" is a term for the distance the train does not cover...and in most cases it is more like 3 or 4 miles. What we need is not a small folding Segway, what we need are some open minds not so resistant to change.

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by tpkanaley

Hey John...the "last mile" is a term for the distance the train does not cover...and in most cases it is more like 3 or 4 miles. What we need is not a small folding Segway, what we need are some open minds not so resistant to change.
Nahhh. What you really need is one of these: http://www.electricbikesdirect.co.uk/productdetail.asp?category=1&id=88
Li-Ion. 20 mph. No sweat. Subway legal. Resistance is futile. ;)
Good luck bucking the system.

JohnM
If riding 2 hours is fun, then riding 20 hours is 10 times more fun.
RUSA #235

[tpkanaley]

Oh, right, sorry, I forgot, bicycles are the be all end all form of transportation... my bad.

typical biker...;)

[JohnHHarrington]

Unfortunately, the notion that LLC is doing nothing could not be further from the truth. In fact, LLC pays a hefty figure as a monthly retainer to a DC lobbying firm who's responsibility includes federal legislation/protection, and their firm also looks at the local issues as well.

LLC is involved. They DO care about nationwide acceptance, and are working to make that a reality. Understanding that getting NATIONWIDE acceptance of a device no one'd ever seen, and for which there was ZERO track record, was a monumental task, and one that was accomplished with amazing speed. Further, it's an ongoing project.

For those who complain there's no marketing, there's a good reason -- to over simplify it, right now WE are creating the track record of safety, WE, the responsible ones. If the HT was a $1k device every skateboarder would be running grannies off the road, and they'd be outlawed. As early adopters, we are extra-safe, and establishing for LLC a history or two years of safety. As the price continues to drop, more people who care less about preserving LLC access, and more about the "get out of my way" mentality, will get HT's, and LLC needs to be able to point to a history of safety as incidents occur. Marketing is being done by dealers, right now, which, frankly, is what auto dealers do. For LLC to spend money like GM/Ford on generic tv ads would be economically irresponsible. Each market's dealers are covering the costs of selling their products in their own markets. I see ads in local tourist magazines all the time for our local dealers/tour operators.

Further, to the notion about no lobbying support -- the BEST lobbying is done behind closed doors, between the lobbiest and the regulator, and the lobbiest does not after a meeting, regardless of the outcome, come out and tell the world what was said, but rather, allows the regulator to announce their positions, and then the regulator looks good -- which is the important part, and the lobbiest remains quietly in the shadows. Just because you're not getting the blow-by-blow about LLC's handling doesn't mean others aren't either...in the case of sheparding legislation around, discretion is the better part of valor.



Happy gliding -- John

---------------
Ahhh.....yes....and so this is my signature now.

[tpkanaley]

Just for clarification, I was never asking for a blow-by-blow, just a returned phonecall from a Segway representative.

I did spend $4000 on one of these things, and I AM one of the people they NEED to act responsibly so THEY have a broader market and can make tons of money, so I don't think asking for a call back is too much to ask!

sad

[JohnM]

Tim,
Seriously, if Segway LLC had any real interest in the 'last mile' commuter market, don't you think they would be making models more compatible with buses, trains and subways, i.e., compact and lightweight? Even the 'p' seems to be ignored as they spice up the 'i' and develop bigger chunkier recreational Segs. Unfortunately, Segway LLC seems to be following the same course as the US bike industry and giving little attention to the urban utilitarian market. This is going to bite them on the backside when they get serious about the overseas market, where compact folding bikes (pedal and electric) are a big deal.
Hey, bikes aren't the be all end all form of transportation and as far as I care anyone riding/driving a small clean device instead of an i.c. car is my friend. One less car benefits us all. But if Panasonic can make a 37lb street-legal electric transportation device that can be carried on a train and Segway LLC won't, then who wins? I wanted to see Segway LLC do something about our urban transportation problems and the XT, GT and Centaur aren't moving in that direction. Sad indeed.

JohnM
If riding 2 hours is fun, then riding 20 hours is 10 times more fun.
RUSA #235

[tpkanaley]

Hey John.

I do agree, but in their marketing material (and Maybe John Grohol is listening) they state:

The Segway® Human Transporter (HT) is the first of its kind—self-balancing personal transportation designed to go anywhere you go. With a Segway HT, you can commute, shop, and run errands more quickly while enjoying a ride like nothing you've ever experienced. Try one today and you too will discover the Segway smile!

HECK, COMMUTE is the very first activity listed (and if you go to the environment.html page it even has a picture of someone standing waiting to get on a train!). So, is the HT a commuting device or not? And if it is, it HAS to be able to be used in mass transit. People in cities commute more than a couple miles, and Segway can only satisfy the "to the train" and "from the train" portion. Hence my frustration with their seeming disinterest in the DC problem. Once ONE major mass transportation provider places restrictions on HTs, all of the rest will follow suit. MARTA (Atlanta) allows Segways at all times, and the DC Downtown Connector bus will also allow Segways at all times (per Dan Tangherlini).

Tim

[amturnip]

The future of commuting, for the masses, does not hang in the balance here one way or the other.

But that doesn't make continuing rush-hour access unimportant!

You don't take your yacht or golf-cart on the plane when you travel on business! You rent one when you get there. You don't take their car on the subway to the suburb -- you jump into a Zipcar or Flexcar to complete the trip. You don't roll your swivel-chair from home to the office - they keep one there for you to sit on. Likewise, millions of commuters are not going to drag their own EPAMD on the bus or subway. They'd much prefer to pick one up at the tube station as they disembark.

Moreover, regional planners have an interest in "taking cars off the road", as evidenced by pre-tax transit benefits and, more viscerally, by Metro's partnerships with Flexcar and Zipcar and by the Council Of Governments' free "Guaranteed Ride Home". But that's small potatoes. Racks of EPAMDs at Metrorail stations and major office parks would make another, a bigger, dent in gridlock.

In short, commuters who don't already haul an EPAMD on Metro trains aren't about to start. Metrorail's transport of EPAMDs continues in the vein of of its deals with Flexcar and Zipcar: as ancillary support for your decision to jettison a private auto that was already almost redundant. Giving rush-hour access on that scale is not burdensome, and greatly improves the prospects for infrequent drivers to finally make the leap and get rid of their car. As did I.

[tpkanaley]

Well said, and I agree with you. I have one problem with the ZipCar/FlexiCar model, however. (Please note, I do not own a car and I use ZipCar and LOVE IT!) These cars cannot be used to finish a mass transit trip when commuting because they must be returned to their starting point. In order to accomodate "last mile" needs, we need one way rentals of EPAMDs (and bicycles and whatever else comes along). Paris's Oxygen stations are doing just that, ... but I think it is a LONG time away in DC.

Tim

[Mr. Protocol]

Sacramento Segfest had a speaker from the planning dept. of the California Dept. of Transport. They're putting some bikes and some Segways at the Pleasant Hill BART Station - Oakland I think - for "last mile" purposes. You take the Seg to your office and then take it back to the station at the end of the day, then head home by BART.

[PD1]

Here is a webpage I recently came across relating to this thread: http://www.wmata.com/metrorail/segways.cfm

PD

The Seg I ride is named after my Aunt Eileen.

[tpkanaley]

quote:Originally posted by PD1

Here is a webpage I recently came across relating to this thread: http://www.wmata.com/metrorail/segways.cfm


This is interesting: "Segways are allowed inside railcars from Monday through Friday at any time except 7 a.m. to 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. to 7 p.m.; all day Saturday and Sunday" This says in essence that Segways are allowed in the SYSTEM during those times, but not on the railcars. Everyone in DC should print this out and have it on them whenever using the system. If they tell you that you can't enter the sytem because its too close to one of those times, you whip this out and tell them otherwise. Its THEIR policy, if they don't like it, they should've been more careful.

[Tarkus]

quote:Originally posted by tpkanaley

I have never had a securement issue. If i cannot back my HT up against a wall, which ensures securement, I hold it. If you cannot hold your HT steady you have no business bringing it out in the world.

And again, I would argue, that the same issue is present for strollers, wheeled bags, and many other "devices" that people bring on Metro every day that are totally unrestricted.

Tim


Quick question. What are these "other devices" your speaking of ?

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
See the original Tarkus for yourself.
http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/E/elp_tarkus.html

[tpkanaley]

quote:Originally posted by Tarkus

quote:Originally posted by tpkanaley

And again, I would argue, that the same issue is present for strollers, wheeled bags, and many other "devices" that people bring on Metro every day that are totally unrestricted.

Tim


Quick question. What are these "other devices" your speaking of ?



Other devices such as wheel chairs, motorized mobility scooters, dollies with boxes on them ... visit Metro sometime and just ride and look around...you'd be amazed.

[amturnip]

That's it, in a nutshell. As far as Metro is concerned, the disabled are beyond the reach of rule or law. They're going to ride gaily up and down the platforms at peak rush every day, if they so choose, and there's nothing Metro can do about it.

Well, there is one thing, and Metro has done it: Metro has stuck its finger in the eye of all decent, law-abiding, push-pull Segway HT commuters present and future, and reserved rush hour exclusively for the frolicking of the disabled.

History suggests the reason. Metro reluctantly transports disabled people individually, like heirloom tomatoes, in a program that it has made it laughingstock of the region. There is no doubt that on the dartboard at Metro Headquarters, "disabled" is closer to the center than "al Qaeda". Metro's most fervent hope is that an irritated public, tired of eating crow for the disabled, will roll back their special rights. Toward this end Metro has served more crow than necessary, more crow than previously imaginable, more crow by gross weight than the disabled people themselves.

Notably, it is not sufficient merely to be disabled. You have to register and get your name on the official list.

Do we need a crystal ball to see more and more outwardly-normal Metro commuters obtaining certification as "disabled"? To see that in five years' time, no one who is anyone inside the Beltway will be lacking for a Metro Disabled tattoo? To see certification mills sprouting along Columbia Road and at the Langley Park crossroads, as former HMO physicians find a more lucrative gray market? To see cosmetically garish, slow-to-heal major limb injuries skyrocketing as more and more people discover that they've got to do what they've got to do to get to work on Metro?

Yes, Special Ed meets Communist Party: Metro has ignited the creation of a new elite.

[Tarkus]

You sir have a 30% chance of being disabled before you hit 65. I hope it doesn't happen to you.



__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
See the original Tarkus for yourself.
http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/E/elp_tarkus.html

[SegwayUtah]

amturnip:

So what happens when a less-abled Segway rider goes on a business trip to DC? Do they have to bring "the proper paperwork" and meet with "the proper authorities" to get set up as "qualified" to ride? Will they even make it on the train before rush hour is over?

Chris

[Tarkus]

quote:Originally posted by amturnip

That's it, in a nutshell. As far as Metro is concerned, the disabled are beyond the reach of rule or law. They're going to ride gaily up and down the platforms at peak rush every day, if they so choose, and there's nothing Metro can do about it.

Well, there is one thing, and Metro has done it:
Metro has stuck its finger in the eye of all decent, law-abiding, push-pull Segway HT commuters present and future, and reserved rush hour exclusively for the frolicking of the disabled.

History suggests the reason. Metro reluctantly transports disabled people individually, like heirloom tomatoes, in a program that it has made it laughingstock of the region. There is no doubt that on the dartboard at Metro Headquarters, "disabled" is closer to the center than "al Qaeda". Metro's most fervent hope is that an irritated public, tired of eating crow for the disabled, will roll back their special rights. Toward this end Metro has served more crow than necessary, more crow than previously imaginable, more crow by gross weight than the disabled people themselves.
Notably, it is not sufficient merely to be disabled. You have to register and get your name on the official list.

Do we need a crystal ball to see more and more outwardly-normal Metro commuters obtaining certification as "disabled"? To see that in five years' time, no one who is anyone inside the Beltway will be lacking for a Metro Disabled tattoo? To see certification mills sprouting along Columbia Road and at the Langley Park crossroads, as former HMO physicians find a more lucrative gray market? To see cosmetically garish, slow-to-heal major limb injuries skyrocketing as more and more people discover that they've got to do what they've got to do to get to work on Metro?

Yes, Special Ed meets Communist Party: Metro has ignited the creation of a new elite.


So based on those thoughts I quess a disabled person visiting DC can just join the rest of that "fun loving" bunch and enjoy the special treatment that seems to piss off the able bodied.

__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
See the original Tarkus for yourself.
http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/E/elp_tarkus.html

[tpkanaley]

No, Tarkus,

First off, I think you misunderstood amturnip's post -- it was a little confusing what the motivation was -- it was anti metro, not anti handicapped, and certainly not meaning that the handicapped piss off the able-bodied.

Secondly, quite the contrary to your point, if you are disabled and want to ride the Metro using your device (Segway in this thread) and you are a visitor, you're basically S.O.L. You not only need some form of proof that you are disabled, but you need to meet Metros SIX requirements. These include going through THEIR training, getting a special Metro fare card, getting THEIR form signed by your doctor and getting one of THEIR permits.

So if you're from out of town, and you are disabled, and you use a Segway to get around, you cannot ride in the system at all, and you cannot use the trains at rush hour. You are also 100% excluded from the buses because WMATA (Metro) claims they are unstable and cannot be secured on a bus.

UTAH:

As you can see above, yes, if you are disabled and visiting DC, you are essentially excluded from Metro without going through their hoops, which are impossible for a visitor because they even include IN PERSON TRAINING! This is UNDUE burden on the disabled and in VIOLATION OF ADA! But no one seems too interested in addressing that in DC. go figure...a city with all these lawyers.

[Tarkus]

Tp, thanks for the info. It is hard to see where you were coming from on this. On one hand you say the disabled have Carte Blanc in the system, on the other you say they are baned (HT).

Now I see it's the Segway thing that has got you po, and I agree with you. It's just that your post reads both that you think the ADA some how steps on your rights & that the Metro is in violation of ADA, and that puts a burden disabled.

The middle of the road is a bad place to stand, unless your in DC, the land of the waffle.

Bottom line is LLC has left us with the fight, but I knew that up front. Now we must fight for the changes and that won't be easy.

PLEASE DISREGARD AS YOU HAVE CLARIFIED WHILE I WAS POSTING
AND IT WAS NOT YOUR POST. MY BAD !!!



__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
See the original Tarkus for yourself.
http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/E/elp_tarkus.html

[tpkanaley]

No problem, Tarkus. And for the record, we have several disabled members in DC SEG (our local Segway Enthusiast Group), and we are working with them to try to resolve this. LLC's stance is basically--"its your fight, you're on your own." fun.

Thanks for the interest!

Tim