rentals and "andrew the segway monster" video

[pt]

i sent andrew an email, the fella who make the video titled "andrew the segway monster" that showed a safety shutdown. here's the scoop.

first, he's a really nice guy...loves the segway. here's what he said:

"It was my first day on a Segway and I was really excited to see the limits of it. You can imagine 2 years of hype building into this moment. I have it bad for Ginger. She's hot".

more stuff.

1. this was a rental place in vancouver. it seems "saber" might know something we don't, these were not owners, this was not owner training, these were rentals from what andrew said.

2. the instructor was teaching stopping:

"The exercise we were doing was to teach aggressive stopping. He wanted me to come at him as fast as I could (with the black key) and then stop as fast as I could. It was probably my 5th attempt, and he wanted me to be more aggressive each time. I wasn't trying to overdo it but I definitely was trying to put myself in a position that was not natural, i.e. really letting the machine hold me. I think it did work correctly".

he told me he weighs 225 lbs and have size 12 shoes and has a few theories why it did a safety shutdown, all sound reasonable to me.

i invited him to the forum, hopefully he'll pop in and everyone can ask him questions or whatever.

in closing he said...

"Great work you are doing on the site. I'll have a video for the multimedia section in a few days: "How to ride no hands, one foot", I have it mastered now".

so we can expect another video soon to chat about.

cheers,
pt




======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[Race3]

thanks.

[pt]

i'm guessing this is the rental place, i'll try and confirm:
http://www.fhtsc.com

here's what this site said about it:
http://www.voltage-ev.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=7&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

"For $10, you get to watch an incredibly dull safety video and spend about 15 minutes learning the ropes oÂ*n a Segway in their small space. OÂ*nce you complete the training, the rental rate is 33 cents/minute or $20/hour. They oÂ*nly allow "yellow key" speeds (about 13 km/h) for rentals, but it is certainly enough to get a feel for the machine".

so you get 15 minutes of training in a small area on the ht according to this site. then you're free to go 8 mph in vancouver.

cheers,
pt




======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[fredkap]

Good thing they stress non-agressive safe segging. ;)

Fred

[BruceWright]

Sounds like they need to train their trainers better, or hire ones which care more about safety.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[Sid Viscous]

Do not expect 4 or 5 hours of rental time riding around to qualify as training by Segway so you can get your machine.

I don't know if their people are Segway "train the trainer" trained, but I doubt it. I suspect that Segway is not happy with this situation either, and I don't believe it is sanctioned by Segway.

[pt]

well-

segways aren't sold to canada (yet) if you tell segway you plan to rent them they won't sell them to you. training is more than 15 minutes for anyone (god gawd 15 minutes!!) and i don't think the rental place in vancouver has a segway trained trainer either.

my demonstrations are sometimes 20 minutes, and that's 15 minutes of training not on the ht and 5 minutes of riding in a controlled area, on a black key with me walking along side with one hand on the ht.

yikes.

cheers,
pt




======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[mellenger]

It's me, andrew. The so called Segway Monster.

I'd like to clear some stuff up.

First of all i don't know that Saber Salinas guy. He wasn't there and his girlfriend's husband was the one who did the filming and the editing.

Second: I absolutly was not trying to fall off it but i was trying to find the limits of it, I participate in other balance sports, bicycling, skateboarding, snowboarding so I am used to falling down and i feel more comfortable when i know the limits of the tech. It wasn't a big deal to fall and I assumed it was fairly normal till jack later told me that was the first fall he had ever seen.

I really appreciate the screenshot with the diagram overlay. Thanks. Just for the engineering types. I'm 6'2", 225lbs, size 12 feet.

pt got it right, we rented the segways from Jack at Segway Rentals in Vancouver. He drove out to meet us with 4 of them and did the tutorial. We didn't get to watch the video and I think that would have made a big difference.

I was back at the shop yesterday and I got to see the video, I love it. It totally made me believe in the Utopian society that is coming and my part in it ;) . After that 16min assault on my convictions we headed off out of the store in a straight line, totally blank-faced and mumbling "Riding a Segway is one of the coolest thing I will ever do" over and over to ourselves.

Ben is just finishing up a longer cut of our segway experience. It should be ready in a few days.

andrew

========
http://m3mm.com

[pam]

Welcome, Andrew! If you love the Segway, you'll enjoy being around this group!
Pam

[pt]

wow!

welcome andrew! i'm really glad you joined, lots of folks will have questions. i'm pretty sure you are now the most watched segway rider ever in this forum.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[BruceWright]

Welcome Andrew!

"Riding a Segway is one of the coolest thing I will ever do"

That get's my vote as the dumbest thing Dean Kamen has ever said!


Glad you had fun, and weren't hurt.

After that video, did you ride around Vancouver? Were the areas dense or sparse with pedestrians?

You might read around here that some of us are concerned because in Seattle a Segway renter that didn't get clearance got all Segways banned from a park.

What's your opinion of your rental experience in Vancouver?

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[wheels]

quote:Originally posted by BruceWright

Welcome Andrew!



I second the 'Welcome". Thanks for answering our questions. I think Bruce is correct that 'What happens in public, belongs to the public'.
If you are intimidated by Jack, I suggest that you email Bruce Wright and state your approval of his uploading the video. I would like to study it some more.
I also had a similar happening but didn't go down.
(pt: I DIDN'T DO IT INTENIONALLY).

Is there provision to glide in "Stanley Park"?

One way..... SEGWAY ! !

[ftropea]

Wow, I'm just getting a chance to catch up here...

So this wasn't an owner's training - it was a Rental Co. 15 min job.. wow is right.

Andrew, welcome to the forum and thanks for posting.

I appreciate your honesty. Some members questioned whether or not you intentionally pushed the Seg to those extreme limits. As you indicate, you were indeed trying to find the limits - and you succeeded!

That clears that up.

I'm still for understanding the mechanics of it, of course. We should continue that chat in another thread.

However, I'm now even more concerned about the "big picture" for us Seg owners. If rental places like this outfit in Canada and the one in pt's backyard (Seattle) don't shape up soon - we won't have to worry about these problems anymore this time next year.

Has this changed anyone's outlook on this whole rental thing?

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

[pt]

wheels-

i think we have bigger issues now, but what part of the following didn't you read:

-"It was my first day on a Segway and I was really excited to see the limits of it".
-"I wasn't trying to overdo it but I definitely was trying to put myself in a position that was not natural".

so here's the deal-- he was 100% intentionally pushing the limits in an unnatural way, that's what he said. there was an unintentional result, it fell over. based on how he was trained (without video and questionable training methods from jack) i'm glad he wasn't hurt, he didn't know what was going to happen, but he did know he was pushing it as per jack and as per his note.

let's all agree on that at least?

we have way bigger problems, jack asked the video to get pulled, it appears folks aren't getting proper training.

egad.

i so want to figure out the physics of this (that's way more fun), but folks-- **** like this can stop us dead in our tracks.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[LarryL]

Any rental company who does training like that should be shut down. At Fun Transport, we stress safety all the time. We even turned down renting one for a week long convention becasue we couldn't personally do the training. The guy did find someone else who just shipped him a Segway for the money.

I agree that if this type of thing happens, we will all have problems. That's why standards are set and we will ALWAYS follow them and NEVER make an exception.

Safety MUST come first for all of us if we want to continue Gliding.

Larry

[pt]

i think larry is one of the most "stand up" guys and i admire everything he's doing. larry, if there's anything we (or i) can do, let us all know. we need you out there.

in fact *that* is why i'm so worried folks, why should you or i, or larry be punished because some dude named jack in canada.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[LarryL]

Thank you PT. We do our best.

Good news should be announced next week about our Fun Transport company which will help everyone - I hope.

Larry

[mellenger]

Okay i'm starting to sound like a broken record but:

It was my choice to ride it. My choice to operate it the way i did. I fell on it, I know it's not magic, it's tech. and it has limits. I don't think any rental place would have refused me from renting one, how was Jack supposed to know that it would shut off. Also I don't really look 225lbs either, he might have instructed me different if i looked closer to the max weight.


andrew

========
http://m3mm.com

[ftropea]

I hate to chime in with "me too"s but - me too!

I think LarryL and Fun Transport is trying to do the rental biz right. We've learned of at least two *other* rental places which seem to be doing it wrong.

Bottom line - I'm more concerned about our long term rights to Seg. I'm less concerned about little companies making some dough off the Segway's novelty factor. So if I, or other passionate owners, seem to be getting a little defensive - well - we are! :)

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

[clm]

Folks, just a word of moderation before we get the cremation fires burning too bright.

What happened with Andrew happened in training - off the road and under controled conditions. We might not like it, but many, many people consider it quite proper behavior to explore limits of an activity in training, and consider it ok to crash in training.

The idea is to do it now in a low risk environment rather than have it happen on the road later.

Andrew said "I am use to falling down" and accepted the risks. He is not a victim here. (Other than this quote I'll let Andrew as a member speak for himself. Welcome to the board, Andrew)

I do realize our concern here is not to scare the fearful banner type petty officials. But not all Americans are freedom loving and thus we will have to deal with them. This concern I share, but we can't pretend that Segways do not fall over and get away with it forever. They do, and so what?

Chris

[pt]

andrew-

it was jack's choice to not show you a safety video or instruct you properly. he didn't like the outcome and asked you take a video down? that doesn't sound right to me.

i can tell you how jack would know if the ht would shut down...being a proper trainer. he's not, or at least not in this case.

you didn't do anything wrong in fact, you did what the instructor told you to.

jack didn't do the right thing here (maybe he did, but it doesn't seem so)...and i really want to make sure he doesn't get them banned in canada or encourage bans in the usa.

this is a big issue for everyone.

cheers,
pt


======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[ftropea]

Actually CLM, I disagree with that..

At training, the only extreme a good trainer wants you to experience is "speed limiter". You should never hang over the handle bars..

One thing I remember a Segway trainer telling our class was that if you feel the speed limiter engaging, you shouldn't continue to lean forward.

Also, about "blame" : There is "fault" on many levels here...

- poor training.

- intent to push limits.

- renter's mentality (it's not their Seg - they don't have $5K vested - they may, or may not care, about the interests of Seg owners. For what it's worth, Andrew says he cares.. ) - they have to squeeze in a lifetime's worth of experience in the 20 minute window.. maximize it.. supersize it..

You say: "The idea is to do it now in a low risk environment rather than have it happen on the road later."

So let me understand.. Do you think we should all go out into a controlled environment, have someone spot us and "try" to face plant on a Seg? Would you please elaborate?

When you push the limits on things - what happens if you're successful? You realize those limits. I'm not sure this is the best way to experience a Seg.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

[pt]

clm-

this isn't what i would call "training" it's in a parking lot, the people never got to see a safety video. low risk enviroment? that parking lot most likely wasn't even jack's property.

yikes.

here's what i call it-

the quickest way for the rental place to get their money from people.

you are right, andrew was not a victim (he's lucky) he could have got hurt. jack can get a national ban on the ht before it's even sold because of these rental practices.

that's the big deal. yah, hts will fall over. that's not the issue here any longer.

cheers,
pt

quote:Originally posted by clm

Folks, just a word of moderation before we get the cremation fires burning too bright.

What happened with Andrew happened in training - off the road and under controled conditions. We might not like it, but many, many people consider it quite proper behavior to explore limits of an activity in training, and consider it ok to crash in training.

The idea is to do it now in a low risk environment rather than have it happen on the road later.

Andrew said "I am use to falling down" and accepted the risks. He is not a victim here. (Other than this quote I'll let Andrew as a member speak for himself. Welcome to the board, Andrew)

I do realize our concern here is not to scare the fearful banner type petty officials. But not all Americans are freedom loving and thus we will have to deal with them. This concern I share, but we can't pretend that Segways do not fall over and get away with it forever. They do, and so what?

Chris




======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[vpv]

Renting the Segways has nothing to do with bannings!! What happened to Andrew could have happened to PT or any other owners who tries to "find the limit." Little or no trainings on Segways has nothing to do with Segways being banned either. Banning for banning's sake is the greater issue than renting Segways and I suggest that we concentrate our efforts on these.

I asked a certified Segway trainer during my training whether mandatory training will be required in the future if these become commonplace. He indicated that it will not be.

So non-training or Renting is a NON-issue here..

[pt]

vpv-

but rentals -do- have something to do with bannings. in fact, in my city a rental company caused a ban in a park.

you are correct, what andrew did could have happened to anyone. but, andrew never got to see the safety video, a properly trained person would (rental or owner). little or no training -does- have something to do with bannings, the more people with little or no training will have a higher rate of incidents, want an example, watch the video called "andrew the segway monster". the trainer did a poor job, didn't show the video. if you were a town official would you be okay with that?

banning for banning's sake is a big issue, it's a little easier to defend when people are getting proper training and there is no accidents, it gets harder when people who are training people properly or working with the city are causing incidents and bannings in parks.

at some point training might not be mandatory, but until that happens it's a rumor. we need to deal with the current issues.

it is an issue, there's a big big picture here that includes renting -and- bannings and everything else. i've been working with many people and my city...the rental issues are the quickest way to a ban, you don't need to agree with me, the facts can and will speak for themselves.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[mzokc]

Andrew, Thanks for joining and sharing. It's good to know the limits of the HT, and your video shows it clearly.

It's critical that anyone crossing the road double checks for cars. Your sudden forward-backward could occur if a car appears from no where.

May all your future glides be safe ones!

Mark

[toybuilder]

Andrew -- I'd love to find out what you had intended to do in that stop. Were you trying to keep your body in one place? Or trying to stop in the shortest distance possible? As you were at the peak of your stopping and were leaning back quite a ways, were you then trying to shift your body forward to be upright again? It's had to tell just looking at the frame-by-frame, and what better than to ask the man?

Thanks!

http://www.pasadenasegway.com/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).

[vpv]

PT.. it is utterly absurd to blame the ban on Segway users Period!(whether bought or rented or provided from/by LLC or some other biz). You know as well as every other Segway users here know that all bans were initiated by misinformed complainers or anti-seggers and were enacted by misinformed lawmakers who based their decisions on misunderstanding, fear and mistrust.. All these discussions in this board revolved around reversing all these unfair activities of bannings (email, showup on city councils meetings, etc). It seems like your opinion about renting Segways just shows the opposite of what everyone here wants to accomplish in allowing Segways where pedestrians are allowed. It's just mind boggling to see a double standard here in this forum..

[pt]

vpv-

you're 100% wrong, this ban was because the park make a -smart- decision that even i agree with, i think it's safe to say i'm informed about the segway.

bans are not going to be reversed, that seldomly if ever happens. all we can do is hope rentals do not cause -more- bans. read my posts, the park department added more restrictions (sidewalks near the park).

you need to look at the facts. as per the park department, this rental company -caused- a ban. whether it's a right or wrong in your eyes, it is what happened.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[PoloAk]

Children, quite bickering. SF didn't ban Segways for the same reason that the park in WA banned them. It's incredibly subjective why anything is banned.

Kelsey

[vpv]

I'm not arguing who caused the ban. My point is all bans are misguided, even in parks. And for you to agree with the ban is also misguided or at least a double standard.... I just hope you don't agree that it's a "smart decision" to ban Segways on sidewalks too, would you? I rest the case...

[pt]

it's takes a smart woman to point out the obvious.

bans can and will be caused by many things, we know how 1 happened in sf and how 1 happened in seattle, wa in a park (and surrounding sidewalks as of today).

i'm trying to do my best to work with the park (who said the ban was because of *rentals*) and the rental place.

some folks really need to look at facts and what has happened in 1 short week here.

jeez.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

[BruceWright]

San fransisco banned something they never even saw.

Seattle banned something they saw too many of!



I think vpv does have a point, pt, which I said in another thread as well (we seem to have so many about this same subject).

The point is, OKAY they're banned. What do you do now?


Do you address the rental company or the city? Or both?

If you could show that Segways aren't a threat, and the city accepted that, then the ban would be lifted.

On the other hand, if you could show that Segways in private hands are safer than rented ones, perhaps the city will outlaw the rental business.

On the other hand, either strategy may backfire. You may need lobbying help from private businesses. Or you may find that by being in bed with them that all Segways get tarred with the same brush.


-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

[pt]

read my other post bruce, in the other forum.

i go over all of what i've done and may do.

cheers,
pt



======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com