We <dislike> Irresponsible Renters [Archive]

vpv

06-01-2003, 04:22 AM

A rental center cannot be held responsible for irresponsible renters.. just like Avis Rental company cannot be held responsible for renting a car to an irresponsible driver.

Training is not the issue either.... The Segway will be available in the future without mandatory training.. (at least that's the response from a Segway trainer when posed with the question of the future of Segway)... As a renter previously indicated, everyone will have learning curve. Whether that learning curve translates into accidents/deaths is mute too...(people had to learn how to drive cars that kill)..

The real issue is how cities will have to accomodate this new technology because as Dean Kamen had alluded to several times, the HT is built for the cities.

Recent bans are misguided, for many reasons. These bans will be contested all the way to the supreme court and will be reversed.

Federal laws will be enacted that will accomodate these EPAMD's that will ensure the right of the rider and pedestrians.

06-01-2003, 04:33 AM

quote:Originally posted by vpv A rental center cannot be held responsible for irresponsible renters.

yes they can, watch what happens when the first accident hits with rentals. a jury (if and when this happens) will decide -if- someone acted in good faith.

do you think andrew got proper training? he didn't get to watch the video or get trained right.

quote:Originally posted by vpv Training is not the issue either.... The Segway will be available in the future without mandatory training.. (at least that's the response from a Segway trainer when posed with the question of the future of Segway)... As a renter previously indicated, everyone will have learning curve. Whether that learning curve translates into accidents/deaths is mute too...(people had to learn how to drive cars that kill)..

that is not -real- it's a rumor, sorry. when that happens, it's a valid point.

quote:Originally posted by vpv The real issue is how cities will have to accomodate this new technology because as Dean Kamen had alluded to several times, the HT is built for the cities.

they won't, if they've already banned the hts or heard many cities have banned them.

quote:Originally posted by vpv Recent bans are misguided, for many reasons. These bans will be contested all the way to the supreme court and will be reversed.

okay, so you're saying we're going to need a supreme court battle? sorry folks, you'll need vpv to help out with that one. i don't have 4 years and that type of cash to work on that.

quote:Originally posted by vpv Federal laws will be enacted that will accomodate these EPAMD's that will ensure the right of the rider and pedestrians.

how? who? you? segway? when? how long til that happens?

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

PoloAk

06-01-2003, 04:33 AM

Well, vpv, i completely respect your right to an opinion, which you state very well. I still disagree. The issue is how to deal with problems now.

Kelsey

06-01-2003, 04:37 AM

i know of at least one place that "fudged" a bit to segway, told them it was for another type of biz, got a few people, got the hts...and are now renting.

segway can't stop people from buying hts, even with limits, you can get 10 people to buy 2 each.

cheers,
pt

quote:Originally posted by stevew When a rental business sets up shop how do they acquire say 10 HTs? Is it ten individuals via Amazon (with ten people attending training) or a commercial sale. If commercial, doesn't Seg LLC regulate how commercial buyers use the product, i.e. no rentals unless set up through LLC. It seems Segway could stem this tide assuming HTs are acquired through commercial sales channel. Any thoughts?

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

vpv

06-01-2003, 05:35 AM

You're right Kelsey.. there a NOW question.. :)

Here's what I think should be done now:

LLC should allow more rental centers.... (just as they will be doing with Keolis, in France and is now doing with Nevrland.). They can provide guidelines on how to operate rental centers.

Cities should allow more rental centers to operate in their jurisdiction, either as part of the tourism/transportation hub (this will be a new revenue stream to them given the current budget & economic crisis of states and cities today).

Rental centers ought to do as Larry has previously suggested to do, work with cities, improve training, etc. However, since they cannot initially discriminate between responsible vs irresponsible renters, unless previous irresponsible actions are known to the rental centers prior to renting, they cannot be held liable. Yes this will be a future court decision.

Renters, however, cannot be faulted just because they've invested less than we do on these machines. I don't buy the idea that owners are better than renters. It's a selfish idea. Do you think renters are more apt to mow down pedestrians than owners? NOT! If training is an issue, let them rent some more (it's their money), they'll learn more as they rent more..

Renters are responsible for their own actions, just like owners are.

Blinky

06-01-2003, 06:01 AM

quote:A rental center cannot be held responsible for irresponsible renters.. just like Avis Rental company cannot be held responsible for renting a car to an irresponsible driver.

Training is not the issue either.... The Segway will be available in the future without mandatory training.. (at least that's the response from a Segway trainer when posed with the question of the future of Segway)... As a renter previously indicated, everyone will have learning curve. Whether that learning curve translates into accidents/deaths is mute too...(people had to learn how to drive cars that kill)..
How can you say 'training' is not an issue. We don't exactly know what Segway LLC will be doing in the future with this issue. Even if they were to make Segway available for sale in the future without mandatory training, there was a 'training video' being discussed as its replacement. A video that someone can bring home and practice with their Segway. When will someone renting a Segway have time to watch a training video? This has nothing to do with rentals.

The Segway Rental place will have to train any potential renters. They will be responsible for making sure that the Renter has full knowledge of how to operate a Segway and the safety involved.

The REAL question here is how can the Rental place adequately train a Segway Renter. I think Segway LLC must be more involved.

What should also be considered is not allowing people who rent the 'RED KEY'. Something slower and more manageable for the renter might limit accidents for the inexperienced Segway Renter.

It is not like renting out a bike, you can train a monkey to ride one. It is not like renting out a car, where the state must determine whether or not one is qualified for this. The Segway is a new technology, and it must be handled a totally different way.

So, lets start discussing suggestions of how Rental Companies can make sure Renters are not putting themselves or others at risk of injuries, make sure they know how to abide by local laws, and to make sure they do this thing right!

http://www.bl.com/ben/gifs/Blinky.gif http://www.harpy.net/paul/blinky.jpg

06-01-2003, 09:30 AM

quote:Originally posted by vpv You're right Kelsey.. there a NOW question.. :) Here's what I think should be done now: LLC should allow more rental centers.... (just as they will be doing with Keolis, in France and is now doing with Nevrland.). They can provide guidelines on how to operate rental centers.

more places? vpv- i don't think you get a key point. many rental places -don't- want to work with segway, they don't want guidelines, that all costs money and cuts into profit. jack in canada didn't even show a safety video.

there's no reasons rental places will work with segway unless they're running a real biz, most of these places are "fly-by-night".

watch and see.

quote:Originally posted by vpvCities should allow more rental centers to operate in their jurisdiction, either as part of the tourism/transportation hub (this will be a new revenue stream to them given the current budget & economic crisis of states and cities today)..

sorry, i do not buy it. that is not a reason cities should allow anything, cities -do- allow anyone to run any type of biz. if rental places open up across from a busy park and don't work with the city they'll get bans (like seattle). rentals need high traffic areas, like a park, the model is flawed.

i think you're missing some major facts here.

quote:Originally posted by vpvRental centers ought to do as Larry has previously suggested to do, work with cities, improve training, etc. However, since they cannot initially discriminate between responsible vs irresponsible renters, unless previous irresponsible actions are known to the rental centers prior to renting, they cannot be held liable. Yes this will be a future court decision..

so you're saying rental centers need to run some type of background check on "irresponsible actions" and we're all heading for court decisions?

well, that sucks.

who is going to pay for all these court cases?

rental places can and will be found liable, watch and see.

quote:Originally posted by vpvRenters, however, cannot be faulted just because they've invested less than we do on these machines. I don't buy the idea that owners are better than renters. It's a selfish idea. Do you think renters are more apt to mow down pedestrians than owners? NOT! If training is an issue, let them rent some more (it's their money), they'll learn more as they rent more...

i 100% think renters are more likely to mow down pedestrians.

that's right.

i 100% think renters are more likely to mow down pedestrians.

i've said it here before, i'll say it again. you can expect an accident to happen soon it'll be a rental situation. i hope i'm wrong, so far i haven't been.

do the math. lots of hts, small areas, new riders repeat x 10 hts x 8 hours per day x 7 days a week.

quote:Originally posted by vpvRenters are responsible for their own actions, just like owners are. .

sorry, i don't agree. when rental places do not show videos, teach proper training and do not work with the city, etc...etc...the people who rent are going to cause accidents and incidents. it will be at the fault of the rider, but also the rental place which is motivated by profits.

you can't just say here's a segway, good luck, it's all your fault if anything happens. it doesn't work that way.

vpv, have you rented a segway ht? have you gone hundreds of miles in a major city for the last 6 months? have you spoke with 4 rental places? some segway authorized some not? i have. have you worked with your city's park, transportation, and other officials? i have.

i think you need to do some research.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

mrleisure

06-01-2003, 12:37 PM

Hey Phil, it's called capitalism and it's really popular here in the western hemisphere. Thankfully, someone is willing to take of massive risk of being the first one to rent out Segways to the general public. The free market will sort these so-called "safety" issues out in no time.

I can right now, today, go rent a nail gun or a wood chipper and not have to watch a video. Or I could fly over to Nantucket and take on cobblestones with a rented moped. These activities are far more dangerous than riding a Segway on black without watching a video first.

Why should some random (and self appointed Segway authority) guy like you be the arbiter of what constitutes "proper training"? If someone rented me a jet-pack with only five seconds training I'd say that's really between me, him, and our insurance companies and I'd be really pissed if you or some park ranger came over bitching about lack of training when I was up jetting around.

I'm sick of people being concerned about my safety, if I want to ride my Segway down stairs, or have sex with hookers or do any one of a million other so-called "unsafe" things that is really up to me. Remember when Dean Kamen told you he moved to NH because he liked the state motto "live free or die"?

And why exactly are you so concerned about other people's safety anyway? I mean, holy smokes, we're talking about people rolling around sidewalks at 4 MPH aren't we? If you really care about public safety, why not go after something that has been statistically proven to be dangerous?, like say, motorcycles or skateboards.

ftropea

06-01-2003, 12:46 PM

MrLeisure,

Your post makes me wonder if more people just aren't seeing the "big picture" here. Yes, safety is important. Nobody wants to see anyone get hurt. But you know what the bigger issue is? Whether or not our rights to Seg will be impacted by the business practices of some of these "hit and run" rental companies.

Take a few minutes and catch up on the latest happenings. Look at the situation in Seattle. Also, check out what this rental Co. in Canada is doing. If this keeps up, there will be fewer and fewer places you can ride your Seg. To put it in your terms - this will be the equivalent of not having a place to have sex with your hooker.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

nocanfly

06-01-2003, 12:55 PM

Perhaps Segway LLC should take a proactive role in working with rental companies by establishing guidelines and recommendations on how a rental company should operate. They should a put a package together they could provide to anyone who wants to start a rental business. There are going to be a lot of new rental companies opening in the future and there's nothing you can do to stop that. So I believe it's in everyone's best interest if Segway LLC provided entrepreneurs the support to start such a business.

You can't stop capitalism and the freedom in starting a company. it's up to Segway LLC to try to 'regulate' the industry. Most new industries in the beginning tend to be unregulated but eventually they get regulated through the competitive nature of capitalism.

ftropea

06-01-2003, 01:08 PM

NoCan,

I see a contradiction there. Even if Segway LLC put together a package, a "hit and run" rental Co. wouldn't need to adhere to any of those guidelines - and we would still have the problems we've seen in Seattle and Canada. They can't "regulate" greed.

That said, I think this business can be done right. But what is the compelling reason for a Rental Co. to do it right? I say if they want to make money next year, and the year after that - then they'll do it right. If they're just concerned with making some quick cash and are prepared to liquidate in 3 months - then they'll do it the wrong way.

Either way, I don't see anyone making an argument that we should stop rental companies. I see people discussing what some rental companies are doing, how that's worked out and what impact it's had on Seg owners in general.

I think a lot people keep missing the "big picture" here. I see lots of people rushing to the defense and in support of "hit and run" rental companies.. and capitalism. (yay capitalism)

But at the end of the day, when the money is made and the bans are in effect - who is left with $5K Segway HTs sitting in the corner? Exactly.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

nocanfly

06-01-2003, 01:15 PM

I agree Frank that it's almost impossible to stop greed from renting segways without regard to safety. But Segway could provide incentives. You know "Authorized Segway Rental" status could be provided which means those without this designation would be suddenly appear to be "rogue" if you know what I mean. They could provide discounts for legitimate rental companies who want to purchase Segways. I'm sure there are other ways Segway LLC could be proactive in regulating the Segway rental industry. As you said you can't stop greed but you can reward people who want to do it right.

Plus establishing a Segway Users Association could be a way for you to unite your voices as well to counter greedy unscrupulous individuals who want to make a quick buck.

wayne

06-01-2003, 01:29 PM

I agree that rental companies are here to stay.
LLC should take part in this before it is to late to help cut down on the ones that are there just to make a fast buck and move on.
Rental companies should be licensed and trained by LLC.
Rental companies that are not licensed by LLC should have their warranties pulled from their Segs. LLC should also put on their web site the rental companies that have been approved by them(LLC).

Seg-On

nocanfly

06-01-2003, 01:32 PM

Now that's what I'm talking about wayne! I agree about pulling warranties if they are used in an unauthorized manner. It would make someone think before spending all that money.

mrleisure

06-01-2003, 01:55 PM

NoCanFly, exactly!

You have made the point I was driving at much more easily. Capitalism is ugly, but there is nothing like the free market to quickly sort through things. The "quick buck bad guys" appear in every market. And then the market responds, weeding out those who don't provide good value.

The guys who are setting up Segway rentals now are admirable in their audacity. Thankfully, they are driven by profit and they will be the first to work out what is acceptable training in the real world. If their customers get hurt, they will be forced to either solve the problem or go out of business. If their local town doesn't like them, they will be forced to prove their value or go out of business. They have put their money where their mouths are. They are doing the heavy lifting of deciding what the business model will be.

I think there is too much obsessing about "what will the public think" in these and other forums from current Segway owners. Get out and ride anywhere and people go bananas with excitment at the sight of you, it's undeniable.

Everything new takes a bunch of arrows at first. Think of the Internet Cafe's of the mid 90's. They first got blasted for trying making a buck "because the Internet should be free", then they got blasted because "What if my kid goes in there and downloads porn?" and then they got completely ignored once the Internet became accepted. How quickly we forget that millions of people got their first introduction to the Internet, and then once they saw how awesome it was, bought a computer and got connected because of those first Internet Cafe's.

BruceWright

06-01-2003, 02:03 PM

Localities should pass safety ordinances on rental agencies, mandating training levels, setting speed limits, limiting number of Segways in an area, etc. Make them adhere to these or lose their business license.

It's done all the time in other areas of business.

(also, perhaps with all these threads, we could neaten up the conversation, folks. Can we have one thread that talks about possible political actions to stop the problem without the other threads leaking in? Folks in this thread are talking about the problem and solutions, and other folks keep chiming in saying there's not a problem. That's a point, but can it live in the other 15 threads that already discuss if there's a problem or not? Otherwise that's the only discussion we ever will get, this constant, constant back and forth: This is a problem, no it's not, yes it is, you shut up, you shut up.)

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

06-01-2003, 03:43 PM

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright Localities should pass safety ordinances on rental agencies, mandating training levels, setting speed limits, limiting number of Segways in an area, etc. Make them adhere to these or lose their business license.

so my city which is already bogged down like most cities needs to enact new systems to regulate the segway rental biz? and then enforce them?

most cities will say, hmm...what's easier?

ban.

in fact, in seattle, that's what they did bruce. the parks dept could spend all this time to study the problem(s) with rentals, but they didn't... they banned. right or wrong that is what happened, and it'll happen again and again.

more gov isn't the answer, we'll need 500 segway gov affairs people to fight thousands of battles.

...and i do not know the answer.

i'm dissapointed that folks aren't looking at the facts again and again.

enjoy for segways folks.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

willysnout

06-01-2003, 03:51 PM

vpv

06-01-2003, 05:39 PM

pt..
if your city has ban your segway because of that rental company... TOUGH!! Live with it! Get on with your life.. Get a car!.

You cannot stop a rental company rent Segways just because of your self-appointed petty rule of so-called safety... IT'S A NON-ISSUE. Segways are safe.. The market will sort it out.. rules will be in placed.. people will continue to use their Segways (rented or not).
And keep your facts to yourself... you're not God ( "I 100% think renters are more likely to mow down pedestrians")<<<---- this is an irresponsible statement!

06-01-2003, 05:47 PM

vpv-

wow, so that's how you really feel. i happen to support the park ban. i'm working with the rental places in my area to, i am not trying to stop them, nor do i plan to.

what have you done lately?

you think "the market will sort it out" no, it's all going to take hard work and effort educating people. we might make it, but it won't be because people say "tough, get one with your life, get a car".

good luck with your planned supreme court case and new laws getting passed.

yes, i 100% think renters are more likely to mow down pedestrians. you say segways are safe, i say -yes- when in the hands of properly trained people, but -no- when they are not, like the folks in canada who rent without even showing a video.

sorry you don't like the facts.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

vpv

06-01-2003, 06:13 PM

PT.. Just want to clarify. You mentioned on your previous posts that if your city bans the segway entirely that you'll have to get your car back and "it's something that you don't want to do" and you blame that rental company for your dilema.--this is the only reason why I say "get on with your life and get a car." It's not meant to be personal and I apologize if it was construed that way. But it really tells you something about yourself.. Maybe there's a bit of jealously out there that you or someone invested $5K on this machine vs someone investing $20 that you seemed to think that you've ended up with a dust collector..because of this ban. Welcome to the world of invesment--taking risks..your right of using the segway is no greater (or better) than the right of a renter. Both have fair use of a product and that's what matter. Your constant attack on renters/rental biz will not help your cause of getting the Segway widely acceptable.

06-01-2003, 06:21 PM

vpv-

again, you are totally off. i am working -with- the rental places in my area and trying to even work with the one in vancouver. so now you're saying i'm jealous that someone is renting? good god, you're really trying to offend me now i suppose.

you need to look at the facts and what i am trying to do, educate us, educate rental places and segway on what is currently going on.

i'll say it again, in another way-- the right of someone using the segway -is- greater (or better) than the right of a renter when they were not trained properly. i feel putting segways in busy parks and busy pedestrian areas is a bad idea, and i also feel renting to kids under 16 and not showing safety videos is not good for any of us either.

kindly skip over my messages and don't reply if you're going to insult me over and over again, thanks.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

ftropea

06-01-2003, 06:36 PM

vpv,

They're easy to miss, but there are tons of threads/message here about this issue. For the most part, we've been critical of two (2) rental companies. The one in pt's backyard (cause of the park ban) and the one in Canada (where they did the 15 min training - where that video was shot of Andrew face planting..)

There are other rental companies out there that seem to be doing the right thing.. or at least really trying to. There is Larry's FunTrans and Keith's NEVRland.

These discussions have helped raised awareness about the potential problems the rental biz can cause for Seggers in general. FunTrans and NEVRland have both chimed in on the discussions and have both acknowledged and agreed that this business needs to be done a better way.. and maybe their way is *the* way.

You know, I've been following the discussions and hope I reading it wrong.. but it almost seems like a few folks who aren't "living" the problem.. the bans.. or potential bans... are less concerned or indifferent to the whole rental dilemma (and other concerns), while those with this problem in their backyard, or without EPAMD laws, are more concerned and feel like they should be more proactive.

I hope this isn't a case of "Well, this doesn't really concern me - but here's my two cents."

I hope we all see the "bigger picture" here because I can honestly say I worry about bans in other cities like Sacramento, LA, Seattle, Chicago.. and to me, I feel just as passionately about your plights as I do about the Seg situation here in NY.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

vpv

06-01-2003, 06:51 PM

pt.. noone is trying to insult you in this forum (or at least i'm not)... but if you feel that way.. that's you're prerogative and you're also welcome to skip me on your responses.

Frank:
I'm aware of the issues, the video, the rental biz..etc.. and I'm no less concerned about bans than anybody else here in this forum..I live it everyday when I take the segway to an unknown territory thinking that it might not be accepted..

But in my opinion... some people in this forum have lost the even bigger picture and have pretty much made it their daily routine to bark at the wrong tree.. If that's the case then this forum is in a way a waste and not the proper place to further the vision that we all share of having the segway widely accepted...and I'm hoping that i'm wrong.

06-01-2003, 06:54 PM

vpv-

you've been insulting me for awhile now, it's okay.

i thought you said a supreme court case and new laws were the way to solve this.

maybe this forum is a waste for you since many of us are barking up the wrong tree, good luck with court cases.

acceptance takes -hard work- and tackling the hard issues like rentals, it's not going away we need to work on this now.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

RAG1247

06-01-2003, 07:22 PM

As far as segway rental comments are concerned it is hard to know where to post a comments since several threads are going on, but here goes:

1. Regardless of whether the Segway population increases due to rental units or units purchased by individuals, the increased numbers of units in any given area is also going to lead to increased scrutiny by the public and municipalities.

2. While many of these rental companies are being classified as greedy and irresponsible, it remains to be seen if this is truly the case. Nevrland seems to have a good reputation but in a way they are a totally different category based on their being located in Celebration where 100+ residents have purchased units. I understand that Nevrland is looking at franchises in other areas of Florida and it will be interesting to see how this affects such areas.

3. Much mention is made of inadequate training, but let’s face it, the majority of owners, if not all, received the bulk of their training after receipt of the unit. Segway provided what amounts to 1 or 2 hours of training at best and many areas such as the use of yellow and black keys were never covered or tried by purchasers, other than possibly by the early contest winners. I also believe that the Segway training which now seems to be called orientation will eventually disappear, as far as LLC is concerned and they will rely more on manuals and videos.

4. Like it or not many of these posts seem to be saying let me do it but not others.

5. If you live in densely populated areas, growth of Segway units in that area are no doubt going to influence how you will be able to use it and may result in outright bans. If you live in rural areas (except for some areas in California, where I think the proposed bans will continue to escalate like wild fire), you probably will not experience such banning or restrictions.

6. It may be possible that LLC can help in controlling rental centers (I am sure they can), but their entire marketing effort is still in a state of flux and I expect changes from week to week as they balance the interest of Segway owners and their own business plan and goals. LLC is a small company with limited resources as far as numbers of personnel to run around and battle the huge number of municipalities and city councils throughout the country. They are responding and I think doing a good job when they can present their case, but as we have already seen in some areas, these proposed bans seem to occur overnight without any advance warning.

7. Some are emphasizing the lack of training received by renters. I suspect no amount of limited training would truly be satisfactory, since the 1 or 2 hours at LLC did not make any of us experts. Again, imo, the problem relates more to numbers of Segway units which appear instantly and not over time.

8. While we might say either renters or rental companies might be irresponsible there are examples of situations detailed in this forum by members/owners indicating that they may be somewhat less than responsible.

9. While I cherish the Segway and its use, the vast majority of individuals have no interest in owning a Segway (and in many cases could not afford such a purchase) and this includes city council members. Those people who have no interest in a Segway also have no interest in whether or not its use is banned or restricted.

We can all continue to do what we can. I have sent emails to those various councils considering a ban, but in reality, I am not sure how much help it is if the email is from someone 3000 miles away. On the other hand the involvement of everyone is necessary at their local level.

Richard
Ft. Lauderdale
http://www.sonyguy.com/stars_rag2.gif[/img=left] [i]If you can’t change the people around you, change the people around you

vpv

06-01-2003, 07:52 PM

Rag:
"the problem relatea more to numbers of Segway units which appear instantly and not over time."---This problem really relates more to misinformed/misguided complainers in that particular park and not to the number of units which instantly appeared at that place.

When people complain, authorities react/ban. People who are misinformed about the Segway will complain. And authorities will react to complains regarless if there were prior agreements between authorities and Segway users.

It'd be interesting to see how people will react if 10 or more segway Owners appear instantly in one location during this 1st User conference currently being organized. If 10 or more Segway owners appear instantly in a location where complainers happen to be, they will complain and authorities will react, regardless of prior arrangement.

So it's not the issue of rental companies.

06-01-2003, 08:00 PM

vpv-

once again you're trying to confuse the issue and make a situation that -hasn't happened-.

as per MY CITY they said the issue was with the RENTALS in the park, 10 units each hour, each day, 7 days a week in a busy area. HAD they worked with the city they would have told them that. OWNERS have visited the park and told to leave and the city did not see the need to post signs and hire someone to guard the park like they are now.

you don't get it, we need TIME to get to a time and place were 10 owners actually are around before bans happen.

during the user conference there will be a BALLROOM IN A HOTEL IN A PRIVATE AREA booked and you won't see 10 segways in a busy park, and if you do it will be with permission.

hope that clears it up. the issue -was- with a rental company in my area and it -is- an issue with vancouver.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

Linc2000

06-01-2003, 08:13 PM

Hey RAG1247! I hope you are mentioning the environmental benefits that will accrue to everyone if the Segway is used to replace automobile trips with Segway trips. Everyone benefits. Also if we can cut down the use of Mid East oil and someday become independent of that source of energy it could eliminate our need to fight any wars over there. If the world could stop sending them so much oil money into the Mid East we could slow down the money flowing to terrorists. The Segway may be an important step to energy independence. The technology developed and that continues to be developed for the Segway and the ibot will likely lead to innovations that have not yet been dreamed of. The Segway is not an invention we should lose because we allow it to be used recklessly or carelessly and it should not be banned because we don't have the courage to take the limited risks that go with any new way of accomplishing goals. Lincoln [8D]

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vpv

06-01-2003, 08:23 PM

"and you won't see 10 segways in a busy park" --- We already did.. And there will be 10 more in the future, maybe hundreds. You can't keep them locked up "IN A BALLROOM" or some garage. They'll be everywhere as common as any pedestrians. We've seen it in your park, albeit people reacted negatively. But the negativism will be sorted out.. misguided/misinformed people will be educated and they will realize the importance of this alternate source of transportion. It's starting to happen NOW.

06-01-2003, 08:26 PM

good luck on the supreme court case you have planned vpv.

i'm working with the rental places and my city officials to make sure everyone is educated about all these issues.

i guess in 4-5 years if they hear your case, we'll all be able to glide in busy parks.

"sorted out" nope, it's going to take hard work and talking with people.

what have you done lately to help?

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

sfh1790

06-01-2003, 08:49 PM

pt -

Just thought I'd chime in with a message of support for what you're doing about this segway rental issue...:)

IMO, a number of the chat members have fired off at you without doing much thinking. At the least, they showed a lack of understanding of how the issue is playing out here in Seattle.

And a few of them don't seem to take a ban seriously, although that appears to be changing (I'm writing this Sunday afternoon, after cruising the forum again).

A lot of the chat group has faith that "everything will turn out alright" by itself. I think you recognize that "turn out alright" is most often the result of a lot of hard work, in educating people in business and government to come up with a reasonable way of regulating behavior.

Thanks again for all your efforts. I know myself and the other Segway owners will benefit from what you're doing (even if they don't know it yet...:)

Time to get out and enjoy some of that rare Seattle sunshine...

sh
sheng@drizzle.com

dexter

06-01-2003, 09:26 PM

I'll admit I find myself occassionally rolling my eyes at the way pt "comes across" in many of his posts on this subject. There are times I think he is over-reacting, or at least presenting unreasonable goals given human nature.

However if anyone reads though ALL (or at least a majority) of his posts, I don't see how anyone can question his motives or intentions. Maybe he thinks he is always right about everything. Maybe recent events have proven that he is always right. Maybe the events have many interpretations.

But pt has never come across as "whining" about bans that effect him, and never has come across as jealous. He is always looking ahead to the future, and what can be proactively done to make that future better for Seggers. You may disagree with his methods, and you may even disagree with his vision of the future. But I can't see people accusing him of being selfish, jealous, or gripey. As each incident occurs, he puts it in his arsenal of "facts" to use to help guide his future actions. It isn't about him "not letting go", it is about building on past experiences.

Honestly, I can see why some of his posts have set off an emotional reaction. Some of them have gotten my goat a bit too. But I've never questioned his motives here. That's why I haven't been posting too much in these threads. I never had any serious issue to take with any of the points he has been making.

Tempers seem to be flaring more and more. As things start moving from calling people "holier than thou" to calling them "selfish and hipocritical" it is really turning me off.

You don't want to evoke my wrath. Don't forget how mean I am. And don't forget that I'm starting off with a chip of jealousy, having never owned a ROBOT DOG. :)

This is obviously a hot issue. Let's keep open minds and try to see different sides of this. And if you have very strong ideas of what should or shouldn't be done, maybe you should invest your time and energy travelling, talking to people in real situations, and presenting your points in person to the people who in a position to effect the things you find important.

Keep up the good work in the real world, pt. Whether I agree with you or not (FTR, mostly I agree with you).

Dave C.
me: www.idexter.com
work: www.idealjacobs.com
play: www.nyline.org

BruceWright

06-01-2003, 11:14 PM

In defense of pt, I too have a ROBOT DOG!

But it's just a cheapy i-cybie, not the expensive Aibo. So that's where my jealousy stems from.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

PoloAk

06-02-2003, 01:58 AM

I'm going to take one long, deep breath before I get started here.

I am so terribly upset by the inane bickering and extreme opposition that certain individual posters are making. I am upset that you are jumping down one another's throats, and that instead of trying to see the other person's point of view, there is condemnation and meanness. There is NO one here better than the other and no one deserves to be told they are stupid. Believe me, there are those I'd like to yell at, but what good does that do any of us?

The problem at hand is a mountain of negative feedback from uninformed persons. Instead of dealing with council members or city officials, now there are members of the voting community who are complaining about the Segway. Certain activist groups are speaking against the Segway, and LLC is rarely heard from. Now, new complaints from the misuse of the Segway by rentors are being made.

None of us expected that when we purchased this device we would have to become politicians or diplomats, but that is what each of us is now faced with.

The Rental issue is exacerbating the problems that had already existed in our communities. If a couple of Segway owners caused a sidewalk ban in SF, just imagine what might happen if they are inundated with fifty! Yes, free-markets and Capitalism are important, but so is taking responsibility for those freedoms. If someone wants to rent out segways, then it is their responsibility to make the least impact on the current social climate.

For example, if you live in a pedestrian city-a city with NO cars at all-and someone decides to rent them out one day, you might be opposed to the issue. There might be concerns about safety, who has the right-of-way, and how life will be different in general. But if the rental agency works with the city to create rules and guidlines that protect the rights of both the "walkers" and the "riders" then how much more productive is that?!

Pt and vpv both have good points. I don't care who thinks the ban is good or bad, but whichever way it goes there will be ramifications. If the park ban in Seattle leads to a city wide ban because there was a lack of group effort, then that would be a very sad situation. If Seattle banned rental agencies because of a lack of group effort, that too would be a sad situation.

Mostly, I want both sides to realize that sooner or later, rental agenices will come to YOUR city. Those agencies will have some effect on YOUR city. What that effect is will be up, in part, to you and what efforts you make.

Consider carefully.

One last item. There is something within each one of us, each of us that own the Segway that tie us all together. We are all of diffent age, sex, race, political affiliation, state residence, religion, hair color, profession, and shoe size. Still, there is something that drew each of us to the Segway. Consider that too when responding to someone's post.

Kelsey

BruceWright

06-02-2003, 03:27 AM

Well said, Kelsey.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

whistler

06-02-2003, 04:58 AM

Perhaps the "best" way to insure that renters are fully trained before they can rent a

Segway is for each state to require an indorsement to their drivers license. I have a

motorcycle indorsement on my drivers license which tells anyone that I have also passed

training and testing to be qualified to ride a motorcycle. This would not guarentee

"responsibility", but it would keep untrained people off the Segway.
Of coarse.... then each state would want to regulate the Segway even more. Probably want

everyone to have signal lights and break lights. Maybe a horn. Maybe even seat

belts............. oops................ NEVERMIND!!! LOL...

Actually, the best thing to do is to do NOTHING. The "problem" will take care of itself

eventually. When enough Segways are in the hands of the public, cities will be more inclined

to do what the "public" wants.... or lose their jobs... Eventually even those in charge of

places like public parks will come to realize that they too must comply with what the

"public" wants.... if they continue to be so closed minded as to ban Segway... they will

simply lose their jobs and someone with a "brain" will take their place.

I realize that all this will take time..... but, it could happen much faster if Segway LLC

would simply sell the HTs instead of dragging their feet the way they have been. Then many

more people would have them... and the more people who have them... the more influence they

will have collectively... the less "nonsense" will occur. Getting from now to then is what

needs to happen and as fast as possible.

So don't blame the rental company... they will not go away... there will be more and more of

them. Blame the closed minded individuals who want to CONTROL you... and do what is

necessary to get rid of them... or change their minds.

There are several reasons why I have not yet bought an HT. One is cost. Another is I'd

rather have the "p" model, because it's lighter and smaller and more pedestrian friendly

than the larger models, in my opinion. But the MAIN reason I am delaying purchase is for

most of these kinds of "problems" to go away... and they will go away... when enough people

with Segways are out there.

The early adopters all knew that they would have problems and battles to use their HTs.

That's part of being an early adopter. So I have a hard time understanding why some get so

upset when some little thing like "renters getting banned from A park" happens. Just don't

go where they've been banned. Looks like some are afraid that if there is one more ban

somewhere, then the whole Segway experiment will just collapse and Segway LLC will go out of

business. That's not likely to happen..... but it could if Segway LLC doesn't start selling

thousands of HTs each month and in a hurry...

06-02-2003, 05:22 AM

whistler-

all great points, that said--i don't think any public official will ever get voted out because they promote a segway ban.

all of out "problems" aren't going to go away or take care of themselves, we all need to take an active role educated the public and our cities on the merits of segway hts. nothing is going to go away even if lots of people buy segways, we all need to work hard so we can use our hts safely in our cities.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

tsg

06-02-2003, 07:15 AM

Wow. Where to begin?

I think the idea and purpose behind these forums is great, and I'm glad we have them. That said, what actually exists in practice seems to fall far short of ideal.

Regardless of how you feel about rentals, the authoritarian stance of "I'm right and you can't possibly be right... and certainly nowhere near as right as I am." doesn't do anyone good. The same goes for "You're not doing as much (or as experienced) as I am, and you should be like me" stuff. The 'last-word'isms and repetitive quoted posts do show the true colors of the posters, however. There is room enough for every opinion, and little value to reponding to everyone's posts just to reiterate your own.

If rental situations are to be improved, then that is where productive comments/suggestions/ideas/opinions should aim their focus - IMHO. I would like to think Segway LLC could read these forums and perhaps utilize our better ideas as a resource. I believe that will not be the case, as there is so much conflict here.

Rentals, like anything new, will be less than perfect. I tend to think in time however, even HT owners will benefit from rentals. It's a heck of an endeavor to pack and carry or ship an HT if you're traveling - I think it would be great to know that I could rent one when I go visit friends and family in other parts of the country.

Segway LLC needs to do more on behalf of their 'constituency'. I guess it's easier said than done. So many issues, so many locations.

PR/lobbying/regulation is their responsibility (an owner's obligation ends at safe and responsible use). IMHO lobbying and fighting for regulations can be too much of a burden to place on owners/customers for something in such a minority. The HT isn't a bicycle, scooter, motorcycle, car, etc -- it is something completely new.

I don't blame them for trying the "Be our ambassador!" approach, but it doesn't scale well and there is no way to ensure consistency of message. Clearly that goes for training as well. These issues will only grow in scope as more HTs hit the streets, rental or otherwise.

I hope all of our better natures will eventually shine through in these forums, and thanks Kelsey and others for continuing to stay rational amongst the fray.

-T

06-02-2003, 09:18 AM

tsg-

you don't seem to realize that some rental places can and will force bans, so "in time" there isn't anything helpful for owners.

right now, all we can do, is try our best (if we care) to work with these rental places and our cities.

if you have any ideas besides saying segway, llc should do it all, please help.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

pam

06-02-2003, 09:19 AM

quote:PR/lobbying/regulation is their responsibility (an owner's obligation ends at safe and responsible use). IMHO lobbying and fighting for regulations can be too much of a burden to place on owners/customers for something in such a minority. The HT isn't a bicycle, scooter, motorcycle, car, etc -- it is something completely new.

I don't blame them for trying the "Be our ambassador!" approach, but it doesn't scale well and there is no way to ensure consistency of message. Clearly that goes for training as well. These issues will only grow in scope as more HTs hit the streets, rental or otherwise.

This is all just my opinion... I think we all tend to forget that Segway is a SMALL company. We think that because the product they produce is a high-end product that they must be huge. They don't have the resources in personnel to do everything some would like to think of as "their responsibility." - I do believe they're trying.

That said, I don't know that they feel it is "our responsibility" to get involved in the political struggle. They're shown that they're willing to do that - as soon as they know that a political struggle is in the offering. I do think that they originally thought that if they could get the legislation passed at the State level, we would be covered as riders. I'm not sure they thought they'd have to fight the battle in every small town in America.

But they are aware that it only takes a few irresponsible Segway owners to make their work almost impossible. I think our "ambassadorship" is more in the area of using our Segways responsible - and getting involved locally, if that is our natural inclination. After all, the people most likely to listen to us are those that are concerned that our votes might affect them. It's very easy to discount emails and letters from miles and miles away as "they don't know our area, they don't have any local clout, they don't have any local affect to either my job or my economy."

That said, I do think that those of us who are disabled have a voice that transcends community lines and distance.
Pam

AtlSeg

06-02-2003, 09:43 AM

Kelsey and TSG, thanks for your posts. They were breaths of reason and fresh air.

Dick (Richard) in Atlanta

tsg

06-02-2003, 01:42 PM

pt

I will do my best to emulate some of your posts in an effort to reach you.
quote:tsg-

you don't seem to realize that some rental places can and will force bans, so "in time" there isn't anything helpful for owners.

I will counter that you have NO idea what I realize, and claiming such is simply arrogant and ignorant. As you have outlined the risks rentals pose in your posts on this subject, to the point of being redundant, how you can come to that conclusion is beyond my grasp. Since rental people with lose their business if bans come into play, it probably interests them to improve training and other associated processes. As I said in my original post, I think rentals can be a great way to avoid packing and transporting an HT when traveling. That would indeed be helpful for owners.
quote:
right now, all we can do, is try our best (if we care) to work with these rental places and our cities.

No problems with that, except for the "(if we care)" bit. It is obvious that there is an great deal of care shown by all the users of this forum. Passions run deep for the HT and its use.
I will point out the difficulties we face working together in these forums - if it's an indication, it doesn't bode well for working with others of any affiliation.
quote:
if you have any ideas besides saying segway, llc should do it all, please help.

cheers,
pt

In my post, I declared it to be Segway LLC's responsibility (be that to organize or actively work with us) to deal with PR/lobbying etc. I never stated anything close to what you've implied. You are paraphrasing my post inaccurately, and claiming I said they should DO it all.

PR/lobbying/regulation is/was/always will be their responsibility as it is their business, their profits, their product. We can and will certainly help, as we all have a vested interest in what occurs, but they should be setting the tone, organizing us, and defining the messaging to put forth. Regardless of their size as a company, that doesn't change. We are a resource they can leverage, but only if they choose to do so.

"If you have any ideas besides..." All I can take from that is you do not care for my current ideas (even though it appears you don't know what they are), and don't care for my posting them.

I suggest more care be given in verbiage you choose, if it is not your intention to attack/offend/cause unnecessary conflict. We will all progress much farther in our efforts if we can avoid the extraneous arguments and remember that we are all on the same side.

*cheers*

--T

BruceWright

06-02-2003, 03:02 PM

quote:Originally posted by tsg

I don't blame them for trying the "Be our ambassador!" approach, but it doesn't scale well and there is no way to ensure consistency of message. Clearly that goes for training as well. These issues will only grow in scope as more HTs hit the streets, rental or otherwise.

Wow, very important point. I think you are right on with this one. "Be our ambassadors" has got all of us arguing in this topic and the 10 related topics about how to be the best ambassadors.

It reminds me of the warring religious factions in Monty Python's life of Brian. "Follow the sandal!!!!" "No, Infidels! Follow the Gourd!!"

"Ban the Rentals" "No, Infidel! Embrace the rentals!"

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream