You Won't Fall Over - Jack [Archive]

god1138

05-29-2003, 02:16 PM

Ummm.. I'm sorry to say this. really, if I offend anyone by saying so, forgive me.

What a jacka**.

Ummm... yeah, he must've tried REALLY HARD to make this happen. This is certainly NOT a normal operation of the Segway. I had a few slips and trips before I learned the extents of the machine and how far I could go with it, but boy I learned quickly. I take it the young man in the video learned pretty quickly too. That was EXTRANEOUS limit-pushing behavior if I've ever seen it. Do not try this at home. Do not try this anywhere. It's pretty obvious that when you push the limits of anything, you go home with asphalt between your teeth.

There is only so much the Segway can do... and this is a shining example of misusing the Segway (and of course, the extension of that theory, the chaos that occurs in aftermath of errant behavior on the part of the rider)...

Umm... like I said, sorry if I offended anyone by my initial reaction.

-Robert
"BORN TO GLIDE"

racerxoffl

05-29-2003, 02:17 PM

I have and 3 knee surgeries and think it could improve my lifestyle.
*HAD

Upon reviewing in full screen it still seem to be an accident.

05-29-2003, 02:25 PM

racerxoffl-

i think it's clear to most resonable people that he did that on purpose, perhaps after the instructor "pushed him". we'd need to see the whole tape to really know. but if you asked me to do the same thing on purpose, i would need to do what he did. back up, smirk- say "yah okay", lean almost over the handlbars, feet almost off the platform, lean too far back, push too far forward.

the ht did a safety shutdown as it should.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

Race3

05-29-2003, 02:25 PM

I'm sorry, but I do not believe this was intentional. Maybe his feet were not in the proper position, but you can not tell from this video... because they are blocked from view by the wheel. Also, he is not going that fast and simply tried to stop quickly. What exactly is extreme about that? And I do not see any 'safety shutdown' as PT indicated because it kept rolling backwards even after he fell off. Then it shutdown.

Again, I think the segway is amazing and I want to get one. Just curious about what went wrong in this situation. It looks to me like he was holding the handlebar too close to himself.

hubbahbubbah

05-29-2003, 02:28 PM

quote:Originally posted by racerxoffl

I have and 3 knee surgeries and think it could improve my lifestyle.
*HAD

Upon reviewing in full screen it still seem to be an accident.

The Segway can be a bit rough on your knees, I hear, as there are no shock-absorbers, aside from the air in the wheels.

The video seems pretty legit to me too... though I don't know if it's a Segway instructor -- I thought they generally teach indoors.

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

ftropea

05-29-2003, 02:28 PM

Hey Race3,

I think my question got lost in the mix..

Which state do you live in? Would you like to try out a Segway HT for yourself?

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

BruceWright

05-29-2003, 02:32 PM

I haven't seen it, so I really can't say.

But the Segway owners here who have seen it say it's someone acting crazy and outside of the normal use of a Segway, and folks without Segways are watching it and wondering what the kid might have done wrong.

I think it might just be someone doing something that folks without Segways don't know is wrong to do.

Yes, they CAN fall over. And I could tell you 10 different ways to make them fall over, all of which someone wouldn't necessarily know before training.

But I've only layed mine down once, and I was uninjured, standing up straddling the handlebar when I hit the ground at less than 1 mile per hour. To someone who didn't know how to use a Segway, it would look like it just shut off.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

hubbahbubbah

05-29-2003, 02:33 PM

quote:Originally posted by pt

if you couldn't tell, he planned and tried -really- hard to fall over and he did.

cheers,
pt

pt,

It doesn't look to me like he planned to fall over -- it looks like he was encouraged to push the limits of the HT, but instead he went right over them. How can you tell he planned to fall? How can you be so sure?

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

05-29-2003, 02:35 PM

maybe i'm watching a differnt video hubbah, he tried twice to "fall over".

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

clm

05-29-2003, 02:35 PM

quote:Originally posted by Race3

I'm sorry, but I do not believe this was intentional. Maybe his feet were not in the proper position, but you can not tell from this video... because they are blocked from view by the wheel. Also, he is not going that fast and simply tried to stop quickly. What exactly is extreme about that? And I do not see any 'safety shutdown' as PT indicated because it kept rolling backwards even after he fell off. Then it shutdown.

Again, I think the segway is amazing and I want to get one. Just curious about what went wrong in this situation. It looks to me like he was holding the handlebar too close to himself.

I think I got it figured...

First the guy got really radically back, maybe 40 degrees from vertical.

Now there are two way to come out of this. Like his first attempt you can rise up vertical at the end such as to be upright as the segway comes to a stop. This is a move much like stopping on skis and the correct way to do this maneuver.

Secondly, you can lay into it and stay there. Then the Segway reverses direction and drives up underneath you. Try this yourself by rolling back and forth and you'll find that the reverse speed limiter will eventually growl at you for going too fast in reverse.

In the video, it looks to me like he went too fast in reverse for just a moment, but apparently long enough for the Segway to shutdown. The wheels never broke traction, but the Segway was unweighted at that moment and was accelerating backwards very rapidly.

In summary, I think this kid achieved a condition where the Segway thought it was a runaway and did a safety shutdown.

Chris

fredkap

05-29-2003, 02:38 PM

He pushed things to the extremes beyond what the Seg could handle. He may have been going faster than 12.5 before he did an emergency stop...the amazing thing is that he didn't fall backwards...the torque that saved him from falling backwards was more than his Seg could stabilize AND he did a gentle fall forward albeit his knuckles.

Fred

hubbahbubbah

05-29-2003, 02:40 PM

quote:Originally posted by pt

maybe i'm watching a differnt video hubbah, he tried twice to "fall over".

cheers,
pt

To me, he looks like a nervous newbie practicing a hard stop, not trying for a fall. We *are* watching the same video, so I'm not sure how you can be so definite in your interpretation.

After his first stop, the rider says "Oh yeah, I got it." Does he mean 'oh,yeah, i've figured out how to make it fall" ??? When the off-camera voice says, 'you gotta let those arms out, you won't fall over,' do you think he's instructing the rider about how to fall over better??
Perhaps... but I wish you would explain an interpretation that seems counter-intuitive to me after careful review of the tape.

Hubbah

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

Race3

05-29-2003, 02:40 PM

Frank, thanks, I'm in the northeast and have already had the opportunity to try the segway. really cool.

clm

05-29-2003, 02:43 PM

What's the problem people?

Can't young people be allowed to fall? This guy was not hurt!

Jeez, You ever watch a FOOTBALL GAME? People fall and it is not the end of the world.

Go take some Prozac before you go and BAN all our freedoms of movement.

Chris

stevew

05-29-2003, 02:43 PM

Actually for how hard he tried to 'crash' it was a fairly graceful "fall". He basically overshoots backwards after a hard stop and pushes the handlebar all the way to ground contact where he skins his knuckle, steps off , and the ht stops right where he left it, well maybe sliding back a couple of inches. He never actually falls himself. At least this Darwin nominee is wearing a helmet!

BruceWright

05-29-2003, 02:46 PM

Again, I have to point out that all the Segway owners say "what an idiot", and the folks without Segways say "what did he do wrong?"

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

clm

05-29-2003, 02:52 PM

I own a Segway

Chris

stevew

05-29-2003, 02:55 PM

I also wonder who organized this "training" There are quite a few people on HTs there in an empty parking lot area. Most of the riders are behaving reasonably, safely exploring the HT's envelope, then there is This guy. I sure hope this wasn't sponsored by LLC!

05-29-2003, 03:08 PM

1. "you won't fall over" says instructor.
2. "yah, okay" in a sacastic tone says andrew mellenger- contributor of video to computer overclocker / hareware site.
3. he smirks, backs up, feet on the back of the platform, leans over the handbars to accelrate, stops quickly, leans back at an extreme angle, leans forward at an exteme angle.
4. safety shutdown.

this is covered in the video, the manual, etc...

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

racerxoffl

05-29-2003, 03:09 PM

Race3

I think the people here should know better then either of us, but I agree his feet look planted and I see no smirk before the crash, only after.

hubbahbubbah

05-29-2003, 03:16 PM

clm

05-29-2003, 03:21 PM

Let's just say that this youth subscribes to a more "Air Force" like mentality of training. The desire here is to find the limits in training, under controlled circumstances so that your first time to experience something won't be on the road. The trainee is simply trying to understand what he can do in an emergency stop, and how to do it properly. Obviously he is willing to risk scuffed knuckles in the process. To him scuffed knuckles are likely no big deal.

Now the student's only error was hang out behind the Segway after the stop. That's it. It is clear the instructor was not aware of what this would do. I am not sure he is aware today as to what the student did wrong. Perhaps he should have "gotten trained" before training others.

Racerxoffl, thanks for posting the video. I learned from it to always stand up at the finish of a panic stop. I learned that I risk a Segway shutdown if I let the the Segway race backward too fast, even for a moment.

Chris

racerxoffl

05-29-2003, 03:29 PM

quote:Originally posted by pt

1. "you won't fall over" says instructor.
2. "yah, okay" in a sacastic tone says andrew mellenger- contributor of video to computer overclocker / hareware site.
3. he smirks, backs up, feet on the back of the platform, leans over the handbars to accelrate, stops quickly, leans back at an extreme angle, leans forward at an exteme angle.
4. safety shutdown.

this is covered in the video, the manual, etc...

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

EXCUSE ME!!!
WHAT IS WRONG WITH OVERCLOCKING!
I would assume most segway consumers are technology-advanced people interested in our (yes our we all live together) environment.
Everyone is looking for more BANG for their buck, that is why sites like http://www.hardocp.com/ exist.
I am SURE they have more people reading their site this very second.
Please don’t insult the intellectuals.

Just because they have great information and expand horizons doesn’t make them bad people.

AND

The first time I heard of the segway was on a morning talk show I’m guessing about 2 years ago. The person being interviewed claimed to be the inventor and I’m almost sure he referred to it as the most stable platform you could stand on.

All you replied was this was out of its abilities. Making its inventor a liar

BruceWright

05-29-2003, 03:33 PM

I'm almost sure you're overreacting.

Kamen wouldn't say that. The most stable platform you can stand on? So more stable than a block of wood? That's not how the Segway works, and it's not how Dean Kamen describes it.

So, it may be you, my easily upset friend, who are the liar liar pants on fire.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

05-29-2003, 03:38 PM

what are you talking about? there's nothing wrong with overclocking. i have and will clockup my computers (and have even uplclocked my pdas).

i don't think dean kamen said "it's the most stable platform you could stand on" he most likely said it the most stable self-balancing platform, or the first of it's kind...something like that.

the ht isn't magic, you can fall off one if you don't follow the rules, training, the video and the manual clearly show that.

cheers,
pt

quote:Originally posted by racerxoffl EXCUSE ME!!!
WHAT IS WRONG WITH OVERCLOCKING!
I would assume most segway consumers are technology-advanced people interested in our (yes our we all live together) environment.
Everyone is looking for more BANG for their buck, that is why sites like http://www.hardocp.com/ exist.
I am SURE they have more people reading their site this very second.
Please don’t insult the intellectuals.

Just because they have great information and expand horizons doesn’t make them bad people.

AND

The first time I heard of the segway was on a morning talk show I’m guessing about 2 years ago. The person being interviewed claimed to be the inventor and I’m almost sure he referred to it as the most stable platform you could stand on.

All you replied was this was out of its abilities. Making its inventor a liar

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

05-29-2003, 03:45 PM

i uplocked my robot dog.

A ROBOT DOG!!!

there, i had to say that before bruce did.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

BruceWright

05-29-2003, 03:47 PM

uplocked? Or upClocked?

You overclocked your robot dog? Does that make it a WATCH-dog?

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

05-29-2003, 03:50 PM

that too.

the robot dog has been clocked, locked and i've taken it's head off and put another one on it before as well.

actually, if you're in to programming the aibo platform is quite a bit of fun. tons of hacks, community sites and neat things to try out.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

Saber Salinas

05-29-2003, 04:05 PM

I know there is a tendency to want to defend the Segway here...this is a Segway forum...but this is a little overboard isn't it? Not admitting that the Segway was at fault and not the driver being instructed on "how to avoid a car that has suddenly pulled out in front of you".

THIS is the lowdown on what happened.

All of us are new Segway owners attending a Segway CLASS on operating our new Segway, the instructor flat out told us to do an emergency stop.

If you LISTEN to the video, you can tell that Andrew was reluctant to try this stop and it took him several tries. Finally he got close to being able to correctly stop ( you can even hear my girlfriend say "see...he can stop now" ) and then the Segway dumped him on his face.

The "uh...O.K. I got it now" you hear Andy say is out of reluctance, NOT a smirk...listen again.

The real kicker?

This whole thing started over a question about how to avoid an unforseen accident such as a car pulling out in front of you.

I guess being FLUNG in front of the oncoming vehicle is O.K. because he stopped too fast...right? It is the operators fault, not the Segway and we all didn't just see what we just saw.

If you are traveling down a sidewalk or bikelane at a mere 5 - 7 mph and a careless driver pulls out, your chances are better if you DIVE off the Segway backwards than try to stop. Diving off...you might live. Riding the Segway will put your head right under the vehicles tire.

None of us have taken delivery of our machines yet, the course is offered to new buyers, and my advice is DO NOT LISTEN TO THE INSTRUCTOR who says you will not fall off.

There were 10 crashes over the course of the day, we just happened to catch this one on tape.

I guess the only option in the case of an emergency stop is to get killed.... right?

I am very disappointed in my first and LAST visit to these forums. Hopefully, one day I will be a super-stud-stunt-segway driver like the "experts" here in case I am ever in an emergency situation.

05-29-2003, 04:13 PM

i don't think anyone is saying "fault"...the segway can and will shut down when certain parameters are exceeded. when i saw the video, it's exactly what the manual, the video and what a trainer (maybe not this one) will tell you-- do this and the ht will do a safety shutdown.

i've logged over 850 miles and have never fell. all the owners here will tell you pretty much the same. the segway does a great job balancing you, but if you push it, it will do a safety shutdown.

it's good you saw this in training.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

ftropea

05-29-2003, 04:18 PM

Saber,

Before you totally discount this forum, please check out the other 27,000 posts. There is a lot off good stuff here.. We've all learned a lot from each other.

Thanks for sharing your story.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

toybuilder

05-29-2003, 04:26 PM

Oh, please... I did that long time ago!
http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1614

http://www.pasadenasegway.com

BruceWright

05-29-2003, 04:28 PM

Saber Salinas,

Welcome to the forum. I'm sorry that someone else posted your video with no introduction and no history on the board.

Try to see it from our point of view. Nobody explained where the video was shot, why it was shot, who shot it, who the people involved were, anything.

It happens from time to time on Segway boards. The old ring-and-run.
Since nobody explained what the video was, why they were posting it (other than to call the inventor a liar), who was the rider, etc, we tried to figure it out.

From a bunch of Segway owners, the rider's usage seemed to be outside of the ordinary operation of a Segway, and indeed out of the ordinary emergency operation of a Segway.

I can and have stopped a Segway really fast without laying it down. The key is practice, patience, understanding the vehicle, and riding within your limits.

Only one of the Segway owners on this board has experienced what your friend did. I've travelled hundreds of miles, so have many others. I've made emergency stops too, as have many others.

Do you understand why, from out point of view, we looked at this video the way we did?

Read around here before you leave Saber Salinas, you may find this a useful place full of other tips that might save your life on a Segway.

If when you have a Segway, you feel that you have a safer emergency stop procedure than the one you were trained to use, by all means share it. Don't ring and run.

Contribute rather than condemn this forum. It's only as good as its members. All ideas are welcome, you just need to present them.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

toybuilder

05-29-2003, 04:29 PM

BTW, the problem comes down to throwing your weight too abruptly when you're at the stick limit (or, in this case, the reverse stick limit).

That's the biggest newbie mistake -- experienced riders do not stay against the stick for long, and certainly wouldn't throw their weight when they are.

http://www.pasadenasegway.com

jefrose

05-29-2003, 04:31 PM

I've had the segway for a few months and the majority of the time i ride on the street (posted speed 25-40mph). I always wear a helmet and have the helmet with the built in rear-view mirror. If I see cars behind me I pull off to the side and let them pass. Two times, however, I've had to do emergency stops due to cars pulling out from parking spaces. I've pulled back harshly to stop and have had no problems. Be aware of parked cars and busy intersections.

fredkap

05-29-2003, 04:50 PM

I believe that PT & Bruce have over-reacted to this video. PT is rightfully proud of never having had a spill in 800?? miles of useage and Bruce hates to see anything derogatory towards the Seg. That said, there are a lot of people who like to test the misuse envelope. There is nothing criminal in that. Certainly this Segging was done in a controlled parking lot with everyone wearing helmets. The "instructor" was a little too agressive in what he was teaching his newbies. Still, I look at the video and see a Seg that handled some incredible stress remarkably well. I also think that Saber shouldn't jump in an emergency stop but do a better emergency stop. Cool the passions. As Rodney King basically said "Can't we all learn to get along together?"

Fred

Sid Viscous

05-29-2003, 04:52 PM

Here is the problem that caused the suden and unexpected and less than perfect dismount.

He applied a large amount of back lean, which is fine, but he did this without bending his body one little bit. The Segway then brought itself upright. The effect was to pull him upright. This is where the mistake was made.

PT and the others can confirm that when recovering from a sudden stop you need to allow your arms to extend while keeping your body to the rear. Your body should also be bent into a subtle sitting position (which is, or should be part of the training on sudden stops, either this student wasn't told, or didn't do it) ** Just re watched the video. on the first stop he did bend at the waist, on the second he did not**

So instead of the proper technique kept his arms locked, gripped the handlebars (another no no) and allowed the segway to pull him upright. This creates a rather large moving mass traveling forward. The Segway was not able to stop this moving mass and pitched forward, eventually it exceeded it's pitch angle and shut down. Important the Segway shut down pitching forward, not aft.

Luckily the student wasn't injured.

As to the instructor. I do not think he was a Segway employee. There are only two people I know that look like that (remember you only see the instructor from the back) and niether are named Jack. I cannot confirm that though (I am trying right now)

The problem is a novice rider. That same gentleman after a few hours _couldn't_ make that mistake again unless he intentionally tried to. Novice riders after they first overcontrol the machine, then have a tendency to give up to much control to the machine. It's a brief period but it is there. HE essentially hung on and trusted the machine to put him upright when he should have been compensating a little himself.

And yes he was leaning to far on the handlebar.

To someone elses' comment, he was not going in excess of 12.5 miles an hour. He would have been on a black key for one, and that is not a situation where he could have over driven the machine even briefly.

Sid Viscous

05-29-2003, 04:56 PM

"There were 10 crashes over the course of the day, we just happened to catch this one on tape."

Actually that confirms it for me that it wasn't a Segway employee training them. I had a feeling that it looked a little uncontrolled. 10 "crashes" is unheard of in my opinion.

And PS Saber, your right the people on this board often get excessively defensive.

edited to change instructor to employee.

dhugger

05-29-2003, 05:01 PM

I think I have noticed something that may have been overlooked. Notice when the guy pulls back. It is right as he is pushing the speed limiter. The platform is already at a 45 degree angle before he even pullls back. This is why the fall occured. The HT (most likely) wasn't designed to stop that quickly when the platform is that far from being level. It makes perfect sense. Also notice that the HT never once lost traction ;)

-Derek Hugger-

hubbahbubbah

05-29-2003, 05:10 PM

quote:Originally posted by pt

i don't think anyone is saying "fault"...the segway can and will shut down when certain parameters are exceeded. when i saw the video, it's exactly what the manual, the video and what a trainer (maybe not this one) will tell you-- do this and the ht will do a safety shutdown.

i've logged over 850 miles and have never fell. all the owners here will tell you pretty much the same. the segway does a great job balancing you, but if you push it, it will do a safety shutdown.

it's good you saw this in training.

cheers,
pt

pt, I'm really sorry to say this, but I think there WAS someone saying "fault" and it was You, even if you didn't use that precise word. quote:pt earlier: maybe i'm watching a differnt video hubbah, he tried twice to "fall over". You watched the video and, against all evidence frankly, you implied that the guy was trying to crash his Segway.

For extra umph, you even inserted that he's an overclocker -- to not-so-subtly imply that he likes push things over the edge and that's what he was doing with the Segway.

What is the result? You're turning people off of Segwaychat by being consistently closed to new information and holding up the Seg as a flawless machine, unable to do wrong unless pushed over the edge by users with bad intentions. I think such an attitude is unhelpful.

Truthfuly, Saber Salinas is not the only one being slowly turned off of Segwaychat. I hope sincerely that SegwayChat can remain a forum for discovery and exploration, not a forum for marketing and selling the Segway. After all, isn't there a 'for Sale' forum that?

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

fredkap

05-29-2003, 05:11 PM

I just e-mailed Saber the following:

Saber, this chat forum usually is a hoot but passions got going by a few conservative members on this one. I have learned a huge amount from this chat board and most of the people are genuinely nice even those who got into an uproar over this video.

Fred

hubbahbubbah

05-29-2003, 05:15 PM

quote:Originally posted by fredkap

I just e-mailed Saber the following:

Saber, this chat forum usually is a hoot but passions got going by a few conservative members on this one. I have learned a huge amount from this chat board and most of the people are genuinely nice even those who got into an uproar over this video.

Fred

Agree, especially about the genuinely nice part. I especially like one member whose name I wont reveal, with the initials p.t. He gets carried away a bit, but one of my favorite, nevertheless! :)

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

GlideMaster

05-29-2003, 05:49 PM

<center>All I can say on this one is from the lessns of a GlideMaster.</center>

<center>The GlideMaster</center>
<center>http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete/1267/gif/segway.gif</center>
<center>If You’re Not Graceful In Your Glide, You Must Just Be Out For A Ride. </center>
<center>Responsible Riders Ride Segway and Segway Riders Ride Responsibly</center>
<center>Glide On</center>

BruceWright

05-29-2003, 06:06 PM

quote:Originally posted by fredkap

and Bruce hates to see anything derogatory towards the Seg.

Hey, I've been harder on the Segway than that! ;)

I was saying that I didn't see the video, I did disclaim myself multiple times.

Anyway, it is something that Toybuilder did once too.

But I do think the original poster posted it to get our goat.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

05-29-2003, 06:47 PM

i'm really glad saber posted and i hope he/she sticks around. we have a good spectrum of folks here, some will always have something negative to say about the ht, some always something positive. i think everyone got carried away a bit, the person who posted this saying that we don't like overclockers? as well as folks who had a few choice words (btw, the computer that i'm using right now is upclocked).

that said, i think we all agree that the ht isn't perfect.

we all had lots of questions about the video that was posted here that was titled "andrew the segway monster" by someone who never posted here before, it was just a link and a winky face. so we were left guessing.

here's text from andrew's site:
============================
Segway
I got to ride a segway yesterday. Oh yes I am cool. Even better, I was the first person ever to flip one. I'd have to say I was bucked off, went over the handlebars, endoed, double punched the pavement, bit it, etc.

Segway Crash
Comments on the Segway: I'd pay about $500 for one, they are that fun. Sadly that is only enough for the non-refundable deposit, in US dollars.
============================

>

and on the site it was linked from:
============================
Segway Face Plant:
I could have sworn the inventor of the Segway-human-transport-thingy-mo-bobber said you cannot tip over on one of those things. Well, this video of our buddy Andrew Mellenger doing a not so elegant face plant on a Segway dispels that myth. Heh…you have got to see this, definitely good for a laugh. Thanks for being such a good sport and sending this to us Andrew, we appreciate it.
============================

any way, i hope saber sticks around.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

ftropea

05-29-2003, 07:37 PM

So I don't get it...

Saber said they were all owners getting trained..

But from that text, it doesn't sound like Andrew bought a Segway HT.

So which is it?

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

pam

05-29-2003, 07:45 PM

quote:Originally posted by Sid Viscous
And PS Saber, your right the people on this board often get excessively defensive.

Hmmm, I don't know if I'd say defensive. I will say protective. May be the same difference to some people.

But there's a difference between someone saying
"I did something unexpected and the Segway tossed me, and this is what I've learned - you can't XYZ"
and saying
"Segway is a **-up company because it didn't anticipate every little thing a rider might do and try to 'fix' it before it was released."

We've had both kinds of comments on these boards. The first usually arouses a lot of sympathy and respect for the person, and a great learning experience had by all. The second usually arouses a very different response - some of that "defensiveness" that Sid talks about. <G>

Speaking for myself, and possibly for those of us who have had our HTs for a while and who were well trained, I really hate to see videos made of someone who is doing something beyond the capability of the HT, and then have it posted with snarky comments on the Net as if the problem is only the unit or company's fault. That just doesn't seem fair to me. After all it is what it is. You don't ask a blender to be different than a blender, or a vacuum cleaner different than a vacuum cleaner.

And then I have seen some comments of people who WANT the HT to be something it isn't, and blame the company because "they" didn't create the HT that way. (Faster, right hand turn knob, etc.) Not to say that improvements can't be made - there are always improvements that can be made after a design gets on the ground. But to say Segway is stupid or dumb (although I don't think any of those words were used here, but I have seen them used) because Segway didn't do a design that someone desires, that seems a bit .... wierd.

Now,in this instance, it appears that the trainer was not clear (maybe even for himself) on what might happen if you do a sit stop and over balance beyond the capability of the unit. But lord knows, for all those who have seen the training video, (the one I call, "No Segway Employee was injured in the creation of this video" <G>) we're told over and over that it CAN fall, and shown in loving (gory) detail HOW it can fall.

I may be conservative, but I do try to be fair.

Pam

Blinky

05-29-2003, 07:56 PM

Well said pam, I just watched that video and that kid making an ___ of himself.

If true that the instructor was teaching this kid to ride the Segway he was doing a poor job at it. Based on all different experiences from all different Segway owners on SegwayChat, this guy must have been abusing the Segway.

The intructor should go back to Segway instructor camp and learn the right way to teach, or have all Segway privs taken away :)

http://www.bl.com/ben/gifs/Blinky.gif http://www.harpy.net/paul/blinky.jpg

fredkap

05-29-2003, 08:14 PM

Since LLC does all of its training indoors, it appears to me that this is JM Lexus training. I agree that the trainer was at fault as the first quick stop the man made was great...but he was egged on to push it further. For my info, could anyone from JM Lexus training describe if this is their training and what you guys do.

Fred

clm

05-29-2003, 08:18 PM

Sid, thanks for you contributions to this forum. I do believe your about the only contributer that post useful hard and believable information here. Thanks again as it has helped me and others alot.

Now leaving the morality to others, I am solely interested in how the Segway works. To that purpose I'll "ping" your message:

quote:Originally posted by Sid Viscous

Here is the problem that caused the suden and unexpected and less than perfect dismount.

He applied a large amount of back lean, which is fine, but he did this without bending his body one little bit. The Segway then brought itself upright. The effect was to pull him upright. This is where the mistake was made.

PT and the others can confirm that when recovering from a sudden stop you need to allow your arms to extend while keeping your body to the rear. Your body should also be bent into a subtle sitting position (which is, or should be part of the training on sudden stops, either this student wasn't told, or didn't do it) ** Just re watched the video. on the first stop he did bend at the waist, on the second he did not**

OK - This is all good stuff. I'll interject here the "why" it is that it is important to extend your arms and to a lessor extent squat all has to do with the angle of your center of gravity to the axle verses the platform lean angle. To stop rapidly you MUST get your CG way aft of the axle. But, think about it, your CG MUST also always be above the apparent gravity or you'd go flying off forward of fall off backward. The human is really good at maintaining itself perpendicular to apparent gravity without one even being aware of it.

Now, with extended arms, the platform is at a LESSER angle than the person AND the rider can control this angle by pulling the stick in or squatting more out. This is the control you need to stop gracefully. Look at the first video and notice that Andrew pulls the bar toward him at the last moment before stopping, i.e. he places his CG above the axle as the wheels stop. All very good. In a successful stop you want to end up verticle just as the wheels stop rolling and one does this by contoling one's angle relative to the stick.

quote:So instead of the proper technique kept his arms locked, gripped the handlebars (another no no) and allowed the segway to pull him upright. This creates a rather large moving mass traveling forward. The Segway was not able to stop this moving mass and pitched forward, eventually it exceeded it's pitch angle and shut down. Important the Segway shut down pitching forward, not aft.

Sid, I don't think I agree with you here. Look carefully again at the video and focus on the Segway wheels. It looks to me like he has a death grip on the handlebars at the moment the wheels come to a stop in the forward direction. Andrew and the platform are still at a radical angle, and the Segway motors are obviously still at maximum torque. They reverse direction and drive back under Andrew. NO SHUTDOWN YET. Now this is a lever action much like a diver's springboard. There is a wedge formed with the Segway decelerating Andrew's CG AND ALSO LIFTING ANDREW UPWARD by driving back under him. Moments later the Segway wheels are accelerating in reverse very rapidly as Andrew's weight is momentarily lifted from the platform. (Andrew is now essensially rotating about his center of gravity and his CG has "bounced" a bit. His head is still going forward, but his feet and the Segway are going backward at a fair speed.

Now - just as the Segway stick passes vertical - I think this is the moment when Andrew's Segway shut down. Do you see that? I think I can sense a change at that point from "Segway dynamics" to plain old stick-on-an-axle dynamics. Do you agree? The question is why did it shut down at this moment?

I am guessing that it sensed an excess of rotational speed in the reverse direction. Do you agree, Sid? It can't be a lean angle trip. Notice that the platform was at maximum lean angle at the point when the wheels reversed their direction. Clearly the Segway is still under power after this moment as the stick moves from 40 degrees to the vertical, so it cannot be a lean angle shutdown trip.

Now at the point of vertical Andrew the platform is still not flat as Andrew still has a death grip on the stick. We know that the stick is afixed with about a 10 degree angle to the platform. When Andrew is 10 degrees forward I would expect the Segway Wheels to again roll forward and try to right Andrew from the other side, BUT THEY DON'T! Why? because the Segway is already dead at this point...

I often rock back and forth, even enough to trigger "stick shake" when the Segway rocks backward. I suppose if I did this a bit harder I would trigger a shutdown? If so this is good to know before I emulate Andrew.

Chris

05-29-2003, 08:38 PM

it would be good to get a bit more info:

-is andrew a segway owner? it seems like he was not according to his post on his site. saber said this was all owners.
-if not why is here there? maybe a pal of an owner?
-was this a segway employee doing the training? it seems like it was not.
-10 crashes? that makes me think it's not a segway trainer.
-if someone isn't an owner and this was his only chance to use a segway, it's reasonable to think some folks may want to push the limited of the ht, i think i might.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

Blinky

05-29-2003, 08:47 PM

quote:Sid, thanks for you contributions to this forum. I do believe your about the only contributer that post useful hard and believable information here. Thanks again as it has helped me and others alot.
For members who decide to contribute in the future, please stop posting useless and non-believable information.

Thank you

LOL

no... really, thanks [:P]

Sorry for the service interuption, please resume the topic at hand

http://www.bl.com/ben/gifs/Blinky.gif http://www.harpy.net/paul/blinky.jpg

05-29-2003, 08:53 PM

yah know what-

to heck with all of you saying andrew didn't try to make it fall over. listen -really- close to what he says (i just did on my video station).

instructor says "you won't fall over".
andrew says "yah, okay" and then he backs up...if you listen closely he says "no, no i'll make it".

i wasn't 100% sure until i listened on a better system here, and that's what he said and -that- is what he did.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

clm

05-29-2003, 08:54 PM

quote:Originally posted by Saber Salinas

I guess the only option in the case of an emergency stop is to get killed.... right?
One final point. Andrew was not FLUNG forward.

Look at the video carefully. Notice the white paint strip on the pavement where the Segway wheels come to a stop. Notice Andrew. At no time does Andrew go pass this point. The Segway saved his life!

quote:If you are traveling down a sidewalk or bikelane at a mere 5 - 7 mph and a careless driver pulls out, your chances are better if you DIVE off the Segway backwards than try to stop. Diving off...you might live. Riding the Segway will put your head right under the vehicles tire.

Once again Segway advanced technology is sorely misunderstood. If Andrew dove off his inertia would still carry him at 5 - 7 mph into the path of the careless driver. By staying on board the powerful Segway motors stopped Andrew short of the driveway. He fell and scuffed a knuckle, but he is alive and unharmed.

Andrew is lucky he was not on foot, or on a bicycle. In both cases he would have been crushed by the careless driver. Segway saves lives.

Chris

clm

05-29-2003, 09:02 PM

And Blinky, I know you were about to point that out too. Sorry I jumped ahead of you [:P]

Chris

BruceWright

05-29-2003, 09:06 PM

Great observation, chris.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

05-29-2003, 09:06 PM

quote:Originally posted by hubbahbubbah You watched the video and, against all evidence frankly, you implied that the guy was trying to crash his Segway.

hubbah, you can't hear andrew saying "no, no i'll make it" after the trainer says "you won't fall over?".

is that enough evidence? unless someone wants to tell me he didn't say that or "i'll make it" doesn't mean his intention was to "make it" fall over.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

clm

05-29-2003, 09:13 PM

Thanks Bruce, and one final thing.

At the end, Andy is very, very happy with himself :)

Chris

ftropea

05-29-2003, 09:17 PM

Well, I'm home now and was able to listen/watch the clip a few times..

It does seem Andrew was answering a challenge to flip the Segway.. and he succeeded. He does say, "No, I'll make it" after the instructor tells him he won't fall over.

It surprises me that an instructor would allow someone to attempt to push a Seg to extreme limits like this. At everyone's training, did they tell you not to hang over the handlebars? They told us that.. also, they showed us the correct way to do an emergency stop. I can't understand, after watching this video, how the instructor would allow someone to retry the attempt after showing such bad form the first time around.

Maybe it's all 20/20 hindsight.. and since there is so rarely an incident such as this, it probably always catches an instructor by surprise.

BTW - this is another reason why I tell owners never to show people what you *shouldn't* do on a Seg.. It should always be what you *should* do.

Anyway..

Andrew is probably not an owner so he was just there for a demo?

Side note to CLM: Way to go putting everyone down (except for Sid) in this thread. Personally, I think many forum members have contributed greatly to the forum - even you on rare occasions.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

BruceWright

05-29-2003, 09:19 PM

Yeah, but honestly, the things I contribute are mostly false.

;)

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

05-29-2003, 09:27 PM

i often contribute things without evidence it seems, like bans will happen because of some rental companies and people who say "i'll make it" usually do when they intend to force a safety shutdown on a segway ht.

oh wait, both of those things -really- happened :-]

thanks clm.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

clm

05-29-2003, 09:43 PM

Chortle - Fer sure I found the button to push. I'll file that tid bit for future reference :) Anyone read any of the rest of that post?

I still don't have the actual shut down cause nailed. I know it wasn't maximum lean. I said it might be max reverse wheel speed, but I don't think I believe that either. Shutdown happened right before or right at the point that the platform went through level position, and it never looked like the wheels reversed torque. I wonder if there is a shutdown for when the platform angle is changing too rapidly? Anyone want to jump in here? Anyone?

Chris

edit - blasted spelling - frank - how about a spell checker?

4Seg

05-29-2003, 09:44 PM

Looks like we have a Darwin Award winner. Obviously, the kid didn't see the video created by Segway LLC. First off, he was WAY over the handle bars when he started; secondly, the stopping was out of control and too far back.

The training video explicitly states not to do what he did. pt made it clear some time back as well. Operate the Segway by the book. It's behavior like this bashers will try to get the HT banned. The video should be yanked (but that's just my viewpoint).

I hope the guy's wrists aren't cracked.

be keen, keep clean, glide green.
http://www.stlsegway.com
Help support FIRST http://www.usfirst.org

05-29-2003, 09:46 PM

could it be that he said "i'll make it" and did what he needed to, to do just that?.

no buttons pressed here :-]

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

BruceWright

05-29-2003, 09:46 PM

Not having seen it, here's a guess.

It was a max lean shutdown, but it took a second to ACTUALLY shut down.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

clm

05-29-2003, 10:02 PM

(good thinking, but) NO! Bruce - I can't go for that...

The Segway does its thing in 10 milliseconds or less. A second is forever for the Segway. Unless you tell me you know it's that sure, then it's got to be another parameter, but what?

Chris

p.s. I mean't to say above that "...you and Bruce are about the only contributors..."

stevew

05-29-2003, 10:18 PM

Aside from this guy not using well-practiced form for an emergency stop, I can't imagine ever having to stop this fast immediately after accelerating as fast as possible against the speed limiter, unless a brick wall somehow pops up out of the ground in front of you or a large object falls out of the sky directly in your path. From years of cycling, and as BicycleDriver has pointed out you learn to go only as fast as your sitelines and escape routes ahead allow. For instance you wouldn't approach a blind corner or intersection at 12.5+ MPH unless you clearly have time/space to stop/turn to avoid the obstacle. And any stop while jammed up against the speed limiter is going to be compromised. This is stuff you figure out on your own if you gradually and responsibly ramp up your operating envelope in those critical first hours and days of HT ownership/operation.

Race3

05-29-2003, 10:57 PM

PT: He said "i'll make it" but that absolutely was not about 'making it fall over'. They were trying to teach him to stop quickly and he was having problems with that. So, he said that he'll make it meaning he can do it! You need to listen more closely with an open mind. This guy absolutely did not fall over intentionally. And of course, he was learning! I am sure he knows how to handle the segway better now. But to say he did this intentionally is ridiculous.

GlideMaster

05-29-2003, 10:58 PM

I remember last year when I was the only one gliding on this site and everyone always wanted me to see how many feet it would take to stop a glider at full speed. Now they know why I refused.

quote:GlideMaster
Senior Member

Posted - Dec 17 2002 : 5:21:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

J10, please do not let them draw you into this braking thing. As I've said in numerous post before this is crazy. I don't think anyone on this site (myself included)is qualified to do test on the stopping distances of the Segway; and I'm just about certain I've done more gliding than most on this site. If they want to know more information on the stopping distances, let them call Segway or get their own Segway and do their own test.

<center>The GlideMaster</center>
<center>http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete/1267/gif/segway.gif</center>
<center>If You’re Not Graceful In Your Glide, You Must Just Be Out For A Ride. </center>
<center>Responsible Riders Ride Segway and Segway Riders Ride Responsibly</center>
<center>Glide On</center>

ftropea

05-29-2003, 11:01 PM

Race3,

Do you know if Andrew is an owner? If not, was he just there for a demo?

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

Lohja

05-29-2003, 11:06 PM

I watched it a few times and noticed the first stop was under control using the sit-down movement with the sholders straight up. Good stop. The second stop was leaning far backwards, less sit-down movement and to far back with the shoulders. Also, he pulled the handlebars back and then forced them forward. He apparently knew the correct way to stop; but made an improper stop to test the limits. Leaning forward over the handlebar on his start is a good indication of his attitude at the time. He simply rode it improperly to test its limits. He purposely pushed it too far. Like anything else, if you don't ride it properly, stay off or you'll get hurt. He would never ride my Segway.

Visit my Segway Blog page at http://galsegway01.blogspot.com

dhugger

05-29-2003, 11:31 PM

Wow, it's been said that a picture is worth a thousand words.... and it looks like a video of a Seg crash is worth about ten million ;)

-Derek Hugger-

Blinky

05-30-2003, 12:25 AM

quote:Originally posted by dhugger

Wow, it's been said that a picture is worth a thousand words.... and it looks like a video of a Seg crash is worth about ten million ;)

-Derek Hugger-

I am supprised this thread has grown as fast as it did. It is obvious that this guy who fell of the Segway in the video is careless and is an inexperienced rider.

If he listened to the instructor (assuming the instructor gave the kid that fell the PROPER instructions), this should not happen.

What else is there to discuss about the matter?

http://www.bl.com/ben/gifs/Blinky.gif http://www.harpy.net/paul/blinky.jpg

ftropea

05-30-2003, 12:43 AM

Well, I'd still like to understand the mechanics of it... I find this stuff interesting.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

clm

05-30-2003, 12:54 AM

Good for you, Frank.

Now watch that video 100 more times and tell me just exactly what triggered the shutdown. And no, I am not looking for the answer "stupidity caused it". I want to know the NAME of the software routine that ordered power off, or barring that, the name of the out-of-range parameter.

I know it fired off with the stick was about vertical or a little after. I "think" the wheels got some "forward" torque as they were moving aft awfully fast and then were turning slow after the stick went into free fall, so something slowed them down then "poof". At the last the wheels sped up going aft again, but this is just Andrew pushing out with his feet against a dead Seg.

Chris

Blinky

05-30-2003, 01:02 AM

quote:Originally posted by ftropea

Well, I'd still like to understand the mechanics of it... I find this stuff interesting.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

I thought CLM's buddy answered that already [8D]

posted earlier by SID V
quote:He applied a large amount of back lean, which is fine, but he did this without bending his body one little bit. The Segway then brought itself upright. The effect was to pull him upright. This is where the mistake was made.

PT and the others can confirm that when recovering from a sudden stop you need to allow your arms to extend while keeping your body to the rear. Your body should also be bent into a subtle sitting position (which is, or should be part of the training on sudden stops, either this student wasn't told, or didn't do it) ** Just re watched the video. on the first stop he did bend at the waist, on the second he did not**

So instead of the proper technique kept his arms locked, gripped the handlebars (another no no) and allowed the segway to pull him upright. This creates a rather large moving mass traveling forward. The Segway was not able to stop this moving mass and pitched forward, eventually it exceeded it's pitch angle and shut down. Important the Segway shut down pitching forward, not aft.

Any more technical, we may need a Segway designer in here. ;)

http://www.bl.com/ben/gifs/Blinky.gif http://www.harpy.net/paul/blinky.jpg

ftropea

05-30-2003, 01:15 AM

For the answer, we can probably refer to the filed patents.. it's all there really. I'm not an expert in this sort of stuff, but in patent # 6,408,240 B1 - on "page" 12 - line 30 - ???

**************************

The wheel motor commands are generated through a control law having the form

Command=K.sub.1.theta.+K.sub.2.theta..sub.r +K.sub.3 x+K.sub.4 x.sub.r

where

.theta.=transporter pitch error

.theta..sub.r =transporter pitch rate error

x=transporter position error

x.sub.r =transporter velocity error

The dynamic state variables are in the form of an error term defined as the desired value minus the measured value. For example, .theta. is the desired transporter pitch minus the measured transporter pitch. The measured transporter pitch and pitch rate are determined from the IMU signals. The measured transporter position and transporter velocity are determined from the shaft feedback sensors. For balanced operation, the desired pitch rate is set to zero. The desired pitch may be adjusted by the rider through a pitch trim control and may also be adjusted by the control program during transporter operation.

....

**************************

The patent goes on to describe how these variables are "user controllable" - probably through the coded keys - and describe extremes and resulting performance characteristics.

However, the patent clearly explains that these user adjustable settings have their limits.. for example, from the patent:

"However, the gains cannot be adjusted in a completely independent manner and still have the transporter remain stable. The bandwidth of the sensor signals (velocity, pitch, pitch rate, etc.) as well as the bandwidth of the actuator (transmission stiffness, torque bandwidth) place an upper limit on the achievable stiffness. For another example, if the shaft feedback sensor is capable of providing a high resolution velocity signal with very small delay and the processor is capable of a high frame rate, the gains may be increased to provide a stiff transporter response while avoiding oscillatory instability. Conversely, if the shaft feedback sensor generates a noisy velocity signal or the processor frame rate is only moderate, the ability to increase the gains will be limited and the rider will experience a "mushy" or "sloppy" transporter response."

Again, I'm not an expert in this area, but it would seem that the Seg's "upper limits" - its ability to remain the proper stiffness - was reached and triggered a shutdown.. registering as a failure.

If you've got time, bury yourself into these patents.. it's all in there although it's a bit tough to read.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

05-30-2003, 01:22 AM

race3, he 100% meant "i'll make it" fall over.

quote:Originally posted by Race3 PT: He said "i'll make it" but that absolutely was not about 'making it fall over'. They were trying to teach him to stop quickly and he was having problems with that. So, he said that he'll make it meaning he can do it! You need to listen more closely with an open mind. This guy absolutely did not fall over intentionally. And of course, he was learning! I am sure he knows how to handle the segway better now. But to say he did this intentionally is ridiculous.

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

ftropea

05-30-2003, 01:29 AM

By the way..

The reason I think there was an upper limit failure is because the torque threshold was reached.. and the reason for that was because the guy remained rigid, never lowered his center of gravity.. so at the point where he had the machine leaning forward, there was too much weight being applied at the handle bars, towards the ground - and not enough weight being lowered and applied down at the platform (where some effort to "counter lever" the Seg would have been helpful!).

So the control shaft is like this long lever.. and the weight up top kept increasing.. the wheels and motors tried as hard as they could (within their pre-determined threshold) to lift him back up.. but it's eventually gonna give up otherwise something burns out or probably snaps ;)

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

stevew

05-30-2003, 01:56 AM

I think Frank is on to something. At some point the motors reach max torque due to max current to the motors. The batteries have internal resistance and can physically only supply a maximum current. Also at some point you'll either fry a motor winding or motor amplifier mosfet due to instant heat buildup. Conclusion: The Segway isn't magic but built from real physical hardware that has real limitations, so the design has to make the best compromise it can between protecting the rider and preventing self destruction of the HT hardware

hubbahbubbah

05-30-2003, 02:16 AM

pt, and everyone else -- I missed the earlier posts about the "I'll make it quote," but I'm pretty sure you're wrong.

Let's consider the evidence...

1. We have testimony from someone who was there that he wasn't trying to make it fall. Why would they cover it up?
2. At the beginning, after trying to stop, he says "yeah, i got it" clearly indicating he was in the process of learning how to stop quickly.
3. He is heard to be encouraged by the instructor to try harder. He followed those instructions.
4. I think he says "I LIKE IT," not "I'll make it." Whatever he says, it's not a response to "it won't fall over..." There are several snippets in between, and he might as well be referring to a harder stop that he's trying to learn.
5. I THINK IT IS REFLEXIVELY IMPOSSIBLE to do what he's doing as he falls. Anyone that would try to get the Seg to fall intentionally would jump off at the end or let the handlebars go. Andy HANGS ON to the handlebar until it hits the ground. It is the action of someone who has faith in the machine -- not someone who expect is to go out of control. This to me is the strongest piece of evidence in the whole video.
6. After the fall, does Andy have a victorious look? Does he smile at the instructor and say see? No, he looks shocked and surprised.
7. If you were to crash the Segway intentionally -- wouldn't you master it first? It's very clear that he's a newbie -- he'd have to have learned the Seg first, before trying to think of ways to crash it intentionally.

Basically, he was never told to listen to the Seg pushing back -- he leans onto the handle bar and his feet are in the wrong place. It was an accident! How can you insist that so much training is needed, yet be surprised when someone seems to be in need of training?

Again, look at the evidence, conveniently numbered above.

100%?????? Phooey.

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

05-30-2003, 02:31 AM

hubbah,

you're totally wrong, this guy says "no, no, i'll make it" when the trainer says "you won't fall over" why would andrew say "i like it" that's -really- reaching. listen to it, he says "no, no i'll make it".

1. saber said these were all owners, we know they're not as per andrew's site. he's not an owner. there's no cover up. anyone who listens to the video can hear what andrew is saying.
2. the "yah i got it" is andrew just saying, "yah whatever" he then says "no, no i'll make it". listen close, he also comments about taking one foot of to one of the gals there.
3. the instructor didn't say "try harder". but, the instructor from what i can isn't a very good one.
4. he didn't say "no, no, i like it" that would be bizarre in the context of the video.
5. andy tried to make the segway fall over, he said "i'll make it". heck, he's proud of that on his site, he says so (see my post that quotes his site).
6. he looks happy to me, mission accomplished.
7. he's not an owner, he's a guy trying to push the ht, there's nothing wrong with that-- but he -did- intentionally try to crash the ht, he said it.

yep, training is needed, i won't say that's not true. i am saying this fella was on a mission to make the ht "fall over" and he did. on his site he says this is "cool" and says how he's the first.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

hubbahbubbah

05-30-2003, 02:54 AM

pt, to me he could be saying 'like it' or 'make it,' I can't tell. But it doesn't matter, nothing in the situation suggests he's doing it on purpose.

The 'taking the foot off' quote is said in a questioning tone, so I think it's a question to one of the other people, not what he's planning to do. Please address #2, #5 and #7 of what I said earlier.

All in all, the whole situation is completely logical -- he's learning and he falls. What you're saying is a complete reach - I feel like the burden of proof is on you - and you still haven't presented any evidence for it, aside from "make it," which even when it was uttered, tells us nothing about his intentions.

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

05-30-2003, 03:04 AM

hubbah-

oh c'mon...you don't really think he's saying "i like it"...that would be bizarre for that video and in that context.

adding to that, he also posted "I got to ride a segway yesterday. Oh yes I am cool. Even better, I was the first person ever to flip one"...

most people agree that he's saying "no, no i'll *make* it" after the instructor says "you won't fall over".

...he says "no, no, i'll make it" his intentions are clear and he did exactly what he said he would.

this fella is a non-owner (as per his site) who wanted to push the limits and he had a crummy trainer, nothing wrong with that-- just don't pretend he wasn't trying to make the ht fall over.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

hubbahbubbah

05-30-2003, 03:08 AM

I don't know what he was doing. I'm just saying there is no evidence he tried to intentially flip it.

Also: #2, #5 and #7:

2. At the beginning, after trying to stop, he says "yeah, i got it" clearly indicating he was in the process of learning how to stop quickly.
5. I THINK IT IS REFLEXIVELY IMPOSSIBLE to do what he's doing as he falls. Anyone that would try to get the Seg to fall intentionally would jump off at the end or let the handlebars go. Andy HANGS ON to the handlebar until it hits the ground. It is the action of someone who has faith in the machine -- not someone who expect is to go out of control. This to me is the strongest piece of evidence in the whole video.
7. If you were to crash the Segway intentionally -- wouldn't you master it first? It's very clear that he's a newbie -- he'd have to have learned the Seg first, before trying to think of ways to crash it intentionally.

Especially #5!

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

toybuilder

05-30-2003, 03:08 AM

Yeah, after looking at it over and over again, I have to come to the conclusion that the guy was trying to test the limits of the machine. Still, after listening to the audio track on a loop, I think "I like it" is more likely than "I'll make it". I don't think it was a deliberate malicious "I'll prove you wrong" attitude.

There's a lot of footage before and after that we don't see. Out of context, that one line doesn't really help explain much of what happened. (For a fun time, go visit www.ntsb.gov and listen to some of the flight recorder tapes... Ah, forensics!)

One thing to point out when watching the tape -- the camera is held free-hand and is not always level to the ground, so you need to look at other features in the background to establish the horizontal.

This is my guess:

First, the platform hit a performance envelope limit -- high negative speed, high positive torque. I don't think the Segway shut down at that point -- instead, it just couldn't keep up anymore and the platform (well, rider+platform) was pitching downward faster than the Segway could keep up.

Then, as the platform reached a critical limit angle, it probably then decided to go into a safety shutdown.

Now, why do I say safety shutdown? Well, imagine if the Segway was to accelerate when the platform is already tilted down to a dangerous angle -- it would continue to accelerate a person head-first and yet (possibly) never catch up. The result would be much more catastrophic -- running out of torque after maximally accelerating the rider. Better to give up sooner than later.

Finally, my earlier statement still stands -- an experienced rider learns to make smoother shifts in body weight. This guy definitely did it wrong (whether on purpose or otherwise).

http://www.pasadenasegway.com/
A bicycle in 1897 cost $25 ($2,200 today adjusted for inflation).
A Ford Model-T cost $850 in 1908 ($75,000 today adjusted for inflation).

hubbahbubbah

05-30-2003, 03:12 AM

pt, partial quotes are unsettling to me.

In the video, there are many words between 'you won't make it fall' and 'i'll make it' (if that's what he says -- it's still 'like' to me and now to toybuilder too) which you didn't mention and i didn't realize until i watched it again.

Also, on the website you quote, you left out "I'd have to say I was bucked off, went over the handlebars, endoed, double punched the pavement, bit it, etc. " which he says directly after saying he flipped it. Btw, 'flipping' something doesn't imply intent. If I get in an accident w/ my car and flip it, it means it flipped over, not that I flipped it on purpose.

In fact, here is his entire Segway blog entry:

"Segway
I got to ride a segway yesterday. Oh yes I am cool. Even better, I was the first person ever to flip one. I'd have to say I was bucked off, went over the handlebars, endoed, double punched the pavement, bit it, etc. "

Is that consistent with the fall being accidental? Entirely.

Hubbah
::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

BruceWright

05-30-2003, 03:20 AM

I just saw it. It doesn't look like he meant to make it fall, if he did, he probably wouldn't have been on concrete. I DO think he was trying to push it as far as he could, to see what it would do. That's not a normal emergency stop manuver.

But the Segway didn't launch him forward, it pulled him back out of harm's way.

But yeah, he slammed it in reverse. He pulled the stick toward himself, which is an un-natural Segway riding habit that you break in the first day or two. It's about heels and toes, not throwing your body backwards and hugging the stick.

His hyper-agressive lean over the handlebars (which is right in the no-no video) should have told his trainer to tell this guy to cool it.

I guess that shows where my training style differs from theirs. Mine would have been telling him "You WILL fall over." I tell people "You won't fall over" when I have control of them, and they need confidence. This guy didn't need the confidence, he needed to slow down.

Now he has a cool video to show his friends. It looks so much cooler and more aggro than the girls riding calmly in the back!

Maybe we can use this video to show the Ban police to show them how Segways shut off if you try and hot-dog with them!

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

hubbahbubbah

05-30-2003, 03:23 AM

btw, I certainly agree he didn't know what he was doing. He leaned way too much -- against the pushback, which probably was enough to doom him. I'd say the instructor should have stopped him in his tracks. Still, an accident -- not a purposeful pushover, though. - Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

Sid Viscous

05-30-2003, 03:46 AM

CLM You say tomato, I say tomoto.

The wheeles were spining (tourqing to be more corect sans spelling) in a reverse dorection which pushes the rider forward.

My point was that the HT shut down on a forward pitch fault (+) rather than a rearward (-) pitch fault that others had said.

"It had shut down when he leaned to far back"

As to he movements neccesarry it's hard to describe in words. If PT gets out here we can do a video and I can show you. But the "sitting down" pose is the best description I had.

To show what the roder did wrong, get yourself a helmet, hold the handlebars close to our stomach/chest lock your arms and do a quick stop.

You need to be fluid and loose, and balance yourself in extreme situations.

Sid Viscous

05-30-2003, 03:50 AM

" still don't have the actual shut down cause nailed"

CLM I have seen this "manuver" performed many times, even performed it myself a time or two. The problem occours when the rider pitches forward (and the handlebar) Shutof occours then.

Ask me how I know. I've downloaded the logs.

Sid Viscous

05-30-2003, 03:52 AM

BTW CLM I forgot

;)

Sid Viscous

05-30-2003, 03:53 AM

"If he listened to the instructor (assuming the instructor gave the kid that fell the PROPER instructions), this should not happen."

The instructor should have been much closer and spotting him when he did this manuever.

Sid Viscous

05-30-2003, 03:55 AM

"the name of the out-of-range parameter."

Forward Pitch fault.

Good enough ;)

I remembered it that time.

mzokc

05-30-2003, 04:18 AM

Call me when it's on America's Funniest Home Videos.

The runner up might be two small children on the platform, fighting to lean it in opposite directions.

Mark

Race3

05-30-2003, 10:44 AM

Bottom line on why this was NOT intentional... look at his hands when he falls. He lands on his knuckles! If he was trying and expecting it to fall, his hands would have been open when he hit the ground... this is a natural human response. Who would choose to land on pavement on their knuckles? This was an accident, the guy was training, maybe he didn't do it right, but he definitely did not do it on purpose. Play it frame by frame and you can clearly see that, especially by the way he lands.

05-30-2003, 11:04 AM

i don't think he (or most folks) could have predicted how he would "make it" fall over, but that was his intention. listen closely, i have it on a loop here. he says "no, no, i'll *make* it" when the trainer says "you won't fall over"...and then he does. race3, if i tried to do the same i wouldn't know how i would fall, it happens to fast.

it is possible to try and "make" something happen and still have accidental results, that's what happened here. andrew was just pushing the limits of the ht, without knowing what the limits are and the trainer didn't do a good job, this isn't a big deal.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

Sid Viscous

05-30-2003, 11:48 AM

Best geuss from the powers that be is that this was NOT a Segway LLC event, or a Segway LLC Employee. But unkown who or what kind of event it was.

Race3

05-30-2003, 12:05 PM

he said "i'll make it" referring to the fact that he will accomplish the goal of performing an emergency stop! why don't you get this? and he does not even say this directly after the trainer says "you won't fall over"... there are words between that... so be honest PT. you are stretching the facts and too defensive of this very cool machine.

05-30-2003, 12:17 PM

race3-

the segway is cool, it is by no means perfect, and we humans are not perfect either...i'm sure none of this would have happened with a proper trainer.

no matter what, i'm glad andrew is okay.

andrew said "no, no, i'll -make- it" in response (as he backed up and prepared to go forward) to "you won't fall over".

we might disagree on what "no, no i'll -make- it" means, but that is what he said.

i believe andrew tried to "make it" fall over and had some unexpected results, some folks do not. some people are interested in the science and the programatic side of this.

no matter what, this has been a fun discussion with lots of views :-]

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

Race3

05-30-2003, 12:29 PM

PT: i have to admit, i was wrong on something... he did NOT say "i'll make it"... i just played that section over and over at loud volume... and I now realize like some others have here that he said "i like it". listen again, VERY carefully.... i am sure of this. anyhow, i agree, it's been a fun discussion.

05-30-2003, 12:32 PM

race3-

i sent andrew an email (i wanted to find out) look for my post on a new thread.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

Peter iNova

05-30-2003, 12:48 PM

I guess the point is that you can push anything too far. In this case, about 21 degrees of rearward stopping tilt was too much for a newbie to handle on the return. You can, with practice, lean farther backward and nail the stop with minimal backlash, but it takes a series of these to train yourself to trust the Seg to get it right. In this case, even though he was stopped at 21 degrees, he was still too far forward--a common effect of not trusting the machine--so he wasn't in position to use the backlash to simply stand back up.

By the time it was back to vertical, he was already over the bars. To do this right, he would have had to be another 6+ degrees leaning backwards. And you don't build that level of trust the first time you try this.

http://www.glidewalk.com/GWPix/OutsideTheEnvelope.jpg

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

fredkap

05-30-2003, 01:21 PM

Peter, I think it is more than 21 degrees as the picture wasn't taken exactly at the side. Move the camera angle to be pointed directly at the line of the axle and I believe the angle increases.

Fred

clm

05-30-2003, 01:44 PM

Is it an illusion, or did Andrew actually bend the stick back? Look at the picture above and it looks like the angle at the bottom socket is less that the overall angle. I noticed this at several other frames in the video too.

Chris

mellenger

05-30-2003, 02:10 PM

I made a largish post introducing myself here

http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3533

And about the angle: It felt a lot farther back that 21 degrees. hence the panicked expression and deathgrip.

========
http://m3mm.com

Peter iNova

05-30-2003, 02:13 PM

quote:Originally posted by fredkap

Peter, I think it is more than 21 degrees as the picture wasn't taken exactly at the side. Move the camera angle to be pointed directly at the line of the axle and I believe the angle increases.

Fred

Yeah, sure, it's only approximate, but from the slight off angle seen here, the difference is minor. My choice is to follow the front of his mass with the reference line, not the interior CG just to demonstrate relatively how much farther back he is from the corrected vertical. Where is Eadweard Muybridge now that we need him?

Anyhow, the guy would need to be farther keeled over to recover from that stop's backlash.

I've been practicing "spotting" stops--olympic style--and while you can nail them, they aren't the most abrupt decelerations.

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

Peter iNova

05-30-2003, 02:15 PM

quote:Originally posted by clm

Is it an illusion, or did Andrew actually bend the stick back? Look at the picture above and it looks like the angle at the bottom socket is less that the overall angle. I noticed this at several other frames in the video too.

Chris

That's a traveling glare during the shutter opening. The HT's angle is changing faster than his is. The wheels show some smear, too.

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

BruceWright

05-30-2003, 02:17 PM

quote:Originally posted by Peter iNova

Where is Eadweard Muybridge now that we need him?

Probably somewhere trying to shove even more vowels into his name.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

fredkap

05-30-2003, 02:23 PM

One more thing I learned from segwaychat - Eadweard Muybridge has a weird name but did some amazing studies of bodies in motion in the 1880's. Learn something new everyday.

Fred

BruceWright

05-30-2003, 02:28 PM

He added those extra vowels himself.

Poseur.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

hubbahbubbah

05-30-2003, 02:42 PM

pt, I'm glad you invited Andrew to the forum -- and now you see that he didn't do it 100% on purpose. A good lesson in not jumping to conclusions, I think.

Kudos for inviting him to the forums, though.

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::

05-30-2003, 02:46 PM

hubbah-

i think it's clear what his intentions were. he said it himself, go read the other posts.

btw, jack the owner is now demanding that andrew take down the video (he did) i think that sucks.

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

BruceWright

05-30-2003, 02:52 PM

Demanding?!!? On what legal grounds?

He videotaped an event in public.

Are Canada's laws significantly different in this regard from America? In America there's no way he would have to take that down.

I have a copy on my computer. Let Jack come and get it.

I think it shows that Jack is a lil bit worried about the public seeing how he runs his operation.

-Bruce Wright

Segway: Vehicle of Dream

GyroGo

05-30-2003, 03:11 PM

quote:Originally posted by Peter iNova

To do this right, he would have had to be another 6+ degrees leaning backwards. And you don't build that level of trust the first time you try this.

http://www.glidewalk.com/GWPix/OutsideTheEnvelope.jpg

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

The Neo Lesson:
Trust your control over the machine, trust the machine's consistency, enter the Matrix.

. . SegCenter.com (www.SegCenter.com) . .
StirlingInfo (www.StirlingInfo.com) StirlingChat (www.StirlingChat.com)

ftropea

05-30-2003, 03:46 PM

Actually Hubbah, I think pt got it right - again ..

Andrew intentionally tried to find the Seg's limits (Check his post - he admitted as much). What happens when you push the limits? You succeed.

About the video getting pulled...

I don't understand the pressure to do so. Can any Canadians enlighten us?

NoCan - did this guy *have* to remove the video? Is there some law/rule we don't know about?

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

BAEHRTIME

05-30-2003, 03:59 PM

racerxoffl, the link to SegwayCrash is unavailable or something. Could you please fix it - I'd love to see the video? Thanks, Micky

05-30-2003, 04:20 PM

micky-

it seems the owner of the rental place asked that video be removed (andrew took it down, the fellow who is in the video).

cheers,
pt

======================

segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com

other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com

hubbahbubbah

05-30-2003, 04:21 PM

quote:Originally posted by ftropea

Actually Hubbah, I think pt got it right - again ..

Andrew intentionally tried to find the Seg's limits (Check his post - he admitted as much). What happens when you push the limits? You succeed.

About the video getting pulled...

I don't understand the pressure to do so. Can any Canadians enlighten us?

NoCan - did this guy *have* to remove the video? Is there some law/rule we don't know about?

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)

Hey frank,

Not that it matters much, but I don't think pt got it right. Pt said:

" race3, he 100% meant "i'll make it" fall over."

Which is not what he meant. He meant that he'll follow the instructor's advice. Obviously, he was give bad avice, bad instruction, etc... But there was no ill will on his part -- which was the crux of my argument and the opposite of pt's...

I move to lock this thread now :)

Hubbah

::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::