Segway Keys [Archive]

Blinky

12-01-2002, 04:30 AM

BBBix writes,
quote:Is it possible to get replacement keys for the Segways?
I could see no reason why they would not allow you to order more than one of the same key for a Segway-HT. I am sure they will be costly because of the fact they have to make another one personalized/encoded to the owners machine.
quote:Also, when I got my ride, it appeared as if the demonstrators had a fourth key on their keychain (I think that it was white). Any idea what this was for? Is this a key that is downgraded further from the beginner key (for tradeshows), or is this an 'uber key,' one that takes out all the stops and allows speeds above the advertised 12.5 mph?
I know the red is the fastest, I think the black is the slowest. The blue and the yellow are in between. As for another key, I don't think they would make those available for trade shows. Why tease the people who come to check out the Segway and tell them that they most likely won't be getting that key.

Maybe one day in future models, a faster key will be sold..

Brooster

12-01-2002, 06:39 AM

Blink ...

Black, yellow, red.

There is no blue ... and if there is, only one person has it.

Brooster

Brooster

12-01-2002, 06:46 AM

From Boston Emergency Medical Services, last Fourth of July: a good look at the three keys.

http://oliverwillis.com/dubumentaries/boston4th_2002/index16.html

Brooster

GlideMaster

12-01-2002, 12:58 PM

Good morning Brooster,

Are you showing us the keys, the badge, the handcuffs or the gun. Opps, looks like he forgot his gun.

The only keys sent to me with the Segway I use were the black - 6 mph, yellow - 9 mph and 2 reds - 12.5 mph. Someone from Seg told me they had heard that the King of Balance had been seen with a blue key.

Ohh! And yes you can get replacement keys from Segway, after you jump through a few hoops (for your own protection) you just need a bunch of information and of course the serial number.

Most riders of the Seg keep their keys on one of those small retractable key chains. Leave the extra red at home just in case you lose or damage the other red.

<center>REMEMBER:
Responsible Riders Ride Segway
and
Segway Riders Ride Responsibly

Segway, The Mind Changer </center>

quote:Originally posted by Brooster

From Boston Emergency Medical Services, last Fourth of July: a good look at the three keys.

http://oliverwillis.com/dubumentaries/boston4th_2002/index16.html

Brooster

n/a

12-01-2002, 01:42 PM

quote:According to some, the white key makes it hover!

Good one Bruce. Sounds like u have spent some time at TIQ. ;)

In at least one of the patents, they mentioned different modes. I dont recall the details, but I dont think it had so much to do with speed. We have also been told that the Segways may be capable of going beyond 17 mph. If there is a white key it may be the key that unleases Segway's full power

BTW I dont like the symbolism in the black key being the slowest and a white being the fastest mode.

GlideMaster

12-01-2002, 02:39 PM

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence

quote:According to some, the white key makes it hover!

BTW I dont like the symbolism in the black key being the slowest and a white being the fastest mode.

Here I go getting in trouble again. Lawrence, do you think that's why they would not let me take the 3Ts (Train The Trainer) course? Believe me I've tried. Then too I've also looked at all of the LLCs' available pictures on line (and I'm still looking). I feel I am uniquely qualified. I know I can do the job. I basicly already do. Plus, I'm right here in the very middle of the United States for when they start doing their monthly training for buyers. Well, there goes my chance.

By the way I really don't think there is a white key.

<center>REMEMBER:
Responsible Riders Ride Segway
and
Segway Riders Ride Responsibly

Segway, The Mind Changer </center>

n/a

12-01-2002, 02:57 PM

quote:Here I go getting in trouble again. Lawrence, do you think that's why they would not let me take the 3Ts (Train The Trainer) course? Believe me I've tried...

I sure hope not Weskifm. Were u given any explainations? Do u have any other ideas as to why u might not have been allowed? It is certainly not your lack of enthusiasm. I would think that your participation here would be considered positive by them. Have u asked about what criterias they are using to select 3Ts?

What sort of discrimination and prejudice goes on in the area u live in Weskifm? Could it be that Segway LLC is worried that a colored trainer would not be accepted by the trainees? BTW so far, I recall mostly white young-middle aged types shown on Segways have u seen any photos or videos showing people of other races? I have also wondered about why they dont show elderly riding them. I have no problems understanding why they dont show kids and teenagers on Segways yet.

GlideMaster

12-01-2002, 03:46 PM

Yes I was told that unless I was sent by the employer they could not allow it because they have a contract with the city and I guess it presents a conflict. I even had two Seg recommendations. I was willing to take it on my own time paying my own way which the employer had no problem with but the Segs did. It was a two day course with about four people to a class which was not filled. I wanted to do it because after having taken my training, I felt I was a natural at riding (being a skier for 28 yrs) plus I've never had a problem being able to instruct a person on the proper Segway riding and safety techniques. I was riding the Segway for four days before I ever took my training. The instructor saw me riding and maneuvering when he pulled up for training and wanted to know where I had learned to ride. I told him I was self taught and I saw the initial TV showing and I payed close attenion. But I never knew at that time that I would ever have one shipped to me.
quote:Could it be that Segway LLC is worried that a colored trainer would not be accepted by the trainees? BTW so far, I recall mostly white young-middle aged types shown on Segways have u seen any photos or videos showing people of other races?

Out of all the people I've shown how to ride I've never had one hint of a problem about race. Because you know what part of my slogan says: Segway, The Mind Changer. When you learn to ride you're so exultantly happy you don't think about anything else. In regards to your BTW question. I've only seen pictures of exactly what you mention. Especially on the Seg site. The only other pictures I've seen otherwise are those of me.[V][V][8][8]
Lawrence, I know this is a dump question. DO YOU THINK THEY ARE GOING TO REFUSE MY MONEY? Lawrence I hope you like worms; because you just opened up a can. Stay tuned.

<center>REMEMBER:
Responsible Riders Ride Segway
and
Segway Riders Ride Responsibly

Segway, The Mind Changer </center>

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence

quote:Here I go getting in trouble again. Lawrence, do you think that's why they would not let me take the 3Ts (Train The Trainer) course? Believe me I've tried...

I sure hope not Weskifm. Were u given any explainations? Do u have any other ideas as to why u might not have been allowed? It is certainly not your lack of enthusiasm. I would think that your participation here would be considered positive by them. Have u asked about what criterias they are using to select 3Ts?

What sort of discrimination and prejudice goes on in the area u live in Weskifm? Could it be that Segway LLC is worried that a colored trainer would not be accepted by the trainees? BTW so far, I recall mostly white young-middle aged types shown on Segways have u seen any photos or videos showing people of other races? I have also wondered about why they dont show elderly riding them. I have no problems understanding why they dont show kids and teenagers on Segways yet.

n/a

12-01-2002, 04:26 PM

quote:Lawrence, I know this is a dump question. DO YOU THINK THEY ARE GOING TO REFUSE MY MONEY? Lawrence I hope you like worms; because you just opened up a can. Stay tuned.

I not sure I understand your question. I dont think Amazon would refuse your money. Nor would Segway LLC. On the contrary, I think they would be glad that people of different races, ages, characteristics were riding the Segways to show that they have universal appeal. But I think that in their presentation, they emphasize showing white middle-class (upper-middle?) adults at this stage.

As for your being refused for 3T, I wonder more about why your employer didnt sponsor your training. Have u any experience with instructing apart from what u have told us?

BruceWright

12-01-2002, 05:07 PM

I think the reason we haven't seen Segway video of people of color has a lot to do with who are the employees of Segway LLC, and the general color of the residents of Manchester, New Hampshire than anything else.

New England is kinda creepy that way.

JohnM

12-01-2002, 05:51 PM

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright

I think the reason we haven't seen Segway video of people of color has a lot to do with who are the employees of Segway LLC, and the general color of the residents of Manchester, New Hampshire than anything else.

New England is kinda creepy that way.

Coming from the Chicago area originally, it was sort of wierd. When I moved to Manchester 26 years ago it was practically lilly white, today about 90%, with 2% Afro-American, 2.5% Asian, 4.5% Hispanic. And Manchester is probably the most culturally diverse city in the state.

Runnin' with the Big Dogs

hodgepoj

12-01-2002, 05:58 PM

quote:Originally posted by BBBix

Just a couple of questions:
When I got my ride, it appeared that the demonstrators had a fourth key on their keychain (I think that it was white). Any idea what this was for? Is this a key that is downgraded further from the beginner key (for tradeshows), or is this an 'uber key,' one that takes out all the stops and allows speeds above the advertised 12.5 mph?
Bill B.

Your question brings up a whole new idea, Bill. If the Segway HT is so damned high tech, why didn't they dispense with ignition keys altogether. After all, aren't they a holdover from 20th century automobiles?

Shouldn't a 21st century vehicle utilize a really modern technique to empower the correct driver, such as a fingerprint reader, or an iris scanner, or a voice analyzer? Many security-conscious firms are implementing access switches such as these.

What other 2002-and-beyond technologies can we suggest to Brother Kamen?

Dr. Paul O. Johnson
Senior Exhibit Developer
The Science Place
Dallas, Texas 75210

BruceWright

12-01-2002, 06:19 PM

I don't think that the desire on the Segway was to make it as high-tech as possible. Those balking at the $5000 price (me too!) probably wouldn't care for tacking an iris-scanner to the cost!

Why an lcd-display! That's so 1980's! Why not a plasma-screen! ooh, what about a hologram?

And if it's so high-tech, why a kickstand, why not little jets of compressed air that keeps it upright?

And why stop there?

Iris-scanner, *snort* yeah, THAT sounds practical!

These science-types, always over-engineering stuff. ;)

Paul, just don't call it a key! Call it a 128-bit digital encryption code!

And John,

That actually does sound diverse compared with my visits to New England. Once I ventured north of Boston, I don't think I saw more than 5 non-whites in a week. Quite a shock for a Los Angeles boy!

But Segway should start using non-employees in its publicity materials, if only to more accurately reflect the population of the very world that they hope to change!

I say they make a video showing thousands of Chinese riding them in the streets of Beijing!

GlideMaster

12-01-2002, 06:54 PM

Lawrence Lawrence Lawrence. I was just being facetious. I was just trying to say that they will take your money no matter what color you are.
As far as the training was concerned it just has to do with big city politics and trying to get through the red tape to the right person to say yes send him or just getting the clout to make it happen in a short period of time. If you don't know anything about Chicago politics read the December issue of Chicago Magazine. Yes I can instruct. It would not be the first 3T ccurse I've taken.

<center>REMEMBER:
Responsible Riders Ride Segway
and
Segway Riders Ride Responsibly

Segway, The Mind Changer </center>

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence

quote:Lawrence, I know this is a dump question. DO YOU THINK THEY ARE GOING TO REFUSE MY MONEY? Lawrence I hope you like worms; because you just opened up a can. Stay tuned.

I not sure I understand your question. I dont think Amazon would refuse your money. Nor would Segway LLC. On the contrary, I think they would be glad that people of different races, ages, characteristics were riding the Segways to show that they have universal appeal. But I think that in their presentation, they emphasize showing white middle-class (upper-middle?) adults at this stage.

As for your being refused for 3T, I wonder more about why your employer didnt sponsor your training. Have u any experience with instructing apart from what u have told us?

BBBix

12-01-2002, 07:19 PM

hodgepoj-

I think that the reason that they chose to use keys was because it was a simple and easy way to be able to initalize the device into different modes. While biometrics is a great idea, one must still ponder how to be able to simply and reliably change modes while still keeping with the sleek, simplistic design of the machine and the operator interface alike. I think that what needs to be searched for is a good compromise between style, simplicity, security, and technology. I would also have to argue with your statement saying that they the keys are a holdover from the 20 century autos. I think that while the concept of the key is taken from them, they are hardly behind in technology. The segway's keys are the only keys that I know of that use just a 64 bit encryption code for authentencation and not an acutal tumbler system.

Just a few thoughts,
Bill B.

hodgepoj

12-01-2002, 07:26 PM

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright
Paul, just don't call it a key! Call it a 128-bit digital encryption code!

quote:Originally posted by BBBix
The segway's keys are the only keys that I know of that use just a 64 bit encryption code for authentencation and not an acutal tumbler system.

OK, I surrender. How does the key contain a digital encryption code and how does it unlock the ignition?

Dr. Paul O. Johnson
Senior Exhibit Developer
The Science Place
Dallas, Texas 75210

don c.

12-01-2002, 08:18 PM

It's 64 bit, just to clear things up..

The code would be "burned" into a small EPROM or flash, etc. memory chip, much like the bios in your pc. More than likely it wouldn't be an 'encryption' code per se that would unscramble the instruction set for the Segway's microprocessors, but a single number that would work like a user-id/password to enable the firmware's hardware control functions.

BBBix

12-01-2002, 09:29 PM

Once the Segway hits the street in large numbers, I wonder how quickly someone will be able to decrypt the keys/machines encryption algorithm and produce keys that will be able to modify the device to go faster/slower.

I also wonder what kind of market there would be for something like that.

Bill B.

don c.

12-01-2002, 10:46 PM

quote:Originally posted by BBBix

Once the Segway hits the street in large numbers, I wonder how quickly someone will be able to decrypt the keys/machines encryption algorithm and produce keys that will be able to modify the device to go faster/slower.

I also wonder what kind of market there would be for something like that.

Bill B.

Again, there is probably not an 'encryption algorithm' at work in the Segway key.

Let me explain a couple of the issues and concepts involved in hacking a Segway Smartkey:

"Firmware" means the computer program that is written (invariably in the 'C' language) and compiled for the appropriate processor or chipset to enable it to perform various functions such as input data, do math, output control signals, etc. Your modem contains firmware, as does your microwave, your digital watch, and your fuel-injected automobile.

The Segway's "motherboard" runs on firmware that, among other things, lets it recognize a valid Smartkey signature, and run at the appropriate speed.

"64 bit" means a 64-place number in the binary system, with numerals 0 and 1, rather than zero through 9 as in the familiar decimal system. The range of values in a 64 bit number are from zero to 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 ((2^64) - 1). That's 18 and a half quintillion.Only 2 binary bits would be needed to store 4 values, from 0 to 3, anywhere in that huge number, equating to 'slow', 'average', 'fast', or 'Dean Kamen fast'. Happy hunting, Seg-hackers; I hope you have a large supply of Pepsi at hand for the task! :D

bicycledriver

12-02-2002, 04:30 PM

Decompiling and reverse-engineering firmware is not a big deal. I've seen it done on everything from modems and cell phones to digital TV set-tops and DVD players. I haven't done much myself because I don't love assembly language.

The likelihood that someone will hack the Segway and allow faster speeds is proportional to the number of people who would like to enable their Segways to go faster.

So ask yourself this: How much would you pay for an 18 mph key? Do you think you are alone?

Steve Goodridge, Ph.D. Electrical Engineering

charmed

12-02-2002, 04:48 PM

quote:Originally posted by bicycledriver

Decompiling and reverse-engineering firmware is not a big deal. I've seen it done on everything from modems and cell phones to digital TV set-tops and DVD players. I haven't done much myself because I don't love assembly language.

The likelihood that someone will hack the Segway and allow faster speeds is proportional to the number of people who would like to enable their Segways to go faster.

So ask yourself this: How much would you pay for an 18 mph key? Do you think you are alone?

Steve Goodridge, Ph.D. Electrical Engineering

This assumes, of course, that it is the key alone limiting the device to 12.5 mph. I haven't seen any evidence to prove that the motors, chips, piezo gyros, etc. would be able to go much faster with a hacked key, at least in a stock device.

If it is possible, there may be some takers for hack business you propose, Steve. But I keep thinking about what would happen to the Segway experience should a rider 'catch air'. It seems to me that it wouldn't be pretty, at least with the current, non-suspension device. Would the circuitry be able to 'recover' from a jump? At 18 mph (or faster), I could see some real issues with hitting speed bumps, and other common 'ramps'.

I would guess that there is more to the design than just a key that keeps the current Segway incarnation from higher speeds.

Casey

12-02-2002, 04:56 PM

The combination of maximum motor speed and gearing would limit Segways speed. The question is what that maximum speed would be.

Also, "hot rodding" a Segway could and probably would cause catastrophic failure the same as pushing any motorized transport to its limit would.

bicycledriver

12-02-2002, 05:07 PM

In December of last year, Segway LLC announced that the Segway's top speed is 18 mph. Numerous reports exists of engineers operating the Segway at even higher speeds. The only thing limiting the commercial Segway speed to 12.5 mph today is software control.

If Segway LLC wanted to try hard to ensure that the Segway cannot go over 12.5 mph, they would disallow this in the software ("firmware") on board the Segway. Assuming that is what they did, then a hacker would have to download the firmware code off the Segway, determine where the speed-enablement instructions reside, and change the value for the top speed before replacing it. The hacker could sell firmware upgrades and installation instructions over the Internet. If Segway LLC allows greater than 12.5 mph through special keys, then the hacker may reverse-engineer the key codes. This would not be difficult for a hacker capable of, say, breaking the DVD encryption that the DVD industry was so proud of until it was broken. If the speed information is not encrypted, then this is child's play. News reports have described the speed limiter as easy to get around, but I don't know how accurate these reports are.

Steve Goodridge (who reverse-engineers the proprietary binary codes inserted into multiplexed security video streams so that law enforcement agencies can watch them without having the original, proprietary recorder available.)

hodgepoj

12-02-2002, 05:55 PM

quote:Originally posted by BBBix

"64 bit" means a 64-place number in the binary system, with numerals 0 and 1, rather than zero through 9 as in the familiar decimal system. The range of values in a 64 bit number are from zero to 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 ((2^64) - 1). [b][i]That's 18 and a half quintillion.

Also known as 18.4 exabits.

Dr. Paul O. Johnson
Senior Exhibit Developer
The Science Place
Dallas, Texas 75210

charmed

12-02-2002, 06:01 PM

Hi Steve

you write-"In December of last year, Segway LLC announced that the Segway's top speed is 18 mph. Numerous reports exists of engineers operating the Segway at even higher speeds. The only thing limiting the commercial Segway speed to 12.5 mph today is software control."

I have read similar things, even one Segway employee quoted that speeds as high as 25 mph. were theoretically possible.

But I haven't read anything definitive. Can you post a link to your source?

I have read so many differing 'facts' and figures that I tend to be skeptical regarding this device. Do you know, for example, that what you read definitely pertains in particular to the I model? If so, I am sure many of us would appreciate some corroboration.

bicycledriver

12-02-2002, 06:36 PM

I heard the 18 mph figure given on several TV and radio shows in December. The two print references I have found are:

[1] "Its average speed is 8 mph, but it can travel up to 17 or 18 mph." Lisa Wangness, Concord Monitor, Tuesday, December 4, 2001.

[2] "The Segway's two batteries recharge in four to five hours, and a charge will take you 10 to 15 miles with a top speed of about 18 miles per hour", Marsha Walton, CNN Sci-Tech, January 16, 2002.

You will have to contact those authors to get in touch with their sources.

Also, there is the marketing material on the Segway LLC web site that gives travel comparisons that require traveling at seven times walking speed, or 18 mph. The marketers never bothered to update the online marketing material when they stopped admitting the hardware's true top speed after pedestrian advocates began to object.

I do not expect to see Segway LLC confirm its original intentions to market an 18 mph device until after the Segway is made sidewalk-legal in every state. After this, I expect to see more Segways enabled for speeds over 12.5 mph, as high as the state laws allow for Segway travel, or higher, as in the case of automobile manufacture.

I do not know of any law or regulation that prohibits Segway LLC from manufacturing or a reseller from selling a Segway capable of travel over 12.5 mph. Does anyone else? Is there any law prohibiting modification of a Segway to allow the vehicle to attain higher speeds on race tracks and private property (or whatever excuse makes cars capable of >80 mph)?

We've already heard suggestions in this forum that a cross-country Segway trip would be better with a faster (15 mph or more) Segway, so we know that there will be demand for such.

Steve Goodridge

Guy

04-19-2003, 03:09 AM

AHA! I found a technical link documenting the segway's encryption setup for its keys. Note there is no provision mentioned for increasing speed beyond red key....

http://www.spies.com/~arubin/segway.html

dgbint

04-19-2003, 03:46 AM

Hi from an Aussie owner.

Visit http://www.ibutton.com
This will answer most of your questions about how the key works.
Simply stated, it's a bit like a real ( physical ) key, pre-cut, with billions of combinations. The computer inside the HT can 'read' the key and make decisons eg 'hi/med/lo performance' or 'this is not my key'.

quote:Originally posted by hodgepoj

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright
Paul, just don't call it a key! Call it a 128-bit digital encryption code!

quote:Originally posted by BBBix
The segway's keys are the only keys that I know of that use just a 64 bit encryption code for authentencation and not an acutal tumbler system.

OK, I surrender. How does the key contain a digital encryption code and how does it unlock the ignition?

Dr. Paul O. Johnson
Senior Exhibit Developer
The Science Place
Dallas, Texas 75210

PoloAk

04-19-2003, 03:50 AM

From training in NH, the Segway personnel laughed when we were discussing how fast the Segway would go on the red key. Apparently when Dean comes in for special events, he says their red key isn't as fast as his. So, if there's any truth in that statement, their might be faster keys, or at least the ability to go faster.

Kelsey

BruceWright

04-19-2003, 04:50 AM

Steve,

I have to laugh at the idea that you keep coming back with this 18 mile-per-hour Segway. Even after the Segway webmaster came on and clarified that Segway NEVER said that 18 miles per hour was the Segway's top speed.

He said that reporters saying 18 miles per hour were mistaking top range with top speed. I find it hard to believe that Segway told Time and Newsweek and Good Morning America 12.5 miles per hour, but somehow the Concord Monitor gets the scoop of the year, about the secret hidden faster key easter egg!

You say that at some point Segway stopped admitting the top speed was 18, when pedestrian advocates tried to object. Then why do your two sources date from AFTER the product unveiling (dec 3rd 2001) when they were described as having a top speed of 12.5?

The actual product unveiling, On Good Morning America, touted the speed to be "up to 12 miles per hour."

Were pedestrian advocates objecting BEFORE the device was unveiled, then?

You can keep bringing these same things up time after time, but I think you should tell the new folks at least what the Segway person said. Grasping at probable media misquotes shouldn't be your evidence.

Otherwise this all smacks of conpiracy theories. Next you'll be telling us when the flying version's coming out!

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

MONTIE

04-19-2003, 11:15 AM

I know I sound like a broke record however, I'm not worried about the speed as I am about how fast can one "STOP". The Segwayer should be able to stop at a safe speed to protect others.The faster your going the longer it takes to stop....Montie

Linc2000

04-19-2003, 07:56 PM

Hey Folks!

Anyone interested in learning more about the Segway keys could check out this web page. It is in Adobe pdf format.

ftp://ftp.dalsemi.com/pub/auto_id/standard.pdf

The Segway key is a Dallas - Maxim iButton. If your curiosity gets you into reading about these iButton, data carrying, security devices I would like to know what you think.

linc2000@msn.com

Lincoln [8D]

<center> http://www.wwwebhosting.com/tm3wwwlogo.gif</center>

cstull

04-19-2003, 08:41 PM

The link that "Guy" provided is really the Rosetta Stone for the Segway key. Most people speculated that the key only indicated which preset level to execute. In fact, the key carries two variables which control speed and turn rate.

Red key speed = Hex 19 which is Decimal 25
Yellow key speed = Hex 10 which is Decimal 16
Black key speed = Hex 0c which is Decimal 12

So you can see the speed variable is in half-mile increments. Since two bytes can provide a maximum speed of Hex FF which is Decimal 256 divided by two means the max speed for the HT is 128 MPH!!! This I gotta see![B)]

The turn control variables:

Red key is Hex b0 which is decimal 176
Yellow key is Hex 90 which is decimal 144
Black key is Hex 50 which is decimal 80

That means that the turn rate for the red key is about twice as fast as the black (assuming the variable is linear.) If that is the case, there is another 50% more sensitivity available above the red key (yikes, can you say RESPONSIVE?)

I may have to invest in a key programmer. This looks like a lot of fun experimenting with different settings.

Don't try this at home.

Craig

pam

04-19-2003, 08:48 PM

quote:Originally posted by cstull

Don't try this at home.
Craig

Ummm, I'd be afraid to - but thanks for the information <G>. It's over my head, I'm afraid.
Pam

emanresu

04-20-2003, 08:35 AM

The media has posted so many erroneous figures about the Segway that I can buy the "bad numbers" theory. If you've ever read an article in the paper about something you know well, it amazes you how little accurate, and how much inaccurate, info is presented. The other issue is any increase that takes the Segway over 15 mph would re-classify the vehicle, as my (and other) state laws say it's no more than 15. I wouldn't mind 14.8.....

Jeff Allen

04-20-2003, 11:46 AM

quote:Originally posted by emanresu

If you've ever read an article in the paper about something you know well, it amazes you how little accurate, and how much inaccurate, info is presented.
I agree. The majority of newspaper columns I've seen here has one or more errors. Sometimes it's the speed, sometimes the weight.

Onward!
Jeff Allen

terryp

04-20-2003, 12:42 PM

The HT that the military is evaluating is capable of 25 mph, but I believe it has larger motors (and batteries). Personally, I'm perfectly satisfied with 12.5.

Sid Viscous

04-20-2003, 01:12 PM

The HT that the military is testing is no different than the model you and the commercial customers have. It IS NOT capable of 25 miles an hour and has the same batteries and motors.

segwayowner

04-20-2003, 01:15 PM

quote:Originally posted by don c.

quote:Originally posted by BBBix

Once the Segway hits the street in large numbers, I wonder how quickly someone will be able to decrypt the keys/machines encryption algorithm and produce keys that will be able to modify the device to go faster/slower.

I also wonder what kind of market there would be for something like that.

Bill B.

Again, there is probably not an 'encryption algorithm' at work in the Segway key.

Let me explain a couple of the issues and concepts involved in hacking a Segway Smartkey:

"Firmware" means the computer program that is written (invariably in the 'C' language) and compiled for the appropriate processor or chipset to enable it to perform various functions such as input data, do math, output control signals, etc. Your modem contains firmware, as does your microwave, your digital watch, and your fuel-injected automobile.

The Segway's "motherboard" runs on firmware that, among other things, lets it recognize a valid Smartkey signature, and run at the appropriate speed.

"64 bit" means a 64-place number in the binary system, with numerals 0 and 1, rather than zero through 9 as in the familiar decimal system. The range of values in a 64 bit number are from zero to 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 ((2^64) - 1). That's 18 and a half quintillion.Only 2 binary bits would be needed to store 4 values, from 0 to 3, anywhere in that huge number, equating to 'slow', 'average', 'fast', or 'Dean Kamen fast'. Happy hunting, Seg-hackers; I hope you have a large supply of Pepsi at hand for the task! :D

the keys are ibutton... they are transponders.
re: the color keys... all you have to do is put the trnasponder on another color. if you look the segway stuff fourm, Deviant says, "I am offering to duplicate Segway keys, as well as create keys with different maximum and turning speeds (not exceeding 12.5mph!).

For editing an existing key, I'll charge $25, while a new key will cost $45, plus shipping.

To ensure that you are the owner of the key code, I require one key be sent to me for verification. i.e. not just the keycode from your extra red key, but an actual key (possession is 9/10ths....) I recommend your near-useless yellow or extra red.

I can make speeds up to 12.5 mph, and turning to be relative to existing keys. Example: 12.5mph max speed with black turning (someone wanted that), or 10mph with turning between yellow and red speeds, etc.

If getting a new key, you may choose:
red, black, yellow, green, or blue

Aside from making your own speed combinations, you may wish to have duplicates for family members, employees, etc.

Since I heard that Segway LLC charges around $300 for a set of 3 replacement, this is a bargain. Anyone using my service shall hold me harmless. The first one to send me an e-series key for duplication, editing, etc. will get half price! (learning opportunity)"

its simple

DES: Segway owner

pam

04-20-2003, 02:47 PM

I'd like to take a moment to remind the list that all the 3rd party creations (or what I call aftermarket creations) (even offers to mod keys falls under this) need to be posted in our Segway Stuff forum, as opposed to the main forum.

That way we keep it all together and those who are interested in aftermarket items can find the things they want quicker. On the main list, we have so much activity that a thread can get "lost" fairly easily, as we move to new enthusiasms and concerns.

And I encourage all the list members to go over there to see the kinds of things our creative listmembers have put together. I just went through the list myself, and I'm amazed (and drooling) at the number of things available.
Pam
(with brand new shiny moderator cap on, trying not to be tooooo pushy <G>)

wheels

04-20-2003, 03:26 PM

Just an 'Aside';
sb313 (California) states a limit of 20mph for an EPAMD.

quote:Originally posted by emanresu

The media has posted so many erroneous figures about the Segway that I can buy the "bad numbers" theory. If you've ever read an article in the paper about something you know well, it amazes you how little accurate, and how much inaccurate, info is presented. The other issue is any increase that takes the Segway over 15 mph would re-classify the vehicle, as my (and other) state laws say it's no more than 15. I wouldn't mind 14.8.....

One way..... SEGWAY ! !

emanresu

04-20-2003, 05:30 PM

I've lived there, and I've lived here. It doesn't suprise me that California is faster.quote:Originally posted by wheels

Just an 'Aside';
sb313 (California) states a limit of 20mph for an EPAMD.

quote:Originally posted by emanresu

The media has posted so many erroneous figures about the Segway that I can buy the "bad numbers" theory. If you've ever read an article in the paper about something you know well, it amazes you how little accurate, and how much inaccurate, info is presented. The other issue is any increase that takes the Segway over 15 mph would re-classify the vehicle, as my (and other) state laws say it's no more than 15. I wouldn't mind 14.8.....

One way..... SEGWAY ! !

lipinsky

04-22-2003, 10:12 AM

quote:
I may have to invest in a key programmer.

It will cost you all of $15.00 plus shipping.

manuelmenzella

12-20-2005, 08:12 PM

The key is just a read/rite ibutton 4 kb.. but the key itself is just 16 kb long.
You can read the key with a simple "interface" sold at ibutton.com , and you can change any parameters you want. After that, the only thing left is to copy the modified data onto a new ibutton.
Be aware that some part of the key shall not be changed so that the segway still turns on (such as the unique ignition code)
Some other things (like the max speed) should not be changed to a higher value than the red key.
Please be careful if you try this.

If you need help on modifying a key, just email me

Manuel Menzella

SegLegs

12-21-2005, 11:21 AM

BBBix..you have mail!

florin

12-21-2005, 03:08 PM

quote:Originally posted by manuelmenzella

The key is just a read/rite ibutton 4 kb.. but the key itself is just 16 kb long.
You can read the key with a simple "interface" sold at ibutton.com , and you can change any parameters you want. After that, the only thing left is to copy the modified data onto a new ibutton.
Be aware that some part of the key shall not be changed so that the segway still turns on (such as the unique ignition code)
Some other things (like the max speed) should not be changed to a higher value than the red key.
Please be careful if you try this.

If you need help on modifying a key, just email me

Manuel Menzella

Some small corrections:

the key it self is 16 bytes long, not 16 KB, which means that you can also use a smaller key
The speed can be specified on a higher value then 12,5 MPH, but the segway won't go faster then the max. speed (which is 12,5 MPH). The same aplies for the turning speed (except if your software version is lower then 14).
If you have software version 14 (or higher): it's possible to specify a no time-out
If you have software version 14.1: it's possible to specify a very short time-out (5 seconds), also known as the police mode

Kind regards,

Florin
The Gliding Dutchman

http://www.florin-webdesign.nl/segwayinfo/uploads/img43a6abf24c822.jpg (http://www.florin-webdesign.nl/segwayinfo) http://www.florin-webdesign.nl/segwayinfo/uploads/img43a6ac1e75530.jpg (http://yellowarrow.net/gallery.php?tagname=florin) http://www.florin-webdesign.nl/segwayinfo/uploads/img43a6ac0910600.jpg (http://glidingdutchman.spreadshirt.net)

manuelmenzella

12-21-2005, 03:49 PM

hey florin, thanks for the corrections
what is the time out??? and what is the police mode???
kind regards

Manuel Menzella

florin

12-22-2005, 06:25 AM

Hi Manuel,

See the following segwaychat discussions:

Time out:
http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7908

Police mode:
http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12438#102228

Kind regards,

Florin
The Gliding Dutchman

http://www.florin-webdesign.nl/segwayinfo/uploads/img43a6abf24c822.jpg (http://www.florin-webdesign.nl/segwayinfo) http://www.florin-webdesign.nl/segwayinfo/uploads/img43a6ac1e75530.jpg (http://yellowarrow.net/gallery.php?tagname=florin) http://www.florin-webdesign.nl/segwayinfo/uploads/img43a6ac0910600.jpg (http://glidingdutchman.spreadshirt.net)