Maintenance on Segways

[chbrowning]

I am preparing to start a rental business and I am wondering what kind of maintenance I am looking at. Maybe some of you rental pros can chime in. Is there much maintenance involved when the Segways are being used every day? I own one personally and have never had any trouble with it. I just want a heads up before I get started. I don't look forward to this venture if there are a lot of headaches with the machines. Thanks for any input.

[Florida Ever-Glides]

The bigger you are the bigger the problems. The smaller you are the smaller the problems. Hint: if you rent the fleet out expect considerable potential damage to your machines. And, find the best possible attorney, you will need them sooner rather than later. As for rental insurance, forget about it...

Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[pam]

Tom just posted about a problem with his handlebars on one machine in another thread. I don't recall his posting about other problems over the course of his business, except for possibly tire replacement - and the usual one of battery wearing out over the course of of a year or two. The traditional maintenance you can mostly do - reconditioning the batteries every so often, as an example. And you need to be really careful in terms of security when the office is closed.

A few people have had problems with chafing of the wires inside the control shaft, and occasionally we hear of someone who has had a problem with safety-shutdowns (which is usually a platform fault issue, and requires a trip back to the factory). Those are more rare, and probably a part of doing any sort of business, but must be mentioned. I think that over the last year there have been 6 or 7 people who have mentioned this problem of platform fault issue. We've had a thread or two on the chafing of the wires in the CS and how people have dealt with them. (They usually occur when people do a lot of changing of heights of the control shaft - so it might be something you could be alert to. YOu might do a search on chafing and see if you can pull those threads.)

Depending on how you run your business, you will be more or less likely to have actual problems. Tom is very careful to do thorough demos and is with his 6 or 8-9 people for their entire trip, and frequently has his wife there also. As a result, there's not a lot of hotdogging, so problems like broken handlebars, broken fenders, etc. are less likely to happen. If you rent out to people unsupervised, then you are more likely to have these kinds of issues. A new handlebar is around $600, so that really cuts into your profits.

And renting to people unsupervised can be problematic in terms of finding an insurance carrier who is happy to carry you. There are no real standards out there, yet, like rental cars, where everyone has to have a driver's license which shows a level of expertise, and either their own insurance or purchase insurance from the rental agency.

The "open" rental model is currently being done by Keolis in France. You might google them and ask some questions directly.

Rentals, ideas, models, etc. were discussed pretty thoroughly at Segfest 2004, and I found them fascinating.

Your biggest problems might fall in the area of getting the local legal/commercial establishment on board. Politics always plays a part in the success of these kinds of businesses, I think, and there are some places where it would not be a good investment. Key West is one place, for sure. Tom has done VERY well in this regard in Sarasota. I hope this is more the kinds of things you were thinking of. The more responsibly a rental business is run, the better it is for all the other rental owner/operators - particularly in the area of insurace availabilty for the other owner/operators - but also in the area of making this such a 'fun' event for the renters that you have return business.
Pam

[chbrowning]

Thanks for the input. I guess it's a good thing that I'm an attorney, but I really don't like the idea of being sued. I am aware of Tom's successful business in Sarasota, but I don't think that business model will work here. So I will have to stick to straight rental.

I frequently see posts in this forum talking about damaged segways and obtaining insurance in a rental business. However, I have a friend who owns a successful scooter rental business in Las Vegas and they repeatedly have damaged scooters, and yet they still turn a profit. They take a damage deposit and if you bring back the scooter damaged, the renter loses his deposit, even though you may not replace or fix the damage (e.g. cosmetic damage only). These deposits add up and when you do have to actually replace something, you have collected enough deposits to pay for it.

As to insurance, I have not tackled that area yet. Any suggestions would be appreciated. However, I can't imagine insurance would be too difficult to obtain. If these scooter rental businesses can get insurance, surely I can find Segway insurance. Scooters are extremely dangerous, and anyone who has ever ridden one knows that. Thanks for any suggestions and input.

[pam]

You might check with your friend who owns the scooter rental and see who he uses for insurance.
Pam

[Segway City]

Speak to Lora VanDixhorn at Stanton & Associates Insurance in Westlake Village, California. They have a contact site at http://www.insuranceforbicycles.com and at http://www.stanton-ins.com. I've spoken with her several times and she is top notch, and eager to assist. You'll also find their rates very affordable.

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Lora WILL NOT insur a Segway Rental business!!! Way too risky for her underwriter. And how do I know, I helped her set the safety criteria on who to insure.



Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[chbrowning]

I just don't understand the great concern these underwriters have. For many years people have been renting bicycles, scooters, motorcycles, jet skis, speed boats, four wheelers and many other way more dangerous things than Segways and they have been able to get insurance.

[SegwayBill]

Segway technician training can be good insurance, plus a supply of spare parts, wheels, batteries, handle bars and fenders. Backup copies of all keys and clearly ID all machines. Mandatory helmets and shoes could save a life or a toe, beginners get over confident too quickly leading to silly accidents. Be extra watchful of younger and drunk gliders they tend to push there machines too much too soon and get bucked off. seen it happen more then once.

Bill

[Segway City]

As a lawyer, you know how to make informed decisions by researching an issue. Some may have a self-serving interest in steering you away from considering an operation such as that which you suggest. A proverb to live by is "believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see".

[pam]

quote:Originally posted by chbrowning

I just don't understand the great concern these underwriters have. For many years people have been renting bicycles, scooters, motorcycles, jet skis, speed boats, four wheelers and many other way more dangerous things than Segways and they have been able to get insurance.


I think it's because the HT is so new they don't know for sure how to approach it. The are looking for a history on it - or on something comparable - so they can figure the statistics and probabilities and put them in their actuarial tables. (Is that a real word? Do I know what I'm talking about? :))

If we get a few more years with favorable history, I think we'll find more and more companies willing to take the risks.

Pam

[Stan671]

quote:Originally posted by chbrowning
I have a friend who owns a successful scooter rental business in Las Vegas and they repeatedly have damaged scooters, and yet they still turn a profit. They take a damage deposit and if you bring back the scooter damaged, the renter loses his depositAnd I am sure this leads to many unhappy customers after the rental. A number of years ago, I rented a motor boat. I did not do anything unusual with the boat and certainly did not damage anything. When I returned it, they claimed I damaged the prop and charged me $150 for a new one. I was pissed, but there was nothing I could do to prove I did not do the so-called damage. What made me madder was that I knew it would not cost them that much for a new prop and they were probably not going to even replace it anyway.

Stan Dobrowski

[florin]

Hi Coy,

I rented a few times a Segway in Montreal, I didn't explicitly ask for it, but I don't think that they have an insurrance either.

Before you can take a segway for a glide, you have to fill in several papers. One says that they are not responsible when you get hurt.

Another one says that when you damage the segway, you have to pay for it (they also make some kind of temporary reservation on your credit card (I thought it was 250$, but I don't know for sure).

Last but not least they check the segway together with you for any previous damage, personally I think this is a good thing, I don't mind the reservation on my credit card as long as all the previous damage is written down, so I made sure to look (together with the renter) for all the damages and made sure that they were written down, then I knew for sure that I was on the safe side.

Normally I also want to have 2 Identification papers which they want to keep when you are gliding. Since I was a tourist there I said that they could make photo-copies of them and that I wanted the originals back directly. I don't think They really like it, but they did it.

Perhaps you can find some more info at www.segcanada.com, this is the place where I rented them.

I hope that my story contains some useful info for you.

Kind regards,

Florin


Visit http://www.florin-webdesign.nl/segwayinfo if you want to stay up-to-date on the situation about the Segway HT in the Netherlands.
http://www.florin-webdesign.nl/segwayinfo/uploads/cavt41287ea7e3ec0

[chbrowning]

Stan, I would also be mad if that happened to me. I sure don't wish to take advantage of anyone or rip them off, but if they do something like crack a fender, I think it's fair to charge them for it even though I may not replace it right away, if ever. And if something happens to the machine and I don't know for sure that they caused it, I sure wouldn't charge them for it. I do believe in customer service.

[Stan671]

Coy, that sounds like a good customer service policy.

Stan Dobrowski

[Stewbonz]

"I frequently see posts in this forum talking about damaged segways and obtaining insurance in a rental business. However, I have a friend who owns a successful scooter rental business in Las Vegas and they repeatedly have damaged scooters, and yet they still turn a profit."

All my Segway rides are supervised, but, I did a bare rental to a company ONE TIME in a carpeted hotel ballroom.
The guy managed to break the handlebar.
A replacement, sent to Bangkok cost over $900.
Yes, he paid.



JEFF JARVIS
http://www.thailandsegwaytours.com/

[Segman61]

For Coy and anyone else interested in starting a successful Segway rental business we (Magic Scooter) offer a Rental Manual that Daniel (the owner) and I personally wrote.

We have given over 15,000 paid rides WITHOUT any major incidents. We have been in business conducting tours since August of 2003 and continue to this day.

As we started our rental business a year and a half ago we of course went through all these headaches that are currently being discussed. About 4 months ago Daniel and I decided to sit down and pound out a manual that would help those seriously contemplating starting a Segway rental business.

We decided to put the manual up for sale in order to really focus our efforts in making it worth its weight in gold. If we had been able to buy this manual a year and a half ago it would have saved us thousands of dollars in replacement Segway parts, lost man hours, and operation down times.

Over the course of our "Segway Rental" adventure we have learned ALOT about running a successful Segway rental business. So much so that it would literally take volumes to write all of it down. Because of this we have also decided to make ourselves available to our customers 24/7 in order to answer any immediate questions or to go more "in depth" into any subject found in the manual.

If you have any questions you can email me at Matt@MagicScooter.com
You may also contact Daniel directly at 801-278-6600.

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Please keep in mind that a 'operational manual' while containing some useful information can in NO WAY make you a successful Segway 'related' business person. Nor any other business for that matter. A book on personality and business savvy is just as important, or more.



Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[SegwayUtah]

It would be _very_ cool to know the kinds of "lessons learned" from doing over 15,000 paid demo rides. I wonder if the company would ever consider giving it away for free for the benefit of the Segway community and the company itself.

To be honest, I have kind of a love/hate relationship with mass demo rides, so I'll throw out a few "free" tips here. If done by people who care about the image of the machine and the safety of the demo rider, demos seem to go very well. If done in a rush or inattentively, they can go wrong quickly (well, as wrong as things can go on a self-balancing machine moving at 6mph).

I've had numerous people "walk up to me," happy to let me know how they fell off of a Segway HT while getting a paid demo--by running into a wall, or a garbage can, or whatever. It's usually because the person giving the paid demo wasn't super-attentive and concerned about the rider's safety, or wasn't following all the "orientation" specs properly--like keeping within arm's length of the new rider. Once the possibility of making money off the deal comes into play and mass-production kicks in, it seems that quality control and, generally, concern for safety seems to slip away at least a bit.

In any Segway rental or tour operation, it must be the safety of the individuals that's paramount, followed by profit. Man hours, broken machines, etc. are all part of profit--but broken parts can usually be fixed by not ever getting broken in the first place through good safety and teaching practices.

Always remember -- there's a reason that babies are born to be resistant to falls and have really short legs so they can't run fast :) As they get training from a parent and a bit of practice and they grow older, they generally become ready to go faster. On a Segway HT, that "training" mode is induced by the black key and a little bit of training and care from an instructor.

I applaud all the Segway HT owners who give free demos and keep things safe for new riders, and I also applaud all the Segway-related business owners who take safety seriously and let profit follow as a result.

Chris

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Chris,

You have it exactly, SAFETY HAS TO BE #1!!! Nothing else matters if you can't keep the rider safe during a demo or a tour. I NEVER give 'demos'. Everybody has to go through our training process and at the end of our 2.5 hour experience all of our riders are confident. This month we will have taken 4,000 riders on our tour. I could have hit 15,000 quickly if the were 10 minute rides but that is not the right way to teach someone about the 'real' enjoyment/benefits of the Segway...

Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[Segman61]

Thank you Chris and Tom, you both have good points. All of which are just a hint of what is covered in our manual.

Also I don't know if I explained myself correctly as for the reason we are charging for the manual.

No matter how much each one of us loves the Segway we still all must make a living. Of course Daniel and I are no different. There are soo many enthusiasts out there who want to start a Segway rental business that we would spend days at a time producing manuals, taking phone calls, and responding to emails. There is just simply too much to go over to entertain these inquiries day after day.

For example Chris made a good point. You can't allow the quality of your training to diminish in order to "fit" more rides into a day of business. With that same token you can't take 45 minutes to train a group of 8 people that are paying to take an hour tour. It's too easy to lose their focus, which could result in a rider error during the tour. You must realize that the majority of your customers have never ridden a Segway and are not prepared to receive a super "in-depth" training on how to ride a Segway. They come having heard on TV and from others how easy it is too ride. They will want to just "hop on" and go! Once someone is in that mindset it's very difficult to explain to him or her how important the training is and that they must pay attention. Because of this there needs be a fine line as to what they need to know, what they don't and how to teach them the necessities in a way that is fast, thorough, keeps them focused, and most importantly keeps them safe. Contrary to popular belief it IS possible to train someone for a "safe" ride in under 5 minutes. Not everyone you give a ride to will need to know EVERYTHING about the Segway. Plus it will give you things to talk about with your customers while on tour. (as long as you're not busy pointing out points of interest)

Please understand that safety has ALWAYS been our #1 priority. Also understand that it has never been our intention to be Segway hustlers and take peoples money for merely standing on a Segway for 10 minutes. We also believe that being “business savvy” in part means that people should be given a choice as to how long of a ride they would like to take in order to experience the Segway. We have many customers that just don’t have time to take a long tour or just want to take a short ride to get a taste of the “magic”.

After someone has been trained quickly and most importantly correctly, you must know how to spot bad riding techniques and how to correct them. About half of the people you put on a Segway will ride the Segway exactly how you have instructed them. The other half will almost immediately develop a style of riding that could be dangerous to them and to the rest of the group. This must be corrected in a tactful and timely manner in order to optimize the number of SAFE rides you can do during hours of operation.

We had a 12 yr. old who was used to "hot-dogging" on various devices from go-carts to motorbikes. He was very receptive during the training and appeared to pick it up effortlessly. During the ride he started inching his feet to the back of the platform in order to put himself in a more aggressive stance. Before one of our employees could catch it he had moved his feet soo far back that he was no longer triggering the foot sensors and the machine put itself into power assist mode with him on the machine. Of course he fell face first towards the ground. Luckily he caught himself before smashing his face into the concrete.

Since this incident we have had many kids that start to inch their feet back while riding. Because of the previous incident we have been able to watch out for this habit in younger riders and in so doing prevent future accidents.

This is just a sliver of what we offer through our experience. As I've said I could go on for days.

If any of you have very specific questions we are happy to help. We just can't walk future Segway Renters through all the hoops without compensation. There is just simply too much to go over. "So much to do, so little time"

I am SEGMAN!

[Segway City]

Matt: you're right on target with a resource that's been very badly needed for a long time. It's unfortunate that, for some, safety issues have become somewhat proprietary and only spoken of in low voices. Exposing improper riding techniques is not a means to expose a dangerous device, it's the only way to show how truly safe an HT is.

After all the tours and prospective rider orientation sessions I've performed, dangerous techniques or riding styles can be obvious... or hidden. Even after a 20 minute orientation, being on guard and on point with a standardized practice is the only safeguard for the rider. Learning the ropes took time and included many errors that could have been prevented with a simple manual as you seem to have created. Glad to see it come of age.

One rider technique that is hard to see before it happens is the avid skateboarding youth rider whose balance is fore and aft, rather than side to side. They sometimes operate on instinct when slowing up, putting one foot behind them, rather than just flexing toe to heel. That tends to give them less stability, and they are apt to step off the platform as they would a skateboard, invariably causing the HT to bury the handlebars in the asphalt as it tries to cope with the sudden weight loss from the rear. If they take a "skateboard stance", beware, stop and retrain!

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Don't even begin to think that you can 'learn the ropes' from a manual. Ever heard of a 'black belt' earned from a book???

Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[Segway City]

Ever heard of an engineering degree learned on the streets? Don't kid yourself, knowledge that is written is not valueless, it's just another tool. Those who don't utilize all tools at their disposal are apt to fail. I've not seen the manual, but I certainly would not dismiss its value nor the integrity of the author before doing so.

[Florida Ever-Glides]

I am not dismissing anything. I'm sure the manual is filled with all kinds of useful information and is probably worth every dollar charged. What I am saying is don't fool yourself into thinking that you can simply buy a manual and BE a successful business operator. If it were that easy, more engineers would be good business people...

Tom Jacobson
http://www.floridaever-glides.com

[Segman61]

Larry and Tom,

You guys are both right on the money! A manual will not solve all of your problems when trying to start a Segway rental business.

To aid in this our services include an opportunity for myself or a trained employee to come to the location of the new Segway Renter and give some hands on training. Of course all of this does not guarantee a successful business, there are many factors that you just can't help. We recognize whole heartedly that there is NO substitute for experience.

With that being said we still feel that our services could put anyone interested in such an adventure light years ahead of the rest.

Remeber what a wiseman once said "A SMART man learns from his own mistakes. A Wise man learns from the mistakes of others".

I am SEGMAN!

[Segway City]

Good value for the new entrepreneur! I hope you see great success, with many new operations across the country.