Sorry, I'm a bit bitter about the consumer launch

[BruceWright]

I'm new here, and I've realized that I've been a bit bitter about the consumer product launch. Thought I'd give some background to other people here so that they understand where I'm coming from.

I'm a huge early adopter of new items. I also appreciated where Dean Kamen was coming from in a desire to make the world better.

I looked upon the Segway as pointing a new direction for robotics, and the way that robotics would change the way humans interact with the environment. A segway is a way to augment a human being, to do things that neither could do alone. Our ancestors tamed horses, and it is said that horse and rider become one. Machines took their place eventually, and together with machines, humans do wonderous things. Segway is a robot, a machine with sensors and logic circuits. I wasn't around when horse and rider first moved as one, nor man and machine. But I would be there when man first moved with the balance and grace of a robot.

I was thrilled when Segway promised that the Segway would be offered for consumers by the end of 2002. It was said that initially the i-series, for industrial use, would be about $5000, but eventually a P-series would be available, the price ranging from $2000-$3000.

I decided to find a way to afford the Segway. When I say afford, you must realize that I don't mean that I don't have plenty of credit, I do. I have no debts, and I wish to keep it that way. I also am married and have a baby on the way. I didn't want to spend any of our shared income on a scooter.

I took a night job, teaching classes, to earn the money for the Segway. I've earned nearly $2000 after taxes now, and I was really looking forward to buying that Segway.

I have to say, I am disappointed in what actually was offered, and I cannot justify the cost with a baby on the way. I do see this as turning from a noble invention with a great future, to a toy for the rich, something from a Neiman Marcus catalog.

I don't like that the Segway is sold sight-unseen. To me, that just capitalizes off of the hype. I don't like that I have to pay my cash money now to take delivery in 4 to 7 months. That's just nonsense.

I don't like that Segway's customers are made to pre-order, put down non-refundable deposits, play essay contests, just for the opportunity to purchase what corporate america has had available for almost a year now. I don't like that the price hasn't dropped at all, and there's no lower-priced version on the horizon. Even after the product launch, Segway has been very cagey about any details of this product. Are they selling them or not?

All of those things make me realize that Segway is not a customer-oriented company. All of those things are very customer-hostile. (The non-refundable deposit seems almost criminal, is that LEGAL? Do our non-refundable deposits earn interest for us or for Amazon?)

We are customers. It's time Segway treated us as such, and not as drooling venture capitalists.

I wanted to believe in the future that Dean Kamen was promising, and not think that it was misplaced hype.

It's too bad that this sales launch does nothing but feed hype, and cash in on it.

[Jnadke]

Well, I guess you'll just have to keep that money stored away and wait another year to get your toy... In the meantime enjoy the tax-cut for the soon-to-be newborn. Congrats btw.

I know... I was disappointed as well... but they never said the consumer model would be $2000 by the end of 2002... or 2003 for that matter.

They did say that the business model would be $9000-10000 with the consumer model coming out later and being cheaper.


There's a lot behind launching the Segway. First, legislation needs to be in place to classify it as a pedestrian device, like a bicycle. If you apply the laws bicycles have to it, it should be fine. Right now, the motors would classify it has a vehicle, which is prohibited on sidewalks.

Also, many liability stuff needs to be worked out to keep the lawyers happy and to keep the consumers from being sue-happy.

[BruceWright]

Thanks!

Woohoo! Didn't think about that tax cut! COOL!

I understand the legislation things, and sometimes pricing and manufacturing can get out of control.

But what is in their control is the way they handle the roll-out. And I do think this roll out is consumer-hostile. I don't want to put $500 of my money in Bezos' bank account for 6 months. I don't like that it's a sight-unseen purchase. It's like Segway is saying, "Oh, you'll pay for this. You know you want it. Want it by Christmas? Here's another hoop to jump through." And we're supposed to be only happy to fork over money to be first first FIRST.

[Blinky]

quote:We are customers. It's time Segway treated us as such, and not as drooling venture capitalists.
If its the price of the Segway, wait in line because there are lots of us who are waiting for that price to drop. But we shouldn't knock Segway LLC for making money on this thing. They came out with something new, let them charge the $5000, they have to make some of the money back, right? :)
quote:And we're supposed to be only happy to fork over money to be first first FIRST.
Consumers have to sometimes pay a premium price for things when they first come out. So if you want this thing 'first first First' then you have to fork over that money.

[ftropea]

Bruce,

I hear what you're saying about wanting the price to be lower. BTW, congratulations on saving that 2K! I suggest you spend some of it on the family this holiday and save up the rest for a Segway, putting a little away each week until the price drops or they come out with a cheaper version.

You know, a lot of what people think Segway promised didn't come from Segway at all. The media distorted facts and rumors - using some thing from that book proposal and bits and pieces reported second hand from other news stories - and really screwed up some people's expectations.

My advice is to simply listen closely to what the company (Segway LLC) is saying and go with that.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[BruceWright]

Frank, and friends.

I'm replying to this message under this topic, lest I continue in my theft of the theft thread ;)

Very good points, Frank, and with that explaination, it does make sense. Many of the things I expected from Segway were in the form of unofficial announcements, rumors or coverage in the press, rather than direct statements from Segway.

My misunderstanding of the Amazon sale as "toys for rich kids", now I come to see probably isn't the last word on how Segways will be sold.

It does seem just as you describe it, Frank, a cool way to get some Segways out to early adopters.

My problem, and I think this is an image problem for Segway as well, is that they never communicated this to the customers. Segway has been incredibly tight-lipped on any official pricing information, order dates, availability, dealerships, etc. All I've heard semi-officially was that they were going to try to sell them by Christmas 2003. Well, they will sell 30 of them before Christmas anyway. (Hey, even Tucker made 51 Tucker Automobiles!) In the Amazon offer, they STILL don't give a final price, all they say is that the offer locks a price, and if they come down, you will be refunded, and protected if they go up.

Again, the communication thing.

Looking at this as a consumer, it really seems like Segway has decided Amazon is the preferred and perhaps only sales venue for this item, which seems like a scheme where each one is made to order. I can't believe that they only have the stock or training force to sell 30 of these things. It makes it seem like they have a very hard time manufacturing them. Has anyone ever seen more than 4 of these in a room together?

Now maybe I want the i-series. It seems like a very nice one. The P-series used to be talked about on the website, and now it's pulled, with no explanation, as if it doesn't exist. Kamen rode a P on the GMA unveiling. The P was on the front page of the Vanity Fair article, but now it doesn't exist. Again, the communication thing.

I think that most people saw the news report that they were $5000 and on Amazon, with a big lead time and wrote it off as a gizmo that was too expensive to manufacture and became a luxury item. That's what I did. I thought, "well, that's that. They're finally out, but I won't buy one. It's the Tucker Torpedo."







quote:Originally posted by ftropea

Bruce,

Good points. Basically I agree with you...

Before we see any of this environmental & social impact, people are going to have to start buying these transporters in appreciable numbers... and that ain't going to happen unless the price comes down. I'm not sure what the price point is, but it's definitely not $5,000. However, that being said - I don't have a problem with the current sales approach...

This is the way I see it. Kamen and Co. currently have 2 production ready models.. the I and E series. They were determined to go to the industrial market first while they worked on state sidewalk legislation... As they did some beta tests and worked out manufacturing issues, they've been working on a consumer model - the "p series". We've been hearing that we won't see the "p series" until 2003 - sometime during the summer perhaps (various sources reported this.)

However, at this point - now that they're ready to exercise their manufacturing legs, they decided to offer anyone who wanted one - a chance to buy the "i series", the less industrial of the 2, to consumers. That doesn't mean they expect the average Joe to buy one... but they put it out there and gave the enthusiasts and rich kids a chance to be the first on the block. Nothing wrong with that... In fact, if they hadn't done that, it would have been a fair question to ask why you couldn't buy an "i series" for personal use.. why you had to have a business purpose.

Now you don't need a business purpose. That's the only difference.

And they don't hurt anyone... plus they give you a chance to own one now... plus they get to continue working on the "p series" and work out their manufacturing legs.

It's a win for them... it's a bonus for you... plus it sets the stage for a "p series" for the rest of us this summer - or whenever they decide to release/sell it.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[rhtufts]

The Segway is an expensive toy scooter. You can buy an electric scooter for $600 that is smaller, lighter and faster.

How is the segway better? Oh it self balances... gotta admit thats pretty neat, worth $5000? Not at all, your inner ear will balance a scooter or bike just fine and it works for free.

.02
Russell

[n/a]

quote:I think that most people saw the news report that they were $5000 and on Amazon, with a big lead time and wrote it off as a gizmo that was too expensive to manufacture and became a luxury item...

I agree with this Bruce. Hopefully it is not too late for Segway to change that perception. But then they still havent begun to advertize. Also, if sales of the i models turns out to be very slow they may reconsider their strategy.

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by rhtufts

The Segway is an expensive toy scooter. You can buy an electric scooter for $600 that is smaller, lighter and faster.

How is the segway better? Oh it self balances... gotta admit thats pretty neat, worth $5000? Not at all, your inner ear will balance a scooter or bike just fine and it works for free.
.02
Russell

Welcome to the forum rhtufts. I am sure that u will agree that people with balancing problems will at least benefit from the invention. The question u raise has been discussed a lot in the media and on various Segway forums for the last year. I am curious about how much of that discussion u have been following. Are u familiar with the main arguments made by those who think Segway is an impressive and useful transporter? Have u read the accident statistics for the $600 dollar scooters u mention?

[rhtufts]

Yes I can see a use for the Segway for many people. Disabled or elderly especially people for whom normal walking is difficult but not impossible. However IMHO for your normal everyday person it is just a toy. (Not a popular opinion on this board I'm sure)

Obviously I'm not one of those people who think the Segway is the next evolution of the wheel. I think the self-balancing technology is very cool but the Segway is hardly as revolutionary as everyone said (and some still seem to think).

I'm not familiar with any accident statistics of electric scooters. I've never had any interest in ever buying one. A $600 electric scooter would be just as useless to me as $5000 Segway would be.

What I'm curious about is why so many people STILL think the Segway is so amazing. Why would you need one? Why would you want one? Disabilities aside I can see a small niche market for those people who live and work in big cities but for everyone else... why?

.02 (JMHO)
Russell

[rhtufts]

Lawrence,
To answer your other question... no I havent really been following any discusions on the segway. This is my first time on a "segway board".

Russell

[GlideMaster]

Father forgive me for I know not what I say.

What I'm curious about is why you are even on this site? Why are you wasting your time on this site? Why would you want to?

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Sorry Frank. but someone had to do it. I recommend that rhtufts check out TIQ they would love the company.

quote:What I'm curious about is why so many people STILL think the Segway is so amazing. Why would you need one? Why would you want one?

<center>REMEMBER:
Responsible Riders Ride Segway
and
Segway Riders Ride Responsibly

Segway, The Mind Changer</center>

[rhtufts]

I'm on this site because me and a friend were talking about the segway this morning. I did a search and this forum came up.

So is debate discouraged on this fourm? Have I been insulting to anyone? Are opposing opinions told to get lost?

Russell

p.s. Whats TIQ?

[n/a]

quote:What I'm curious about is why you are even on this site? Why are you wasting your time on this site? Why would you want to?


Weskim, I choose to think that rhtufts is genuinely interested in getting some answers to his questions. I expect that there will be many more new posters coming with such questions. The media is full of such questions. This site is perfect for responding to them imo. Let's be patient.

quote:What I'm curious about is why so many people STILL think the Segway is so amazing. Why would you need one? Why would you want one? Disabilities aside I can see a small niche market for those people who live and work in big cities but for everyone else... why?


I suggest, u do some research regarding these questions. It would take too long to answer them. The Segway site is a good place to begin. If u have problems with the claims being made about the virtues and benefits of Segway we can get into a more specific discussion. rhtufts, try to keep in mind that the Segway u have seen thus far is the first of a new kind of transportation vehicle. Like the first PC's they have limited uses. Consider the congestion and pollution problems of the major cities in the world with an average speed of 8 mph. on the roads. Try to see the broader perspective. What might Segways evolve into 5-10 years from now? Also try to get a ride on a Segway and see how that affects u.

[GlideMaster]

OK Lawrence I'll sit back and see how this develops. Thank You for being the voice of wisdom.

<center>REMEMBER:
Responsible Riders Ride Segway
and
Segway Riders Ride Responsibly

Segway, The Mind Changer</center>


quote:Originally posted by Lawrence

quote:What I'm curious about is why you are even on this site? Why are you wasting your time on this site? Why would you want to?


Weskim, I choose to think that rhtufts is genuinely interested in getting some answers to his questions. I expect that there will be many more new posters coming with such questions. The media is full of such questions. This site is perfect for responding to them imo. Let's be patient.

quote:What I'm curious about is why so many people STILL think the Segway is so amazing. Why would you need one? Why would you want one? Disabilities aside I can see a small niche market for those people who live and work in big cities but for everyone else... why?


I suggest, u do some research regarding these questions. It would take too long to answer them. The Segway site is a good place to begin. If u have problems with the claims being made about the virtues and benefits of Segway we can get into a more specific discussion. rhtufts, try to keep in mind that the Segway u have seen thus far is the first of a new kind of transportation vehicle. Like the first PC's they have limited uses. Consider the congestion and pollution problems of the major cities in the world with an average speed of 8 mph. on the roads. Try to see the broader perspective. What might Segways evolve into 5-10 years from now? Also try to get a ride on a Segway and see how that affects u.

[n/a]

quote:OK Lawrence I'll sit back and see how this develops. Thank You for being the voice of wisdom.

Thank u weskifm. Next time around it may be your turn for giving me some words of wisdom. Your enthusiasm for Segway, may make u impatient with those who have not experience what u have experienced or share your perspective. I think admin allows for a wide range of veiwpoints about Segway as long as those viewpoints are expressed in a polite civil manner and with some basis in fact.

quote:So is debate discouraged on this fourm? Have I been insulting to anyone? Are opposing opinions told to get lost?


Russel my impression is that this forum is open for discussion and debate. That is why I am here. If u read my postings u will see that I too have questions and concerns regarding the Segway.

As to your question, what is TIQ? TIQ has become the forum for people who enjoy the new sport of Segway bashing. It used to be the main site for trying to solve the Ginger mystery. So if u discover from your researching and discussion that Segway is a lousy invention, u will have some people there to agree with u and u will be able to vent your frustrations in a less polite manner than u are required to do here.

[rhtufts]

Ok... did a little more reading and research. Got to admit the Segway is very cool. However I still don't see much of a use for myself or for anyone else I know. (Except maybe my grandma)

Let me ask you guys this. If you were given a Segway tomorrow what would you use it for?

*Ride to work? It would take me 3 hours to get to work on a Segway. (One side effect that a century of cars has had is that most people live many miles from where they work.)

*Ride to grocery store? That's not as bad, it would only take 25 minutes there and 25 min. back. Of course that 10 miles round trip so it is getting close to recharge time.

*Ride to a friends house? Hey that is only 15 minutes away on a Segway. But what if my wife wants to go? I guess she can take her own $5000 Segway.

Of course everyone lives in different areas some people live just short Segway drive from anywhere they would need to go. Most people I know need something faster, warmer/cooler and dryer with more passenger/cargo room. I've lived in Michigan, Florida and now in Texas I cant think of a real use my family or friends would have had for a Segway in any of these places.

Tell me what you would use one for,
Russell

P.S. I can see the "ride a bus/rent a Segway" idea actually working.

[n/a]

quote:Ok... did a little more reading and research. Got to admit the Segway is very cool. However I still don't see much of a use for myself or for anyone else I know. (Except maybe my grandma)


Wow, u are a quick study Russell. If grandma can climb stairs she should be able to ride a Segway, but help her with the lifting.

quote:*Ride to work? It would take me 3 hours to get to work on a Segway. (One side effect that a century of cars has had is that most people live many miles from where they work.)

Do u have statistics to share with us about the distance the average American, European, world citizen travels to work?
quote:
*Ride to grocery store? That's not as bad, it would only take 25 minutes there and 25 min. back. Of course that 10 miles round trip so it is getting close to recharge time.

It takes me 10 minutes to get to the store by car. On a Segway, it might take only 5 because I wouldnt need to walk the distance to where my car is parked, find a parking place, and I could take some shortcuts on the Segway.

quote:*Ride to a friends house? Hey that is only 15 minutes away on a Segway. But what if my wife wants to go? I guess she can take her own $5000 Segway.

Instead of u both taking cars u could save on an extra car and one of u could take a Segway. BTW the $5000 price tag is for the early adapters who want to get their hands on them before everybody else.

quote:Ofcourse everyone lives in different areas some people live just short Segway drive from anywhere they would need to go. Most people I know need something faster, warmer/cooler and dryer with more passenger/cargo room. I've lived in Michigan, Florida and now in Texas I cant think of a real use my family or friends would have had for a Segway in any of these places.

Tell me what you would use one for,


About 50% of car trips are for distances of less than 3 miles. Segways could help some people reduce the short trips and save money while reducing pollution and wear and tear on the car. Did u not read this or do u have other statistics?

If u have read the other threads here, u will have seen that a number of us agree with u about a $5000 Segway for the consumer market.

[Brooster]

Russell,

I can think of at least a few things I could use mine for. I live five miles from my job in downtown Chicago, so I conceivably could take it to work on nice days, provided it's okay with the building management and the bosses in my office if I bring it inside. I think they'll think it's kinda cool. I don't think I'll want to lock it on a bike rack outside ... at least not in the beginning. Like I've said in another thread, I'm not gonna be the first to have one stolen.

I'll use it for running quick errands in the neighborhood ... going to the dry cleaner, to pick up carry-out for dinner, etc. I won't feel bad about locking it if it's just for a few minutes and I can keep an eye on it through the windows. I'll be able to carry a lot of things with a simple backpack.

I'll explore neighborhoods here in Chicago that I'd never have seen otherwise, because it's too far to walk and because parking can be so difficult. And let's face it, you don't get the same "feel" about a neighborhood just by driving through in a car. Out there on my Segway, I'll meet and talk with the people.

I'll toss it in the back of my car and explore trails in state parks, etc. I'll use it to find and access remote fishing spots. I'll take it when I go on camping trips.

These are just a few ideas. Dozens of other uses will pop up as time goes on, I'm sure.

Brooster

[BruceWright]

I used to work at Paramount Pictures. Paramount has a very large backlot, one of the biggest in the industry. If you had a meeting at another part of the lot from your office, you wasted about 45 minutes of your day walking to and from it. A bicycle would not be a good option in a business suit. I imagine Segway will sell hundreds of units to people who work at movie studios.

As far as people living in some of the most crowded urban centers in the world, I would not classify the combined populations of New York, Chicago, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Tokyo as a niche market.


But, of course, there's always the "fun" aspect. How many people own Sea-Doos' or other recreational water craft? Those cost as much as a Segway, and require a trailer and access to a lake. At least I can ride my Segway in my neighborhood. (I don't live in San Fransisco!)

[Brooster]

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright
At least I can ride my Segway in my neighborhood. (I don't live in San Fransisco!)


Bruce, did you order one? If so, we have #9 on the books!

Brooster

[BruceWright]

Oh, sorry Brooster.

When I said "My" I meant my imaginary future Segway. I wish!


I noticed that nobody has registered

www.buymeasegway.com

yet.

Perhaps that will be my plan. Just post a picture of me looking sad without a Segway, and let people send me money. Anyone to donate $20 or more gets a free ride when I get it!

[Brooster]

LOL! Now there's a man with a plan!

Brooster

[Blinky]

Brooster writes,
quote:LOL! Now there's a man with a plan!

Brooster
As pathetic a plan as it sounds, people have made money on the internet this way. If you do it Bruce, get me one too [:p]

Just desperate for a Segway right now. I'll just wait months until the price drops.

[steve1501]

Blinky:

I have been reading many of the posts, and many people are waiting for a price drop. I do not think that it is going to happen at all. Cars and other transporation items seem to be immune from price reductions. At best, the price will remain constant, but you may get more features for the same dollar. Look how the Segway is being marketed - through Amazon. Dean and Jeff want to keep as much in a vertical posture as possible, e.g. raising profits.

Steve

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by steve1501

Blinky:

I have been reading many of the posts, and many people are waiting for a price drop. I do not think that it is going to happen at all. Cars and other transporation items seem to be immune from price reductions. At best, the price will remain constant, but you may get more features for the same dollar. Look how the Segway is being marketed - through Amazon. Dean and Jeff want to keep as much in a vertical posture as possible, e.g. raising profits.

Steve

Steve, I have been looking at a lot of things for the last two years, among other things, I have been looking at Dean Kamen the man and his visions. He wants Segways to become universal transportation vehicles. He wants them to be affordable to the poor of the world, who cant afford anything more than polluting motorized bikes. I doubt that he has changed his view on that issue. Try to remember that the Segway that has been made available to the public is for the early-early adapters people who are fascinated with Kamen and his vision, new technology, people with money to burn, people with special needs, people who need to walk a lot and who's time is valuable, people who want to attract some attention to themselves for various reasons.

[steve1501]

Lawrence:

I share your dream of the utopian society and the lofty aspirations of Dean Kamen. Unfortunately, I am a realist, and I know that for Segway to become competitive in the open market, it needs venture capital. Unfortunately, the pragmatism of the VC lenders is centered around one concept - how much money will we make and when will we make it. I do not believe that there will be a significant price drop until there has been a complete return of capital to the initial investors.

Steve

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by steve1501

Lawrence:

I share your dream of the utopian society and the lofty aspirations of Dean Kamen. Unfortunately, I am a realist, and I know that for Segway to become competitive in the open market, it needs venture capital. Unfortunately, the pragmatism of the VC lenders is centered around one concept - how much money will we make and when will we make it. I do not believe that there will be a significant price drop until there has been a complete return of capital to the initial investors.

Steve

Last I heard, Kamen was still in control of Segway LLC. If we can believe the proposal on this point (have u read it?) Kamen could have taken the easy road, ie, sell Segways to the niche markets and not worry about sidewalk regulations. If the VC lenders see greater profits down the road, might they not be willing to wait for a complete return on their capital? Apparently, Kamen is good at getting what he wants even from VC lenders.

[Blinky]

Steve writes,
quote:I have been reading many of the posts, and many people are waiting for a price drop. I do not think that it is going to happen at all. Cars and other transporation items seem to be immune from price reductions. At best, the price will remain constant, but you may get more features for the same dollar. Look how the Segway is being marketed - through Amazon. Dean and Jeff want to keep as much in a vertical posture as possible, e.g. raising profits.
Very good point. Yes the price may not drop, but I can still hope. Maybe I am thinking in to much of an ideal situation for my self in the months ahead. If this is what Kamen's or Segway & Co's plan is for the future, I will probably have to wait a little longer and save the difference of money separate from the money I am willing to spend($3000-3500).

[Blinky]

Lawrence writes,
quote:Last I heard, Kamen was still in control of Segway LLC. If we can believe the proposal on this point (have u read it?) Kamen could have taken the easy road, ie, sell Segways to the niche markets and not worry about sidewalk regulations. If the VC lenders see greater profits down the road, might they not be willing to wait for a complete return on their capital? Apparently, Kamen is good at getting what he wants even from VC lenders.
I am sure Kamen is involved in Segway LLC in some way, but with all due respect I think that the last we heard that guy George Miller http://www.segway.com/aboutus/executive_management_team.html#George_Muller has been running most of the show. I would think Kamen would be to busy to be as involved in Segway LLC as much as we think.

Running a company like Segway LLC, even as small as it probably is right now would be to much for Kamen and his other projects(assuming that there are any).