Segway Alternative Robin M1

[RobinM1]

We do not wish to spam any message boards which is why we are posting this in the non segway electric transportation Science Technology Thread.

I say that cause we want to introduce the world to the Segway style Robin M1. The robin m1 is a self balancing electric stand up scooter just like the Segways, the only difference is the size, price and maybe functions.

The Segway style Robin M1 sells for around $2995.00 retail.


We do offer the Robin wholesale, as we have been given permission for a brief time by the manufacturer to negotiate on there behalf ( pending no one takes the usa market before we can get a US citizen to )

So as of this writing 6-17-2013 the usa market is open, but it's only open to a dealer who can afford at least 150 pieces at the time. ( we can deal directly with the mfg for any distributors interested in reselling the Robins, we can go so far as to skype a deal out with the direct factory representative for Robstep, ( Robstep is the name of the mfg )

Lets give a little information on the Robin. The Robin just came out in late, late 2010 and has been catching on around the world. ( They are street legal in china unless they have changed the rules recently. ) They havent caught on in the usa yet, mainly due to the lack of press. The Robins will run around 12 mph, weights 40lbs, and has an advanced energy feedback system that puts energy back into the battery when traveling down a hill or slope.

There are many points I could point out about owning a Robin, but the Robin best sells itself, we have put some videos up on our site to demonstrate the versatility of the Robin.

There are videos on our site of the Robin M1 actually going into some ocean somewhere. Yes, the Robin is actually going in the water and waves. We have video proof, Theres even a Video of a Robin M1 pulling a Car!!

The Robin's come with an optional seat, saddlebag, A Golf Caddy, helmets, led lights, rope chain locks, Parking Frame, and many other attachments. We can be emailed at [email protected] for a free pdf. Brochure, or you can click on the link in our signature, or the link in this thread.

We just want to get the word out, who knows, the Robin M1 might be the next big thing, they just need a little push. If you would like to see the videos we spoke of earlier about the Robin, see the link in our signature below, as we are not allowed to post links just yet.

[Rolacoy]

So, it's not a WeedEater? Bad elevator music on the videos. The tires are too small except in a shopping mall. If the Robin ran over a worm it would crash. Not too good a first impression for me, but some on this forum will be nicer than myself..

[RobinM1]

lol, thanks for at least taking the time to check out the Robins, sorry about the elevator music.

We have seen videos of the Robin being driven around in the woods, pulling cars and performing some amazing feats in water, I reckon it just depends on how tough a terrain it is.

[KSagal]

I don't know about nicer, but I am always curious.

I too think the tires are too small, the clearance seems a bit tiny, and the curb cuts or highway seams here are often a bit of a bump. No problem for a segway sized tire, but these may encounter many more issues outside...

Still, I will reserve opinion till I see one.

As you said, first impressions are not great, but I still would like to try one.

Lets face it, there is a transport issue with our segways. If there was a 40 pound unit, capable of doing a similar job, that was easier to transport, it may have a place. People are frequently lamenting the loss of the P model, and that smaller model was Dean's favorite.

I do not recall reading about the batteries. Are they LiIon? Can they go by airplane?

As a rule, I am not much of a fan of knock-offs, but sometime they inspire, actually, frequently they inspire improvements across the board.

[RobinM1]

We just put a link up on our site of a two and a half year old child riding the segway style robin m1 around in the living room. ( and he didnt even run into anything )

If a two and a half year old little boy can learn to ride the robin in close quarters without running into anything, then anybody can learn to ride the robin. Anybody within reason that is, we say that cause we have even seen a guy with half legs riding the robin m1.

Given certain disorders would indeed render the Robin useless to the user with certain disabilities, but long as you are able to stand and keep your balance anybody can learn to ride the robin with ease, and with the optional seat you dont even need to stand, just be able to keep your balance and shift your body weight.

[RobinM1]

Agreed, the tires are a bit small, but what the tires lack in size the robin makes up in strength. The battery is a lithium battery and will go about 12 miles or more on a single charge ( depends on the terrain as the Robin has an advanced energy feedback sytem that puts power back into the battery when going down a slow or hill. ), and yes we have shipped many of them by Airfreight by dhl, they arrive in the usa usually within 48 hrs of receiving a tracking number and they clear customs immidately.

As for the speed the robin has two speeds, one is about 6 mph, and the other is about 10 mph, the robin can be unlocked as well to pull behind you when you are in a no travel zone.

If I could post the website up, we have a video or two of the Robin overcoming at least a 4" curb. Google keyword ( Robin M1 ) we are the first result.

[Rolacoy]

A Segway is too heavy, but so is an old Cadillac and it rides so goood! The price is quite high, I think I only gave $5200 each for our Segways, and we got a lot for our buck.

[KSagal]

A Segway is too heavy, but so is an old Cadillac and it rides so goood! The price is quite high, I think I only gave $5200 each for our Segways, and we got a lot for our buck.

I don't happen to be a Cadillac guy, but I see your point. I am VERY unlikely to give up my segway for a robbin.

But if we take your car analogy one natural step farther, if the segway is the Cadillac, then this may be the chevette! Now, I am not a chevette guy either, but there surely was a market for them, and lots were sold. For all I know, it may not even be that good. It may the Yogo. But even they had their fans.

I am very suspect of this being worth its cost. But, I have not seen it, and choose to see it first, before I make definitive statements about it.

I did see and ride a Q scooter and a Rad-to-Go. That is why I am happy to say what a bad product they were.

[RobinM1]

I know the videos are a little grainy but I belive it's the second video now on our site that shows the robin going in the water. Now we definately wouldnt recommend that, but I say that to say this,,,,and Im not defending the robin just because we sell them, Im defending them because if you look you can see with your own eyes the robin being engulfed in water, that at the very least shows how well it is put together.

Now weather or not it kept running a few minutes after the video is a mystery, but the fact that it could take a full wave over it and keep going shows it's pretty well put together.

And yea, Im thinking the Segway will always be the Cadillac, but at the same time maybe like you said the Robin M1 could be the Chevette of Segways.

[Cybercat]

It may the Yogo.

I think you meant Yugo (as in, "You Go, It Doesn't." :D)

Regardless of the merits of the Robin (and I agree - the clearance is just too low), I have little respect for products which try to trade off the names of others. In this case, the OP's signature link is to a page with the URL "SegwaysForSale." The first line of the page says, "Are you looking for Segways for sale? Were not trying to mislead you by getting you to this page." Well, yes, that's exactly what you're trying to do. It's the same deceptive tactic used in a lot of ebay listing titles. If you want to title your URL "SegwayAlternative," then no harm, no foul. But "SegwaysForSale", then you're simply misleading people to get them to your site.

Once I question the integrity of the seller, I have to question the quality of the product.

[KSagal]

I think you meant Yugo (as in, "You Go, It Doesn't." :D)

Regardless of the merits of the Robin (and I agree - the clearance is just too low), I have little respect for products which try to trade off the names of others. In this case, the OP's signature link is to a page with the URL "SegwaysForSale." The first line of the page says, "Are you looking for Segways for sale? Were not trying to mislead you by getting you to this page." Well, yes, that's exactly what you're trying to do. It's the same deceptive tactic used in a lot of ebay listing titles. If you want to title your URL "SegwayAlternative," then no harm, no foul. But "SegwaysForSale", then you're simply misleading people to get them to your site.

Once I question the integrity of the seller, I have to question the quality of the product.

You do make a great point. If you got me in front of you to try to sell me this thing or that with a Lie, then why would I guess that the claims you make about the product are not lies as well?

[RobinM1]

You do make a great point. If you got me in front of you to try to sell me this thing or that with a Lie, then why would I guess that the claims you make about the product are not lies as well?

The product sells itself, we will be the first to admit we are not salesman. You cant say something isnt true unless you know for sure. Your Assuming......breat up the word.

[Rolacoy]

They must have it crammed pretty tight to fit the battery, gyros and the electronics in that package. I once went to a school board in our small town. We were discussing the cost of education. I told them that we were paying for a Cadillac and getting a Yogo. I was not very popular. I reach for the tact of Karl, my reason for reading this forum.

[KSagal]

They must have it crammed pretty tight to fit the battery, gyros and the electronics in that package. I once went to a school board in our small town. We were discussing the cost of education. I told them that we were paying for a Cadillac and getting a Yogo. I was not very popular. I reach for the tact of Karl, my reason for reading this forum.

Ha Ha! I cannot think of a better example of a man who has set the bar very, very low!

I find it difficult to imagine anyone using my level of tact, which is often inverted, as some sort of objective to reach for. I am far more familiar with people trying to distance themselves from my decisions. ;)

Your example is a great one, however. I too have gotten involved locally, even to the point of running for a seat on the school board, because I have found that most public education organizations will take any and all problems, and see the only possible solution is to throw money at it. Would not be such a problem, but it is our tax money they are using to fix any and all problems. Truly a situation where we pay over and over for the Cadillac and barely get the Yugo. I believe that frequently we pay for a fleet of caddies and get one out of tune Yugo, often with that little doughnut of a spare instead of a tire...

[RobinM1]

The Robins almost made it to QVC. We recently sold a Robin M1 to Aaron Krauss ( the scrub daddy king from QVC ) he was featured on the network show SHARKS, and he's currently doing the scrub daddy thing on qvc now, if you can find the episode on the internet aaron cut a deal with lorie ( qvc shark ) to get the scrub daddys on qvc and to help with promotions. Aaron himself does the acting so to speak on qvc for the scrub daddys, so thats aaron your looking at when you see the qvc videos.

Aaron bought a Robin M1 from us and was absolutely thrilled with the Robin, he was thrilled so much in fact that he came to us for negotiations on selling the robin M1 on qvc. ( We have his blessings to use him as a reference ) We didnt come to a deal as he said it was just to much for him to handle at the moment with all that he had going on, and that qvc could be very tricky.

Aaron said he he loved the robin and would recommend us to all his friends, and that maybe one day in the future we might could resume negotiations, ( he acts like he really wants to do the Robins on QVC he's just got to much going on and it would take up to much of his time. )

Robstep offered Aaron and us exclusive wholesale rights to wholesale the Robins in the usa. The deal is still open for negotiations, so anybody who's interested can contact us and we can discuss the Options for the Robin. This kind of deal can make someone very very wealthy as the Robins havent caught on yet in the usa. Obviously we want a small piece of the pie for our efforts.

All negotiations will need to go through us as we have been given permission by Robstep to negotiate on there behalf. Any attempt to cut us out of the deal so to speak, would only help us in the end anyway, so it's better to work with us than to try and be sneaky and cut us out. We are in the Robins deep and it would be crazy to not negotiate with us, as any advertising would directly benefit us in the end, not to mention you will not get as good a deal unless you go through us.

We can get the best deal possible with The Robin M1 from Robstep as we have become very close with several of the Executives.

We know robsteps bottom line, no BS, cant go any lower wholesale number. ( very privy info ) Not to many people know this number and we cant discuss it either unless you are a serious investor willing to buy at least 150 pieces.

To help the Robins get a foot hold in the usa market, we can offer promo codes to business owners where if they refer a buying customer to us we pay them a fee, via paypal after the customer has paid and received there Robin m1. Contact us for details at ( [email protected] ) This is for business owners only and not offered to the general public.

[jgbackes]

Are you willing to indemnify us against legal action from Segway?

[RobinM1]

Just like a car is a car, a truck is a truck, etc etc. There is no other way to descirbe the Robin m1 except to call it a segway style. There are all kinds of trucks,....ford, chevy, etc etc. Just like there are all kinds of cars...nissan, toyota, etc. etc

The robin M1 is not associated in any form with the segway. The robin m1 is a segway style Balancing Scooter. So there should be no need to indemnify legal action with the segway, as the two are totally different products, but with similar functions.

Ford cant sue Toyota cause the toyota says we have a Toyota ( truck ) a ford truck is also a (truck.) they both are vehicles, just made by different manufacturers, both use either Truck, Car, Suv, or Mini Van to describe there vehicle, the same way we use segway to describe the Robin....The Robin m1 is a Segway Style Alternative, not a segway.

[infinitronics]

Wait for it....

You're*

:)

(in the 'tagline' for RobinM1)

[eJM]

Just like a car is a car, a truck is a truck, etc etc. There is no other way to descirbe the Robin m1 except to call it a segway style.
Sorry, but I'm callin' BS on that. Toyota doesn't call their trucks "Ford style vehicles", they use a generic term like truck. Olympus doesn't call their cameras "Nikon style photographic devices", they call them cameras. You should not be calling the Robin M1 a "Segway style" anything because it's just a non-tandem, 2-wheeled scooter, or EPAMD, or any other generic term.

Your website and promotional slight-of-hand is despicable and deceptive. And I don't know why the SegwayChat website administration/owners are allowing you to promote your device on a Segway forum. Talk about it, sure, but you are giving a sales spiel.

Just my opinion.

Jim

[RobinM1]

Here are your words, word for word ((( "NIKON style photographic devices", they call them CAMERAS. ))) YOU MADE MY POINT WITH YOUR OWN WORDS////////// You cant describe a segway scooter without using the word segway, ...... SEGWAY HAS BECOME NOT JUST A NAME BRAND BUT A UNIVERSAL UNDERSTANDING OF A DEVICE

All truck are call trucks, all cars are called cars. You smell BS, I smell someone who doesn't want the Robins around. And this post is posted in the non segway related catagory. The robin is a segway style personal transporter, there is no other way to describe it. Just like a truck is a truck, a tv is a tv, a microwave is a microwave........Can you describe a microwave to someone without using the word microwave? Can you tell someone to watch tv without using the word? How many different manufacturers of microwaves and tv's do you know?

And ok,,,,,lets go with cameras since you used that example. You ask someone..... Take a picture with my Olympus, ( camera ) unless they know you had an olympus camera, if you asked that question to someone they'd be clueless as to what you wanted, unless YOU said, hand me my OLYMPUS CAMERA or CAMERA, there are tons of different cameras, but all cameras take pictures.

And we are not beind deceptive, the link in this forum plainly says " Segway Alternative ", and speaking of which we are currently looking for a segway dealer to add the segways to our page, we are not against the segway, we love the segways also, but see nothing wrong with a little diversity in the market, and the people who fear change are the people who are stuck in the past.

Were not Promoting the Robin Here either like you make it to sound, Were trying to put the word out and let people know there is another option now, and that segway cant have the entire world market anymore.

[JW Hunter]

Isn't the Robin utilizing the same dynamic stabilization technology that Segway or DEKA rather has patent on?

[RobinM1]

The Robin M1 has it's own patents. And to go into more depth on that one as well. Wheels, tires, windshields, etc ets. are part of every vehicle, not just one particular make. Taken a step further. All cars and truck have engines, those engines all have many components that make them run, and there pretty much all the same far as powering a car.....pistons that move back and forth inside a block to produce energy. The same thing goes with the Robin, the robin has it's own Computer Controlled Gyro system to keep balance, so there are no patent infringements.

[JW Hunter]

Are all of the systems redundant for safety as they are with the Segway?

What chemistry do the batteries use?

[RobinM1]

To be honest we are not that familiar with the Segways safety systems. We can however tell you that the robin's angles are adjustable. Meaning you can tinker with the sensativity of the Robin to best suit your needs. ( this does require a general knowledge of using the blue tooth function with the robin and a smart phone or tablet )

The Robin does have safety features to keep the rider from abruptly falling off if there is a sudden malfunction, the robin will slow then come to a halt, if thats what you are asking, but just like with a segway, if you cant keep your balance your sure to fall off, lol

[eJM]

Truck = generic term
Camera = generic term
Scooter = generic term
EPAMD = generic term




Segway = BRAND NAME

Who you tryin' to kid?

[RobinM1]

Again, read me carefully and do try to comprehend, even old dogs can learn new things..........




SEGWAY HAS BECOME NOT JUST A NAME BRAND BUT A UNIVERSAL UNDERSTANDING OF A DEVICE......Newspapers, TV shows and everybody else we can think of refers to the Computer contolled gyroscope devices as segway type or style, ......o.......is the word gyroscope taken to?

Can you describe a microwave to someone without using the word microwave? Can you tell someone to watch tv without using the word? How many different manufacturers of microwaves and tv's do you know?

[Bob.Kerns]

The elephant in the room is the matter of patents being presumably violated.

Trademark violation is a somewhat more subtle issue.

[goldwing_midland_tx]

I notice one of the claims in the advertisements state how there are so many types of Segways to buy. Unless you know of some top secret models, there are only two, an I2 and and X2. Before you talk about all the earlier models, those are not current. With statements like that, makes it really hard to believe other statements.

As far as calling "Segway type vehicles" as being generic, that would be like calling all copiers Xerox type. It is true that people say go make a Xerox of this paper, however I highly doubt another brand says theirs is a Xerox type copier. Why can't you call your device a self balancing two wheel parallel scooter. There are other knock offs which you could call your device instead of Segway type. Again, I find that pretty deceptive.

[RobinM1]

You can check ebay and find allot of model segways for sale, not just the i2 and x2, so those model segways are vey much so current even if they are used.

We have already responded to your other allegations please read the thread, you are fully within your rights for your opinion:)

[JW Hunter]

Who is the importer of the Robin and who stands behind the warranty?

[RobinM1]

Robstep is the importer for the Robin and they stand behind there warranty

[CovRob]

Segway established the self-balancing transporter market and the company name is now a label that trips off the tongue more readily than EPAMD, self-balancing tandem personal transporter, etc., etc. The company "Segway" produces more than 2 wheeled self balancing machines, but those offerings are even more of a niche market than their most widely recognised product.

In the UK at least, and possibly further afield, the brand name "Hoover" became a general term for other makes of vacuum cleaner. "I'm Hoovering" is commonly used instead of "I'm vacuuming". There are many manufacturers of vacuum cleaners and Hoover makes many household appliances, but the vacuum cleaner dominates their public image...at least on this side of the pond. What other manufacturers DON'T do is refer to their vacuum cleaners as a "Hoover-type" of machine.

Robin is attempting to raise their profile. Using the excuse that many other clones of the technology are referring to themselves as "Segway-style" - even the child's Dareway are resold on eBay and the like in such a manner. Private individuals can understandably be sloppy in their use of terminology. However, in my opinion, a representative of a competing manufacturer should respect the intellectual rights to the trademarked name "Segway" and resist its use when referring to their own product. They really ought not appear to become irritated when pulled up on such a matter when posting on a forum created for the enthusiasts of Segway's product.

Of course, if you want to promote your product using examples such as this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251293890677&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123#ht_1081wt_1382)as the justification for using the term "Segway-style"... :rolleyes:

[RobinM1]

Very well spoken Sir.:) If we come off as a little irritated I do apolojise, but we have our views and others have theres and I guess it's one will against another cause we are all entitled to our opinions:)

Make no mistake tho we are not dowing the Segway in anyway. Segways have paved the way for the future of vehicles in our opinion. We simply want people to know there are other options out there, and were not above selling segways on our site, as a matter of fact we'd love to offer our audience a choice or several choices, but it would have to be a firm deal.

[jgbackes]

You answered a question, but not the question I asked…

Are you willing to indemnify us against legal action from Segway?

A simple yes or no please.

[RobinM1]

I thought I did answer your question ((( The robin M1 is not associated in any form with the segway. The robin m1 is a segway style Balancing Scooter. So there should be no need to indemnify legal action with the segway, as the two are totally different products, but with similar functions )))


But to be specific thats a question you would have to take up with the manufacturer, as I do not have that authority.

[KSagal]

I agree with eJM. RobinM1 is worse than a troll, he is playing word games that are simply not true at best, outright lies at worst.

The Segway Personal Transporter is a device that is not unlike other devices, in that it is a machine made by a company that has copyrighted it's name, and owns it and it's use.

As has been said, if a machine uses a xerographic process, we usually call it a copier. If we call it a Xerox machine, but it is made by Sharp Electronics, we would be wrong, but Neither Xerox nor Sharp would care that much, because we are not actively trying to deceive or siphon off customers. That is not the case here.

If you want to say that a copier company can try to increase their revenue by calling their copier a "Xerox like device" they will loose in court, because the name "Xerox" is a registered trademark, and is owned by Xerox, and no one else can use it to make money, as would be similar to the case here.

Segway has registered their name, and using it in conjunction to try to make money for some other company is just wrong. To try to prove that the name segway is somehow common language to represent an EPAMD is bull. That is why companies register their name and trademarks, so that others cannot try to increase their revenues by using those names. That is also why all the many laws that mention the devices in their legislation do not call the devices segways, but epamds.

By the way, posting here on a Segway Enthusiast site, and trying to hawk some other machine, is low class. IF you want to talk about how great the Robin is, post it on the Robin enthusiast site. No, wait, that is too much like real work, and honest work, because that indicate that you feel the Robin is good enough to sell itself on its own merit, instead of trying to scalp potential segway users.

Many of us are curious about alternate products, even knock offs and cheap copies. I myself was happy to ride a Q scooter, so I could compare it and speak about it from a position of knowledge. The machine I rode belonged to another, so I cannot speak to the marketing that got him to buy it.

I know that I would not go to a Ford enthusiast site to try to sell Toyotas, and would not expect a warm welcome.

I believe we have already given this back alley rube more than enough courtesy, and it is time for him to move on. This has all the credibility as the guy in Time Square selling Rolex 'Alternatives' from a card table.

I am afraid that if this is the best scruples that the Robin machine can muster then the machine must be worth something that matches the deceit that is being displayed. Too bad. I was hoping it was a machine that was good enough to stand on its own, and did not need liars to hawk it.

The segway was good enough to inspire excitement on its own. It did not try to capitalize on someone else's name and reputation to lure potential marks to them.

Again, start with a lie or deceit, and you will not get me to believe the next things you say.

[RobinM1]

I should expect such hate mail from segway enthusiast, but a troll? No sir, an you call us a back alley rube and your about tired of us? When you point a finger at someone you have four pointing back at you, no one is forcing you to read this post, you just want to argure about something. Thats whats wrong with the world today, everybody wanna blame everybody else for what happens to them and be arguementative.

I have yet to put the segways down here in this forum, but without even knowing you readily put the robin down, just shows ignorance and fear in my eyes, Last time I checked I know of no segway that can be controlled by a smart phone or tablet? Do you? There are many advantages of owning a robin over a segway for sale but I have not once pointed them out.

Your too busy worrying about what Im going to say next and not concerened at all with the Robin, and to be honest with you, your attitude, it really doesn't matter what you say, as you have shown your childish behavior already ( sound like a 2 year old whos toy got taken away )

Your sad if all you can do is accuse and make false accussations about the Robin. The moderator has the last say on what gets posted but dont get upset cause we defend ourselves.

Competition fears change and so do you aparantely, come on back with some more quick whips, we can do this all day, but my point is made, if you can read the thread we've addressed your wines and cries about the segway word, and will refer to the previous posts for people who cannot read.

[gbrandwood]

Would now be a good time to advertise the new T3-style Segway Patroller model?

^^ just a joke guys! :)

I think it is reasonable for Robin to post something in this forum but some of the marketing tactics don't sit well with me.

Whilst we may get angry about it, Segway INC should be doing something about it. They should spend more time putting cases like this to bed and less time beating up tour operators (who use Segways) and also use "Segway" in their name. And more time improving their two wheel products than resorting to creating 3 wheel copycats... just my opinion.

[KSagal]

I should expect such hate mail from segway enthusiast, but a troll? No sir, an you call us a back alley rube and your about tired of us? When you point a finger at someone you have four pointing back at you, no one is forcing you to read this post, you just want to argure about something. Thats whats wrong with the world today, everybody wanna blame everybody else for what happens to them and be arguementative.

I have yet to put the segways down here in this forum, but without even knowing you readily put the robin down, just shows ignorance and fear in my eyes, Last time I checked I know of no segway that can be controlled by a smart phone or tablet? Do you? There are many advantages of owning a robin over a segway for sale but I have not once pointed them out.

Your too busy worrying about what Im going to say next and not concerened at all with the Robin, and to be honest with you, your attitude, it really doesn't matter what you say, as you have shown your childish behavior already ( sound like a 2 year old whos toy got taken away )

Your sad if all you can do is accuse and make false accussations about the Robin. The moderator has the last say on what gets posted but dont get upset cause we defend ourselves.

Competition fears change and so do you aparantely, come on back with some more quick whips, we can do this all day, but my point is made, if you can read the thread we've addressed your wines and cries about the segway word, and will refer to the previous posts for people who cannot read.

RobinM1,

Do not get confused. I am not trashing your Robin machine, I am trashing you, the person who has come into another persons house, and said we should disregard the intellectual property of the name "Segway" because you want to sell us something else. Just because you have decided to disregard the law and the ownership of the word Segway does not make the matter settled. Several others have said your use of the words are wrong, yet you disregard them, and say the matter is settled. It is, and you are wrong.

It does not matter what the machine is like. I will not but pure gold from a liar, because if all I know is that the man I am speaking to is a liar, then how will I know if it is really pure gold?

If you want to sell your 'segway alternative', have a good time. I have said many times I am curious, and would look into them when I have the opportunity. I am not worried about the machine, and stated I was disappointed in its spokesman, as that reflects poorly on the machine.

Again, that is because we do not know the machine at all. All we know is your tactics. You are forcing us to make a decision on the machine based on how we feel about you.

This is a technology forum that would not shy away, nor be unhappy with a person from Robbin talking about their machine. Just not here so clearly trying to siphon off segway customers.

Talk about the merits of the machine itself. Tell people if they are interested, tell them about your own web site with your own enthusiasts. Talk about your stuff, but not with the sales pitch. Tell people about what they want to hear about, and send them to your own site if they are willing to go, to get your sales pitch.

I do not feel at all that you have taken my toys. You do not have the capacity. I feel instead that you have come to a party in my back yard, and instead of being happy to be there, you are telling all my guests in my back yard as to how your back yard party is better, and they should consider going to your back yard party instead. But then you tell them that they have to buy 150 machines for us to talk to them. I said it before, and others have as well, it is rude and out of place.

And for the record, Segway did demonstrate a machine that was controllable from a smart phone, but it was not available to the public. It was a prototype that did not go into production, that I am aware of. Lots of video of it, but not available for people to simply go and buy.

Kind of like the same results we have been speaking of for months and months on this forum about the Robbin. (Long before this thread). Lots of video, no easy way to actually purchase one.

You can stay in this backyard, just stop trying to sell your back yard. Saying that the moderators are responsible for you managing your own behavior is like saying the police are responsible to stop you from committing crimes. That is silly. You are responsible to stop yourself from committing crimes, and for managing your own behavior. The moderators may step in if necessary, but we can easily deal with our own back yard party without the need for the police or moderators. Be nice, and people will be nice. Nice included not being rude or inappropriate.

And be careful of calling my posts hate mail. If I had wanted to post hate mail, you would not be at all unaware of it, nor would you have needed to chide me as a two year old. I call it as I see it, and if you are inappropriate in my eyes, it is not because I hate you, it is because you are inappropriate. You speak about me blaming others, yet it is exactly what you have done!

[RobinM1]

oooooo k, here we go again. There you go being abusive with your words and saying your thrashing me and not the robin, when in essence I have done nothing wrong to force my opinion on anybody,.... ( do you know it's harder to get honey from a bee hive when you kick it )

We have not overly posted anything about the robin for defending accusations about the name segway. Type in google, segway alternative, theres even a site called segscooters.

We didnt come into your back yard and talk trash about your back yard or try to get people to leave and come to our party, we came into your back yard with good intentions of elevating you to a new perspecitve on the Segway options and alternatives that are available on the market today, you just didnt want to hear it, your motto is I shouldnt be here anyways, thats the way you've come off.

Not once have we said anything negative about the segway, and if you judge the robin M1 on my words and not the machine, then you have to judge the segway on your words and not just the machine.

You have come off as very insecure and jealous of the Robin M1 and it's attempt to enter the main market, and the only excuse you can find to dislike it, is that you dislike me and my words...Because we use the word ( segway ) alternative.

If we have upset you it was unintentional and we will be the bigger man so to speak ( Im a woman by the way ) and apolojise, as we would only like to educate the public about the robin m1, .... unfortunately we've spent allot of time arguing the point of the segway word and not enough about the features about the Robin.

We would love to tell all the features and benefits of the robin, if we can get people to get over the fact that it's not just us who use segway to describe there product, there are literraly hundreds of sites on the internet that advertise segway style, segway alternative, segway type, and so forth, so clearly we didn't come to this tacktic on our own.

We can clearly refrain from this if it's going to keep you upset, our goal is not to upset anyone, but yet to educate the public on the advantages of the robin. If you will refrain from thrashing me and the Robin Im sure I can come up with some excellent points to point out for the Robin in some future posts.

[JW Hunter]

I seriously believe the challenge for the Robin, or any other Chinese knockoffs that they send over here, is the lack of support by any substantive or established company to stand behind the warranty and service the device.

If reading the blogs & websites promoting the Robin is any indication as to their quality control it will leave much to be desired.

I suspect there won't be many who are willing to throw $3000 up against the wall in hopes that someone will answer the phone when they have an issue.

[RobinM1]

That is a very good point you make. We will be the first to agree on that statement, except for the part about the robin being a cheap knock off, lol :)

We offer excellent customer service for the Robin's we sell, we cant speak for others who sell the robin's, but we treat all our customers the way we want to be treated.

If there is a problem with the Robin, we stand behind our customer until the problem is resolved, interestingly enough we have had very very few problems with the Robins, the few problems we have had, we delt with them accordingly, and the customer was happy in the end.

But yes, we absolutely agree with you, customer service for some of the Robin sellers could be better, but far as we go, we do everything within our power to fix the problem should one arrise.

Roboscooters is still a young company and so is Robstep ( the manufacturer ) our goal in the future is to not only to sell and service the robins but to sell and service Segways as well.

[JW Hunter]

I didn't say anything about the Robin being "cheap"… I did allude to the fact that it is a knockoff and it is most certainly a knockoff.

I actually don't think it is "cheap" at all, at the end of the day I'd buy a Segway because I know where they're assembled and I know where the company is located. We always hope to get what we pay for and it is often the case that we get exactly that.

Abraham Lincoln has been quoted as saying:

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."

Best of luck to you in your endeavors.

[RobinM1]

Very well Spoken:) as Im sure youre not the only one who feels that way, and we completely understand, were as human as you are and just as much American .;) so we can relate.

[Rolacoy]

You all are just feeding the dog. Stop feeding him and he will go away.

[Bob.Kerns]

I am going to be charitable here, and assume that you believe what you're saying.

You are seriously mistaken about how patents work. I will not try to judge whether the Robin violates Segway's patents. That is for Segway, INC to determine, and then the courts, if they choose.

But the fact that there are patents on the Robin is absolutely ZERO protection against infringement against Segway's patents!

The reason this is important to me is, if you and the manufacturer are proceeding in ignorance, and DO get sued, and lose, one of the possible outcomes is that you will be barred from selling. This will harm your customers.

There's much to like about the Robin. But I'm not about to invest my hard-earned money based on the assurances of non-infringement from someone who clearly doesn't even understand what infringement IS.

The same is true, to a lesser degree, with the matter of the Segway trademark. Trademarks only become generic if the owner of the trademark does not take steps to protect them. We know for a fact that Segway actually does protect their trademark. They have sent cease-and-desist letters to a number of websites and other operators in the past few weeks.

So you are mistaken in your belief that "Segway" is a generic term. There are ways you CAN refer to the Segway brand, in the form of a comparison, but I would advice consulting an attorney on that.

If you are honest in your belief that you are doing nothing wrong, then I am doing you a favor in pointing these things out. You are setting yourself AND your customers for failure.

The *ideal* outcome here, would be for your manufacturer (or maybe even you) to reach a licensing agreement with Segway. Such an agreement would free you from the legal issues, help your marketing (because customers would have more confidence) and also give Segway some revenue in recognition to their contribution to the technology.

Exactly how much revenue that ought to be, I can't say. To start with, you would need to read each of Segway, INC's patents, examining the Claims section, and comparing them with what the Robin does.

I also can't say that Segway, INC, would be open to a licensing deal. I would hope so -- but I kind of doubt it. But new ownership might do things differently.

In any event -- the response you are seeing here is not because this is bunch of closed-minded haters. Such people are pretty unlikely to use a Segway, actually. Rather, it's directly in response to how you are doing business.

But I'm not surprised by it. Given the issues with patents, and how the Robin was being promoted to potential distributors, I don't think anyone who would approach it differently, would have agreed to become a distributor in the first place.

In all honesty, I think you have been played for a sucker. Whether it is your ethics or your ignorance which has made vulnerable, I can't say.

It's a shame. I think the people behind the Robin put in a lot of hard work, and brought a fair bit of engineering talent to the table. I did some research into the company a while back. Reading between the lines, there seems to be some sort of industrial incubator with Guangdong University of Technology, that has helped them move from idea to fairly large-scale production far quicker than Segway Inc was able to achieve.

The product would offer a quite distinct alternative to what Segway INC is offering. As a consumer, I'd like to see more choices like this.

But if you're going to fail over legal issues, I hope it's soon and less painfully. Maybe something positive could even come out of it -- a partnership, rather than a legal battle you'd lose. But that would require creativity on the Segway INC side that I don't expect to see...

[KSagal]

oooooo k, here we go again. There you go being abusive with your words and saying your thrashing me and not the robin, when in essence I have done nothing wrong to force my opinion on anybody,.... ( do you know it's harder to get honey from a bee hive when you kick it )

Okay, here I will agree, in that I have used much more aggressive and negative words than you. But, of course, I am not trying to coerce anyone to do anything, but rather to expose a sweet speaking salesman. And for the record, it does not matter about kicking the bee hive, if the honey you want to collect is actually owned by someone else.


We have not overly posted anything about the robin for defending accusations about the name segway. Type in google, segway alternative, theres even a site called segscooters.

We didnt come into your back yard and talk trash about your back yard or try to get people to leave and come to our party, we came into your back yard with good intentions of elevating you to a new perspecitve on the Segway options and alternatives that are available on the market today, you just didnt want to hear it, your motto is I shouldnt be here anyways, thats the way you've come off.
You speak of new Segway Options, but you do not have Segway options, as they would need to come from Segway. You attempt to make believe that your copies are a segway option, but they are not, anymore than a picture of a sunset is a sunset.

Not once have we said anything negative about the segway, and if you judge the robin M1 on my words and not the machine, then you have to judge the segway on your words and not just the machine.
This is a good point, but not true. I know segways, own segways, and have compared them against other copies. I have not had the opportunity with the Robbin. Where can I test one, or speak to someone who owns one? I have said before and say again, I am open and curious to check one out.

You have come off as very insecure and jealous of the Robin M1 and it's attempt to enter the main market, and the only excuse you can find to dislike it, is that you dislike me and my words...Because we use the word ( segway ) alternative. Not hardly. Worthy competition improves the market. Have at it, just do not lie or do illegal things.

If we have upset you it was unintentional and we will be the bigger man so to speak ( Im a woman by the way ) and apolojise, as we would only like to educate the public about the robin m1, .... unfortunately we've spent allot of time arguing the point of the segway word and not enough about the features about the Robin. This is a fair statement, but as you have assigned motives to my statements that were inaccurate (insecure and jealous)I'll assign the same two words to your motives about real Segways. I do believe you were not intending to upset, but the unintentional part was that you were not expecting to be held accountable to the actual words you are using.

To that end, it appears that there are many spelling and gramatical errors in your postings, yet you seem very lucid and have a good vocabulary. I wonder, are you using a translator? Where are you posting from? I am Posting from near Boston, in the US.

We would love to tell all the features and benefits of the robin, if we can get people to get over the fact that it's not just us who use segway to describe there product, there are literraly hundreds of sites on the internet that advertise segway style, segway alternative, segway type, and so forth, so clearly we didn't come to this tacktic on our own.
We would also like to hear of the features and benefits of the Robbin, but other infringements of the Segway brand do not motivate me to discount your inappropriate use of it, and those other products do not come to this forum and post here, or they would get similar responses.

We can clearly refrain from this if it's going to keep you upset, our goal is not to upset anyone, but yet to educate the public on the advantages of the robin. If you will refrain from thrashing me and the Robin Im sure I can come up with some excellent points to point out for the Robin in some future posts.
I too would like to dial back the negative rhetoric, and lets hear some of those excellent points, and where to try one.

That is a very good point you make. We will be the first to agree on that statement, except for the part about the robin being a cheap knock off, lol :)

We offer excellent customer service for the Robin's we sell, we cant speak for others who sell the robin's, but we treat all our customers the way we want to be treated.

If there is a problem with the Robin, we stand behind our customer until the problem is resolved, interestingly enough we have had very very few problems with the Robins, the few problems we have had, we delt with them accordingly, and the customer was happy in the end.

But yes, we absolutely agree with you, customer service for some of the Robin sellers could be better, but far as we go, we do everything within our power to fix the problem should one arrise.

Roboscooters is still a young company and so is Robstep ( the manufacturer ) our goal in the future is to not only to sell and service the robins but to sell and service Segways as well.

You say your intention is to sell and service Segways as well. Do you have an agreement with them to do this?

[RobinM1]

No no translator, I am from Eastern NC. We really meant no harm with our words in using segway style, we were under the impression that it's allowed on ebay, amazon, and all over the interent that it had become some what a way of describing a segway style vehicle. We cant take back our words and descriptions but we will do our best to refrain from calling the robin a seg.... alternative.

We have even seen pictures and videos of a segway and a robin together, so who knows what kind of deal they may or may not have worked out, most likely none.

In the video with the robin and the segway the robin literraly ran circles around the segway in a shopping mall. Agreed a segway has more clearance and can go more places, but robins are smaller and more convienent, they weigh only 40lbs and you could fit two of them in the trunck of a car if you wanted.

The robin even comes with an optional saddlebags, a seat, a Golf caddy for the golfers and a parking frame for the trunk.

You can also remote control the Robin M with an android powered smart phone or tablet if you want.

Unfortunately there is no where to test the robin that we know of here in the usa yet. The robins havent really caught on, and to that we know is an obvious draw back.

We put a post up earlier where we sold a Robin M1 to Aaron krauss ( The scrub daddy king from QVC ) He was seen on the tv show sharks. He gave us his permission to use him as a reference for the Robin. He was very interested in selling the robins on QVC but ultimately did not take the deal.
Were not giving his email out or anything but your free to google him.

[Lily Kerns]

Aha! I think this discussion is finally beginning to make some progress. That is good for everyone.

[KSagal]

Again, words. You have stated that you do not think we should judge the robbin on your words alone, but what else do you have to offer?

Let us know where someone we know, or we ourselves have access to a Robbin, and this conversation will take a different direction.

You have said that Robbins have not really caught on, but that indicates they were available for sale, and people chose not to buy them. Is this so? If so, where were they available to buy?

I have seen many products over the years where a few preproduction models were produced, and videos taken of them. Then based on those videos, sales are made. Some times the products are produced, and people get their products, sometimes they are never produced, and people do not get their machines.

I too have seen videos of machines that are being produced, (Segways) with other machines that are not being produced (Robbins?) in order to make the pre-production machines seem more real or more available. This does not make them so.

Segway made a centaur. Nice machine. I would love to own one. I rode it. It does not exist, in that they never made it for production, nor made it available for sale. Yet there are all kinds of videos of it. Of course, they also never went onto other peoples websites and tried to sell it or dealerships for it either...

Let us know when Robbins are available for sale, and where we should go (your own websites) to look more into buying one, if we want.

Again, talk is talk. I like how you said that the robbin ran circles around the segway. Have you ever been on either? You should enjoy your own product, but I will happily take that statement and turn it around on you. Get a Robbin, bring it to Boston, and we will put it next to the segway, and we can record it. I will go to a mall or where ever with you, and we will see who runs circles around whom.

Till that or something like it happens, talk is just talk.

[RobinM1]

You can click on any of the signatures in our links or go to roboscooters.com, and if I may be allowed to do so by the admin, here is a link to a page where the robin runs circles around a robin at a shopping mall, were not affiliated in any shape with this video, but here is your proof that you wanted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2q9qOmS_X8

[Bob.Kerns]

You can click on any of the signatures in our links or go to roboscooters.com, and if I may be allowed to do so by the admin, here is a link to a page where the robin runs circles around a robin at a shopping mall, were not affiliated in any shape with this video, but here is your proof that you wanted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2q9qOmS_X8

I was struck by two things:

1) The use of an X2 instead of i2 for the comparison.

2) The rider of the X2 obviously didn't know what he was doing.

I wouldn't say the Robin ran circles around a Robin (or a Segway, which I think is what you meant!), even so. It DID, however, "fit in" to the environment better.

For security, that's not really what they're looking for. For consumer acceptance, however, it probably is.

[Bob.Kerns]

No no translator, I am from Eastern NC. We really meant no harm with our words in using segway style, we were under the impression that it's allowed on ebay, amazon, and all over the interent that it had become some what a way of describing a segway style vehicle. We cant take back our words and descriptions but we will do our best to refrain from calling the robin a seg.... alternative.

I really do suggest consulting a trademark attorney on this. For a few hundred bucks, you can get better information about what you can and can't do and how to avoid trouble, and protect your business interests.

And if you know what you CAN do, you can communicate better with your customers. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to make comparisons (like "the lightweight, affordable alternative to the Segway(TM)"). But it's not a topic where you should take advice from some non-lawyer on the internet (e.g. me).

[KSagal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=l486tKKIifY
( I do not know how to embed the actual video instead of the link)

The above video link is for the Segway Centaur. It exists, but even if I were to sell it, I cannot deliver it. I see this as just as accurate as your Robbin video.

Clearly, in your video, that particular Segway which looked like a modified X2, was not being used as it should or could. That video was designed and made to show off the Robbin in its best light, and the segway in its worst.

Again, I ask if you have actually been on either machine?

[KSagal]

Hey Robbin...

Since we have been told there are no Robbins in the US to use, we cannot discuss the actual items inside of it.

And since it is clearly a knock off, to me it seems much closer to a Toyota Winglet than any segway. Why don't you call it a Winglet alternative?

Perhaps on the Segway related sites, you call it a Segway Alternative, and on the Toyota related sites you call it a Winglet Alternative?

[Bob.Kerns]

This shows the Robin lacks an important feature of the i2 -- coordination of the balance with the "down" direction. The result is sort of half-way between a gen 1 and gen 2 Segway's steering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wLcZOeBUCo

[RobinM1]

I have had the pleasure of riding a robin on several occassions. I do not currently own one because we keep selling each one we get. I have been through 3 in the last month that we ordered for demos for us.

We are considering stocking and warehousing them in the near future.

I personally have never ridden a segway, but would love to. They are very appealing I have to admit, I love the big sexy tires on some of them.:) That is the foremost reason we got into the robins, it's because I like the segways and always wanted one. Then I met the robin and since it is relatively unheard of in many circles decided to see if we could successfully promote it and help get the word out.

That is is really nice video of the new segway you posted up by the way, thanks. Thats where the future of cars should go.

[Bob.Kerns]

Karl's link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l486tKKIifY

Karl, it seems you have to edit the link down so the part after the '?' only has the v=<code> parameter. Take out the other parameters (separated by '&') and the forum recognizes it and embeds it properly.

[RobinM1]

To mr Kerns. We do appreciate the information but segway has allot bigger fish to fry when it comes to that matter. Ebay, Amazon and the entire internet uses the segways term to describe all sorts of vehichles. Do a search for yourself. Thats where we learned it from.

[Bob.Kerns]

To mr Kerns. We do appreciate the information but segway has allot bigger fish to fry when it comes to that matter. Ebay, Amazon and the entire internet uses the segways term to describe all sorts of vehichles. Do a search for yourself. Thats where we learned it from.

Again, I'm afraid you're mistaken. Neither Amazon nor eBay sell Segways or scooters of any type. Independent sellers (i.e. TINY fish) advertise and sell them on those sites. But it isn't Amazon or eBay that Segway, INC would be suing.

(And in both cases, the vast majority of items found searching for Segway on those sites actually ARE Segways, and most of the rest use the term properly and are careful not to describe themselves as Segways).

If you are at all successful, you would be the big fish.

And from a business ethics standpoint, the idea that "everybody else does it" does not make something right. And it's not very good protection against being sued, either.

The best protection against being sued is to not make any money. But if you're eating into a competitor's business, they may sue you anyway, just to shut you down.

There's (usually, at least one) right way and (always) many wrong ways to go about a business. I hope you find a right way and some success.

I depend on my Segway too much to be really happy about there being only one vendor. And I really do think a product like the Robin could help to grow the overall market.

[Cybercat]

You can click on any of the signatures in our links or go to roboscooters.com, and if I may be allowed to do so by the admin, here is a link to a page where the robin runs circles around a robin at a shopping mall, were not affiliated in any shape with this video, but here is your proof that you wanted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2q9qOmS_X8

Not only was that an X2, but the surface was smooth and even. So the Robin might be better suited for an indoor environment where the surface is smooth, but what happens the moment you need to leave that environment, and there's rough pavement, or you need to traverse grass, or you have to drop off a curb? The Segway allows you to do all that. Based on the Robin's appearance (tire size, etc.), it's unlikely it's going to be able to handle those challenges.

[Tritium]

Not only was that an X2, but the surface was smooth and even. So the Robin might be better suited for an indoor environment where the surface is smooth, but what happens the moment you need to leave that environment, and there's rough pavement, or you need to traverse grass, or you have to drop off a curb? The Segway allows you to do all that. Based on the Robin's appearance (tire size, etc.), it's unlikely it's going to be able to handle those challenges.

Seen in other videos, the M1 is seen going up steep grassy hills and through 10" deep salt water on soft beach sand with ease.
Even through snow.
Also seen is it dropping off curbs, often at speed.
Yes, they are two different things, and obviously the M1 is best suited for sidewalks or shopping malls.
I may just pick one up and have something to play around with.

[JohnG]

Clearly the Robin violates a number of Segway's patents, so it's not going to take them long to get a cease-and-desist against the company from selling the Robin in the US.

Segway's patents (filed by Kamen and others) cover self-balancing, fault detection in a motorized vehicle (e.g., so it doesn't fall over when it hits a bump), etc. He has dozens of them in this area. Kamen & Segway both have legal teams. Don't worry -- they'll be on this knockoff quickly.

I love how a company can just be completely ignorant of U.S. law and expect to sell a product here without regard for it. "Well, others are doing it" is an excuse an 8 year old uses. Not one you expect from a legitimate manufacturer or importer. I suspect they hope to sell as many as they can as quickly as they can, and then when they get shut down, just take the profit and run.

Their bill of materials is probably less than $400. Maybe even half that. Nice profit in there.

John

[Tritium]

Clearly the Robin violates a number of Segway's patents, so it's not going to take them long to get a cease-and-desist against the company from selling the Robin in the US.

Segway's patents (filed by Kamen and others) cover self-balancing, fault detection in a motorized vehicle (e.g., so it doesn't fall over when it hits a bump), etc. He has dozens of them in this area. Kamen & Segway both have legal teams. Don't worry -- they'll be on this knockoff quickly.

I love how a company can just be completely ignorant of U.S. law and expect to sell a product here without regard for it. "Well, others are doing it" is an excuse an 8 year old uses. Not one you expect from a manufacturer or importer.

John

So, do the fault detection and self balancing patents apply to the SoloWheel and airplanes?
I wouldn't call it a knockoff, it's extremely different.
The only 2 similarities I can find are the lean steer and self balancing.

[JW Hunter]

So, do the fault detection and self balancing patents apply to the SoloWheel and airplanes?
I wouldn't call it a knockoff, it's extremely different.
The only 2 similarities I can find are the lean steer and self balancing.

While there may be several other patent infringements the dynamic stabilization "self balancing" violation appears certain.

[Tritium]

While there may be several other patent infringements the dynamic stabilization "self balancing" violation appears certain.

I'm guessing Segway won't take any legal action (TOO) soon, but if the M1 is proven to be infringing on Segways patents, we'll be hearing of it.
I would think with all of the huge differences, the company would just alter the M1's "self balancing" system so that it doesn't infringe, if that's not possible, who knows...

I'll be following this thread for any updates.

[KSagal]

Patent infringement is a tough area. To me, this looks like a Toyota Winglet more than anything, and I do not know if their machine included patent infringements to the segway or Dean either. There could be stolen intellectual property all over this product, or maybe not. Hard to say unless someone we trust has a machine, and it can be looked at critically.

Again, the single thing that makes most sense to sue over is money. If no money is being made, then the cost of the lawyers and the suit is born by the one who sues, regardless of outcome.

Since this knockoff is not available to be purchased in the US, according to this poster, there is not too much there, there.

Of course, an owner of intellectual property can sue for other than money, reputation, good will, slander, and all kinds of other things, but that could be another drain of resources better spent in R & D.

I am sure we can choose the best path of action for the Segway corporation to take here on this board, but I suspect they are not waiting for us to make that decision. I think the professionals there are most likely fully aware of the Robin, and will take the actions they feel in the best interest of the Segway Corporation. I trust they will serve their customers well, and I surely hope my trust is not misplaced. Time will tell.

I am looking forward to seeing what is up with all this when it becomes a reality, and one of those Robbins comes to my neck of the woods, and I have an opportunity to see and feel it.

I just came back from a weekend camping trip with my family and I took the segway and had a blast. All the gliding was on a series of camp dirt roads, lots of rocks and bumps, a fair bit of gravel, and smiles all day long. Owner of the campground has an X2, and he took my modified i2 for a spin, and we had a blast! I feel the ground clearance and dirt roads would be too much for the small wheels of the Robbin on that last trip, but I have had a great deal of fun on pavement in other times, so we shall see...

[RobinM1]

The Robin M1 has it's own patents just like ford, toyota, chevy and the rest of the Vehichles in the World. ( Ford cant sue toyota cause ford has an engine with pistons just like toyota ) There all made similiar but different.

We are pretty sure that the Robin and the Segway executives are fully aware of one another. They may of had lunch today together for all we know.

[Tritium]

The Robin M1 has it's own patents just like ford, toyota, chevy and the rest of the Vehichles in the World. ( Ford cant sue toyota cause ford has an engine with pistons just like toyota ) There all made similiar but different.

We are pretty sure that the Robin and the Segway executives are fully aware of one another. They may of had lunch today together for all we know.

Yeah, and I'm sure Steve Jobs had dinner with Bill Gates... :p
Seriously though, please point out some of the M1's patents.

[RobinM1]

We know nothing about the Robins patents or the segways for that matter, but I wil l say this much. The Robins are growing world wide and just havent caught on in the usa yet.

If Segway were to come up with a case it would only help the Robin m1 to become more familiar in the usa, increasing public awareness and striking curiosity, so for the the people that want the Robin to go away, this is not the tactic, as a big run in the Media would surely help the Robins, not just in the usa, but worldwide.

It's obvious there are Segway lovers who dont want the Robin around. It's obvious cause the only thing they can come up with against the robin is bogus infringement rights and to talk about patents and whos belongs to who, for which we have already addressed this issure several times in this thread.

If the Robins were doing something they werent supposed to, were pretty sure it would of been brought to light by now.

Feel free to try one and leave an honest review here if you like.

[Tritium]

We know nothing about the Robins patents or the segways for that matter, but I wil l say this much. The Robins are growing world wide and just havent caught on in the usa yet.

If Segway were to come up with a case it would only help the Robin m1 to become more familiar in the usa, increasing public awareness and striking curiosity, so for the the people that want the Robin to go away, this is not the tactic, as a big run in the Media would surely help the Robins, not just in the usa, but worldwide.

It's obvious there are Segway lovers who dont want the Robin around. It's obvious cause the only thing they can come up with against the robin is bogus infringement rights and to talk about patents and whos belongs to who, for which we have already addressed this issure several times in this thread.

If the Robins were doing something they werent supposed to, were pretty sure it would of been brought to light by now.

Feel free to try one and leave an honest review here if you like.

How's about you stop accusing us of coming up with "bogus infringement rights" and start giving some good points.


Yeah, if Segway were to sue the Robin, it may make it popular, but it would be out of business because 99% of the time I'd bet Segway would win.

You said "we know nothing about the robins patents"!
Wait, WHAT? You sell this device yet you don't even know the patents?

How's this, you send me a Robin M1 to honestly review and if I like it, I'll buy it for full MSRP, if not, I'll send it back and pay all shipping costs.

Otherwise, without someone having a chance to use one, there's no way to know how it is.

[Cybercat]

Honestly, what we're hearing here reminds me of Barney Frank's great quote at a town hall, when a woman in the audience compared Obama to Hitler: "Ma'am, trying to have a conversation with you would be like arguing with a dining room table: I have no interest in doing it."

[RobinM1]

We werent directing that statement directly at you, your one of the few who have taken up for us a bit and pointed out some good points. It's just it seems to be becoming the main focus of this thread, please read some of the other threads to understand our defense.

An by us not knowing about patents shows absolutely nothing. There are lots of people ( and corporations ) who sell stuff that don't concern themselves with patents, we arent lawyers, were just average joes putting a name out there is all.

Sorry cannot send a free robin to you. Nice try tho.:) We have outlined a lot of advantages of the Robin over the Segway in this thread. Both have there place in the market. The biggest difference in the Robin and segay is obviously the size difference, so the robin would be much better suited under certain circumstances than the Segway, and vice versa.

One thing we have not done is bash the Segway like several other posters have bashed the robin

[Tritium]

We werent directing that statement directly at you, your one of the few who have taken up for us a bit and pointed out some good points. It's just it seems to be becoming the main focus of this thread, please read some of the other threads to understand our defense.

An by us not knowing about patents shows absolutely nothing. There are lots of people ( and corporations ) who sell stuff that don't concern themselves with patents, we arent lawyers, were just average joes putting a name out there is all.

Sorry cannot send a free robin to you. Nice try tho.:) We have outlined a lot of advantages of the Robin over the Segway in this thread. Both have there place in the market. The biggest difference in the Robin and segay is obviously the size difference, so the robin would be much better suited under certain circumstances than the Segway, and vice versa.

One thing we have not done is bash the Segway like several other posters have done.
I have nothing against the Robin if its all legitimate.
I wouldn't mind trying one out but the only way I'd ever even think about getting one is if there's either a discount or the ability to return it if I don't like it.

I love my segways and really never try anything else but this gives me a good chance to.


To other posters:

Actually the Robin is available in the US.

[RobinM1]

Yes the robin is available in the usa. Were not going to post there link here, but you are free to google ( robstep usa ) It has also come to our attention that the Robin has 23 patents designed and manufactured by robstep, not sure what those patents are exactly but Im positive a few of them are propietary.

[RobinM1]

For anyone interested in the patents of the Robins, If you would like to look up the patent information on the Robin m1 please go to google and type in ( robin m1 patents ) I belive it's the third result down that shows the robins patents and there compliance, it's in pdf format and a little grainy and hard to see but its there. The link is from tradekey.

The robin have many patents and carries the CE, FCC, ROHS, and ISO9001 approvals as well.

[Tritium]

PM sent with payment info, when I get the robin I'll post a review, etc.

[JohnG]

RobinM1, I'd like to take you seriously, but you're beginning to sound more and more like a troll. First you say the RobinM1 has lots of its own patents, then you say, "We know nothing about the Robins patents." Huh?

Patents are public record. You can look up the dozens of Kamen (Segway) patents in the USPTO patent database. They are very specific about what they are patenting, and while none of us are patent attorneys here, even a cursory reading of those patents shows that a machine that self-balances like the M1 is likely violating a number of them (unless it doesn't do things like fault tolerance and detection, meaning it just stops working properly when it hits a bump!).

I could care less whether the Robin is "around" or not. I do care when other companies from other countries import products that violate U.S. laws looking to make a quick buck. I actually value other people's intellectual property, and that's why patent law was invented. China is, sadly, notorious for violating such property rights.

John

[JohnG]

There are no patents in the document you claim has patents in it. All it has is the marketing speak, "All products produced by Robstep Robot have gained many patents and also carry... approvals."

Saying you "have many patents" isn't the same as being able to look up the patent numbers.

[KSagal]

PM sent with payment info, when I get the robin I'll post a review, etc.

You sent money to this person? Good for you. PT Barnum had some thoughts that I recall matched that plan.;)

Let us know how it works out.

[RobinM1]

Your speaking on things which you presume to be true, not facts.

Unless your a patent expert and familar with patents, most people who sell things have no idea the patent numbers on a product for sale.

I can almost guarantee most segway dealers cannot tell you the patents of a segway specifically, and as stated before if that is your only gripe with the robin then there is no grip at all, as the Robins have there own patents and are sold in over 40 countries worldwide.

[goldwing_midland_tx]

It is mentioned that the Robin has several advantages over the Segway. I realize one is the lighter weight. What would be the others?

Also, please explain why someone would want to control it via a smartphone/tablet when all one has to do is lean forward/backwards and turn using the lean steer now.

Just curious,
Thanks

[RobinM1]

Lets do a quick compare a few features of the robin to a segway i2. The Robin is only 40lbs, the i2 is around 105lbs, the max speed on a i2 it is about 15 mph, with the robin it's only about 10 mph, the robins handlebars have adjustable height where as the i2 does not. The robins can be controlled by a smart phone.

The ability to remote control the robin has many advantages, as the robin does come with optional equipment for golfing and shopping.

Go play golf with a robin and the remote control of the robin would be very appreciated. It's an option that you have. You could grocery shop without pushing a buggy perhaps, use the robin to follow you around and place your items in the saddlebags.

Walk away from your robin in your travels, and pull out your phone to make it come to you instead of you coming to it.

[Tritium]

It is mentioned that the Robin has several advantages over the Segway. I realize one is the lighter weight. What would be the others?

Also, please explain why someone would want to control it via a smartphone/tablet when all one has to do is lean forward/backwards and turn using the lean steer now.

Just curious,
Thanks

GW, the feature could be for the elderly to move their PT to an area after they dismount or for having fun.

[Tritium]

Lets do a quick compare a few features of the robin to a segway i2. The Robin is only 40lbs, the i2 is around 105lbs, the max speed on a i2 it is about 15 mph, with the robin it's only about 10 mph, the robins handlebars have adjustable height where as the i2 does not. The robins can be controlled by a smart phone.

The ability to remote control the robin has many advantages, as the robin does come with optional equipment for golfing and shopping.

Go play golf with a robin and the remote control of the robin would be very appreciated. It's an option that you have. You could grocery shop without pushing a buggy perhaps, use the robin to follow you around and place your items in the saddlebags.

Walk away from your robin in your travels, and pull out your phone to make it come to you instead of you coming to it.
Now most of that is BS.
The i2 PT has a top speed of 12.5MPH and has an option for golf bag carrier too!
ALSO, the leansteer column height IS adjustable.

I don't know where you're getting your "facts" from but they're FALSE!

[RobinM1]

We just did a google search is all, if some of the info is wrong we do apolojise as we are not that familiar with the Segway.

[KSagal]

Your speaking on things which you presume to be true, not facts.

Unless your a patent expert and familar with patents, most people who sell things have no idea the patent numbers on a product for sale.

I can almost guarantee most segway dealers cannot tell you the patents of a segway specifically, and as stated before if that is your only gripe with the robin then there is no grip at all, as the Robins have there own patents and are sold in over 40 countries worldwide.

I will quote Spock on this one. "If I drop a hammer on a positive gravity planet, I do not need to see it hit the ground to know it fell".

Just because something is done somewhere does not mean it is okay to do it here. Rules for commerce are different in different countries, and compliance and enforcement are different as well.

One does not need to know an absolute answer to many questions, to know that some things are just wrong. I cannot prove what the planet mars is made from, but I am pretty confident that it is not made from cheddar cheese. I don't really care if people in 40 other countries think it is made of cheese, I know it is not.

[KSagal]

Lets do a quick compare a few features of the robin to a segway i2. The Robin is only 40lbs, the i2 is around 105lbs, the max speed on a i2 it is about 15 mph, with the robin it's only about 10 mph, the robins handlebars have adjustable height where as the i2 does not. The robins can be controlled by a smart phone.

The ability to remote control the robin has many advantages, as the robin does come with optional equipment for golfing and shopping.

Go play golf with a robin and the remote control of the robin would be very appreciated. It's an option that you have. You could grocery shop without pushing a buggy perhaps, use the robin to follow you around and place your items in the saddlebags.

Walk away from your robin in your travels, and pull out your phone to make it come to you instead of you coming to it.

I don't know about the remote travel, but since the segway requires communication with the info key to work, I would have imagined that an ap on the smart phone would take the same responsibilities.

The ability to move the machine via smart phone without being on it does seem interesting.

If that is really the case, I can see that you could use your smart phone to record your route (like a GPS trace) so you can find your way back to your hotel in an odd city, or to take you home after you learn to sleep standing up.:D

[goldwing_midland_tx]

GW, the feature could be for the elderly to move their PT to an area after they dismount or for having fun.

That is a good idea. I was not thinking along those lines.

Thank you

[KSagal]

We just did a google search is all, if some of the info is wrong we do apolojise as we are not that familiar with the Segway.

That's okay. I will not speak for others, but I have come to know that you do not care much for the truth, and surely do not think it matters if you employ it in your arguments. It is clear that you are making much of this up as you go along, and using your own definitions of words and phrases to suit your argument, regardless of the facts.

To each their own. I could not live like that, but I do not need to. If you are happy with what you say, and how you choose to say it, good for you.

Much of this explains why there was friction from many here to your original several posts and sales pitches. Some of us made the mistake of trying to explain how things really work to you, or point out clear flaws in your logic or errors of fact in the things you say.

Now that you have posted several times. Anyone reading what you are writing will know that you have a singular mission, and that is to say anything at all, accurate or not, to sell your machine. We need no longer try to explain the truth to you, as you have already made it clear you do not care, you just want to siphon off the less aware among us.

The sad part is that several of us are actually curious about your product, and are not at all opposed to it. I personally hope it is a reasonable product. I am still, as stated before, saddened by the presentation you seem to feel is necessary to sell it and the idea of it.

So be it. Any other facts that you care to tell us about the segway? I like the non adjustable handlebar height. That one must have taken a long time to research. I also enjoyed where you earlier stated that the Robbin litterally ran circles around the segway. A segway can turn in place, and you admitted goes faster. So it seems less than likely that a Robbin could outmaneuver a machine that can go faster, and turns just as sharp. (Although the Robbin is smaller, so I suspect it may fit in places that a segway cannot. It was not in that video, but if I look to put some reasonable truth to what you said, I would go there.)

My original challenge remains. Lets go wheel to wheel, face to face.

I will tell the truth as to the results of the meeting. You are welcome to do what you do also.

[Tritium]

Chuga chuga chuga CHEGWAY!

[KSagal]

That is a good idea. I was not thinking along those lines.

Thank you

The PUMA from Segway could be controlled via an AP from a smartphone, I believe. I was told it basically did as I explained previously, took the function of the info key. Also, that it could record stats and travel logs and info. I am afraid I did not exactly interact with that particular device, so I am just speaking of what I was told 3rd hand (or 2nd hand) but I cannot confirm what I was told is related accurately via personal knowledge.

[RobinM1]

Your still making wild accusations about the robins for which you haven't a clue about. Your voicing your opinion not facts about the robin. Your saying what you think not know.

Hard to pour water in a glass when it's full. You make some good points but your very argumentative an presumptions an i see no reason for you to assume you know something when you don't.

Remember everybody here sees your negativity. It's like a candle in the dark

[Tritium]

Your still making wild accusations about the robins for which you haven't a clue about. Your voicing your opinion not facts about the robin. Your saying what you think not know.

Hard to pour water in a glass when it's full. You make some good points but your very argumentative an presumptions an i see no reason for you to assume you know something when you don't.

Remember everybody here sees your negativity. It's like a candle in the dark

It's not water that it is full of...
Remember too, if that candle only outputs a lumen or two, you can only see it for 100 feet or so.
If you REALLY want to stand out, mod that candle with an XML-2 and an 18650 in the wax.
Say hello to my little 1000 lumen candle!


The fact of the matter is, we all are interested someway in the M1, but your belligerentness (I made that word up) is what turns so many off.

[goldwing_midland_tx]

You make some good points but your very argumentative an presumptions an i see no reason for you to assume you know something when you don't.


To borrow a phrase, that is like the pot calling the kettle black. You have stated numerous times something as fact only to come back saying you don't really know or it was something you have heard.

[Bob.Kerns]

The Robin M1 has it's own patents just like ford, toyota, chevy and the rest of the Vehichles in the World. ( Ford cant sue toyota cause ford has an engine with pistons just like toyota ) There all made similiar but different.

We are pretty sure that the Robin and the Segway executives are fully aware of one another. They may of had lunch today together for all we know.

Ford most definitely CAN sue Toyota. And both have been sued over infringement. And lost.

[Tritium]

Ford most definitely CAN sue Toyota. And both have been sued over infringement. And lost.

Brings it back to:

"Anyone can sue anybody"

[JohnG]

Again, Robin M1 is apparently just a troll, looking to stir up some business for their rip-off product. They are not here to engage in a real or legitimate discussion, and apparently have little knowledge of the product they are selling other than the usual marketing-droid speak (which I should know, given I worked in Segway marketing for 4 years!).

Robin M1, it's been a pleasure having you here in the Segway enthusiast's community. If you'd like to continue to be a member in good standing with our community, please drop me a note in private.

John

[KSagal]

Your still making wild accusations about the robins for which you haven't a clue about. Your voicing your opinion not facts about the robin. Your saying what you think not know.

Hard to pour water in a glass when it's full. You make some good points but your very argumentative an presumptions an i see no reason for you to assume you know something when you don't.

Remember everybody here sees your negativity. It's like a candle in the dark

I presume this was aimed at me, and if I actually made any wild accusations, or even just mildly inaccurate ones, I would love to be corrected. Be specific. I really do want the truth to ring through the din.

I have mostly commented about the person, because I do not know the machine. The person posting has proven themselves by their own words. People may agree with my assessment or not, as is their right.

RobinM1, if you are still out there, tell me where I have said anything as fact that I was wrong about. (Especially about your machine)

[Bob.Kerns]

Your speaking on things which you presume to be true, not facts.

Unless your a patent expert and familar with patents, most people who sell things have no idea the patent numbers on a product for sale.

I can almost guarantee most segway dealers cannot tell you the patents of a segway specifically, and as stated before if that is your only gripe with the robin then there is no grip at all, as the Robins have there own patents and are sold in over 40 countries worldwide.

The Segway patent numbers are published, starting on page 140 of the reference manual, which you can download here: http://www.segway.com/support/manuals-guides.php

Patents are something I *have* studied, in school. My professor was Woodie Flowers -- the same Woodie Flowers who works with Dean Kamen on the FIRST Robotics competition. I have been involved in both patent filings, and in contesting patents, from the technical side.

That does NOT make me an expert, as I've tried to make clear. I am, however, not just speaking through my hat.

On the question of whether Robin infringes on Segways patents, it is 100%, completely irrelevant whether Robin has patents, too.

Since the Segway product is older than any Robin patents, the Segway cannot be infringing on them. Segway would have what is called "prior art", and if there's a conflict, Robin's patents would be invalid.

Segway COULD run afoul of Robin's patents with new products that incorporate new features. That could create the potential for cross-licensing, for example, to your mutual benefit.

But that's NOT what is being discussed here!

Lots of companies DO start making new products without regard to patents, too. And then they lose their businesses when sued.

[PeteInLongBeach]

My original challenge remains. Lets go wheel to wheel, face to face.

I will tell the truth as to the results of the meeting. You are welcome to do what you do also.

I would love to see a comparison test like this. Both machines, over a variety of terrain, conditions, and environments.

But, regardless of the outcome, I would not be buying any product from an entity who has displayed the kind of tempermental, ignorant, and unprofessional behavior seen in this topic. The poor grammar, spelling, and punctuation border on illiterate. And the gaudy / splashy / sensationalistic website inspires NO confidence that this is a professional hi-tech company. I am also unlikely to buy high-priced devices like this unless I can test them for myself for suitability, and this is apparently not possible.

[Bob.Kerns]

Brings it back to:

"Anyone can sue anybody"

But not always successfully. The infringement suits against Toyota and Ford were settled in favor of the plaintiff.

For that matter, I used to regularly get phone calls, wondering if I was the Robert Kearns who invented the intermittent windshield wiper.

He eventually won HIS patent infringement suits against Ford and Chrysler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns

[Tritium]

Well apparently they don't want my business.
They just cancelled the payment req.

[jgbackes]

Found this list for future reference:

Patent Information The Segway PT is covered by US and foreign patents, including one or more of the following:

US Patent numbers (issued):
5,701,965; 5,791,425; 5,794,730; 5,971,091; 5,975,225; 6,223,104; 6,288,505; 6,302,230; 6,332,103; 6,357,544; 6,367,817; 6,405,816; 6,408,240; 6,415,879; 6,435,535; 6,443,250; 6,538,411; 6,543,564; 6,553,271; 6,561,294; 6,571,892; 6,575,539; 6,581,714; 6,598,941; 6,651,763; 6,651,766; 6,715,845; 6,779,621; 6,789,640; 6,796,396; 6,799,649; 6,815,929; 6,827,163; D489,027; D489,029; D489,300; D493,127; D493,128; D493,129; D493,392; D493,749; 6,965,206; 6,929,080; 7,017,686; 6,874,591; 6,920,947; 6,866,107; 7,023,330; 6,868,931; 7,000,933.

US Patent Pending (published application serial numbers):
20040011573; 20040050611; 20040055795; 20040055796; 20040069543; 20040183272; 20050017733; 20050121866; 20050236215.

Foreign Patent numbers (issued):
AU: 705704; 726250; 726253; 727183; 728453; 729781; 738013. CA: 2211738. KR: 346992; 351082; 363809. MX: 205144. NZ: 282114; 330431. RU: 2153868. TW: 129673; 130073; 154350; 157146; 159151; 171,217.

Foreign Patent Pending (published application serial number):
AT: 95911624.5. AU: 62669/99; 21703/00; 37202/00; 37430/00; 37450/ 00; 33980/00; 54557/00; 53137/00; 80362/00. BE: 95911624.5. CA: 2,211,738; 2,346,442; 2,337,130; 2,363,737; 2,367,501; 2,375,313; 2,366,076; 2,373,275; 2,375,645; 2,382,360; 2,393,418; 2,401,488; 2,431,070. CH: 95911624.5. CN: 95197546.3; 00812269.5; 95197546.3. DE: 95911624.5; 00916035.9. DK: 95911624.5. ES: 95911624.5. EP: 1123235; 1159686; 1161214; 1161215; 1161216; 1180996; 1181187; 1183163; 1208032; 1237779; 1259415; 1298041; 1324911. FI: 973197. FR: 95911624.5; 00916035.9. GB: 95911624.5; 00916035.9. GR: 95911624.5. HK: 02101085.2; 02106106.6; 02106105.7; 03105015.7; 02106266.2; 02108322.0. ID: W00200102875; W00200102136; W00200102823; W00200200009; W00200200024; W00200200451; W00200201309. IE: 95911624.5; IL: 155,390. IN: IN/PCT/02/00280/CHE. IT: 95911624.5. JP: 8- 523486; 2000-577062; 2001-508659; 2000-602941; 2000-604799; 2000-621191; 2000-604801; 2001-501161; 2001-501493; 2001- 519543; 2001-543388; 2001-563370; 2003-35305. KR: 10-2001- 7016896; 10-2001-7011189; 10-2001-7015260; 10-2001-7015490; 10-2001-7015564; 10-2002-7002673; 10-2002-7007338. MC: 95911624.5. MX: 2001/004018; PA/a/2001/012685; PA/a/2001/ 008933; PA/a/2001/009342; PA/a/2001/012232; PA/a/2001/009374; PA/a/2000/12498; PA/a/2001/012557; PA/a/2002/002217; PA/a/ 2002/005801; 000162. MY: PI20000540; PI20001210; PI200010118; PI20001458; PI20002479; PI20002502; PI 200014753. NL: 95911624.5. NO: P973,153; 20011809. NZ: 513868; 517412; 525279. RU: 2000114547; 2002108569. SE: 95911624.5. SG: 200201245-8; 200203390-0. TW: 88117468; 89,106,673; 89,110,752. WO: 00/23315; 00/52588; 00/54719; 00/54720; 00/ 54721; 00/61426; 00/73101; 00/74623; 00/75001; 01/02920; 01/ 064502; /01/15962; 01/42077; 02/030730; 02/068219; 2003/103559; 03/105967; 2003/106250; 2004/007233; 2004/007264; 2004/075804; 2004/078603; 2005/009828.

Additional US and foreign patent applications are pending. Segway Inc. manufactures and sells Segway PTs under a license from DEKA Products Limited Partnership.

[Tritium]

Found this list for future reference:

Patent Information The Segway PT is covered by US and foreign patents, including one or more of the following:

US Patent numbers (issued):
5,701,965; 5,791,425; 5,794,730; 5,971,091; 5,975,225; 6,223,104; 6,288,505; 6,302,230; 6,332,103; 6,357,544; 6,367,817; 6,405,816; 6,408,240; 6,415,879; 6,435,535; 6,443,250; 6,538,411; 6,543,564; 6,553,271; 6,561,294; 6,571,892; 6,575,539; 6,581,714; 6,598,941; 6,651,763; 6,651,766; 6,715,845; 6,779,621; 6,789,640; 6,796,396; 6,799,649; 6,815,929; 6,827,163; D489,027; D489,029; D489,300; D493,127; D493,128; D493,129; D493,392; D493,749; 6,965,206; 6,929,080; 7,017,686; 6,874,591; 6,920,947; 6,866,107; 7,023,330; 6,868,931; 7,000,933.

US Patent Pending (published application serial numbers):
20040011573; 20040050611; 20040055795; 20040055796; 20040069543; 20040183272; 20050017733; 20050121866; 20050236215.

Foreign Patent numbers (issued):
AU: 705704; 726250; 726253; 727183; 728453; 729781; 738013. CA: 2211738. KR: 346992; 351082; 363809. MX: 205144. NZ: 282114; 330431. RU: 2153868. TW: 129673; 130073; 154350; 157146; 159151; 171,217.

Foreign Patent Pending (published application serial number):
AT: 95911624.5. AU: 62669/99; 21703/00; 37202/00; 37430/00; 37450/ 00; 33980/00; 54557/00; 53137/00; 80362/00. BE: 95911624.5. CA: 2,211,738; 2,346,442; 2,337,130; 2,363,737; 2,367,501; 2,375,313; 2,366,076; 2,373,275; 2,375,645; 2,382,360; 2,393,418; 2,401,488; 2,431,070. CH: 95911624.5. CN: 95197546.3; 00812269.5; 95197546.3. DE: 95911624.5; 00916035.9. DK: 95911624.5. ES: 95911624.5. EP: 1123235; 1159686; 1161214; 1161215; 1161216; 1180996; 1181187; 1183163; 1208032; 1237779; 1259415; 1298041; 1324911. FI: 973197. FR: 95911624.5; 00916035.9. GB: 95911624.5; 00916035.9. GR: 95911624.5. HK: 02101085.2; 02106106.6; 02106105.7; 03105015.7; 02106266.2; 02108322.0. ID: W00200102875; W00200102136; W00200102823; W00200200009; W00200200024; W00200200451; W00200201309. IE: 95911624.5; IL: 155,390. IN: IN/PCT/02/00280/CHE. IT: 95911624.5. JP: 8- 523486; 2000-577062; 2001-508659; 2000-602941; 2000-604799; 2000-621191; 2000-604801; 2001-501161; 2001-501493; 2001- 519543; 2001-543388; 2001-563370; 2003-35305. KR: 10-2001- 7016896; 10-2001-7011189; 10-2001-7015260; 10-2001-7015490; 10-2001-7015564; 10-2002-7002673; 10-2002-7007338. MC: 95911624.5. MX: 2001/004018; PA/a/2001/012685; PA/a/2001/ 008933; PA/a/2001/009342; PA/a/2001/012232; PA/a/2001/009374; PA/a/2000/12498; PA/a/2001/012557; PA/a/2002/002217; PA/a/ 2002/005801; 000162. MY: PI20000540; PI20001210; PI200010118; PI20001458; PI20002479; PI20002502; PI 200014753. NL: 95911624.5. NO: P973,153; 20011809. NZ: 513868; 517412; 525279. RU: 2000114547; 2002108569. SE: 95911624.5. SG: 200201245-8; 200203390-0. TW: 88117468; 89,106,673; 89,110,752. WO: 00/23315; 00/52588; 00/54719; 00/54720; 00/ 54721; 00/61426; 00/73101; 00/74623; 00/75001; 01/02920; 01/ 064502; /01/15962; 01/42077; 02/030730; 02/068219; 2003/103559; 03/105967; 2003/106250; 2004/007233; 2004/007264; 2004/075804; 2004/078603; 2005/009828.

Additional US and foreign patent applications are pending. Segway Inc. manufactures and sells Segway PTs under a license from DEKA Products Limited Partnership.
Hmm, I can't look them all up but I'm sure the Robin is using some of that patented technology.

[PaulDV]

Robstep appear to have quite a number of patents relating to self-balancing vehicles:
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?compact=false&ST=advanced&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&PA=Robstep

Many of these appear to relate to the various components that make up their machines, so it is entirely possible that they have not used any Segway-patented technology in their machines.

[Tritium]

Robstep appear to have quite a number of patents relating to self-balancing vehicles:
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?compact=false&ST=advanced&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&PA=Robstep

Many of these appear to relate to the various components that make up their machines, so it is entirely possible that they have not used any Segway-patented technology in their machines.

Yeah apparently they even have their own version of a lean steer.
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=8&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20110727&CC=CN&NR=201907617U&KC=U
Now that I know that it isn't stealing from Segway, I will buy one.
I need a PT to go traveling so this should work!

[Bob.Kerns]

Yeah apparently they even have their own version of a lean steer.
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=8&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20110727&CC=CN&NR=201907617U&KC=U
Now that I know that it isn't stealing from Segway, I will buy one.
I need a PT to go traveling so this should work!

I can't tell if you've got your tongue in cheek here...

In case you don't, or because it's not been clear to others:

The fact that they have a patent on some aspect of a device does NOT mean it's not infringing another patent.

Let's take a hypothetical example -- two competing companies working on the same problem. Let's say it's lean-steer. But this is hypothetical -- they're working on it at the same time.

Company A invents and files a patent for a technique to reliably sense the leansteer position.

Company B invents and files a patent for a technique for providing optimum tactile feedback to the user.

Now company A works on the tactile feedback problem, and company B works on the sensing problem.

They both work for years, and come up with similar solutions to these two particular problems. Their patents issue, and they ship their products.

Do they infringe each other's patents? Certainly! It's up to them how they handle it, but if they can't negotiate it, they can both sue each other.

Having a patent NEVER implies that a product doesn't infringe other patents.

[jgbackes]

These appear to be the iBot Wheelchair Patents
US 5701965 A Human transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US5701965
US 5791425 A Control loop for transportation vehicles http://www.google.com/patents/US5791425
US 5794730 A Indication system for vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US5794730
US 5971091 A Transportation vehicles and methods http://www.google.com/patents/US5971091
US 5975225 A Transportation vehicles with stability enhancement using CG modification http://www.google.com/patents/US5975225
US 6223104 B1 Fault tolerant architecture for a personal vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US6223104
US 6405816 B1 Mechanical improvements to a personal vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US6405816
US 6415879 B2 Control inputs for a balancing personal vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US6415879
US 6443250 B1 Control of a balancing personal vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US6443250
US 6553271 B1 System and method for control scheduling http://www.google.com/patents/US6553271
US 6571892 B2 Control system and method http://www.google.com/patents/US6571892
US 6575539 B2 Wheel attachment http://www.google.com/patents/US6575539
US 6715845 B2 Mechanical improvements to a personal vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US6715845
US 6799649 B2 Control of a balancing personal vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US6799649
US 7017686 B2 Hybrid human/electric powered vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US7017686
US 6874591 B2 Speed limiting for a balancing transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US6874591
Patent Pending
US 20040183272 A1 Mechanical improvements to a personal vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US20040183272

These appear to be the Segway PT/HT Patents
US 6288505 B1 Motor amplifier and control for a personal transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US6288505
US 6302230 B1 Personal mobility vehicles and methods http://www.google.com/patents/US6302230
US 6332103 B1 Apparatus and method for a pitch state estimator for a personal vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US6332103
US 6357544 B1 Balancing vehicle with camber and toe-in http://www.google.com/patents/US6357544
US 6367817 B1 Personal mobility vehicles and methods http://www.google.com/patents/US6367817
US 6408240 B1 Traction control for a personal transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US6408240
US 6435535 B1 Trailer for balancing vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US6435535
US 6538411 B1 Deceleration control of a personal transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US6538411
US 6543564 B1 Balancing personal vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US6543564
US 6561294 B1 Balancing vehicle with passive pivotable support http://www.google.com/patents/US6561294
US 6581714 B1 Steering control of a personal transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US6581714
US 6651763 B1 Transporter oscillating alarm http://www.google.com/patents/US6651763
US 6651766 B2 Personal mobility vehicles and methods http://www.google.com/patents/US6651766
US 6779621 B2 Riderless stabilization of a balancing transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US6779621
US 6789640 B1 Yaw control for a personal transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US6789640
US 6796396 B2 Personal transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US6796396
US 6827163 B2 Non-linear control of a balancing vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US6827163
US D551722 S1 Human transporter http://www.google.com/patents/USD551722
US D489029 S1 Personal transporter fender http://www.google.com/patents/USD489029
US D489300 S1 Personal transporter fender http://www.google.com/patents/USD489300
US D493127 S1 Instruments and controls on a personal transporter http://www.google.com/patents/USD493127
US D493128 S1 Personal transporter http://www.google.com/patents/USD493128
US D493129 S1 Yaw control http://www.google.com/patents/USD493129
US D493392 S1 Tapered support column with knuckle http://www.google.com/patents/USD493392
US 6965206 B2 Method and system for fail-safe motor operation http://www.google.com/patents/US6965206
US 6929080 B2 Balancing personal vehicle http://www.google.com/patents/US6929080
US 6920947 B2 Exercise mode for a personal transporter device http://www.google.com/patents/US6920947
US 6866107 B2 Method and device for battery load sharing http://www.google.com/patents/US6866107
US 7023330 B2 Transporter oscillating alarm http://www.google.com/patents/US7023330
US 6868931 B2 Speed limiting for a balancing transporter accounting for variations in system capability http://www.google.com/patents/US6868931
US 7000933 B2 Method for attaching a carrier to a balancing transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US7000933
Patent Pending
US 20040011573 A1 Guided control of a transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US20040011573
US 20040050611 A1 Transporter storage and conveyance http://www.google.com/patents/US20040050611
US 20040055795 A1 Control of a transporter based on attitude http://www.google.com/patents/US20040055795
US 20040055796 A1 Motion control of a transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US20040055796
US 20040069543 A1 Motion control of a transporter http://www.google.com/patents/US20040069543
US 20050017733 A1 Model-based fault detection in a motor drive http://www.google.com/patents/US20050017733
US 20050121866 A1 Control of a personal transporter based on user position http://www.google.com/patents/US20050121866
US 20050236215 A1 Dynamically stable transporter controlled by lean http://www.google.com/patents/US20050236215

These appear to be General Patents
US 6598941 B2 Apparatus and method for attaching a wheel to an axle http://www.google.com/patents/US7000933
US 6815929 B1 System and method for battery isolation in a charging system http://www.google.com/patents/US7000934

[JohnG]

China isn't known for helping foreigners protect their intellectual property within the country. Their patent database is full of patents that have been previously filed elsewhere in the world. It's called "prior art" and it invalidates most patents once a lawsuit (or grievance) is filed.

Clearly Segway's prior art pre-dates Robstep's patents (the one on self-balancing scooter was filed in 2010).

Perhaps aware that the self-balance patent would restrict their sales in other countries, Robstep in 2011 also filed a patent in China for a 3-wheeled scooter with a small "balance wheel" in-front.

[KSagal]

Much of the start up cost for the manufacturer of a new product is the R&D for that product itself. We all know that Segway spent tens of millions of dollars in the development, and presumably the patented technology they invented.

The whole point of a knock off is to avoid these costs. They see a product they want to copy, buy one and take it apart, then do the minimum needed to reproduce it, either in exact form, or similar form. They save themselves all that R&D money.

That is one of the reasons that knock-offs can be so much cheaper. Another is that they do not have the brand loyalty or responsibilities. If Segways were cheap and faulty, it would hurt the planet's perception of Segways. If Robins sell themselves as Segways or segway Alternatives, and they are cheap and faulty, people don't think that 'Real" Segways are good, and "Alternative" segways (robin) are bad, they just think 'those segway things' are a risk...

So, let someone else do the hard up front expensive work. Make a minimalist machine that may or may not deliver the goods, rake in the cash when you can, then scoot away when the problems become more work than the income.

We have seen this with the Q scooter, then Rad to go, then several other names for the same product.

Same here.

One of my earlier points was that I thought this was as much of a rip off of the Winglet as the segway. I do not know about the sales of the winglet, or even if they made it to production. I also do not know if the winglet had patent problems with the segway, and if that may be why they were not introduced to general sales. I offer this to say it may not be only Segway and it's intellectual property that are going to be a problem for Robin, but also Toyota.

The chinese have a horrible reputation for not respecting other people's intellectual property. It may not be deserved in all cases, but it is common enough to be a major factor in much of their dealings.

All this said, I am still curious to see if these things do what they are being touted to be able to do.

[Tritium]

Much of the start up cost for the manufacturer of a new product is the R&D for that product itself. We all know that Segway spent tens of millions of dollars in the development, and presumably the patented technology they invented.

The whole point of a knock off is to avoid these costs. They see a product they want to copy, buy one and take it apart, then do the minimum needed to reproduce it, either in exact form, or similar form. They save themselves all that R&D money.

That is one of the reasons that knock-offs can be so much cheaper. Another is that they do not have the brand loyalty or responsibilities. If Segways were cheap and faulty, it would hurt the planet's perception of Segways. If Robins sell themselves as Segways or segway Alternatives, and they are cheap and faulty, people don't think that 'Real" Segways are good, and "Alternative" segways (robin) are bad, they just think 'those segway things' are a risk...

So, let someone else do the hard up front expensive work. Make a minimalist machine that may or may not deliver the goods, rake in the cash when you can, then scoot away when the problems become more work than the income.

We have seen this with the Q scooter, then Rad to go, then several other names for the same product.

Same here.

One of my earlier points was that I thought this was as much of a rip off of the Winglet as the segway. I do not know about the sales of the winglet, or even if they made it to production. I also do not know if the winglet had patent problems with the segway, and if that may be why they were not introduced to general sales. I offer this to say it may not be only Segway and it's intellectual property that are going to be a problem for Robin, but also Toyota.

The chinese have a horrible reputation for not respecting other people's intellectual property. It may not be deserved in all cases, but it is common enough to be a major factor in much of their dealings.

All this said, I am still curious to see if these things do what they are being touted to be able to do.


Since we all don't want to support a company who steals from other companies, I suggest looking at the YouTube videos of the M1.
It is seen doing lots that the i2 model can do too.

[PeteInLongBeach]

Yeah apparently they even have their own version of a lean steer. Now that I know that it isn't stealing from Segway, I will buy one.
I need a PT to go traveling so this should work!

But, if they refused your payment to purchase, what does that mean? Where would you buy one?

That's really strange...

[Tritium]

But, if they refused your payment to purchase, what does that mean? Where would you buy one?

That's really strange...

Ebay has them all day long

[KSagal]

Ebay has them all day long

I went to ebay, and the robins in Hong Kong will ship anywhere for $100, yet the ones in Phoenix ship for $150. Interesting. Same machine price.

Also, some were for sale from Georgia, potentially the group we were speaking to on this forum.

All were the same price. Most all were using the word "Segway" in their title line or ad. None recognized it is a registered brand.

[KSagal]

China isn't known for helping foreigners protect their intellectual property within the country. Their patent database is full of patents that have been previously filed elsewhere in the world. It's called "prior art" and it invalidates most patents once a lawsuit (or grievance) is filed.

Clearly Segway's prior art pre-dates Robstep's patents (the one on self-balancing scooter was filed in 2010).

Perhaps aware that the self-balance patent would restrict their sales in other countries, Robstep in 2011 also filed a patent in China for a 3-wheeled scooter with a small "balance wheel" in-front.

Interesting point about the 3rd wheel in front. You should look into the Stand N Ride scooter. I wonder if it is the same company?

They also use the term 'Segway Alternative' in several of their advertisements.

https://www.stand-n-ride-scooters.com/product_images/uploaded_images/homemain.png

[Tritium]

I went to ebay, and the robins in Hong Kong will ship anywhere for $100, yet the ones in Phoenix ship for $150. Interesting. Same machine price.

Also, some were for sale from Georgia, potentially the group we were speaking to on this forum.

All were the same price. Most all were using the word "Segway" in their title line or ad. None recognized it is a registered brand.

I believe a Seg dealer in Fl sells them too!
Probably HK Post with no signature from Hong Kong.

The wholesale price is around $2000, so I think $3000 is not too bad.
The technology on the Robin has many features I would want on my Segs like built in lighting, real reverse, built in parking stand, etc.
It wouldn't hurt to buy one and test it out since there will always be someone who wants to buy it off of you.
I mean, if you look past all the small flaws and stuff, the Robin really is a good little transporter, and one of the things that's selling me on it is the portability.
I just went up to glide and brought my i180 and i2, and getting them in the SUV and secured was a huge pain, even more so since I have a bad back and my wrist has something awry with it.
The only use I'd really want the Robin for is like going out to get the mail, taking travelling or going 1 mile down the road to pick up a burger or burrito, it would never fully replace any of my PTs for the fact that they have 3x the range and are better for multi-terrain use.

[goldwing_midland_tx]

The technology on the Robin has many features I would want on my Segs like real reverse

Just curious, what is real reverse, since one can lean back and the Segway goes backwards, or better yet, do a 180 and go forward.

[KSagal]

Tritium,

I was wondering what a 'real' reverse is also. I know I can really go in reverse on my segway as easily as anything else.

The only reason it does not fall over is because the wheels are smaller than the base, and there is so little clearance. That is hardly a feature. I have seen many people use a block of wood, or something similar as a parking stand. All you need to do is take a block of wood that 1 inch less than the distance from the bottom of the batteries to the road, and bolt it to the bottom of your segway. Be sure that the length of the wood is larger than the diameter of your tires. It will severely hamper the usefulness of your segway, but you will have a similar parking stand to the robin. (Paint it black so it looks factory original)

On the built in lighting, and the portability, I agree with you. Might not be as much fun as poking fun at you as I did above, but the truth is, I think these are real enough problems that could be addressed. I have lighting on my machine, and it is very good, but it needs to be charged and managed separately, so I would prefer to use a tiny bit of the mega batteries that we already have on board. My digital lights use very little power, relatively, but still have small batteries that need to be replaced or recharged. I would rather snag a few watts from the base batteries.

Portability is another problem. I like the segway size, for the most part. But over a hundred pounds is a problem.

I have seen some exoskeleton frames that significantly enhance the strength of the wearer. I guess I'll have to invest in one of those, to ease my lifting the segway into my car...

[Tritium]

Just curious, what is real reverse, since one can lean back and the Segway goes backwards, or better yet, do a 180 and go forward.

Reverse that won't kick you off.
Example: If the Segway PT is going at almost any rate of speed in reverse, it will start shaking, if continued warning from the PT is ignored, it will safety shutoff.

[Tritium]

Tritium,

I was wondering what a 'real' reverse is also. I know I can really go in reverse on my segway as easily as anything else.

The only reason it does not fall over is because the wheels are smaller than the base, and there is so little clearance. That is hardly a feature. I have seen many people use a block of wood, or something similar as a parking stand. All you need to do is take a block of wood that 1 inch less than the distance from the bottom of the batteries to the road, and bolt it to the bottom of your segway. Be sure that the length of the wood is larger than the diameter of your tires. It will severely hamper the usefulness of your segway, but you will have a similar parking stand to the robin. (Paint it black so it looks factory original)

On the built in lighting, and the portability, I agree with you. Might not be as much fun as poking fun at you as I did above, but the truth is, I think these are real enough problems that could be addressed. I have lighting on my machine, and it is very good, but it needs to be charged and managed separately, so I would prefer to use a tiny bit of the mega batteries that we already have on board. My digital lights use very little power, relatively, but still have small batteries that need to be replaced or recharged. I would rather snag a few watts from the base batteries.

Portability is another problem. I like the segway size, for the most part. But over a hundred pounds is a problem.

I have seen some exoskeleton frames that significantly enhance the strength of the wearer. I guess I'll have to invest in one of those, to ease my lifting the segway into my car...
Karl, I agree that I could have a secondary bolt on stand but I live in Arizona and here it's normal to see rocks up to 2-3" in diameter in the motorways and sidewalks so I can't sacrifice.
I don't agree with the "wheel smaller than base" part, I think it's because the unit actually allows free reversal, because otherwise you'd be on your *** in the 30* climb video.
I really think SegINC should've integrated an automated stand.

Yes I have a "Sky Ray King" and a Lux-RC "FL33" both of which require external mounts and need to be separately charged.
The Segway logo in the leansteer should be a place they put a light but instead they didn't.
There ARE aftermarket placard led lights but seriously Segway should have known.

50% of all riding I do is between 5PM and 5AM so lighting is a must.

[KSagal]

Karl, I agree that I could have a secondary bolt on stand but I live in Arizona and here it's normal to see rocks up to 2-3" in diameter in the motorways and sidewalks so I can't sacrifice.
I don't agree with the "wheel smaller than base" part, I think it's because the unit actually allows free reversal, because otherwise you'd be on your *** in the 30* climb video.
I really think SegINC should've integrated an automated stand.

Yes I have a "Sky Ray King" and a Lux-RC "FL33" both of which require external mounts and need to be separately charged.
The Segway logo in the leansteer should be a place they put a light but instead they didn't.
There ARE aftermarket placard led lights but seriously Segway should have known.

50% of all riding I do is between 5PM and 5AM so lighting is a must.

I am afraid you are clearly wrong on the tire size vs base. The base is in front of the 3 and 9 oclock on the tire. That is why you can lean it back. It extends more behind the tire than in front, which is why it is parked in the back position.

Any close look at the images will show you what I am speaking of.

A segway is purposely made so the most forward part, and the most aft part are the tires at 3 and 9 oclock. It allows for stair climbing, and curb drops. A slow curb drop is okay on a segway because of this, and is just not so on the robin. A slow curb drop of over a couple inches with a robin will put you on your face.

You say you want to buy one. When you do, you are welcome to bring this thread back to life, and affirm my statements. If you do not believe it now, that is okay.

I do not know what your term 'free reversal' means. If you mean it freewheels in reverse, that would mean you have no brakes on down hills. (Meaning that if you start up a hill, and decided not to continue, but do a slight lean back to back down the hill, you would freewheel and that would be quite dangerous)

Also, their documentation says it has regenerative brakes that gives power to the batteries, not unlike a segway. (Actually, pretty much any motor will act as a generator. IF you add electrical energy to most any motor, you will get mechanical energy. If you add mechanical energy to that same motor, you will get electrical energy.) Not all motors do this efficiently, but most all do it.

However, if there were conditions where the wheels freewheel, then this regenerative function would not work as well, and also binder brakes would need to be engaged somehow. I saw no indication of this in any of their documentation.

But we are debating the technology of a knock off of a knock off. (I still feel this is most accurately described as a knock off winglet) We do not know any of these details by first hand knowledge, but by inference and from documents from those who clearly have no problem telling lies about their own product and others.

I hope someone here that we do not suspect as being a troll does buy or gets access to one of these, and can do the side by side comparison. If I get a hold of one, I will do it, but I surely will not give them my money before I see one of these items myself. I cannot imagine giving them my money after either, but there are no absolutes in life, and of course, it will be pretty unlikely I would get access if I publish that I will not ever buy one. The motivation of those posting earlier seemed pretty clear as being on of sales over all, over fact, over truth, over decorum.

Lets all take a glide. Anywhere, any time. I still have that silly grin when on the segway...

[Tritium]

I am afraid you are clearly wrong on the tire size vs base. The base is in front of the 3 and 9 oclock on the tire. That is why you can lean it back. It extends more behind the tire than in front, which is why it is parked in the back position.

Any close look at the images will show you what I am speaking of.

A segway is purposely made so the most forward part, and the most aft part are the tires at 3 and 9 oclock. It allows for stair climbing, and curb drops. A slow curb drop is okay on a segway because of this, and is just not so on the robin. A slow curb drop of over a couple inches with a robin will put you on your face.

You say you want to buy one. When you do, you are welcome to bring this thread back to life, and affirm my statements. If you do not believe it now, that is okay.

I do not know what your term 'free reversal' means. If you mean it freewheels in reverse, that would mean you have no brakes on down hills. (Meaning that if you start up a hill, and decided not to continue, but do a slight lean back to back down the hill, you would freewheel and that would be quite dangerous)

Also, their documentation says it has regenerative brakes that gives power to the batteries, not unlike a segway. (Actually, pretty much any motor will act as a generator. IF you add electrical energy to most any motor, you will get mechanical energy. If you add mechanical energy to that same motor, you will get electrical energy.) Not all motors do this efficiently, but most all do it.

However, if there were conditions where the wheels freewheel, then this regenerative function would not work as well, and also binder brakes would need to be engaged somehow. I saw no indication of this in any of their documentation.

But we are debating the technology of a knock off of a knock off. (I still feel this is most accurately described as a knock off winglet) We do not know any of these details by first hand knowledge, but by inference and from documents from those who clearly have no problem telling lies about their own product and others.

I hope someone here that we do not suspect as being a troll does buy or gets access to one of these, and can do the side by side comparison. If I get a hold of one, I will do it, but I surely will not give them my money before I see one of these items myself. I cannot imagine giving them my money after either, but there are no absolutes in life, and of course, it will be pretty unlikely I would get access if I publish that I will not ever buy one. The motivation of those posting earlier seemed pretty clear as being on of sales over all, over fact, over truth, over decorum.

Lets all take a glide. Anywhere, any time. I still have that silly grin when on the segway...


Woah now, I'm no troll, I've been gliding since 03 and have no intention to provoke arguments or spread faulty information.

As seen in many videos, the Robin has jumped off pretty big curbs and is fine.
I never said the wheels were bigger than the unit!
I'm just saying, I think the Segway should be able to go in reverse a bit better than it currently does, like the Solowheel or Robin.
I understand the fact of this copying many patented things, however if the features on the Robin were on the Segways, I would never in my life think about buying an M1 but for $2000-$3000 it's like buying a set of batteries, it won't hurt the bank too much and it is always fun to try new items.

In the Phoenix ad for a Robin, it is said:
"
As a long time Segway rider, I enjoyed the technology, and freedom that comes with using a Segway. The problem I had was the size and weight. My P series is over 70 pounds, and my i2 is 105! Not exactly a one man job putting it in the car." So obviously some people have the same opinions.

I'm all for boycotting fakes but in this case, I can't help but really truly consider buying this M1, it's not a direct clone or fake of anything.

[KSagal]

Woah now, I'm no troll, I've been gliding since 03 and have no intention to provoke arguments or spread faulty information.

As seen in many videos, the Robin has jumped off pretty big curbs and is fine.
I never said the wheels were bigger than the unit!
I'm just saying, I think the Segway should be able to go in reverse a bit better than it currently does, like the Solowheel or Robin.
I understand the fact of this copying many patented things, however if the features on the Robin were on the Segways, I would never in my life think about buying an M1 but for $2000-$3000 it's like buying a set of batteries, it won't hurt the bank too much and it is always fun to try new items.

In the Phoenix ad for a Robin, it is said:
"
As a long time Segway rider, I enjoyed the technology, and freedom that comes with using a Segway. The problem I had was the size and weight. My P series is over 70 pounds, and my i2 is 105! Not exactly a one man job putting it in the car." So obviously some people have the same opinions.

I'm all for boycotting fakes but in this case, I can't help but really truly consider buying this M1, it's not a direct clone or fake of anything.

Woah right back at you:D. I was suggesting that you would be a good person to do the wheel to wheel comparison, as you are a segway user, not a troll like RobinM1. If I was unclear, I am sorry.

In post 121 you said that you did not feel the built in ability to park the machine leaning was because of wheel size. Or perhaps I was not understanding exactly what you were saying.

I have never experienced a problem in reverse on a segway, but we are all different. OF course, since a segway can spin in its own footprint, there really are not many needs to back up, and not far or fast, but again, we are all different.

I do recall at a pre-release introduction of the i2 that I was lucky enough to attend, I was using the i2 in front of Doug Field. It was in a parking structure, and I took it up the ramp to a higher level, and played around a bit. On my way back down that ramp, I met up with Doug, and he asked if I had tried a particular maneuver, which I had not. I had stopped on the ramp, and I backed up the ramp, and decided to back into a 3 point turn kind of thing, so I was backing up and turning and happened to go over a speed bump all at the same time. I then went forward, and completed the turn to continue up the ramp in forward, and on to that maneuver. Upon return, Doug did comment on the ease I seemed with the backing up, turning and dealing with multiple complex angles. He said that his team had much more problems with those types of movements.

I bring this up, because your comments are not uncommon regarding squirrelyness in reverse (see, I can make up words too). I just happen to be a back up savant. I make up for it by being inept at most every other thing.

Please do share a detailed report back to us if you do buy a Robin. I think we would all like to see something other than a sales pitch.

[Tritium]

Woah right back at you:D. I was suggesting that you would be a good person to do the wheel to wheel comparison, as you are a segway user, not a troll like RobinM1. If I was unclear, I am sorry.

In post 121 you said that you did not feel the built in ability to park the machine leaning was because of wheel size. Or perhaps I was not understanding exactly what you were saying.

I have never experienced a problem in reverse on a segway, but we are all different. OF course, since a segway can spin in its own footprint, there really are not many needs to back up, and not far or fast, but again, we are all different.

I do recall at a pre-release introduction of the i2 that I was lucky enough to attend, I was using the i2 in front of Doug Field. It was in a parking structure, and I took it up the ramp to a higher level, and played around a bit. On my way back down that ramp, I met up with Doug, and he asked if I had tried a particular maneuver, which I had not. I had stopped on the ramp, and I backed up the ramp, and decided to back into a 3 point turn kind of thing, so I was backing up and turning and happened to go over a speed bump all at the same time. I then went forward, and completed the turn to continue up the ramp in forward, and on to that maneuver. Upon return, Doug did comment on the ease I seemed with the backing up, turning and dealing with multiple complex angles. He said that his team had much more problems with those types of movements.

I bring this up, because your comments are not uncommon regarding squirrelyness in reverse (see, I can make up words too). I just happen to be a back up savant. I make up for it by being inept at most every other thing.

Please do share a detailed report back to us if you do buy a Robin. I think we would all like to see something other than a sales pitch.

Woah AGAIN!
Thank you for that, I was under the impression you thought I was trolling!

I'll have to look at 121 but I don't think I said that.

I have a lot of people and places I frequent with halls and places where it's pretty much impossible to turn around so backing up is my only choice, I was just hoping that Segway would improve the system so if it detected the reverse was unintentional, it would slow or stop the PT rather than shake and or turn off.

I contacted the seller in Phoenix to ask for a test ride, he responded literally 10 minutes later with a happy "Hi, yes thanks, thank you for your interest in the Robin" so if I like it I'll buy it and do a detailed review/report on it upon return home.
I will need a day to test it for accuracy and experience though.

I know I'll be one of the first in Az to have one and the first on the forum so it'll be interesting to see how they compare.

I will have my i2 speed limited to 10mph to have a fair race between them.


Each day I usually do 5 miles or more on my PT so it should give the robin a workout.

Worst that could happen is that it is a piece of #£@& and I'll buy a T3 to try next.

[Bob.Kerns]

Reverse that won't kick you off.
Example: If the Segway PT is going at almost any rate of speed in reverse, it will start shaking, if continued warning from the PT is ignored, it will safety shutoff.

I have to say, 5000 miles on my i2, and I've never experienced this. (I presume Karl and many others have even more).

I'm not saying it won't do this, but if after all this time, I've never experienced it -- is it an important limitation? Do I *want* to go backwards fast enough to trigger it?

No, for a few reasons. One is, it's just darned hard to see where you're going. And second, because the steering is backwards for proper balance when you're going in reverse. And third, because any situation narrow enough to justify not just turning around and going forward, is also narrow enough to back out of at a cautious speed.

I kind of doubt the Robin's reverse will be any more "real", but who knows. If nothing else comes of this, I hope Segway, Inc, looks at this, and sees market opportunities they've overlooked, and create a successful product of their own to sell into it.

Perhaps even licensing a few patents from Robin in the process.

[JohnG]

The technology on the Robin has many features I would want on my Segs like built in lighting, real reverse, built in parking stand, etc.


Not sure where you're seeing this, but I don't see anywhere that Robin has built-in lighting or a parking stand.

And the Segway limits your speed in reverse for a very good reason -- safety (just as your car won't do its top speed in reverse either). This is not unusual, this is called good engineering practice.

John

[Tritium]

Not sure where you're seeing this, but I don't see anywhere that Robin has built-in lighting or a parking stand.

And the Segway limits your speed in reverse for a very good reason -- safety (just as your car won't do its top speed in reverse either). This is not unusual, this is called good engineering practice.

John

I was actually wrong on the parking stand part and the reverse part.

The Robin does sit on itself, not a stand.
But it is listed to have LED lighting.

[KSagal]

I was actually wrong on the parking stand part and the reverse part.

The Robin does sit on itself, not a stand.
But it is listed to have LED lighting.

The images are all over the place. Several of them had tail lights in the back edge of the standing platform.

I saw a better video of the winglet, where the rear facing LED taillights were active to the lean steer and angle, and seemed to change to red when slowing or stopping, but otherwise were blue.

Some of the Robin sites I have found have tail lights, that are integrated to the same general location (molded into the rear of the standing platform, but closer to the center, and wedge shaped) and seem to have red lenses, so they act as reflectors, and do seem to light up, but I cannot tell when. Most do not seem to have these lights. Perhaps they were on the preproduction model and not on the current one, or visa versa.

There do seem to be nubs molded into the bottom rear edge of the case, which is what hits the ground when the machine is leaned back, so it acts as a parking method. Of course, it would also limit the downhill ability and angle, and is only available because the clearance under the machine is so small.

[Tritium]

Heading up to test tmw

[goldwing_midland_tx]

Heading up to test tmw

Look forward to hear about the results

[Tritium]

Look forward to hear about the results

I do too, I'm skeptical but hopefully if it works out, I'll have another PT to use :D
I may even become a dealer, who knows...

[KSagal]

I do too, I'm skeptical but hopefully if it works out, I'll have another PT to use :D
I may even become a dealer, who knows...

Even if you look at it and decide it is not for you, please take lots of pictures.

[Tritium]

Even if you look at it and decide it is not for you, please take lots of pictures.

I definitely will it will be a very interesting product take a look at!

[dgbint]

Patents have 'almost' as much to do with 'business' as they do with 'technicals'.

Segway ( DEKA ) clearly holds a number of strong patents.

Almost any real business would hesitate to try to import and distribute an infringing product.
After all is said and done, if pursued by the patent holder, substantial assets could be lost.

In my view, the only potential distributors of this class of product, would be a distributor ( person or business ) with little assets to lose.
That in itself, makes them a dubious distributor, with a dubious prospect of long term support.

In a nut shell, 'would you bet your house' that distributing a Robin class product is of such high merit and potential profit ?

[KSagal]

All this talk about Segway's patents has me thinking that we may not be looking at this the same way as the rest of the planet.

This is SegwayChat. We all here love Segways. We all have some allegiance and respect for the Segway company. Most of us are owners, or at least wanna be owners of segways.

But on a global scale, whatever we think of our selves, and our size, and how big a fish we are, the Segway world is just a small puddle. The biggest fish in the segway world is a minnow in a large lake, forget about the ocean.

The reason I keep mentioning the Toyota Winglet, is not just because I believe that the robin is a much clearer rip off of the winglet than the segway. (OF course, the winglet may easily be a rip off of the Segway, but I have not heard of it being mass produced or sold to the public)

In the world of big fish, I believe the legal department at Toyota may have more sharks than the legal department of Segway, and I believe the makers of the Robin may care more about that. I don't know.

My understanding of the Chinese business model is that it gives little credence to the ownership of intellectual property. This would include anyone's patents. If they do not care if they are marketing something that belongs to someone else, then their only care would be who could fund the largest opposition.

Also, as I am fairly ignorant to these things, how long to patent protections last? Are they forever? Or do they have sunset clauses?

[PaulDV]

There appears to be one very large assumption being made by most of the detractors in this thread which is that Robstep have actually infringed Segways patents.

A self balancing scooter cannot be patented (just like you cannot patent motor car) while the method by which it works can. So, surely it is entirely possible for a competitor to devise their own self balancing scooter (I actually like the French word 'gyropode' as a generic term) using a different method thereby avoiding a patent infringement?

Either way, I would refrain from calling the Robin a knock-off until it is proven one way or the other.

[Bob.Kerns]

Also, as I am fairly ignorant to these things, how long to patent protections last? Are they forever? Or do they have sunset clauses?

In the US, it's 20 years from filing.

[Bob.Kerns]

There appears to be one very large assumption being made by most of the detractors in this thread which is that Robstep have actually infringed Segways patents.

A self balancing scooter cannot be patented (just like you cannot patent motor car) while the method by which it works can. So, surely it is entirely possible for a competitor to devise their own self balancing scooter (I actually like the French word 'gyropode' as a generic term) using a different method thereby avoiding a patent infringement?

Either way, I would refrain from calling the Robin a knock-off until it is proven one way or the other.

That's not really accurate. Even your own logic fails -- consider describing it as "a scooter which works by self-balancing".

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/qualifying-patent-faq-29120.html

[Tritium]

That's not really accurate. Even your own logic fails -- consider describing it as "a scooter which works by self-balancing".

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/qualifying-patent-faq-29120.html

I must agree, that wasn't well thought out.



- But this is a community forum, we shouldn't be arguing over other companies products, we should be discussing them without all the hate and anger. -

[KSagal]

...
But this is a community forum, we shouldn't be arguing over other companies products, we should be discussing them without all the hate and anger.

I agree here, but we must remember, this topic was brought to us by a marketing person who was pretty clearly a troll.

I have no real issue with the Robin as a product, as I do not know enough about it directly, and have tried to be clear about that. I do desire a personal examination of one, and for lack of that, an examination of one by a less biased individual than a salesman from Robin.

That does not mean we cannot, by inference, judge the product by its representative on this forum. There has been post after post, comment after comment, about how we are segway ambassadors to the world. What novice people see others do on a segway will taint all of us. If the experience with the segway user is positive and polite, it makes it easier for the next segway user who encounters that environment. If the experience with the segway user is negative and rude, it makes it harder for the next segway user who encounters that environment.

Why should this be different for the robin? Many of us were not familiar with the robin. I was one. And our first exposure to the robin was a troll who came on and lied, and disregarded intellectual property as a minimum. A person who dismissed advice and information from knowledgeable people (far smarter than me) and made it clear that they did not care about certain facts.

Now, if all segway experiences are influenced by the preceding one, why would you not feel that all Robin experiences would not be equally influenced?

[Tritium]

I agree here, but we must remember, this topic was brought to us by a marketing person who was pretty clearly a troll.

I have no real issue with the Robin as a product, as I do not know enough about it directly, and have tried to be clear about that. I do desire a personal examination of one, and for lack of that, an examination of one by a less biased individual than a salesman from Robin.

That does not mean we cannot, by inference, judge the product by its representative on this forum. There has been post after post, comment after comment, about how we are segway ambassadors to the world. What novice people see others do on a segway will taint all of us. If the experience with the segway user is positive and polite, it makes it easier for the next segway user who encounters that environment. If the experience with the segway user is negative and rude, it makes it harder for the next segway user who encounters that environment.

Why should this be different for the robin? Many of us were not familiar with the robin. I was one. And our first exposure to the robin was a troll who came on and lied, and disregarded intellectual property as a minimum. A person who dismissed advice and information from knowledgeable people (far smarter than me) and made it clear that they did not care about certain facts.

Now, if all segway experiences are influenced by the preceding one, why would you not feel that all Robin experiences would not be equally influenced?
Yes, the "troll" was quite obviously being asinine in their regards and that was not very acceptable.
I agree on the influencing part, I always try and make the best.

I'm sure many other members would've been a bit nicer if they didn't blatantly spam the hell out of us and didn't lie, but alas, that was not the case.

Many of us still have questions and dislikes of the Robin so that's why I thought if buy one and see what all the hype is.
Unfortunately due to my financial situation, I am unable to purchase one soon.
But as I did promise, I will be testing on in the coming day or if I cannot make it up today, I will on Monday.

A product is only as good as the company who stands behind it and the company is only as good as the people who run it.

[Gihgehls]

I agree here, but we must remember, this topic was brought to us by a marketing person who was pretty clearly a troll.


I'd say he/she is closer to a shill than a troll.

You keep using that word: I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Tritium]

I'd say he/she is closer to a shill than a troll.

You keep using that word: I do not think it means what you think it means.

He is using it correctly.

A troll is a person who knowingly and intentionally posts defamatory, obscene or untrue messages, usually with the intention to offend or provoke.

[Gihgehls]

He is using it correctly.

A troll is a person who knowingly and intentionally posts defamatory, obscene or untrue messages, usually with the intention to offend or provoke.

You're right. My apologies.

[KSagal]

Actually, I kind of agree with Gihgehls. Shill is what she intended to be. But a shill in front of a carnival tent is not really a shill when they go on an internet forum and say things intended to mislead. At that point, I believe they become a troll.

I am familiar with the term troll as it relates to the internet. When I was a child, it was a creature famous for collecting tolls on bridges, but without the tendency to go out on disability, as modern toll collectors seem to do.

I am not familiar with the internet term of shill.


Speaking of that, I am familiar with the telephone term of a 'telephone tiger'. This is someone who is very aggressive on the phone, but not so much in person. Surely there are people who are very aggressive on line, but not so much in person. What do we call them?

[Tritium]

Actually, I kind of agree with Gihgehls. Shill is what she intended to be. But a shill in front of a carnival tent is not really a shill when they go on an internet forum and say things intended to mislead. At that point, I believe they become a troll.

I am familiar with the term troll as it relates to the internet. When I was a child, it was a creature famous for collecting tolls on bridges, but without the tendency to go out on disability, as modern toll collectors seem to do.

I am not familiar with the internet term of shill.


Speaking of that, I am familiar with the telephone term of a 'telephone tiger'. This is someone who is very aggressive on the phone, but not so much in person. Surely there are people who are very aggressive on line, but not so much in person. What do we call them?
I call them:
"Users in my blocked user list"

[Bob.Kerns]

But this is a community forum, we shouldn't be arguing over other companies products, we should be discussing them without all the hate and anger. -

I quite agree, but welcome to the Internet, sigh.

[CovRob]

Surely there are people who are very aggressive on line, but not so much in person. What do we call them?

A "keyboard warrior" is the term I've read about people who contribute opinions quite aggressively or forcefully ...

[Tritium]

A "keyboard warrior" is the term I've read about people who contribute opinions quite aggressively or forcefully ...

I thought that term was for people who typed and or replied fast.

[CovRob]

I thought that term was for people who typed and or replied fast.

Maybe a different interpretation this side of the pond ;)

[KSagal]

From facebook, I am seeing that they have a robbin at MAMS in Styre, and they seem to be having fun trying it and gliding on it.

Anyone who there should tell us your thoughts on that small item.