i'm going to rent on saturday...

[pt]

here's what i found out about the place called glide at greenlake in seattle, wa. i'm going in person, but did speak with them on the phone. ironically, it was my demo that i gave her 4 months ago that got her interested in these and she started this biz.

i was upfront with her and said i wanted to check them out to make sure they're safe because as an owner it matters to me, i go there at 11am on saturday. i'm also going to chat with folks who rent.

folks, if a rental place comes to your area, i highly suggest this. i also told her why i was worried (see the jack posts).

here's what they do (i'll confirm when i get there).

1. safety video.
2. $500 deposit on card.
3. 30 minutes of hands on training.
4. black key only, yellow if they glide for long enough.
5. the city said no to the park, so they go on sidewalks, parking lots and bike lanes.
6. the contract that folks sign sounds like a standard "waiver of liability" i'll know more when i sign one.

she stressed safety all along, i think that's a good thing, i recall when i met her she was a nice person, that still holds true, she's super nice.

i'm a little distressed about the park thing, but she said the park is really busy and the ht isn't a good fit there so it's good. i'm going to see how or if they worked with the city (details) i'm pretty sure they did not, at least the contacts i have in the city didn't know their plans.

i'll know more soon, should have some video too. i'll then be able to say as an owner and renter how i feel, i think that's fair.

cheers,
pt




======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[opti6600]

pt...here's the other thing you need to do. Get your wife to come in, act like a -complete- novice. "Ooooh! That's the first one I've seen!" Get her to oscillate and everything, and show no association. Make it a complete undercover deal. She even kept her maiden name, so the rental folks won't figure out what's happening.

I just want to see how they act when they deal with the average user.

Best regards,
Jordan

[pt]

what's it like to rent a bike in the same area?

http://www.greggscycles.com/

at greenlake you can rent a beachcruiser bike and ride around the park.
-$5 per hour
-they hold your drivers license
-must be 18 years
-you sign a waiver (whatever you do is your fault)
-there have been accidents, but they're not banned
-no safety video or training.

i'm going to pop in there on saturday as well.

here's what i think. if something does happen on a rental segway ht, unlike bikes, which are common (as are bike accidents) we'll see city wide bans, just a guess. because of the math behind rentals (lots of new people using the ht a lot) it's likely at some point there will be an accident. if someone rents hts, they need to know the power they have, power as far as they truly can make the ht a wonderful experience or they can be the cause of a ban.

i'll know more soon.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[BruceWright]

Most folks renting a bike have ridden a bike before.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[pt]

i was going to go undercover and then i thought, that's not my style, it's not fair, i'm there to check them out on how safe they are, i should tell them. beth is a great glider, it wouldn't be fair not tell them. i might not get the best results, but it seems like the right thing for me to do. stupid conscience :-/

that said, i am going to watch the other gliders and chat with them, that is for sure.

cheers,
pt


quote:Originally posted by opti6600 pt...here's the other thing you need to do. Get your wife to come in, act like a -complete- novice. "Ooooh! That's the first one I've seen!" Get her to oscillate and everything, and show no association. Make it a complete undercover deal. She even kept her maiden name, so the rental folks won't figure out what's happening.

I just want to see how they act when they deal with the average user.

Best regards,
Jordan


======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[pt]

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright Most folks renting a bike have ridden a bike before.

that's 100% true, so...it's interesting topic. how do you safely rent something that "most" people have never used before.

well, i think you train them the best you can. you make them watch the video, do training, wear a helmet, etc...

bicycles and cars had a long time to become ubiquitous before rentals, lawyer, waivers (and video cameras)...so i think no matter how hard one could try to compare, you really can't.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[vpv]

Pt..
Hate to say this.. but you won't accomplish anything other make the rental place make more money with your wasted $$$. If you're really interested in getting the HT safely accepted in your city and not be banned, go the your city council and convice them to NOT ban the HT. I think you have a much better chance than wasting your time and effort on "seeing how and if" this place did the renting correctly or not. The issue is not whether people who Rent out the HT can cause bans. The issue is whether IT should be banned at all regardless of the cause of the ban.

[pt]

vpv-

my city doesn't have any plans to ban and they won't -unless- something happens (that's how they feel at this time). to me, the odds are stacked toward rentals causing an issue (10 hts, new gliders, busy area, not trained as much as owners, renters are different than owners (my opinion)...etc..) it's just math.

i work closely with my city, if i said "please don't ban the ht" they would say "um, it's not phil, well- in the park it is".

this isn't a waste of my time, i can't stop rentals (and why would i, it's their right). what i -can- do is try my best to make sure they're doing it as safe as they can. i'd love for rentals to work out in my area, that means more people may buy hts (less cars, cleaner air, etc..).

if there is ever talk of a ban, you darn right...i'll fight as hard as i can to make sure it doesn't happen. but i will say this, if tons of people are going to get hurt because of rentals, and the only to stop it is a ban- i can see the city banning them and there's nothing anyone will be able to do.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[gotseg]

Any idea if they are associated with LLC in anyway? Or did they just buy the ht's and are now just renting them out? Also, any idea how many ht's they have out for rental?

just curious...

gotseg?

[pt]

gotseg-

they are in no way associated with segway, llc in any way. if they told them they planned to rent the hts they bought, segway would have not sold them to them. these folks bought them and are renting them out.

there is only one place at this time that works directly with segway, nevrland, inc. more in the works.

as far as total number of rentals, i would say at least 100 at this time nationally. it's a smaller number than owners and always will be, but those units will be around more people (different ones too) more places, on a regular basis than all of us put together.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[terryp]

I think I read on one of these threads that the renters get black keys until they have a few hours logged, then can graduate to yellow. Is that so? I'd also like to know the minimum age they'll rent to, say if a family with young kids comes in.

I'm guessing that you'll find that the owners are pretty safety conscious. The recent publicity wasn't about anyone not being properly trained or doing something stupid or causing an injury. As I understand it Green Lake was placed off-limits to Segways simply because some trail users complained, for whatever reason.

I'm afraid I won't be surprised to see the Burke-Gilman and other bike trails become off-limits if a couple complaints are filed, even if totally unjustified. I hope I'm wrong. My Segway would become pretty much useless to me if that happened.

I sent an email to the Parks employee who was on the TV segment Tuesday, politely telling her about the legislation allowing EPAMDs on bike trails, describing the positive reactions I've gotten, comparing their safety with bikes and rollerblades - from my perspective anyway, and offering demos to the department, but I haven't gotten a response yet.

I'll be interested in what you learn Saturday PT, particularly as far as the conditions and potential hazards where the renters are allowed to glide.


Practicing Safe Segs in Seattle

[pt]

terry-

as per my conversation the place in seattle is black key only, unless you have logged in lots of hours, i'll find out more later. as far as the age goes, she said 18 and older, not sure what happens if you want to have your kids come along. i'll find out though. here's my guess, they're allowed with a parent, which of could be bad.

green lake was placed off limits because of multiple complaints from people from multiple parks. if fact there were complaints about one rental company before this one that was gliding around parks, but until now a ban didn't happen. the park officials saw that there would be 10 hts in the park and the rest is bans-ville.

i'm sad to say i think you're right, the burke-gilmam will be off limits soon for anyone on a segway...and then it's just a matter of time for sidewalks and then streets.

any given day you can hold a radar gun on the burke and bikes go over 30 mph on the trail a few feet from pedestrians, but it doesn't matter. when i'm on my bike on the trial, i go fast too.

i'll post more info as i get it. i'm going to talk to these folks, show them the "segway monster video" and explain my concerns, hopefully they just keep it in mind, that's really all i can do.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[vpv]

PT..
If there were 20 OWNERS of the HT in the park at that time, park officials will still be concerned.. someone will still complain and it will still be "bans-ville". So I think the correlation between renting and the resulting ban doesn't exist. It doesn't connect.

You've probably just over-reacted and concerned now that the ban has crept up into your own backyard.. and IMHO.. you're barking at the wrong tree.. you should put your effort to park officials who may not be aware of the good use of Segway.

[BruceWright]

20 owners at a park at the same time?!!? I've never seen more than 3 owners of Segways at the same time, and that was a scheduled meet.

We're talking 20 Segways at the same time every day of the week. What would the adoption habits of the Segway have to be among the general population before that kind of density occurs? Pretty dang high. At that point SO many people would own a Segway that acceptance isn't an issue anymore.

Let's contrast 1 owner of 20 Segways talking to a city council member with 20 owners of 1 Segway petitioning the same council member. More political clout.

So that's why spooking folks with sudden crowds of rented Segways can trigger a ban before we have the political groundswell to stop it.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[pt]

vpv-

what do you -really- think the chances of 20 *owners* all going to the park at the same time? the simple fact is, the hts were banned in the park because of a rental. not owners, a rental company.

if you think i'm concerned about this because it's in my backyard, you bet...i'm also *more* concerned about the vancouver operation that rents hts and doesn't have folks watch a safety video -and- only trains them for 15 minutes.

this is a big big issue that could hurt all of us, i don't see anyone else out there doing anything, i'm trying to work with these rental places to stress safety. to let them know how much power they truly have.

the park officials -are- aware of good uses of the segway ht (i've talked with them) i live in a city with *the most* hts used for city work in the world. do you know that putting 10 hts in the park to go around in circles is not a good use of the ht? i do, and so did they.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[segwayowner]

i think it is a good idea to visit the rental shop... but i also think that you should have somebody go in undercover and test them. even if the person has riden the seg b4, its easy to buck.

DES: Segway owner

[vpv]

pt.. the ban on the park was not caused by renters, it was caused by complainers..

"what do you -really- think the chances of 20 *owners* all going to the park at the same time?" - This might happen one day if you concentrate on the real problem-the complainers..

"putting 10 hts in the park to go around in circles is not a good use of the ht?" People use it for different reasons.. . your good use of your HT is your only good use. Others use it for other good uses. Putting a judgment on how people use their HT is way off..

"i'm trying to work with these rental places to stress safety." - OK. Your doing a commendable job with this point, but let's assume that they do it 101% correctly as far as safety, yet the park officials still ban it????


pt.. believe me.. I understand your concerns.. If it had happened in my own backyard, I would have approached it differently though rather putting the blame of the ban on renters.
Concentrate on the complainers and educate them..

[pt]

>>pt.. the ban on the park was not caused by renters, it was caused by complainers..

nope, that's not true. i spoke with the park officials.

>>"what do you -really- think the chances of 20 *owners* all going to the park at the same time?" - This might happen one day if you concentrate on the real problem-the complainers..

nope again. there -have- been owners that have gone to the park, and the park said "sorry, not here" it did not result in a ban. having a rental place drop 10 people off in a busy park and didn't work with the city to get clearance, that caused the pan.

>>"putting 10 hts in the park to go around in circles is not a good use of the ht?" People use it for different reasons.. . your good use of your HT is your only good use. Others use it for other good uses. Putting a judgment on how people use their HT is way off..

sorry, i am putting a judgement on how some people wanted to use the segway, making $ off people sending them in a busy park without working with the city. that's good for no one, maybe the renters, but that's not good for all the owners, the people in the park or really anyone.

>>"i'm trying to work with these rental places to stress safety." - OK. Your doing a commendable job with this point, but let's assume that they do it 101% correctly as far as safety, yet the park officials still ban it????

the park is a done deal, the renters didn't work with them. it's banned, that won't change. what -i can- do is make sure the next ban isn't on the sidewalk. 10 rentals in a busy area of my city...not sure that's going to work out.

>>pt.. believe me.. I understand your concerns.. If it had happened in my own backyard, I would have approached it differently though rather putting the blame of the ban on renters.
Concentrate on the complainers and educate them..

i am one of the complainers, at least i agree with what the park officials said, 10 rental hts do not belong in a busy park, sorry.

dude, 10 hts don't belong in a busy park. why would i want to change anyone's mind about that, i agree with it!!

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[dexter]

>>If there were 20 OWNERS of the HT in the park at that time, park officials will still be concerned..

True. But before there would be 20 HT owners in the park, there would be 19 HT owners in the park. And before that 17. And before that 16. And when there are enough HT owners to make 20 of them showing up in the park at the same time a happenstance rather than a coincidence, then there will at that time also likely be 20 HT users on the sidewalk, 20 HT users going to the store or Post Office, 20 HT users commuting to work... And before that 19 HT users commuting to work. And before that 18 HT users commuting to work.

And by then the HT won't be nearly as alien. People and legislators will have a chance to see how safe they are, how dangerous they are, maybe have something more than a quick demo ride, and will be in a better place to make a decision for or against banning.

That's different from SUDDENLY putting 20HT users in the park. Users not as experienced (even IF they are trained properly) as the first wave of "ambassadors" are. Users without a $5000 investment in the care of their individual Segway nor a $5000 investment in the potential of having a future of ban-free riding.

I am NOT against Segway rentals. But in discussing them, there IS a difference between renting and owning, and things will likely be very different when "eventually" there are 20HTs trying to ride in the park. It seems to me that the way LarryL described his business would make renting a positive force for Segway. If he is both sending riders RESPOSIBLY out on rented Segways, plus letting the town and local businesses know what he's doing, he's giving an opportunity to see how safely larger groups of Segways can be in our towns.

Like everything else, it is not renting or renters that is bad or good. It's all in the particulars, and in the attitudes and motivations of the people involved. I think pt just wants a chance to observe and possibly influence this new renting outlet, to make sure if people are doing it, it becomes a positive factor instead of a potential negative. That will result in a better experience all around, for owners, renters, and rental businesses.

Dave C.
me: www.idexter.com
work: www.idealjacobs.com
play: www.nyline.org

[dexter]

Or, maybe he just wants to show them his ROBOT DOG! A ROBOT DOG PHILIP!!!

Dave C.
me: www.idexter.com
work: www.idealjacobs.com
play: www.nyline.org

[vpv]

So PT is a complainer :)... You complain that 10 HTs doesn't belong in the park, are you goin to complain too if 10 rented HT go into the sidewalk because it might threaten your commute? just as it had threaten your commute in the park? Is there a double standard here?
I don't know if you really advocate the use of segways anywhere pedestrians are allowed as long as it's within the law....

[pt]

vpv-

i'll complain sure, if it is logical and helps more than hurts.

the sidewalk is different than a park.

the law says you cannot ride hts in a park (actually it does now).

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[AtlSeg]

pt--help me out here--I'm confused. You indicated early on that you wouldn't ride in the park, due to the crowded conditions (at least I think that's what you said). You also said quote:nope again. there -have- been owners that have gone to the park, and the park said "sorry, not here" it did not result in a ban. having a rental place drop 10 people off in a busy park and didn't work with the city to get clearance, that caused the pan.
So, it would seem that Segways weren't allowed before the renters, whether there were signs posted or not??

I've been following your postings on this subject, and you do seem to refine and define your objections as you go along. But what is your MAIN objection here? I'm sincere.... I can see your frustration and (it would appear to me) even anger at this situation. But tell me how this will apply to my world.

BTW, if how many HTs does Seattle currently have for use by public agencies to give it the "title" of having the most in the world?

Dick (Richard) in Atlanta

[emanresu]

The point was made about people having no experience with a Segway, making it different than bike rental. Yes, but you can go out and rent a backhoe or Dozer and nothing is said.

[opti6600]

Yeah, but emanresu...most people don't start running around with a bulldozer in a park! Although...it could have its funny points...

[pt]

quote:Originally posted by AtlSeg pt--help me out here--I'm confused. You indicated early on that you wouldn't ride in the park, due to the crowded conditions (at least I think that's what you said).

that is correct, i am going to the rental place to check them out. i'm not going actually a segway, just go through how they train people. they do not allow people to ride in the park, only the sidewalks and surrounding areas near the park now.

quote:Originally posted by AtlSegSo, it would seem that Segways weren't allowed before the renters, whether there were signs posted or not??

the park department didn't have an issue with 1-2 *owners* going to the park, they were simply warned and asked not to. -now- there is a sign because a rental place was having 10 people glide around. 1 owner needed to be warned is diffferent than a rental shop with 10 rentals that planned to have people there all day / everyday.

quote:Originally posted by AtlSegI've been following your postings on this subject, and you do seem to refine and define your objections as you go along. But what is your MAIN objection here? I'm sincere.... I can see your frustration and (it would appear to me) even anger at this situation. But tell me how this will apply to my world.

main objection: work with the rental place, let them know that i am an owner and concerned. i am going to tell them about the place in vancouver that rents without showing the safety video, etc..

how does this apply to your world? if a rental place opens in your area, you can expect some type of ban -if- they do not do things properly.

quote:Originally posted by AtlSegBTW, if how many HTs does Seattle currently have for use by public agencies to give it the "title" of having the most in the world?

they have 10 segway hts in use and they are doubling the fleet to 20. some other city could be using more, but have not public stated it like seattle has.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[AtlSeg]

quote:the park department didn't have an issue with 1-2 *owners* going to the park, they were simply warned and asked not to. -now- there is a sign because a rental place was having 10 people glide around. 1 owner needed to be warned is diffferent than a rental shop with 10 rentals that planned to have people there all day / everyday.
It may be semantics, but whether they "warn" 1-2 owners (or "borrowers" or whatever) or "ban" with signs, to me it is still the same--they didn't want any Segways (1 or 2 or 10) in the park, and they still don't now--just have signs saying what they verbalized before.

quote:they have 10 segway hts in use and they are doubling the fleet to 20. some other city could be using more, but have not public stated it like seattle has.Don't know the numbers in Atlanta, but I'm pretty sure that when you add what the Atlanta Ambassadors have (btw, the Ambassadors are NOT police!) to the Segways used by the police at the airport, I strongly suspect we exceed 10 here. Just a clarification.

Dick (Richard) in Atlanta

[segwayowner]

what did you see pt?

DES: Segway owner

[pt]

quote:Originally posted by AtlSeg It may be semantics, but whether they "warn" 1-2 owners (or "borrowers" or whatever) or "ban" with signs, to me it is still the same--they didn't want any Segways (1 or 2 or 10) in the park, and they still don't now--just have signs saying what they verbalized before.

i spoke with the park today they said they didn't have a problem with a couple owners and warning them, they *did* have a problem with the rental place having 10 segway hts there and they needed to make it clear. when i was there today, the park hired someone to guard the park from hts and was passing out a paper that says the hts are banned from sidewalks now as well, in the parks and bike lanes. the parks department is pushing for a larger ban it seems.

quote:Originally posted by AtlSeg Don't know the numbers in Atlanta, but I'm pretty sure that when you add what the Atlanta Ambassadors have (btw, the Ambassadors are NOT police!) to the Segways used by the police at the airport, I strongly suspect we exceed 10 here. Just a clarification.

okay, seattle has the most segways that have been publicly reported. atlanta might have more, could you find out for sure? thanks.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[RWC]

quote: But what is your MAIN objection here? I'm sincere.... I can see your frustration and (it would appear to me) even anger at this situation. But tell me how this will apply to my world.

1. Segway riders' freedom to ride on sidewalks and streets is tenuous.
2. Most of us want as much freedeom as we can get.
3. Things that are restricted have various level of [u]enforced</u> restriction.
4. As real or perceived danger or intrusion by Segways go up, so does impetus to restrict Segways, both in word (signs) and action (enforcement).
5. There are people who very much want to restrict Segways. They would like to have evidence to support their case and they will capitalize on it. They most definitely will. That evidence does not have to occur in their own town.
6. There are people whose careers are in part about preventing dangers and intrusions within cities. They respond to real evidence and political pressure. They have the power to restrict and enforce.
7. As the number of Segways in a visible and already crowded area goes up, so does the possibility of increased real or perceived danger and intrusion.
8. Riders with less experience and/or care are more liable to be dangerous or intrusive, real or perceived.
9. Owners usually exhibit more care in using their possession and in preserving their long term freedoms of use. Someone who spent $5k and is aware of pending restrictions on their abiltiy to use their segway will _probably_ be more careful than someone who invested $25, has a low perceived probability of damaging the Segway, and is unaware of pending restrictions (or is aware of them and does not think they will impact them in the future). They will _probably_ be less careful, mindful of their real or perceived impressions they leave in their wake.
10. Owners usually have more expereince and skill than renters.
11. Sudden changes are noticeable. As things are more noticed and under scrutiny, they are more subject to modification and restriction.
12. Rental businesses often create a sudden influx of things they rent.
13. Making profit often leads to taking risks. This isn't necessarily a devious, hurtful thing. You can't make a profit as easily if you make a Segway renter go through all the training we went through, nor practice in a relatively private space prior to going public. You risk not being able to open your business where you want to if you go to the city ahead of time and ask for permission or their input. A business can't make as much money (or maybe any money) if you put real or perceived safety and low intrusion BEFORE making profit. (Due to overhead or less of an appealing fun-factor)
14. A business's decisions can have a much larger public impact than an individual's decisions.
15. A business has every right to try to make profit and not to consider real or perceived danger or intrusion as much as many of us do.
16. We have every right to motivate a business to give more consideration to our needs.
Etc.
Etc.


This will apply to any city or locale, to "my/your world".
It is in MY/YOUR INTEREST, as someone who wants as much freedom with their Segway as possible, to limit the risks that other Segway users will probably take knowingly or otherwise... risks to themselves, others, and hence to our freedom to glide.

Take care, R.

"The best way to control your cow or sheep is to give them a large spacious meadow" - Suzuki Roshi

[RWC]

Grand Opening of Seaway, SAN DIEGO'S FIRST SEGWAY RENTAL BIZ.

It opened today in Belmont Park, an amusement park that has been there for decades. I called and they said you can use it in an area they have set aside within the park. It sounds like a controlled space. I asked if once I got the hang of it, could I head out onto the Boardwalk? They said no, "not now, you have to ride in our space set aside for Segways".

This is good news. Belmont Park is located right on the beach with a multi-mile boardwalk along part of its west edge. If they allowed novice riders to venture out in public in the neighborhood it could be TERRIBLE. It is dense with beach partying crowds. The Boardwalk is already a war zone of walkers, dogs, bikes, skaters, joggers, etc. and has a politicised history. Just riding on the boardwalk could percipitate a ban in that neighborhood at least.

Seaway sounds like an ideal location. I think that most of the initial appeal is just to experience the HT technology... to see it and try it. Of course it's great to glide along different kinds of territory, to actually travel, but the first-timers I think are after the experience.

Their ad says "Come see what everyone is talking about... Ride the Segway HT today!"

I'll swing by there later in the week just to see how they do what they do, more out of curiosity than being protective. Had they said they would let people glide unsupervised in the Mission Beach area (or maybe anywhere in the park) I would have been down there this morning.

I don't think motivating a business to be careful is "Brown Shirt" activity, especially now. Their focus on near term business needs can easily erode what freedoms we have today, tenuous as they are. These freedoms are also enjoyed by the business and in the long term will serve them well.

Take care, R.

"The best way to control your cow or sheep is to give them a large spacious meadow" - Suzuki Roshi

[pt]

i think that's a great way to start out with rentals, thanks rwc!

cheers,
pt




======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[emanresu]

quote:Originally posted by opti6600

Yeah, but emanresu...most people don't start running around with a bulldozer in a park! Although...it could have its funny points...
That's what I was thinking, and I have yet to see a sign at a park entrance saying "No Bulldozers After Dusk"...

[ftropea]

There are no signs because people aren't bringing their bulldozers to the park. When they start doing that, emanresu, you'll see the signs :)

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)