View Full Version : people renting segways the wrong way? -bad for us?
here's quite a bit of opinion and controversy.
-for the last 6 months, i've used my ht without any problems, complaints, incidents or anything. now because some people who rent hts and used them in a recreational park, they've caught the attention of local officials and they're making sure no one uses hts in those areas. from what i was told the complaints came when persons whom rents them rode around the park(s).
-at this park, only human powered things are allowed, now they're going to enforce it because of the rental folks. sure a bike can go faster, sure a rollerblader can too, it doesn't matter, the park now makes it clear -human powered only-. i happen to agree with that too.
-the ht, in my opinion is not a recreational vehicle, it's to get from point a to point b, the concept of renting these escapes me. sure, touring, "seeing" one before you buy are all interesting things to consider, but there's also another motive-- money. folks who rent hts are in it to make money, i can respect that (yay! capitalism) but it could be at the expense of people like me going to and from work.
-renting the ht to someone basically means that someone has -not- gone through all the training that owners have, and the level of commitment (buying a ht, going to training, etc..) is not present. i personally do not want people who haven't gone through the proper training using hts, i don't think 30 minutes of training is enough to let someone loose. maybe it is, this is just my opinion.
-maybe rentals a year from now would be better once we gain acceptance (renting obviously isn't the best way in my area) right now it's forcing all sorts of decisions and i fear i have some fighting to do, and right now it's because of people who are buying hts and renting them.
here's an article about some renting that got me thinking:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/123682_segway27.html
i'm likely to change my mind, i'm curious what you folks think...this is how i feel this hour, on this this day.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
BruceWright
05-27-2003, 07:02 PM
Here's my thoughts. I haven't formed an opinion on this, but I do have some devil's advocate thoughts.
1. Aren't these really the same objections that Sidewalk activits have made? The "how do we know that the average person on a Segway can be safe? If the average person renting a Segway isn't safe, why have Segways?" Trusting strangers to be safe on Segways.
2. People rent cars, horses, trucks, campers, trailers, motorcycles, etc. Those are for money too (yay capitalism).
3. These are probably non red-keyers. Does that change the situation?
4. If someone gets hurt by a Segway rider, the rider and the rental company will get sued. Possibly the marketplace will decide if 1/2 hour is enough training for renters. I can picture that anti-Segway activists may flock to gliding areas to provoke an accident for profit's sake.
Anything bad that happens will be bad for private Segway owners, for sure.
On the other hand, if it turns out to be okay, well, it's good for Segways. These firms need to stress safety, because it's in our interests, too.
-Bruce Wright
Segway: Vehicle of Dream
Hi PT,
The only "human powered" park ordinance may be due to the fact that many park and bike trails use Federal TEA-21 funds that are restricted to "non-motorized" projects. The rentals simply brought the Segways to the attention of Park Management who may be afraid of loosing Federal funding. It would've happened eventually as the Segway population increases.
The funny thing is that TEA-21 funding restrictions were originally placed to alleviate air pollution. If you look at the FHWA postings you will see that electric wheelchairs AND electric bikes can be allowed on TEA-21 funded trails without disqualifying a project for additional federal funding. The only limitation is that electric bikes weight less than 100 pounds and have a top speed of less than 20 mph (these are of course well within Segway limits).
Sadly, the Federal Highways Administration does not mandate that park authorities ALLOW electric vehicles. It just states that funding will not be imperiled if electric bikes (that meet the criteria) are allowed. Therefore many park authorities simply ban ALL electric motorized vehicles (in addition to non electric) and that way they do not need to worry if the vehicles are compliant or not.
Most people strolling/jogging/skating through the park are not aware of TEA-21 mandates / restrictions / or spirit. They simply see posted signs that read "No Motorized Vehicles" and report Segway users as people violating the law.
(Even though they would not report an electric wheelchair user).
I see this as unfair myself since park and bike trails are wider and safer than sidewalks and Segways are much less intrusive than bikes and many human powered recreational vehicles.
The federal highways exceptions do not mention Segways since Segways were not available when the law was drafted. This is plainly a case where Segways fully comply with the "spirit" of the law but are too new to be included in the "letter" of the law.
I find this very frustrating since I would love to use my Segway on some wonderful bike trails near my home and can't.
My 2 cents.
Gus
bruce-
those are all great points, i thought about those as i typed up that post (and was going to start out in devil advocate mode as well). i'm really not sure what i think...but that said-
-sidewalks are not recreational parks.
-in my area some officials are now working to regulate the ht because of people who rent them, right or wrong -that- is the reason. it's not because of a private owner.
-i personally do not think 30 minutes is enough training.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
terryp
05-27-2003, 08:23 PM
pt -
I saw that article first thing this morning, and noticed that Parks & Recreation apparently isn't up to date on the EPAMD legislation. I've emailed one of the legislators responsible, as well as the director of Parks & Recreation about the misinformation, and intend to contact the P.I. too. Don't want anyone who read the article and sees me gliding the trail to think I'm doing so illegally.
I haven't made up my mind on the rental businesses yet, but if they cause any negative publicity that impacts the rest of us, it will make up my mind quickly.
Practicing Safe Segs in Seattle
GyroGo
05-27-2003, 08:29 PM
pt,
Segway is both a serious transportation solution AND a recreational vehicle. While we have so far seen the rental market in the USA focus on the recreation market, it is an incorrect assumption that rental will not help solve problems for commuters. We have seen the Keolis press release from Segway and I know of at least one similar plan in the US to solve the "last mile" commute.
Additionally, as I have stated before, I feel strongly about the rights of both people who wish to rent for their use and rent to others. Saying that owners need to be protected from renters behavior is treating renters as some sort of underclass. People should have the rights to use the Segway in the economical manner of their choice. Owners are not more deserving of the freedom to choose a Segway solution than a renter. It reminds me of the time when only property owners had a right to vote.
. . SegCenter.com (www.SegCenter.com) . .
StirlingInfo (www.StirlingInfo.com) StirlingChat (www.StirlingChat.com)
RAG1247
05-27-2003, 08:47 PM
imo, the primary problem with rental of segways (and I am not sure I am totally opposed to such rentals) is the greatly increased scrutiny and focus which becomes immediately directed towards segways. If one or two, or 5 people have a segway in a given area they are somehwat anonymous. If for example someone starts renting 20 units on ft lauderdale beach, segways will become noticed far quicker, and with such notice the chance (or need) for some municipality to investigate and possibly enact rules or look to restrict segway use.
pt: as far as the 30 minutes of instruction is concerned, you may not be familiar with the length of hands on instruction provided by segway. As an early winner you may have been given more time, but my training (actual hands on with black key only) was longer than 30 minutes but not by much (Brooster can confirm my memory).
Let's face it, most of us became experienced on our own after receipt. we received the bare basics at segway, with a small amount of hands on use.
I think that a slow roll out is one of LLC's plans to avoid large numbers of users in a given area overnight which might result in more regulation.
Richard
Ft. Lauderdale
http://www.sonyguy.com/stars_rag2.gif[/img=left] [i]If you can’t change the people around you, change the people around you
richard-
owners still had more time than 30 minutes, video, the manuals, etc... and when you get a segway ht, your first experiences are in your area- not in the center of a busy area and in a recreational park (like this example).
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
gyro-
i'm not sure how i feel yet, but so far:
-the parks dept have had complaints about people who rent hts, riding them in the park(s).
-the parks dept have now "regulated" the ht out of the park(s). they always were not allowed, now it's crystal clear.
-the city is now looking at regulating the ht in other areas specifically because of rentals.
-an article has some negative things in it about ht because of rentals.
if the rentals were a "last mile" solution and that was happening here that would be a different discussion, but it's not. these are rentals for non-transportation needs. maybe that will change, but for now this is what is going on.
i'm saying...segway rentals might not be good for most of us, here is some evidence. i'm curious what others think.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
dexter
05-27-2003, 09:46 PM
>>owners still had more time than 30 minutes, video, the manuals, etc... and when you get a segway ht, your first experiences are in your area- not in the center of a busy area and in a recreational park (like this example).
Yes. And most of us, I think, started very slowly and locally on our Segways, and worked up confidence to be able to ride them safely and comfortably at faster speeds, over greater terrain, and over larger distances.
The difference is we know we have a lifetime of Segging ahead of us, and we've made the big investment to make it worth our time to work our way up slowly. To keep our riding experience safe and to keep our Segways safe (because we own them!)
If, OTOH, we were given an opportunity to pay for a short period of time, (renting one for a half hour or two hours or whatever) wouldn't the natural instinct be to ride them as "hard" as possible? Not necessarily to be irresponsible with them, you'd still want to feel safe, but with so much less to lose, that fine line that lets you judge how fast you can go sure would be in a different place in space. Much more potential for accidents IMO.
The Segway has a strange learning curve. Like Othello "A Minute To Learn, A Lifetime To Master". That 30 minute demo/training certainly got you over the hump of learning to get on and off and the basic functions of riding... but how long did it take each person here to feel like they were really comfortable enough with it? Comfortable enough to feel safe to hop on one anywhere and ride safely?
I'm not saying that renters would be intentionally reckless, just that their mindset would be different having rented a short amount of time on it. And I think just the fact of them being available for rental sort of implies that "no experience" is necessary to master the Segway past that 30 minute training, and I for one think that is a very unrealistic idea.
I'd be happier if they rented them "for fun" rather than for touring a park. Let the renters ride around in a secure area. Give them a ticket to punch or something, after a certain amount of riding, they can "graduate" to a second tier and have an opportunity to rent them for "exploring". If people ask about the people riding around in the park, that's not available to the general public... but if you want to try a Segway you can rent one and try it our in our Segging area for a half-hour.
Dave C.
me: www.idexter.com
work: www.idealjacobs.com
play: www.nyline.org
ftropea
05-27-2003, 09:59 PM
OK, my turn :)
Well, like most things in life - there are benefits and disadvantages here..
Rentals are good because people can try Segs out for relatively little money. They can have fun.. share the fun with family/friends.. maybe use the rental experience to help them decide whether or not they want to buy a Seg for themselves.
Rentals are bad because those who rent have nothing to lose if they act in a manner that's perceived negatively by others. They still got their ride.. they didn't spend $5K.. they're insured by the rental company so may feel they're operating with a safety net.
I believe that these things find an equilibrium. If the actions of those who rent Segs cause bans/restrictions, then there will be less places where people can ride Segs for fun/recreation. More restrictions means renting Segs becomes less attractive. Less rentals means lower profits so the rental businesses get taken care of on the other side of the equation.
But maybe Rental companies will become proactive and implement some initiatives to prevent such occurrences. For example, perhaps they'll extend the training time from 1/2 hour to 1 hour or more.
So to me, the Rental Companies are like individual owners. If you lend your Seg out and that person does dumb things on it, it'll eventually come back to bite you.
The only problem is, and I think this is in line with pt's concerns, that eventually a Rental Co. recoups all of its investment (they hope) and possibly even profits from the whole rental business (yay capitalism.) But at the end of the day, if they're forced to close up shop because the business is shot (too many bans/restrictions), it's money made - they liquidate their assets - they move on to their next enterprise - while the individual private owner's Seg collects dust in the corner.
I think it's clear we as individual owners have a lot more at stake here. But just try convincing businesses that they should even care.
Regards,
Frank A. Tropea
[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)
fredkap
05-27-2003, 10:14 PM
I agree with most of the above comments. We rent cars but there are few places that rent a Ferrari. I can easily rent an inexpensive sailboat but a $50,000 boat doesn't hit the rental market. If I am going to rent a Segway for an hour, I am going to get the maximum bang for my hour which means pushing it to the extreme with absolutely no regard to the consequences. People rent bicycles because they all know how to ride them. Rentals should be limited to a controlled location so as to not ruin it for the rest of us. When I rent a go cart, they don't let me ride it outside the track. We will all be burned by the rental business which will also create the worst accidents.
Fred
but wait...there's more now.
q13 news, who did a cool and positive story on how i commute seems to be running a somewhat negative one tonight about where you can't use a segway (the parks) this was spawned from the rental issues in the papers today. i'll know more details at 10pm when the full story runs.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
mzokc
05-27-2003, 10:50 PM
When I talked to the mall staff, I suggested to them if they see a Segway then ask the rider, "Are you using the black key?"
Since the rental companies do not want to lose their ability to rent, using a key at the recommended speed will help. The slower speed may reduce repeat glides, but the rides will take longer - and that increases glide time and profit.
My major concern would be if someone stepped off the HT at our Bricktown canal system and let go. The Metro track wasn't under four feet of water! (Note the canal pictures in the following post.)
http://homepage.mac.com/mzokc/segway/PhotoAlbum67.html
Mark
wayne
05-27-2003, 11:20 PM
My opinion is that if someone wants to rent them that is their business. Sure there will be some problems at first but there always is.
As for some of the renters riding places they should not, I'm sure some of us are guilty of that also.
We can't control everyone so the best we can do is try to show the good side of the Segway to the public before a few bad apples shows the bad side.
I do believe anyone who invests 50k or more in a rental business is aware of problems that may come up and I'm sure they are going to do the best they can to keep problems down to a minimum.
As for the training, the seg is the easiest vehicle I have ever learned to operate in 5 minutes. Go-carts, bicycles, motor boats and motorcycle operators are the ones who need training. When a 6 year old kid can operate a seg in less that 3 minutes I don't believe that training should be that big of an issue after what they told you in training was something that could have been taught in 15 minutes. The most important thing is be a safe and responsible operator,that is the only issue that is really important. I do believe a owner of a rental business knows this and knows that his or her business depends on this.
So don't loose sleep over what someone else may do, just do your best at operating the Seg in a safe and responsible way and try your best to teach others the same.
Wayne
Seg-On to a safe and happy future on your Segway.
i'm not sure the folks starting rental businesses thought everything out. the folks renting hts in my area thought that riding in the park, advertising their rental service was okay, it wasn't-- now they can't and there are news articles and tv stories about it.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
GlideMaster
05-27-2003, 11:46 PM
Well not that it will make a difference but I feel that rentals should be used in a confined area cordoned off like a go cart track or some other configuration.
Also a few minutes of training is by no means enough for the delicate handling of a Segway. Anyone who thinks otherwise has never done much everyday gliding in the real world of a big city. The gliding of a Segway ALWAYS requires your undivided attention.
<center>The GlideMaster</center>
<center>http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete/1267/gif/segway.gif</center>
<center>If You’re Not Graceful In Your Glide, You Must Just Be Out For A Ride. </center>
<center>Responsible Riders Ride Segway and Segway Riders Ride Responsibly</center>
<center>Glide On</center>
terryp
05-28-2003, 12:28 AM
One of the local renters is a member here. I wonder if he's monitoring this thread and would care to share his views.
Practicing Safe Segs in Seattle
Sunday
05-28-2003, 12:38 AM
So how long did it take everyone to learn how to drive a car? I suspect it was longer than 30 minutes. It took me longer than 30 minutes to learn to ride a bicycle too. Seems to me that renting HT's is a very bad idea. I can easily envision a room with a TV and a bunch of chairs. People interested in renting the HT are told to watch the video, sign a release, and then shown how to operate the HT. Then they're off! Hootin' and hollerin' down the sidewalks and through the parks. Then, before anyone can do anything about it, they're banned.
Sunday
pdantic
05-28-2003, 12:38 AM
Good comment, GlideMaster!
I've often felt that it would be a good idea to set up a national training / rental registry with a transferable "user rating" card. If someone wants to just try a Segway, they get a short training session and can navigate around a confined area with a black key. They get a card from the rental business stating that they've taken the initial training and have spent a certain amount of time on the HT. If they go to another rental site, they just pull out the rating card and can skip the training the next time. After a certain amount of ride time on the black key, they can get a "stamp" for the right to use the yellow key on certain pre-arranged paths in the area. After more hours of ride time on the yellow key, the rider could finally move up to red key roaming on city sidewalks and prove to any rental agency that he/she has the ability and experience to use an HT under those conditions.
Of course, this would require anyone who is setting up an HT rental firm to be part of the national "rating" organization and all of those rental companies would have to agree to follow the same set of rules... It would be much less work to just make sure that people act responsibly on rental HTs, but that's contrary to human nature!
Steve
The Joy of Segs: http://www.joyofsegs.com
another station picked up the "no segways allowed" story because of the rentals.
http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_052703WABsegway.5f6054ad.html
so that's the 2 big newspapers and the 2 big local networks here. the last time all these media outlets did a story on the ht was when it was about a guy who gave up a car (me) now it's a story about banning them around the recreational park.
..the people who are renting these according to the article says it's doing everything it can to work with city officials.
wouldn't this be what you'd find out before you bought 10 hts and started renting them?
the greenlake park has a big circle around a lake...so, ht owners would ride around in circles while 99% of the other folks use the park for cycling, jogging, etc...? i jog and cycle there, i'm not sure why anyone would want to go around in circles on a ht. i'm pretty sure the folks renting are going to get hassled.
i'm recording the stories that should be on in an hour or so.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
sfh1790
05-28-2003, 01:24 AM
pt -
I share your concerns. Any new technology has a certain time to be accepted...or discredited. We live in an age when "spin" is everything.
As it happens, I live a few blocks from the park pt talks about, and am probably the only daily Segway user in the local area. I've talked to dozens of people in the neighborhood, and feel like I've made a personal investment in this new technology.
The Segway rental business is a quick-buck operation, IMO. It isn't about exploring transportation alternatives (as with the Keolis group in France). It seems to be about using the "wow" factor to make a short-term profit.
I would urge the members of this mailing list to remember that we have a unique opportunity to fix the image of an important and innovative transportation technology in the public mind.
Let's not throw it away.
sfh1790
sheng@drizzle.com
sfh1790-
i'm waiting to see the news coverage tonight, i might contact you and the other seattle / wa owners to see what we can do if action is needed. i also plan to visit these folks this weekend and say hi, i want to make sure i have all the facts.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
jwood
05-28-2003, 01:52 AM
I have to admit I had thoughts about a rental business before training last December. Those thoughts quickly disappeared after learning how to ride. I can't imagine letting people loose in public after only 30 minutes of orientation. In an enclosed area it might not be a bad idea, and I've heard there's a company doing this. Maybe rental companies could require 2 hours of 'supervised' rentals before allowing renters to go off on their own?
PS. I feel sorry for you PT. No problems here back East in NH.
jwood-
i think most people who use a ht for any amount of time agree with what you posted (i do). i'n not sure why folks think renting hts is a good idea (but i plan to chat with some soon). i suppose the market will quickly decide what makes sense, so far this place at greenlake can't have their renters go to the place they planned to.
i'm not not worried about it- this is likely to end quickly with some strict rules about parks (which make sense) but i think the last 6 months of amazing gliding to and from work is about to change a bit and us segway ht commuters in seattle are about to have some work to do to rebuild some perceptions.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
ftropea
05-28-2003, 02:08 AM
Most Seg owners agree there are at least 3 or 4 different stages a new rider goes through...
1 - Initial unsteadiness - first learning how to orient yourself to the machine.
2 - Cautious and slightly confident - rider can control forward/back movement and turn.
3 - Overconfidence - rider zips around a lot quicker but is prone to put him/herself into a unstable position by turning incorrectly or encountering an obstacle/unexpected condition.
4 - Cautious yet confident - rider has a good understanding of Seg's capabilities and has mastered the black (beginners) key.
So I guess my question is, how long does it take the average rider to get to stage 4? I've given over 1,000 demos and most people I've taught to ride walk away with some proficiency at stage 2. I estimate based on my experience that it would take me about an hour to one hour and a half to get someone proficient - to stage 4 - where I would trust them around other people on their own (using black key).
I also think, from what I've heard about these 1/2 hr rental trainings, that people are walking away before they experience stage 3 - overconfidence. It may be that due to the nature of the rental time frame, Seg renting customers may not experience obstacles/unexpected conditions until they start Segging in the "real world" - and it also sounds like this is happening around pedestrians (woman/children/elderly) which is the last place you want to "practice" on your Seg.. especially in the beginning.
What do you think?
Regards,
Frank A. Tropea
[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)
i would never let anyone use my ht alone no matter how much i trained them to glide around the areas that the rental place in greenlake is letting folks. i might let someone glide around in a controlled closed off area after 2 hours of training, but i'd need to be there at all times and i'd also need to know the person fairly well.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
PT:
Now is the best time to do that survey/petition that we talked about a while ago before it's too late. Now that this issue of banning has come up in your own backyard.
Don't be fearful. You have everyone here backing you up.
Just give the freedom to anyone who is willing to use the Segway via purchase or rental. This is America you know, land of the free. :)
BruceWright
05-28-2003, 02:38 AM
I let close friends glide up and down an empty block on black key after they've been under my direct supervision for 15-20 minutes, but only if I'm comfortable that I've put the fear of Seg in them about overconfidence.
It sounds like these guys hosed themselves when it comes to finding a place where they could rent Segs. They'll probably lose some hefty money relocating because they didn't get clearance before they started. They sound fly-by-night, or at least naiive.
On the flip side of the issue, local businesses whose livelihood depends on Segways being allowed in areas can do all Segwayers some good, as they have the ear of politicians. I feel like small-business owners have more of a say with the current administration than clean-air commuters.
-Bruce Wright
Segway: Vehicle of Dream
Private Pile
05-28-2003, 02:42 AM
My two cents. This is all too bad. It bums me out that the renters are there to make a quick buck. That said... it also bums me out that there is a hard and fast rule/law that only people using the park for jogging/cycling are entitled to do so. Why shouldn't someone who wanted to glide around it be able to? Something that, yes, I love to do for pure fun. Not all of us bought our Segways to commute to and from work. Some of us did buy it for (shocker) pure pleasure. That it has been more than I hoped, that it has replaced my car on short trips, is a great bonus. That I worry about my right to use it being taken away from me is something I didn't consider before purchasing.
As PT did on his original post, I'm typing this without really thinking out all the issues. It does seem to me that the renters in the park just sped up a process that will inevitably happen as more Segways are purchased. People WILL go out searching for interesting places to ride just for the fun of it. The fact that some use it mainly to commute does not make their right to glide any more important than anyone else's, again in my opinion. This may be a hard fact to digest. It seems that a few want to say, "hey, I'm using this for a good reason, and you're just getting your jollies. You need to give up your right, so I can have mine." Is this where we're headed? I hope not. I hope that there's room out there for all of us. Okay, forgive the stream-of-consciousness. I'm tired and cranky.
no fear here-- in fact, here comes something. i don't agree with a petition / survey approach, sorry. and if i was going to do one, it would to prohibit the rental of segway hts in my area.
cheers,
pt
quote:Originally posted by vpv PT:
Now is the best time to do that survey/petition that we talked about a while ago before it's too late. Now that this issue of banning has come up in your own backyard.
Don't be fearful. You have everyone here backing you up.
Just give the freedom to anyone who is willing to use the Segway via purchase or rental. This is America you know, land of the free. :)
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
LarryL
05-28-2003, 02:50 AM
I have been away from the computer all day so I am just now seeing this. I am amazed at what I’m reading. Are these comments against renting Segways being rented really here – and posted by Segway owners?
As one of the owners of the largest fleet of Segways for rent in the country at Fun Transport in Spokane, I have to get my two cents in here and perhaps let you in on a little more of what is going on with the industry.
First, let’s clear up that if there were no Segway Rental Centers around at all and instead sales were considerably higher, as we all had thought and hoped for, you would see more Segways around in the parks and other public places than you do with rental companies. The same people complaining now would be complain and trying to get the Segways banned. It really has NOTHING to do with the Rental of Segways. Remember, San Francisco banned them before they were even available to purchase!
Second, anyone who went to the regular Segway training must admit that it wasn’t much of a preparation for riding in the real world. I went to the Seattle training and watched a video, took at test that they didn’t even grade, got 15 minutes of one on one training on how to start and stop, do a figure 8 and go around a few cones. I was then let go with no other training. Off to wait for a week before my Segway got to me and had to then learn it all over again on my own.
At Fun Transport training, you are required to watch the Safety section of the Segway training video then go through a very through training on maneuvering around not only a cone course, but how to navigate up inclines, curbs (which are not covered anywhere in the training from Segway) as well as power stops. Very good control is what is always looked for and if you can’t pass, you can’t rent. Renters are then, in my opinion, more trained than I was when I left training. Not renters are allowed to go out on a smooth trail environment, on the black key only, and they have a ball. They are safe and they can come back and talk to us about the experience, ask more questions, get more training, and go out more if they wish. As they progress by renting more they are allowed to move up to the yellow key. In the park environment they would not be allowed beyond the yellow key unless they are on our Glided Tour© where we have them in our control. These people are much safer than I was when I got my Segway. We have had hundreds of them rented out now in the park and have not had one complaint to the park, city, police or to us.
While we are talking about training let’s comparing it to other things, let’s look at what it takes to rent a snowmobile, speed boat, Sea Doo or many other very fast and potentially dangerous vehicles. NO TRAINING is done in most cases. They ask you a few questions, show you a few things and you’re off on your own. I even rented a tractor one time that was large enough for my family of 4 to sit in the enclosed cab and I had less than 5 minutes of training on it and had never touched on in my life. Was that safe?
Safety MUST BE the primary aspect of renting a Segway. Yes, it is very different than anything else we have ever tried, but we all know it is very easy to learn. You don’t have to master it to ride it and enjoy it.
My partner and I had dinner with Dean Kamen on Friday night in Berkeley because of our Rental business and our plans. Safety was also the biggest thing he stressed. We talked for a long time about our training and our safety issues. He was very pleased to hear all that we do and require.
Like it or not, Segway rentals are here and here to stay. Just like bike rentals, when they first started in Riverfront Park and on the Centennial Trail, they had lots of complaints and everyone was up in arms about them because they were so fast and caused so many problems. Now those people, who worked hard to finally be allowed to enjoy these areas the way they wanted to enjoy them, must allow the Segway as well. I would venture to say this same sort of situation happened in almost every park setting that has a lot of people on any type of trails or walkways. The walkers don’t like the runners. The runners don’t like the bikers and now none of them like the Segways We are all here to enjoy these areas and we all pay our taxes to do so in our own way. There will always be less Segways in these areas than there are bikers, walkers and joggers. Just because one group of people doesn’t like what a new group does, they do not have the right to get them banned.
Riverfront Park had the same restrictions as you are talking about in Seattle and most other large parks – no motorized vehicles – we worked with the city and made sure that the law really didn’t apply to a Segway before doing anything. We worked with the city and the park board to ensure that we met all their safety requirements. We worked with the police department to make sure they knew what we were doing. It’s important to do it right and that is a big concern with people opening rental agencies and having no control or regulations.
At this time, Fun Transport is working with over 20 people to open rental centers around the country and more are being added every day. We are working our very strict regulations on what must be done in a city before we will even look at them for a rental center. We will also be very picky about who the owners are to ensure they will adhere to our regulations. The Fun Transport Segway Training and Rental Centers will be a chain that holds to strict safety standards and issues a Gliders License that will be accepted at all Fun Transport offices. There is also a National database of renters through Fun Transport so that any office can look up the history of a rider just like the DMV before renting. Fun Transport will be working closely with the Segway legislative teams to ensure we are doing everything right in every city and with the other Segway teams to make sure we are always current on the newest ways to be safe. This is the only way we can be assured that this industry can be regulated and safe for everyone. There are a lot of plans in the works for the industry as it starts to grow that can only benefit everyone involved. But it MUST be regulated, and that’s where we hope to fit in.
I apologize for my ramblings here, but I think it is important to know that these problems are not the cause of rental companies, but because the Segways are new, unknown and therefore not wanted. But just like the bike and rollerblades, once people get used them they will be just another fixture in the parks with well trained renters and owners gliding together with the walkers, joggers, bikers, rollerbladers, skateboarders, and who knows what will be next.
OH, I just looked to see another post about this being a “Quick-Buck Operation.” Don’t believe it. We are in this for the long haul. We have invested lots of money, time and effort into making this a very viable, long term investment into the future. AND since you are bringing up France – NO TRAINING REQUIRED that I can see – to rent from the Keolis group. Insert your credit card, take out your Segway, look over the short explanation on the wall and off you go. We are also setting this type of system up in NY, Chicago and several other large cities and will REQUIRE the EVERYONE be trained. If I was in it for the quick buck, I would have rented to the guy who called me today wanting one for a week for a convention in Denver, but I didn’t because I couldn’t train him. It was good money that was turned down due to SAFETY!
Larry
Private Pile
05-28-2003, 02:56 AM
Awesome, Larry! Sounds like you are class all the way and I commend you.
larry-
just to be clear, i think rentals might be bad for current owners. and right now i'm only looking at the greenlake rental biz. i hope to learn more, but in the last 24 hours there has been more negative press about the ht than the last 6 months here in seattle, all around rentals.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
the theme of the q13 broadcast was "the segway is expensive, now you can rent one...but you can't use it here..."
here are some quotes that i jotted down.
"...one the most popular parks may be swarming with the segway super scooters"
"..beware you can't ride them everywhere".
craig vinton rents them out for $45 per hour.
but don't use them on the trail, it'll cost you $500 if you're caught.
sarah powers rents them $40.
the city "isn't buying it"....
human powered and artificially powered are not to be mixed...
"...kinda stupid, i want to exercise" says one walker.
there was a woman from the city that seemed really mad about the hts doing most of the quotes from the city.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
Larry:
I second the motion.. excellent point..
Segway is here to stay whether it is rented or purchased.
So.. to all Segway users.. let's all get along and be more cohesive and organized.. We have a greater enemy out there to tackle (anti-seggers) than our petty bickering among ourselves..
BruceWright
05-28-2003, 03:24 AM
I think Larry's doing it the right way. The company in Seattle's doing it the wrong way.
-Bruce Wright
Segway: Vehicle of Dream
larry, i sent you a private note-- it sounds to me like you're taking a serious approach on this and that's really good. i need to look at what happened today and form an opinion, what you posted is very helpful.
quote:Originally posted by LarryL Are these comments against renting Segways being rented really here – and posted by Segway owners?
owner's opinions are pretty valued i would think? right?
quote:Originally posted by LarryL First, let’s clear up that if there were no Segway Rental Centers around at all and instead sales were considerably higher, as we all had thought and hoped for, you would see more Segways around in the parks and other public places than you do with rental companies.
i wasn't hoping for more sales, this is month 2 of a consumer release. most of the owners i know, stay out of parks. having 10 segway hts in a park will (and did) cause the city i live in to take some quick actions. if this was a private owner, you might have a warning or action on a case by case issue, but now...every newspaper and tv station ran a story about banning the ht because of rentals.
quote:Originally posted by LarryL The same people complaining now would be complain and trying to get the Segways banned. It really has NOTHING to do with the Rental of Segways. Remember, San Francisco banned them before they were even available to purchase!
i think it's safe to say i really like the segway ht. but opening a rental business and having people glide in parks, to me, isn't helpful to current owners. my evidence is the 2 major papers and the 2 tv stations here covering the "ban" in the park.
quote:Originally posted by LarryL Second, anyone who went to the regular Segway training must admit that it wasn’t much of a preparation for riding in the real world. I went to the Seattle training and watched a video, took at test that they didn’t even grade, got 15 minutes of one on one training on how to start and stop, do a figure 8 and go around a few cones. I was then let go with no other training. Off to wait for a week before my Segway got to me and had to then learn it all over again on my own.
i sat in seattle class, it was much longer than that. while you waited that week you had the video, the manual and the investment. then when you got your ht, it wasn't in the middle of greenlake park or in the town, it was at your house and in your area.
quote:Originally posted by LarryL At Fun Transport training, you are required to watch the Safety section of the Segway training video then go through a very through training on maneuvering around not only a cone course, but how to navigate up inclines, curbs (which are not covered anywhere in the training from Segway) as well as power stops. Very good control is what is always looked for and if you can’t pass, you can’t rent. Renters are then, in my opinion, more trained than I was when I left training. Not renters are allowed to go out on a smooth trail environment, on the black key only, and they have a ball. They are safe and they can come back and talk to us about the experience, ask more questions, get more training, and go out more if they wish. As they progress by renting more they are allowed to move up to the yellow key. In the park environment they would not be allowed beyond the yellow key unless they are on our Glided Tour© where we have them in our control. These people are much safer than I was when I got my Segway. We have had hundreds of them rented out now in the park and have not had one complaint to the park, city, police or to us.
this is great to hear and i'm also sure you worked closely with the town, etc..? this sounds like a great approach, in fact all the press i read about fun transport has been 100% positive. i'm not sure the folks in seattle worked with the city as you did, but i'll find out when i chat with them.
quote:Originally posted by LarryL Like it or not, Segway rentals are here and here to stay. Just like bike rentals, when they first started in Riverfront Park and on the Centennial Trail, they had lots of complaints and everyone was up in arms about them because they were so fast and caused so many problems. Now those people, who worked hard to finally be allowed to enjoy these areas the way they wanted to enjoy them, must allow the Segway as well. I would venture to say this same sort of situation happened in almost every park setting that has a lot of people on any type of trails or walkways. The walkers don’t like the runners. The runners don’t like the bikers and now none of them like the Segways We are all here to enjoy these areas and we all pay our taxes to do so in our own way. There will always be less Segways in these areas than there are bikers, walkers and joggers. Just because one group of people doesn’t like what a new group does, they do not have the right to get them banned. .
that sounds great but...the hts are not allowed at greenlake and the state law says the parks -can- regulate the ht use all they want (and they did). if rentals cause me not to be able to use my ht like i have for the last 6 months, i'll do what i can to make sure my rights are protected too.
quote:Originally posted by LarryL Riverfront Park had the same restrictions as you are talking about in Seattle and most other large parks – no motorized vehicles – we worked with the city and made sure that the law really didn’t apply to a Segway before doing anything. We worked with the city and the park board to ensure that we met all their safety requirements. We worked with the police department to make sure they knew what we were doing. It’s important to do it right and that is a big concern with people opening rental agencies and having no control or regulations.
this sounds like the proper approach, to me it doesn't seem possible that the folks at greenlake did, otherwise there wouldn't be this action from the city.
thanks again for this post larry, it seems there are ways to rent hts and there are other ways to rent hts.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
bicycledriver
05-28-2003, 03:27 AM
What are the specific interactions between Segway renters and other park users that has raised objections to Segway use? How are these different from bicycle use or skate use?
quote:Originally posted by BruceWrightI think Larry's doing it the right way. The company in Seattle's doing it the wrong way.
that's where i think i'll end up. i want to chat with the seattle folks and see what the deal is.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
hubbahbubbah
05-28-2003, 03:31 AM
Larry, it sounds like you thought things out carefully and acted likewise. I'm in agreement with your post -- good luck!!!
pt, I think you're overreacting. I think Larry had a good point that people are getting upset because they are seeing more Segways -- not because they are being rented. If they saw owners gliding around the parks, I think they would be just as upset. Though really -- I don't even believe they're upset, local TV news is worthless and I wouldn't listen to them.
Importantly, I think we need to realize that Segways do not have one particular purpose in life. pt, you've been a model Segway-er, but I don't think you can tell people what to do with it. You can show them, but you can't ask them to use it like you do. Some people will use it for their commute, some for fun, some as a mobility aid, some for dancing (yes, there are those who dance with it.)
What makes one use more valid than the other, pt? I just don't see an answer to that question. Technologies have a life of their own.
I think we should sit back and let the Segway carve out its own niche, let users discovers unique uses for themselves. Let's trust people! Let's see where this thing goes.
Hubbah
p.s. And one more thing -- to address the question posed in the title of this thread. I think Segway rentals are great for us, if we want Segway LLC to sell a lot of these things. People who go on test drives at car dealerships are very likely to buy. People who have actually tried this $5,000 gizmo will be a lot more likely to purchase, than those who've merely seen them. Segway rental stations may well turn out to be Segway sales booths in disguise!
::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::
quote:Originally posted by bicycledriver What are the specific interactions between Segway renters and other park users that has raised objections to Segway use? How are these different from bicycle use or skate use?
steve- i bike, jog and skate at the park. the park officials feel that only human powered means should be allowed and the law as it's written allows them to do just that (and they did). it might be a simple matter of the rental company -not- working with them as larry in spokane did and when 10 hts rolled in, they freaked.
"(c) A state agency or local government may regulate the operation of an EPAMD within the boundaries of any area used for recreation, open space, habitat, trails, or conservation purposes. +}"
it's very common for human powered means to zip past people at well over 25 mph in the park, it's not about safety-- if it was, they wouldn't allow most of the things around the park, it's more about human powered vs. other powered, right or wrong that's what it is.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
i don't see any problems with what larry's endeavor. and if i did it doesn't matter because it's not up to me, nor should it be. but-- i can and will post my experiences (good and bad) here, you're free to skip over them. in the last 24 hours i've seen more bad press about the ht in my area than the last 6 months, all because of rentals, specifically how one place approached renting hts. i'm willing to bet my commute tommorrow will be the first time i get a negative comment in my 6 months / 850 miles. i've had a good run, maybe it's time i get a few :-]
as far as telling others what to do, i'm pointing out what rentals did in my community, people are free to figure out what that means to them and form their own opinions.
here's what i think, if a biz in your community doesn't approach rentals in the way larry did, bans-ville, population you.
if dancing hts are what it's going to be, great...but i refuse to -not- express my thoughts and i'm not going to sit back. it works both ways :-]
cheers,
pt
quote:Originally posted by hubbahbubbah Larry, it sounds like you thought things out carefully and acted likewise. I'm in agreement with your post -- good luck!!!
pt, I think you're overreacting. I think Larry had a good point that people are getting upset because they are seeing more Segways -- not because they are being rented. If they saw owners gliding around the parks, I think they would be just as upset. Though really -- I don't even believe they're upset, local TV news is worthless and I wouldn't listen to them.
Importantly, I think we need to realize that Segways do not have one particular purpose in life. pt, you've been a model Segway-er, but I don't think you can tell people what to do with it. You can show them, but you can't ask them to use it like you do. Some people will use it for their commute, some for fun, some as a mobility aid, some for dancing (yes, there are those who dance with it.)
What makes one use more valid than the other, pt? I just don't see an answer to that question. Technologies have a life of their own.
I think we should sit back and let the Segway carve out its own niche, let users discovers unique uses for themselves. Let's trust people! Let's see where this thing goes.
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
hubbahbubbah
05-28-2003, 03:51 AM
quote:Originally posted by pt
as far as telling others what to do, i'm pointing out what rentals did in my community, people are free to figure out what that means to them and form their own opinions.
[...]
if dancing hts are what it's going to be, great...but i refuse to -not- express my thoughts and i'm not going to sit back. it works both ways :-]
cheers,
pt
Hey pt,
I'm not suggesting that you sit back and do nothing, nor that you stop letting people know what you think the best way to use the ht is. Either of those suggestions would be quite naive of me... :)
What I am saying is that different uses of the HT are inevitable. Thus, I think campaigning for a particular way of using the HT is somewhat of a thankless job. Trying to find the common thread among the different uses -- namely that the HT is cool and quite harmless -- may be better (for everyone), than trying to find the 'right' use and discouraging the 'wrong' ones.
Hubbah
::: http://stinkyshorts.blogspot.com :::
billc
05-28-2003, 03:53 AM
IMHO the exposure that Segway will get will in the longer term be a good thing. I would like to see an innovative approach to distribution. This is an entitrely new technology and asking people to pay 5K to just try it is a risky business startegy. The rental may work and then spin to sales....It 's not much different to the "RollerBlade" expoerience of the late eighties where that company put ythere product at Venice beach and such places and maximiwed it's exposure...yes and with major safety risks.
Nots syaing that what's happening is ideal. In fact the rental issue is always complicated regardless of the device,BUT add the training that is given for Segway and there are a few more potholes.
(Yes I know it sounds a bit like I'm sitting on the fence!)
Basically - I think it's a good thing! (yes I've tried a Segway and I would love to try it some more)
The bad press is a good indicator of it's success!!!
Why?? Well that's the way the press works! Would you buy or read an article that says that someonne had a Segway and was happy with it and had or caused no problems??? - No....so there has to be an angle...no point using the kiddie dying of cancer or other well worn angles on stories so have to do the old "while everyone believes this is good it is actually insipid or evil"......
(so it has to be good in the first place)
..others are:
Milk causes cancer
Internet triggers serial killer
Mobile phones give you tumours
TV damaging children's IQ
Segways are really very dangerous
etc..
(please feel free to list)
Bill Contoyannis
Manager / Rehabilitation Engineer, REHAB Tech
Centre for Biomedical Engineering - Monash University
well-- it's interesting, when i started bookofseg.com and when i started posted here i never wanted to be thanked for anything (still don't) so i don't mind promoting what i think helps current and future segway owners the most.
i don't believe in right and wrong (in the scenario) only what consequences are of people's actions.
today, there were lots of consequences of a biz in seattle that rents segway hts. were those consequences helpful or harmful for owners in my area? that's up to them to figure out.
what's going to happen next? i'm not entirely sure, for now the city is posting signs in the park.
no segways allowed.
this wasn't because of a private owner, it was because of a rental company.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
toybuilder
05-28-2003, 04:19 AM
We are in an early period of the technology, when both the legal and social framework for Segways are still immature. If you look at the early literature on cars, the same thing happened -- there were people driving cars on the boardwalks to avoid getting stuck in the mud, and those drivers would inevitably have people scream at them to get a horse.
It took a while for a nationally organized system of car operation to form.
pt's point is very valid, though -- California apparently was threatened enough by motorized skateboards to pass a Motorized Skateboard prohibition (vc 21968) with an urgency clause. This probably happened because there was a mushrooming of motorized skateboards in many hands of young owners.
Still, given that Segways are priced a bit out of reach of Joe Average, I don't think Segway ownership will be looked upon as reaching epdemic proportions.
For now, it might be good to let the early users (even including rental users) make some mistakes and build up a collective knowledge of the right way to ride Segways. In the long term, society will have to adjust and develop the right set of legal and social rules.
http://www.pasadenasegway.com
LarryL
05-28-2003, 05:03 AM
Once again, I have to say that it isn't the renters; in this case it is sounds like it was the rental company. If they didn't go to the city and park board first they caused the problem, not the renters or the ability to rent or the training or anything really to do with the Segway. This is why the industry needs regulation and needs to go through a central agency to make sure we don't cause these problems for everyone else. It doesn't sound like they did any homework on this at all. I don't know anything about them or their operation even though we are in the same state. I will try to find out though. This hurts everyone.
I have worked for over a year to put this company and the processes together and make sure it is done right and now it is paying off. We have been operating for a month now with no problem and have Segways all over the park every weekend. The people love it. The park officials love it. There are no problems. Not one old lady or child has been run over. It will, more than likely, happen at some point. But things happen with everything. I had to call 911 for a bike accident in the park on Saturday where two bikes crashed and one guy ended up with a head injury. But it doesn't always mean it was the fault of the bike, skateboard or Segway. Not even the rider in some cases. Things just happen with anything. We just have to be sure we do all we can do to properly work with cities and make sure people are trained as well as possible before riding or renting anywhere.
I want Segways to be the new means of transportation. Not just for rental, even though I have a lot invested in the industry that I am helping to create. I think it is a fantastic invention and I love riding mine for transportation needs as well as pleasure.
One other way we are trying to ensure people don't cause problems is a Segway Friendly Building sticker that businesses will put in their store window by the door so we know if they will allow us to bring them into their stores or not. Every business within a 1 mile radius of our rental centers gets a letter letting them know what we are doing and what to watch out for. They also have a direct number to the owner of that rental center to notify them if they seen anyone not being safe. We want to enhance the cities not hurt them.
I know I'm rambling, but this is serious to everyone, not just my rental company and everyone needs to understand that more than likely the problems in Seattle could have been avoided had the right steps been taken.
Larry
toybuilder
05-28-2003, 05:13 AM
quote:Originally posted by LarryL
Every business within a 1 mile radius of our rental centers gets a letter letting them know what we are doing and what to watch out for. They also have a direct number to the owner of that rental center to notify them if they seen anyone not being safe. We want to enhance the cities not hurt them.
Bravo! I'm standing up as I type this.
http://www.pasadenasegway.com
well said larry, i'm really glad you're leading the way and *hopefully* this seattle thing will quickly get resolved.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
LarryL
05-28-2003, 10:12 AM
I just turned on the news and they just banned dogs in the park during major events - and they don't even rent dogs there. Imagine that!
Larry
GlideMaster
05-28-2003, 10:31 AM
pdantic I agree with the idea of a rating card or; I hate to say it (a form of license or permit). It may come to that in some cities or states.
<center>The GlideMaster</center>
quote:Originally posted by pdantic
Good comment, GlideMaster!
I've often felt that it would be a good idea to set up a national training / rental registry with a transferable "user rating" card. If someone wants to just try a Segway, they get a short training session and can navigate around a confined area with a black key. They get a card from the rental business stating that they've taken the initial training and have spent a certain amount of time on the HT. If they go to another rental site, they just pull out the rating card and can skip the training the next time. After a certain amount of ride time on the black key, they can get a "stamp" for the right to use the yellow key on certain pre-arranged paths in the area. After more hours of ride time on the yellow key, the rider could finally move up to red key roaming on city sidewalks and prove to any rental agency that he/she has the ability and experience to use an HT under those conditions.
Of course, this would require anyone who is setting up an HT rental firm to be part of the national "rating" organization and all of those rental companies would have to agree to follow the same set of rules... It would be much less work to just make sure that people act responsibly on rental HTs, but that's contrary to human nature!
Steve
The Joy of Segs: http://www.joyofsegs.com
RAG1247
05-28-2003, 10:48 AM
In my opinion, the issue here is not the fact that rentals of segways causes the problem but the fact that such rentals all of a sudden introduce a large number of segway hts in one area.
Most of us ride our segways either for commuting or recreational use and in most cases never pass another unit going the other way (except in cases of planned meetings of segway users in a given area).
In the rental scenario you overnight have 5 or 10 or 20 or more units in a specific geographical area which then brings immediate notice to a lot of people, more so than if they see a single user going down the street occasionally. The majority of residents in an area have never seen a segway and now they might see 20 at a time.
The same scenario might hold true if all of a sudden 37 ht’s were purchased in my specific geographical area. The added exposure unfortunately may give reason then for municipalities to look to control their use and for the average citizen to fear them (or be somewhat envious of their use).
I don’t think the safety issue is a major factor and we have seen many posts of individual segway users here in the forum which might indicate that safety is not foremost in their mind. While some would like to emphasize a more nobler use of the segway (such as commuting to work and replacing using their auto as opposed to recreational use) might make a difference, it probably doesn’t (otherwise motorized skateboarders would emphasize that they use their skateboard for commuting).
Imo, this seems to support the apparent LLC philosophy of having a slow roll out.
I don’t have an answer, but expect that these issues may heat up more and more as the segway population increases.
Richard
Ft. Lauderdale
http://www.sonyguy.com/stars_rag2.gif[/img=left] [i]If you can’t change the people around you, change the people around you
ftropea
05-28-2003, 10:59 AM
As I said earlier in this thread, rentals can be good and bad..
The benefits of renting are obvious. For example, almost everyone thinks it's cool that people can try before they buy and all that stuff..
However, there are certain unavoidable realities that we must keep in mind:
- The time it takes to become proficient at riding a Segway HT varies for each individual. Accordingly, any pre-determined training period (whether it be 1/2hr or 3 hrs) will be "too short" for some, "just right" for others and "too long" for a few.
- The "rental mentality" + "Segway HT" may not be a good combination. I say this because once the training/orientation is over, the clock starts ticking off the renting customer's Seg time and they feel an urgent need to "use" the thing they've rented. This sense of urgency or rushed time doesn't exist for Seg owners because we've got all the time we wish to spend in order to become proficient at riding. That's the luxury of ownership I suppose.
- Generally, most Seg renters won't be "studying the guide before they ride" so most will be unfamiliar with the many tips, DOs and DON'Ts described in the accompanying manuals. Some, maybe most, will never even see the video.
- Once those who rent start Segging, the question becomes "where?" do they go? In fairness to them, I don't blame them for heading to the parks. They're looking for wide open spaces and a place where they can really feel a Seg out - push its capabilities. Again, the clock is running and they feel a special urgency to squeeze a lifetime's worth of experience into a 1 or 2 hour timeframe.
By the way, you can rent nail guns.. jackhammers.. and floor sanders..
All these things are very dangerous if not used properly. They rent them out anyway...
Thankfully, those things are used in the confines of a private space so the risk to others is low. However, as we've already learned, public places like parks are where some Seg renting customers are going to play with their Segs...
So what's the solution?
Maybe the park ban is the only way to go.
And just to reiterate something I said earlier...
I believe that these things find an equilibrium. If the actions of those who rent Segs cause bans/restrictions, then there will be less places where people can ride Segs for fun/recreation. More restrictions means renting Segs becomes less attractive. Less rentals means lower profits so the rental businesses get taken care of on the other side of the equation.
So it's incumbent upon the first rental companies to decide now whether or not they're interested in long term business. The first rental companies are equivalent to the first Seg owners - accordingly, some will assume the role of "ambassadorship" and some, probably most, will focus on their near term, self interests.
Regards,
Frank A. Tropea
[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)
bicycledriver
05-28-2003, 11:23 AM
quote:Originally posted by pt
it's very common for human powered means to zip past people at well over 25 mph in the park, it's not about safety-- if it was, they wouldn't allow most of the things around the park, it's more about human powered vs. other powered, right or wrong that's what it is.
Interesting - the bias in the park appears to be that high speed use of bicycles is acceptable not because of safety reasons, but because human power means that bicycles provide a health/fitness benefit. The advantages of encouraging health/fitness are judged by those in charge to outweigh the hazards of allowing bicycle use on recreational pedestrian facilities that serve little or no transportation function.
This is the opposite of the bias expressed by militant motorists and some police toward roadway cyclists. That anti-bicycle crowd argues that cyclists are being rude by using bicycles instead of cars on transportation facilities. They argue that the health/fitness benefits of cycling do not outweigh whatever inconvenience, real or imagined, cyclists cause to motorists.
Of course, none of these arguments matter to those who ride bicycles because they don't have cars, or to those Segway owners who would have difficulty walking to the destinations in the park.
I support universal access for transportation, but some parks departments blur the line between transportation facilities and pure recreational facilities. The parks department should be required to show that its policy on Segways does not create significant destination access problems for Segway users, including those who have difficulty walking.
sfh1790
05-28-2003, 12:04 PM
Just a bit of background information about the public park in question.
You should know that Greenlake is the most heavily used park in Seattle. On any given day, there are thousands of people who walk, jog, push strollers, or otherwise make their way around the lake.
The walking trail is often *very* crowded. Because of the high amount of use, the issue of what sort of use(s) should be allowed has been the source of controversy several times over the years.
When I called the rental operation "quick-buck" I did so because anyone with a minimal amount of knowledge of the local area is aware of these issues. IMO, any rental company that dumps excited, sort-of-prepared riders out into the rush-hour traffic that often occurs in this park is begging for a ban.
Don't get me wrong. I think Segway rentals are a great idea. My own interest is in using Segways as part of an integrated transportation system. But I do use my Segway just for fun as well, and a rental while on vacation would be great option to have.
The way that rentals have been launched in my neighborhood seems short-sighted at best.
sfh1790
sheng@drizzle.com
GyroGo
05-28-2003, 12:35 PM
It's not just the rights of all Segway OWNERS that need to be protected, it's all Segway USERS.
One is not better than the other. (and today's renters are tomorrow's owners).
. . SegCenter.com (www.SegCenter.com) . .
StirlingInfo (www.StirlingInfo.com) StirlingChat (www.StirlingChat.com)
(moderator's note, i goofed and accidently hit edit, the post was not actually changed_pt).
ftropea
05-28-2003, 12:39 PM
Gary, I don't know if it's that simple. See my previous post.. there could be a difference between Seg owners/renters.
Also, sfh1790 made a good point about the park in question. Perhaps the rental co. shouldn't be pushing business there?
Regards,
Frank A. Tropea
[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)
wayne
05-28-2003, 12:50 PM
Obey the rules and law in your area and there should be no problems.
The problem comes when someone doesn't obey the law or rules and the local politicians that do not use or have common sense will punish everyone instead of just the ones who broke the rules or law.
Seg-On
www.kcaps.com
quote:Originally posted by bicycledriver I support universal access for transportation, but some parks departments blur the line between transportation facilities and pure recreational facilities. The parks department should be required to show that its policy on Segways does not create significant destination access problems for Segway users, including those who have difficulty walking.
the park is a big circle, so unless the person's destination is where they started... there isn'r an access problem. renting segways to go around in circles in a recreational park without working with the city was a bad idea, the city's actions are exactly what i would expect.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
AtlSeg
05-28-2003, 01:32 PM
wow..... I finally managed to wade through this thread, making furious notes as I went. To summarize: it seemed the first objections were about (a) Segway use in a specific park, (b) Segway rentals in general, and (c) seeming insufficient training for renters.
My first reaction was that whether pt wished to use his Segway in that park or not, it was probably inevitable that someone (or a couple, as we have a number of 2-Segway households) would go gliding in the park, and potentially catch the eye of the "powers that be." As others have said, not everyone sees their Segway as a "point A to point B" transportation device.
As for rentals in general, I have a problem lumping all rental endeavors into one group. I can easily rent many things for which I've been inadequately trained with insufficient experience: inline skates, bicycles (I'm a lousy bicyclist), Harleys, underpowered (or overpowered) rental cars, etc. The point is, the burden seems to fall on me to decide if I am capable of safely operating these devices. And I suppose some people can't make that decision wisely.
My first reaction that Segway rentals somehow could result in more problems due to perceived insufficient training didn't seem any more logical than not renting me a sports car because I'm used to driving an underpowered compact car. Larry has related his training for his rental business. And that leads to an interesting point--in theory, most cities license their businesses; therefore, cities can (and do) have an active say in what could be rented, where it could be rented (or allowed), and even training required. Once again, we seem to be on the precipice of advancing the Segway experience further and further, but it takes experiences such as the rental operation in Seattle to help define our path.
pt, as someone else said, I think you might be overreacting a bit too much too soon. Take some time to see how the thing plays out.
Dick (Richard) in Atlanta
quote:Originally posted by GyroGo It's not just the rights of all Segway OWNERS that need to be protected, it's all Segway USERS. One is not better than the other. (and today's renters are tomorrow's owners).
it's not as simple as that.
everyone's rights are being compromised when people rent hts like the greenlake folks chose to.
there won't be "renters today" or "owners tomorrow" when companies buy dozens of hts and basically let them loose in parks without working with the city. it damages the perception of the segway and the first impressions many people get about the segway will be negative. greenlake is basically an outdoor gym. if you asked me where is the -worst- place in seattle to rent (or use) a ht, i'd most likely say greenlake park.
...i feel some segway rental businesses will be like parasitic organism feeding off the novelty factor of the ht.. polluting our waters by putting relatively inexperienced folks on segways and into populated areas. the "waters" i'm speaking of aren't the parks/sidewalks, although they're part of it.. i'm speaking of the impressionable minds of the general public.. the folks who were annoyed at greenlake, the city officials now looking at farther reaching bans.
some segway rental businesses will be the big short-term winners (financially).., burning bright but quickly fizzling out.. mucking up the seg world for the rest of us. there won't be renters or owners because of the way some rental places are going to do biz.
that said, there are ways to approach rentals that seem to have more positive consequences than negative, for example- larry's fun transport. it's clear they put the time and effort in.
if people do not put the time and effort in, you can expect really negative things. bans, new stories, quick actions by city officials.
here's something larry said that i think needs to happen, the r-word:
"Fun Transport will be working closely with the Segway legislative teams to ensure we are doing everything right in every city and with the other Segway teams to make sure we are always current on the newest ways to be safe. This is the only way we can be assured that this industry can be regulated and safe for everyone. There are a lot of plans in the works for the industry as it starts to grow that can only benefit everyone involved. But it MUST be regulated, and that’s where we hope to fit in."
i really think there needs to be regulation so rental companies have the opportunity to do business, but not at the expense of current or future owners and the citizens of a city.
so basically, not only am i interested in protecting the rights of owners and renters, but also the people who live in our communities.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
quote:Originally posted by AtlSeg My first reaction was that whether pt wished to use his Segway in that park or not, it was probably inevitable that someone (or a couple, as we have a number of 2-Segway households) would go gliding in the park, and potentially catch the eye of the "powers that be." As others have said, not everyone sees their Segway as a "point A to point B" transportation device.
that's way different than 10 or more hts at the park, all day, every hour. private owners going to the park has happened in seattle -but- the result was not a ban and 4 news stories about the ban.
quote:Originally posted by AtlSeg As for rentals in general, I have a problem lumping all rental endeavors into one group. I can easily rent many things for which I've been inadequately trained with insufficient experience: inline skates, bicycles (I'm a lousy bicyclist), Harleys, underpowered (or overpowered) rental cars, etc. The point is, the burden seems to fall on me to decide if I am capable of safely operating these devices. And I suppose some people can't make that decision wisely.
no one is debating if those things should exist, we have pedestrian groups working to not only ban segways from the sidewalks, but everywhere else. the way it currently works, you're not allowed to decide if something is safe for you. if you lived in san fran or la mirada someone else has said you can't be safe, so you can't use a ht.
we're fighting for survival. if we make it, rentals can and will be part of segway world. right now a rental company caused a ban.
quote:Originally posted by AtlSeg My first reaction that Segway rentals somehow could result in more problems due to perceived insufficient training didn't seem any more logical than not renting me a sports car because I'm used to driving an underpowered compact car. Larry has related his training for his rental business. And that leads to an interesting point--in theory, most cities license their businesses; therefore, cities can (and do) have an active say in what could be rented, where it could be rented (or allowed), and even training required. Once again, we seem to be on the precipice of advancing the Segway experience further and further, but it takes experiences such as the rental operation in Seattle to help define our path.
that's my hope, that people will follow larry's lead. there needs to be regulation otherwise we can expect bans because of rentals. for the folks who do not think rentals can and will cause bans, you can see my city did just that-- the city that used to be the #1 place for segways, now i'm not so sure what is going to happen.
quote:Originally posted by AtlSeg pt, as someone else said, I think you might be overreacting a bit too much too soon. Take some time to see how the thing plays out.
um, i did take some time, the -last 6 months-. i really haven't had an opinion on rentals until i -did- see how things played out.
a ban.
there are now signs in a park in my city that say "no segways allowed".
...and the city is now looking at other bans.
the segway ht is my only means of getting around and because of some folks who wanted to rent hts at a recreational park, my previous rights are now in danger.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
RAG1247
05-28-2003, 02:25 PM
i know i am repeating what i posted earlier, but i feel the major problem with this issue (rentals) is that all of sudden peple see large numbers of hts being used at once (the only other area where this has not been a problem has been in Celebration, where everything was apparently setup and prearranged).
In my opinion, the issue here is not the fact that rentals of segways causes the problem but the fact that such rentals all of a sudden introduce a large number of segway hts in one area.
Most of us ride our segways either for commuting or recreational use and in most cases never pass another unit going the other way (except in cases of planned meetings of segway users in a given area).
In the rental scenario you overnight have 5 or 10 or 20 or more units in a specific geographical area which then brings immediate notice to a lot of people, more so than if they see a single user going down the street occasionally. The majority of residents in an area have never seen a segway and now they might see 20 at a time.
The same scenario might hold true if all of a sudden 37 ht’s were purchased in my specific geographical area. The added exposure unfortunately may give reason then for municipalities to look to control their use and for the average citizen to fear them (or be somewhat envious of their use).
Richard
Ft. Lauderdale
http://www.sonyguy.com/stars_rag2.gif[/img=left] [i]If you can’t change the people around you, change the people around you
fredkap
05-28-2003, 02:50 PM
I'm going to ramble a bit here. Most of us early adopters recognize that we are beta testers for these Segs. Most of us recognize that LLC reads this chat line as religiously as anyone that has posted more than 100 replies but dares not officially respond on the advice of their attorneys. Finally 95% plus of SegwayChat readers want Segway to be a huge success while there are a small percentage of our readers here to figure out how to destroy the company for whatever perverted reason.
Segway LLC was brilliant in passing legislation in many states prior to introduction but the California law allowing municipalities to ban them has caused high profile banning to be advertised.
Rentals would work best in certain low density vacation spots but I'm highly concerned that in urban areas we are creating backlash by having them rented and used in areas such as the park in Seattle. We would have the same problem in Southern Calif if someone rented them by the bike/in-line skating path along the beach by Santa Monica that heads south.
LLC needs to have a better well oiled roll out plan than what they have done so far. If they want to sell more than get them into retail stores. Amazon.com is not doing the job. Most people want a test glide before they commit.
My sincere concern is that LLC needs to move forward in a damn the torpedos manner to flood the world with LLC's now. If the current tortoise like marketing continues the bans will become so bad that everyone considering a purchase will be reluctant because the perceived potential use will be too small.
A marketing blitz needs to occur before La Mirada and the Seattle park become a weekly happening and the Segway dies because it is ahead of its time.
Fred
yah, i agree.
dozens of of ht owners have commuted around seattle without a single problem for many months.
rental company comes in, bans-ville.
if 37 owners purchased hts, each person wouldn't go to the same park and ride around in circles, most folks have common sense and wouldn't even think about going to greenlake (people who live here agree and understand). if one owner did, the park officials could handle that without a ban. when you're a city official and across the street from your busiest park, someone set up shop and planned to rent out hts all day, everyday (and didn't work with the city to clear this) well, a ban happens.
the people who are renting the hts don't have too much of a choice of where they can go, there's the park and busy streets at greenlake. they're banned from the park and i don't think it's good that these folks without proper training and time are let loose in this busy area. they paid their $30 or whatever, the clock is ticking, gotta go quick and use up that time, sigh.
the owners in the area may need to work together and push for some regulation so this doesn't happen again.
lastly, if there were 37 owners that's a good number and i think 37 people could work with the city if and when there are issues. right now, there is a rental company that owns many hts and their motivations are different than private owners.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
BruceWright
05-28-2003, 02:59 PM
quote:Originally posted by fredkap
We would have the same problem in Southern Calif if someone rented them by the bike/in-line skating path along the beach by Santa Monica that heads south.
You know Fred, someone at work today said that someone on the Strand in Santa Monica was renting them. She said she was afraid that someone there would run her down.
I told her that if one comes close, she could just grab the handlebar and then she'd have total control of them. I think that allayed her fear.
I wonder if she really meant Segways or it was some other type of motorized scooter. Anyone know of a Segway renter in Santa Monica?
-Bruce Wright
Segway: Vehicle of Dream
fredkap
05-28-2003, 03:03 PM
Bruce
I don't know of anyone doing that yet but it would be one more item that would ruin it for the rest of us.
Fred
For those who haven't been here...in certain sections they have 4 lanes 2 for walkers/joggers 2 for bikes/in line skates. Just crossing the lanes to get to the beach can be like trying to cross an 8 lane freeway. It is dangerous without Segways on a sunny weekend day. If someone wanted to add Segways to the mix (especially with inexperienced gliders, they would be asking for accidents. The jogging /walking section is also way to crowded for Segs as well. Also walkers never seem to be in the right section which causes all sorts of problems.
GyroGo
05-28-2003, 05:28 PM
Maybe I've overlooked it, but exactly what egregious sin has been committed by a renter that is the cause of all this commotion? Or is it merely the increased presence of Segs of renters that called attention to a bad law? pt, it sounds like it is your park district "human powered" law that is the problem here, not any documented abuse by renters. If the law was there, it was inevitable someone would raise the issue.
As for the fact that renters just don't care as much, any person who leaves their driver's license, credit card deposit, and is of legal age to enter a contract is not going to be as reckless and irresponsible as some of you are suggesting, especially when trained properly.
. . SegCenter.com (www.SegCenter.com) . .
StirlingInfo (www.StirlingInfo.com) StirlingChat (www.StirlingChat.com)
ftropea
05-28-2003, 05:45 PM
What commotion? We're just having a conversation..
BTW, it's not like we're just speculating here.. As pt has indicated, "No Segway" signs are going up as we speak. I think it's good that we're attempting to understand why this is happening in one of the the most (maybe THE most) pro-Segway states.
Gary, go back and read some of the discussions. LarryL is doing it the right way (I think) while this other company in pt's backyard is kinda screwing (inadvertently of course) the local Seg owners.
Regards,
Frank A. Tropea
[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)
fredkap
05-28-2003, 05:52 PM
Gyro, I saw your pictures with Brooster. You trained in a wide open parking lot. Picture the same parking lot with 30 farmer market fruit stands and 200 people. Would you still glide there? A Segway becomes uncomfortable to the people around you at some point of density. My argument from way back is that if something you do on a Seg intimidates the people around you than you might not be safe segging. You don't pass a pedestrian on a normal sidewalk from behind going 12.5 mph. If a mother walking a todler is coming towards you, you slow to a crawl. Some of these locations are in the opinion of long time Seggers not the place for newbies to be experimenting. In California the basic speed law is that you can't go at an unsafe speed. There are some locations that the density, people mix (todlers?) is just not the appropriate place for people that aren't disabled to be Segging. Even most disabled persons would wait until the crowds thinned out at some locals (such as the end of a professional baseball or football game) to use either a Segway, wheelchair etc. regardless of the law.
Fred
gyro-
i'm not sure where "sinning" comes in to this. there's no right or wrong, or sin. only consequences of actions here. in this case, a ban and lots of negative press what the consequences of this rental company's actions.
it appears the rental company simply did not work with the city to make sure this was okay. the rental company also did not look at the law which clearly says the city can regulate them out of the park.
i don't think the human powered guidelines is a problem at all for the park, the rental company didn't go through the proper channels and a ban happened. i've worked closely with the city over the last 6 months and from day one they have been clear that hts will not be allowed at greenlake. if there were to be changes in this, it's not going to happen now.
and as far as the opinion from some there that renters just don't care as much, who knows-- that's folks opinion here.
i personally think it's human nature to care more about a $5,000 purchase you'll have for a long time than a $30 one that you get for 30 minutes. more so, to care more about your actions in an area you live and commute with your $5,000 purchase you've waited for, trained for, read manuals, videos, etc.. than an area you do not live in and are racing the clock to get your "$40 bucks worth". i could be wrong, i haven't met all humans and i've only been around for less than 30 years, this is what i think based on my expeirences so far.
it's clear to me, the actions of one rental company caused a ban and attention to the discussion of banning in other places in my city where people have used hts for up to 6 months now, with any problems at all.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
RAG1247
05-28-2003, 06:48 PM
as the population of segways in any given area increase, whether by way of personal owners and users or through commercial ventures renting segways, so to will the possibility of increased controls, restrictions, up to including outright bans of segway use.
in this case, apparently the firm did not discuss their proposed venture with the applicable authorities, which may have caused the end result being faced. Apparently also nothing tragic happened re: segway operation, only that they were in the park. Anyone renting segways is going to do it in an area where there is lots of potential customer traffic such as would be the case in Florida near the beaches, etc. They are not going to offer rentals on the outskirts of town where a renter can ride up and down dirt roads or empty streets.
while most people you meet while gliding seem to support segway use, it only takes one or two to offset such feelings and to cause (or place segway use in the spotlight) some of the issues currently in various California cities and now in pt's backyard.
i hope i'm wrong but it appears that the more the segway becomes known, the more problems will occur.
we are an extremely small minority and will no doubt continue to fight an uphill battle, which may be insurmountable in many areas.
I am awaiting word from LLC as to how we can best help in these difficult situations.
Richard
Ft. Lauderdale
http://www.sonyguy.com/stars_rag2.gif[/img=left] [i]If you can’t change the people around you, change the people around you
terryp
05-28-2003, 11:02 PM
A little update on the Seattle situation...
I emailed the newspaper that printed the article on rentals, and referenced the Senate Bill that permits Segways on bike trails. Perhaps they'll print my letter and that error will be corrected.
I also emailed the TV station that ran the piece last night, in which another Parks & Recreation spokesperson repeated that Segways are not allowed on bike paths, and could be fined up to $500. The reporter called me to say that he's looking into the conflicting stories, and would like to run a follow-up if he finds that the employee was in error.
Lastly, I emailed one of the state representatives responsible for the bill allowing HTs on bike trails and sidewalks. I told her that Parks and Recreation is apparently not aware of the change in the law, and she said she would 'take care of it'.
So, hopefully the misinformation will be corrected, and we won't be viewed as criminals.
I can't understand why anyone would consider electric vehicles to be inherently more dangerous than muscle-powered ones. Would the HT be any safer if I turned it off and used it as a scooter at 12 MPH?
I was in a very slow speed collision with a little kid on a bike a few years ago. He turned right in front of me, and I landed on my face. Not a mark on my helmet, but I had to have a half-dozen stitches in my lip and chin, and my front wheel collapsed. (Fortunately, the kid wasn't hurt at all.) So I know that even at slow speed, a bicycle can be pretty dangerous. I'd MUCH rather be hit by a Segway!
I've seen a lot of unstable rollerbladers too, and even the experienced ones tend to take up a lot of trail width as they swing back and forth. On the Segway, I just keep off to the right side and let everyone pass - never a problem.
Okay - I'm feeling better now ;) Off to the trail...
Practicing Safe Segs in Seattle
ftropea
05-28-2003, 11:18 PM
TerryP,
Nicely done.. I respect the way you took the initiative and made some important contacts. Any feedback on the rental situation?
Regards,
Frank A. Tropea
[/sc] Admin - "Keep your wheels on the ground!" - Contact Me (segwaychat@segwaychat.com)
nice work terry, i have the same questions that frank posted as well. this weekend i plan to get all the data i can from the rental place in question.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
GyroGo
05-29-2003, 03:24 AM
I agree the rental company did the Segway community a disservice by not clearing up any potential conflicts prior to initiating operation. But my reaction comes from what I hear as patent condemnation of Segway rentals as a whole. There is a right way and a wrong way to rent out Segs, and I don't want to see a dark shadow cast over all Seg rentals due to this incident.
. . SegCenter.com (www.SegCenter.com) . .
StirlingInfo (www.StirlingInfo.com) StirlingChat (www.StirlingChat.com)
gyro-
not only did this cast a dark shadow on seg rentals, but the segway and the owners in my area.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
Sunday
05-29-2003, 08:43 PM
I don't know whether to be very excited, or very aprehensive as I post this. This afternoon, while walking in Old Town, I pass a window with a huge display. On this display it declares that folks can come on inside, and register to win a Segway! How cool! So I run inside, and fill out my form.
I then start talking to the employee, and they tell me that their company is bringing in some Segways in June or July...to rent out to people. I immediately inform him of how wonderful the Segway is for commuting, and also tell him of the Seattle fiasco. And then I volunteered to help with any safety training when they gear up to rent. Of course I am excited that I will finally be able to ride one. And I am very afraid of seeing the narrow sidewalks clogged with them, as the renters attempt to take them into stores; resulting in a ban in Old Town.
I guess I'm mostly afraid though. This place has no room to properly train anyone on how to operate a Segway, and Park City's Old Town has very congested and narrow sidewalks. This combines to make for a less than ideal situation for a new rider experience. I am just hoping that they only get one or two. I also told them to wait for the metro, since it is slightly less intimidating to fellow pedestrians.
Mark Sunday
crossing my fingers in Park City
if they don't work with the city closely you can expect a ban of some sorts in park city, utah as soon as the first rentals hit the ground.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
BruceWright
05-29-2003, 09:07 PM
Wow, in PARK CITY?!!?
Man, that's a place with pretty small sidewalks as I recall. Anyone for Street segging?
-Bruce Wright
Segway: Vehicle of Dream
Sunday
05-29-2003, 09:26 PM
The outfit responsible for this is Westgate Resorts. which has locations all over the place. Looks like they'll be giving rides to folks in an attempt to sell condos. Not exactly the image Segway is looking for.
I have spoken with the mayor and the chief in the past about my plans to use a Segway here, and neither one of them had any problem with it. But them again, it's the council that has the real power in this town. Luckily, I know a few of them as well. Looks like I need to get busy, or I'm gonna be walking for an awfully long time.
Sunday
giving rides to sell condos.
that sounds kinda like....
renting hts in a recrational park.
i would make sure that they work with the city on that, you could see a ban because of some folks trying to sell condos.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
BruceWright
05-29-2003, 09:48 PM
I like the idea of giving folks in a Condo a Segway. I think it promotes the idea of low-impact mobility in a compressed urban environment.
But Park City needs bigger sidewalks.
-Bruce Wright
Segway: Vehicle of Dream
Sunday
05-29-2003, 10:33 PM
At the Old Town location, Westgate primarily provides information and gives away hot air ballon rides and such, in an attempt to woo potential buyers. Old Town has very narrow sidewalks. However, the Westgate Resort center at The Canyons resort, has a lot of space, and would be a great place for guests and employees to travel to their destinations.
I have drafted a letter to be sent to whoever is in charge of this project for the Westgate company, in an attempt to provide a suggestion on the right way to rent Segways. In the letter I mentioned contacting Segway for proper training ideas, and also holding meetings with government representatives to showcase the Segway, followed by the graduated certificate program mentioned earlier in this thread; whereby a person can move from the black key to the red key, and also rent the Segway at other Westgate locations by showing their certificate. I also suggested renting the Metro in Old Town, while using the larger models on Westgate property.
Now all I need to do is find the one person in charge of all of this. It does appear to be a Westgate marketing strategy, since I do remember a post in which people at the Westgate in Orlando were offered an opportunity to win a Segway. If anyone out there knows anything about this, or who I should contact, please contact me. Thanks.
Sunday
jwood
05-29-2003, 10:53 PM
quote:Originally posted by fredkap
Rentals would work best in certain low density vacation spots but I'm highly concerned that in urban areas we are creating backlash by having them rented and used in areas such as the park in Seattle. We would have the same problem in Southern Calif if someone rented them by the bike/in-line skating path along the beach by Santa Monica that heads south.
LLC needs to have a better well oiled roll out plan than what they have done so far. If they want to sell more than get them into retail stores. Amazon.com is not doing the job. Most people want a test glide before they commit.
Fred
Right on Fred. I wholeheartedly agree that the Segway won't sell in big numbers until people can try them first, and the best place to try or rent them is in 'low density' or controlled areas. If we can get more people to try the Segway under these conditions, it's a good thing. When more people adopt the Segway as an alternate means of transportation, it will be good for all of us in the long run.
segway might has a "well-oiled" plan, but that won't stop any hack coming along and renting to people in a recreational park. as far as amazon "not doing the job" the reported the segway ht as their top selling item.
that said, a test glide is great, rental places like the one in seattle (in my opinon) isn't the way to get there.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
Sid Viscous
05-30-2003, 11:51 AM
"rental places like the one in seattle (in my opinon) isn't the way to get there."
Just a theory, but what connections might a place like that have with the "Can't fall over" video?
having non-segway / non-authorized folks giving people 30 minute training or less and people rushing to "get their money's worth" we'll see more and more people who are determined to "make it" fall over and some general "limit" testing.
the segway seems to defy gravity, people want to see if they can "make it" fall over.
it's not bad or anything, it's human nature for some people to push the limits of something, sometimes that's intentional, sometimes it's not.
and sometimes it's both.
when it's not your segway ht, and you only paid $30 or less...i hate to say it, and this is just my opinion, many people won't care as much.
whether folks agree or disagree with the benefits or the side effects of renting segway hts, one fact remains. someone is renting hts in my area, and that caused a proactive ban in area that didn't have one until a rental company came along and set up shop across the street from the busiest area with the busiest park in my area and thought adding 10 segway hts was a good idea.
here's my prediction, rental companies that don't work with cities or do things right will cause more bans, more injuries and more problems for owners more than any single owner ever could or any advocacy group could.
i hope i'm wrong, but i also predicted that a rental company would cause a ban in my area before it happened.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
quote:Originally posted by Sid Viscous Just a theory, but what connections might a place like that have with the "Can't fall over" video?
well, i found out.
http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3533
that was a rental place.
i had a feeling it was, but needed to confirm.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
BruceWright
05-30-2003, 01:52 PM
I can imagine Bruce Lee Livingstons of the world may want to visit these rental places and give the ban movement a little nudge.
(from glidewalk.com)
The only public occasion for someone intentionally smashing an HT into something was San
Francisco ban advocate Bruce Lee Livingston who --within two minutes of first piloting one-- was
"demonstrating" how a motivated pathological idiot could do harm with the HT by banging it
intentionally into the local furniture.
-Bruce Wright
Segway: Vehicle of Dream
someone with 15 minutes and $20 bucks can and will ruin it for all of us, sorry to be the canary in the mineshaft folks, but my crystal ball has been right too much lately in this regard.
bruce lee livingston was trying to prove a point, others might want to cash in. think about all the people who threaten harm against segway owners, now they can pay $20 spend 15 minutes and really harm us.
cheers,
pt
======================
segway ht journal:
http://www.bookofseg.com
other stuff:
http://www.flashenabled.com
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.