What Evidence Has Charleston on Segway Dangers?

[Glider]

City adds Segway to banned vehicle list
By: Jason Hardin Of The Post and Courier Staff
Originally Published on: 09/11/02
Page: 3

Boosters say the Segway scooter will do to the car what the car did to the horse and buggy, but to the city of Charleston, it's little more than a potential lemon.
On Tuesday, the Segway joined a long list of other vehicles - mo-peds, motor scooters, golf cart-like buggies, even motorized skateboards - that the city deems to be hazardous, at least for tourists. City Council voted to give first reading to an ordinance that prohibits the rental of the Segway on most of the peninsula, as it already does the other forms of transport.
Mayor Joseph P. Riley Jr. said the reason for seeking to ban the rental of the Segway, which backers tout as a revolutionary advance in urban transportation, is simple: people would get hurt.
Charleston's streets can be, particularly for tourists, complicated and confusing, he said. Worse, riding on a vehicle such as the Segway could lull visitors into an unjustified sense of relaxation.
"To a visitor unfamiliar with the city, it would prove to be a hazard," he said. "The drivers, just as with mo-peds and electric vehicles, would have the feeling of being in a theme park and would be at risk."
No one showed up to argue against the ban, and officials said they don't know of anyone who is planning to offer the Segway for rental. It was more of a preemptive strike, Riley said.
That avoids the situation the city faced recently when it banned the rental of golf cart-like electric vehicles on the peninsula. In that case, a business had already opened, and owners pleaded desperately to be allowed to continue to operate. Their pleas were in vain, although the city gave the business several months before it must shut down for good.
The two-wheeled Segway scooters keep drivers balanced with a sophisticated system of computers and gyroscopes. They weigh about 70 pounds and can reach speeds of 12 miles per hour.
They're not yet available to the public, although city attorney Adelaide Andrews said the ordinance would not affect individual Segway owners. The vehicles are expected to cost about $3,000.
On the other hand, the vehicles would not be allowed on city sidewalks, she said. Although some places have decided to allow them to be used there, Andrews and Riley said that doesn't seem like a good idea, particularly in Charleston.
"I think that would be dangerous," Andrews said.
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http://www.charleston.net/archives/index.html


PS I got this at theitquestion.com is this the same thing as the "TIQ" mentioned elsewhere here?

[Casey]

quote:On Tuesday, the Segway joined a long list of other vehicles - mo-peds, motor scooters, golf cart-like buggies, even motorized skateboards - that the city deems to be hazardous, at least for tourists.

The overall tone of the article seems to me that the Charleston city administrators just don't trust tourists to be able to do anything but walk. The drift I get is that they are afraid someone riding ANYTHING might get distracted and run into someone or something. Instead of trying something, it seems the attitude is ban anything with wheels, just to be safe.

There was nothing in it that suggested they felt Segway itself is unsafe.

On a related subject, you might want to read this:

http://www.injurycenter.org/ccri/centers/injuryResearch/segway/media/SCHB4954.pdf

Parts of it were quoted out of context on TIQ, and unless you read their out of context quotes in context, you might believe the entire South Carolina law concerning Segway is against it. That is not true as you will find out by reading the law for yourself.

[Glider]

Wow. Thanks for link - I read the SC law and agree with you.
But then I URL'd up and found the injurycenter's segway site. It has a huge amount of data suggesting all sorts of things.
It seems the are upset at (a) being caught off guard, and (b) the lack of testing data to support claims by Segway.
Can you point me to a source of testing data?

quote:Originally posted by Casey

quote:On Tuesday, the Segway joined a long list of other vehicles - mo-peds, motor scooters, golf cart-like buggies, even motorized skateboards - that the city deems to be hazardous, at least for tourists.

The overall tone of the article seems to me that the Charleston city administrators just don't trust tourists to be able to do anything but walk. The drift I get is that they are afraid someone riding ANYTHING might get distracted and run into someone or something. Instead of trying something, it seems the attitude is ban anything with wheels, just to be safe.

There was nothing in it that suggested they felt Segway itself is unsafe.

On a related subject, you might want to read this:

http://www.injurycenter.org/ccri/centers/injuryResearch/segway/media/SCHB4954.pdf

Parts of it were quoted out of context on TIQ, and unless you read their out of context quotes in context, you might believe the entire South Carolina law concerning Segway is against it. That is not true as you will find out by reading the law for yourself.

[ftropea]

Actually, I wasn't aware that the Injury Center actually had any data. It's my understanding that all of their concerns are based under their assumption that the Segway-HT is unsafe. They don't point to any actual safety tests, do they?

Seems like what they're doing is more of a preemptive strike against Segway LLC, trying to keep them off of sidewalks - banning their use. It doesn't seem to be having much effect, but I'm glad there are at least people looking at the safety issues. Also, they're helping to keep the Segway topical - meaning, perhaps, they'll bring the Segway-HT to more people's attention. Free publicity?

- Frank

[Casey]

If I knew of any public test data I would be happy to point you to it. Lack of independent testing is something that has come up before. As a matter of fact there is a thread on this forum discussing that issue.

See the thread "Designing a Safety Study" toward the bottom of the first page of this forum.

[Glider]

quote:Originally posted by ftropea

Actually, I wasn't aware that the Injury Center actually had any data. It's my understanding that all of their concerns are based under their assumption that the Segway-HT is unsafe. They don't point to any actual safety tests, do they?

Seems like what they're doing is more of a preemptive strike against Segway LLC, trying to keep them off of sidewalks - banning their use. It doesn't seem to be having much effect, but I'm glad there are at least people looking at the safety issues. Also, they're helping to keep the Segway topical - meaning, perhaps, they'll bring the Segway-HT to more people's attention. Free publicity?

- Frank

Frank
thanks for the lead.
After review, they are actually complaining about the lack of public data or independent review.
Thanks
Greg Lidare

[ftropea]

That's right... they're just complaining about a lack of information. They haven't proven the Segway-HT is unsafe, but they do have a valid point about the lack of safety data and reviews. Then again, there isn't even a consumer version of the Segway-HT available to test yet. So they're not really complaining about that... I suppose. Oh, I know what it is... They're upset that laws are being enacted that would allow the soon-to-be-released consumer Segways on sidewalks. And that it's happening without any available test data to evaluate first...

Anyway, that's why we have elected representatives :P

[Glider]

quote:Originally posted by ftropea

That's right... they're just complaining about a lack of information. They haven't proven the Segway-HT is unsafe, but they do have a valid point about the lack of safety data and reviews. Then again, there isn't even a consumer version of the Segway-HT available to test yet. So they're not really complaining about that... I suppose. Oh, I know what it is... They're upset that laws are being enacted that would allow the soon-to-be-released consumer Segways on sidewalks. And that it's happening without any available test data to evaluate first...

Anyway, that's why we have elected representatives :P


Frank
I'm going to respectfully disagree. This should be handled by a combo of the Consumer Protection and Tranportation authorities.
I don't want to invest in a Segway, then turn around and find out it's dangerous or ill suited for the sidewalks and watch my vale plummet.
I think it's better to take the high road and share everything, good and bad, in the light of day.
I don't sense any malevolence on the part of injurycenter, they're just doing their job.
I guess, the thing I think Segway should avoid is the perception that free rides and lobbying for the good of a company is not a replacement for solid independent safety testing.
We need to take the high road, in the long run, it'll be better for Segway and it's supporters.

[charmed]

It seems to me that they are very actively pursuing independent testing. They have thousands of hours of data from all the early testing programs with the USPS, city agencies, commercial programs. The data from these early, real world experiences will no doubt yield more than enough info for most people to make a judgement.

There has been nothing to indicate whether or not any testing labs are currently running tests. I would bet that it's happening as we speak.

[ftropea]

That's fine Glider, take the "high road" and don't invest in a Segway-HT. Sometimes you just have to do what your heart tells 'ya. However, most people who want them will go ahead and buy them. I'm one of those people.

We'll pave the way - the sidewalk - for people like you (sitting on the fence.) Early adopters have done it before - and we'll do it again! :)

[Glider]

quote:Originally posted by ftropea

That's fine Glider, take the "high road" and don't invest in a Segway-HT. Sometimes you just have to do what your heart tells 'ya. However, most people who want them will go ahead and buy them. I'm one of those people.

We'll pave the way - the sidewalk - for people like you (sitting on the fence.) Early adopters have done it before - and we'll do it again! :)


Wow, sorry, did I hit a sore spot?
I'm sure I'll end up buying one no matter what, but I'd like to see them lasting legally on the sidewalks for some time.
This is not simple early adoption, if the early adopters are a bunch of jerks then it will spoil it for all - ultimately, this is a product for the people.
It would be supremely selfish to deny the less fortunate a chance at the Segway benifits simply to accomodate early adopters who flout laws and expose safety flaws in uncontrolled environments.
That would be disastrous.

[ftropea]

Oh sorry Glider, you must have misread what I said - or at least assumed it was said with some kind of negative emotion. Let me try again.

I think it's OK for you to take the "high road," as you've put it, and not invest in a Segway-HT at the moment. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sitting on the fence. Plenty of savvy consumers do that very thing. However, I'll probably be someone you might classify as an "early adopter," and will be paving the road - or sidewalk rather - for people like you who don't feel comfortable with taking a risk on a new, potentially world changing, consumer product.

I don't think the early adopters will be a bunch of jerks. But if you're afraid of that, then you're afraid of things that are out of your control. I'm not a jerk, for example. I'll abide by the rules of the sidewalk and operate the Segway-HT in a normal and safe manner. I'd assume that most people would do that. To assume otherwise also suggests that people are incapable of safely operating *any* machine. In general, I feel people do operate machines in a safe manner. However, it's true that stupid people do stupid things sometimes. Stay away from those stupid people Glider - it just isn't worth it.

And everything is dangerous if you're stupid. Know what I mean?

By the way, you said, "I'm sure I'll end up buying one no matter what..."

Why are you sure you'll buy one?

- Frank

[Glider]

quote:Originally posted by ftropea

Oh sorry Glider, you must have misread what I said - or at least assumed it was said with some kind of negative emotion. Let me try again.

I think it's OK for you to take the "high road," as you've put it, and not invest in a Segway-HT at the moment. There is absolutely nothing wrong with sitting on the fence. Plenty of savvy consumers do that very thing. However, I'll probably be someone you might classify as an "early adopter," and will be paving the road - or sidewalk rather - for people like you who don't feel comfortable with taking a risk on a new, potentially world changing, consumer product.

I don't think the early adopters will be a bunch of jerks. But if you're afraid of that, then you're afraid of things that are out of your control. I'm not a jerk, for example. I'll abide by the rules of the sidewalk and operate the Segway-HT in a normal and safe manner. I'd assume that most people would do that. To assume otherwise also suggests that people are incapable of safely operating *any* machine. In general, I feel people do operate machines in a safe manner. However, it's true that stupid people do stupid things sometimes. Stay away from those stupid people Glider - it just isn't worth it.

And everything is dangerous if you're stupid. Know what I mean?

By the way, you said, "I'm sure I'll end up buying one no matter what..."

Why are you sure you'll buy one?

- Frank


Frank
We're talking across one another.
The reason I'll be sure to buy it is that I want one and have the means. The only thing stopping me is the availability.
If the introduction of a new and disruptive (note that I mean this in a good way, something can't be the killer app and not be a disruptive technology) product is done in a bad way, or with too much zeal to satisfy early adopters, then in the long run, the general public may backlash the movement.
I shall be one of the early adopters, haven ridden one via at my company (which must go unnamed) at being fully smitten, but I will not be a bad ambassador to the public at large.
Since I have no control over those who, I care about the introduction strategy and it's long term effects. Allowing stupid people, as you call them, to do stupid things is in of itself, stupid. There should be training and a cultural code of conduct. Maybe Segway could structure deals wherein the "owners" were really leasors and as such "custodians" of the vehicle.
Then, egregious transgressions would result in hopefully both fines and insurance hikes, but also Segway retracting the offender's custodianship.

[Seeker]

Hi guys,

I could see some benefits in requiring Segway drivers to have licence plates ( not licences, but just the plates). That way, if there were some out of control loonies who wanted to give the otherwise respectable breed of Segway riders a bad name... ;) they could be reported to the authorities. Assuming there was good reason to believe that a rider had actually done the deed claimed, he/she could then receive, either a fine, a warning, or a suspension or revoking of the licence plate.


I think that giving the opportunity for pedestrians to report flagrant sidewalk misusers, could result in minimizing out of control driving behaviours, and could help to reduce the anxiety level that some people might have, who had a bad experience with a Segway rider.
Such an approach, might convey to people that both the Segway rider, in being able to ride on sidewalks, and the pedestrian, in being able to report flagrant behaviours, were being ‘empowered’.

Seeker

[n/a]

quote:Mayor Joseph P. Riley Jr. said the reason for seeking to ban the rental of the Segway, which backers tout as a revolutionary advance in urban transportation, is simple: people would get hurt.
Charleston's streets can be, particularly for tourists, complicated and confusing, he said. Worse, riding on a vehicle such as the Segway could lull visitors into an unjustified sense of relaxation.


It will be interesting to see how long it will take that city to change the ban when they see how other cities are dong with Segways.
quote:
No one showed up to argue against the ban

This surprises me. I wonder why no-one showed up?

[ftropea]

Glider,

I think I'm starting to understand your point, but initially you confused me by saying:

"I don't want to invest in a Segway, then turn around and find out it's dangerous or ill suited for the sidewalks and watch my vale plummet."

...and then said in another post...

"I'm sure I'll end up buying one no matter what, but I'd like to see them lasting legally on the sidewalks for some time."

These two statements contradict each other. If you're sure you'll buy one, then how could you be concerned that they might not last "legally" on the sidewalks? You said that you don't want to invest in a Segway-HT because of that concern. So which is it?

Or are you now saying that you'll buy one regardless of the risk they might not be legal one day?

See the contradiction in your statements? I'm sure you can clear it up.

- Frank

[DFDureiko]

Here is what I'm getting from this:
Tourists who have NEVER been on one before? what about EXPERIENCED gliders, who have their own.
I'm going to be at Jame Island County Park, I planned to glide on their bikepath, but no "motorized" vehicles allowed. The campground host suggested the West Ashley Greenway.
Anyone in Charleston interested in going on a glide?
Dan

[jgbackes]

Please note that the article you are quoting is six years old. Written before the Segway was released.

[OregonForester]

Hi guys,

I could see some benefits in requiring Segway drivers to have licence plates ( not licences, but just the plates). That way, if there were some out of control loonies who wanted to give the otherwise respectable breed of Segway riders a bad name... ;) they could be reported to the authorities.

Seeker

I'm sorry, but this one, I could not let pass.

I will be in favor of plates (read that to mean "Revenue Enhancements and\or Goverment Control") on my Segs when plates are required on bikes, skateboards, "wheely" sneakers, inline skates, shopping carts, furniture dolleys, hand trucks, walkers, wheelchairs, and children that might run down a sidewalk.
Not before.

[Froley]

I find it interesting that visiting strangers can ride a bicycle become "directionally" confused and then injured which is perfectly ok----
I am tired of the one way street against segs based on the so called safety principle..

I am somewhat shocked at this turn of events in charleston since i had read an article describing that the mayor of charleston's offical vehicle is a prius---on his request---- i would have therefore thought better of him than this----live and learn i suppose
cheers
Froley

[KSagal]

I find it interesting that visiting strangers can ride a bicycle become "directionally" confused and then injured which is perfectly ok----
I am tired of the one way street against segs based on the so called safety principle..

I am somewhat shocked at this turn of events in charleston since i had read an article describing that the mayor of charleston's offical vehicle is a prius---on his request---- i would have therefore thought better of him than this----live and learn i suppose
cheers
Froley


That Mayor was using a Prius six years ago? How long have they been out? Is this still the case in this town?

[Bob.Kerns]

That Mayor was using a Prius six years ago? How long have they been out? Is this still the case in this town?

We have two Priuses. The newer one we bought about 6 years ago; the older, nearly 8 years ago. The latter is the one with the Segvator, and over 90,000 miles.