gbrandwood
09-19-2010, 05:54 AM
I am going to add this post into an updated version of the Segway Code eBook (written by a Yahoo ;)) but thought I should air it here for comment. It basically represents the snippets I have picked up off the forum over the years, including a few checks I have thrown in myself (mainly common sense).
Also, I had the idea earlier in the year about trying to indicate a "book price" for used machines. This might be one step towards that... I never let a good (or bad) idea go! :p
Buying a used Segway
All of these points are things to consider - particularly when trying to establish a fair value for the machine. Maybe a few points could be used to help when bartering?
Generals checks (applicable to all Segways)
Check:
the exterior for scratches/marks. This gives an inication of how well the machine has been treated. Minor scratches are enevitable but lots may = abuse.
the underside of the batteries to see how badly marked they are and even check to see if the batteries can be removed. Sometimes the threads get striped and can't easily/safely be removed/installed. That's a big problem!
to see if the batteries have been rebuilt - if they have, try and find out by who and to what spec. Some rebuilders are better than others!
the age of the machine by finding its serial number (see http://social.segway.com/wiki/Segway_Serial_Numbers for details on how to interpret the number)
the age of the batteries by finding their serial numbers (see http://social.segway.com/wiki/Segway_Battery_Serial_Numbers for details on how to interpret the numbers). Compare this with the age of the machine to see if they are likely to be the original batteries. However, it is unlikely the dates will match perfectly - but a difference of over 1 year might suggest an inconsistency to investigate.
the tyres - check their tread and look for any obvious puncture plugs. Look at the tread to get a feel for how much is left.
if the tyres have been filled with Slime. This is handy to know and if so, was it done after a series of punctures?
the tyres are factory stock and not after-market - unless of course, that is what you want. If so, check the tyres do not rub against the fender, do not significantly alter the height of the tyres, or flex too much on corners.
the battery charge lights do not show any red lights when charging. Ideally, checking the lights after a short charge time and a long charge time helps as red lights do not always show straight away (red lights = bad battery or battery in need of some TLC)
the range of the batteries - ask but also see if you can take the machine for a ride for a few miles (see test ride below)
the keys are all included. A complete set for a Gen1s is 2 x red, 1 black and 1 yellow. Gen2s should have two InfoKeys. InfoKeys are expensive and without all the correct paperwork, potentially difficult to replace quickly.
the original paperwork, manuals and DVD are included. The original paperwork will help to establish age and legitimacy of ownership
software version - the latest versions and how to identify them are detailed here: http://social.segway.com/wiki/Gen1_Software_Version / http://social.segway.com/wiki/Gen2_Software_Version. The latest versions have all the recall "bug" fixes implemented and offer safety enhancements. And for Gen1s, the latest release allow the use of Li-ion batteries.
Take a test ride
Check:
the battery gauge on Blinky to estimate if the claimed range seems plausible. If they state 10 miles, try and ride 5 and see how many bars are left. Not scientific, but will give some indication.
the gears are not particularly loud - this might be difficult if you are unfamiliar with Segways - but gear problems may exhibit themselves by unusually loud noise - or even the elastometers may be worn making a clicking noise when gentle rocking the machine forwards and backwards
it the Segway pulls to the left or right indicating a difference in pressure. This may suggest a puncture - or at least poorly maintained tyre pressures. Gen1s were not tubed and lost air quite easily so bear this in mind.
for wheel wobble. A weaker flange design on early Gen2s made them more susceptible to knocks and bumps. Consequently, the wheels would not rotate flush. Later models have stronger flanges but could still suffer from wheel wobble if they have been in a serious knock. Wheel wobble can be corrected but the worse case scenario may require new parts and possibly a new wheel assembly if severe.
Specific checks for Gen2 machines:
Check the mileage on the InfoKey. Make sure you are not looking at an individual trip - toggle through the InfoKey settings to ensure you see all of the miles recored. A higher mileage obviously means the machine has been used a lot, but that could be a good sign if the overall condition is clean, as you know the machine has been well cared for and the batteries have been exercised. Low mileage is good for a newish machine - but if the machine is, say, over 1 year old and only done 10 miles, you have to wonder why, and what state the batteries are in.
Remember, the mileage displayed on the InfoKey shows the miles on the machine - not the batteries. It could be a tidy machine fitted with older or more heavily used batteries from a different machine - so check the condition/age of the batteries as described above.
check the LeanSteer Frame's height can be adjusted without slippage. It should tighten and not fall down or pull up with a little pressure applied.
Check for the "cold start-up" issue. Machines released prior to October 2007 (check the serial) will have the cold start-up issue unless it was repaired/upgraded after that point. This prevents the machine from starting up in very cold conditions (unless they are jumpstarted).
Specific checks for a first generation Segway (e167/i167/i170/i180/XT/p133)
Check:
for red or blue mode button. Red = older. If red, ask whether the software has been upgraded. However, bear in mind that buttons can be easily replaced.
the control shaft can be extended and shortened without too much trouble. Ensure the shaft doesn't slip down easily when tightened.
the wires inside the control shaft are not frayed. Excessive lifting and lowering may have caused them to chafe - a particular problem on early machines (you may need a hex wrench to remove the control shaft from the base if a Quick Release device is not attached)
the front of the handlebar for marks/damage. When a Gen1 falls over, the handlebars are usually the first thing to hit the ground - handlebars are expensive and rare.
to see if it should have a kickstand. All but the e167, XT and p133 should have one. They were easy to brake. Check whether your machine has one or not.
you are getting the batteries you think you are. Gen1s can work with both NiMh and Li-ion. Li-ion packs are bigger and heavier, offering less ground clearance, but offer a better range and are more expensive.
the turning grip operates smoothly and correctly returns to centre when released.
the handlebar assembly does not rotate from side-to-side. There should be no "play". It could be a loose attachment to the shaft or it could suggest abuse.
Other advice
General buying advice applies whether you are purchasing a Segway, a car or any high value item:
Try and take someone with you who is familiar with Segways to assess and carry out the above checks. Some dealers will offer an inspection service but may charge.
Try not to buy without seeing the machine in person. Some risks are removed when you can actually pick up the machine yourself.
Don't believe everything on eBay is real! Treat all eBay auctions like they are scams - until you/they can prove otherwise.
Consider purchasing used from a reputable dealer. They might be more expensive than private sale, but you may have some recourse and maybe even some warranty. They will almost certainly be able to provide you with quality training and after-sales support.
If you are new to Segways, try and include some tuition from the seller (if they are a reputable source). Attending a guided tour would be an alternative in this instance. Tour guides will provide some training so you know how to operate the basics of your machine - but do follow the manufacturer’s recommendations (e.g., read the manual, watch the safety video, start out on the beginner modes).
This list only contains suggestions of things to look for. If in doubt, consult an expert. And remember, caveat emptor!
Also, I had the idea earlier in the year about trying to indicate a "book price" for used machines. This might be one step towards that... I never let a good (or bad) idea go! :p
Buying a used Segway
All of these points are things to consider - particularly when trying to establish a fair value for the machine. Maybe a few points could be used to help when bartering?
Generals checks (applicable to all Segways)
Check:
the exterior for scratches/marks. This gives an inication of how well the machine has been treated. Minor scratches are enevitable but lots may = abuse.
the underside of the batteries to see how badly marked they are and even check to see if the batteries can be removed. Sometimes the threads get striped and can't easily/safely be removed/installed. That's a big problem!
to see if the batteries have been rebuilt - if they have, try and find out by who and to what spec. Some rebuilders are better than others!
the age of the machine by finding its serial number (see http://social.segway.com/wiki/Segway_Serial_Numbers for details on how to interpret the number)
the age of the batteries by finding their serial numbers (see http://social.segway.com/wiki/Segway_Battery_Serial_Numbers for details on how to interpret the numbers). Compare this with the age of the machine to see if they are likely to be the original batteries. However, it is unlikely the dates will match perfectly - but a difference of over 1 year might suggest an inconsistency to investigate.
the tyres - check their tread and look for any obvious puncture plugs. Look at the tread to get a feel for how much is left.
if the tyres have been filled with Slime. This is handy to know and if so, was it done after a series of punctures?
the tyres are factory stock and not after-market - unless of course, that is what you want. If so, check the tyres do not rub against the fender, do not significantly alter the height of the tyres, or flex too much on corners.
the battery charge lights do not show any red lights when charging. Ideally, checking the lights after a short charge time and a long charge time helps as red lights do not always show straight away (red lights = bad battery or battery in need of some TLC)
the range of the batteries - ask but also see if you can take the machine for a ride for a few miles (see test ride below)
the keys are all included. A complete set for a Gen1s is 2 x red, 1 black and 1 yellow. Gen2s should have two InfoKeys. InfoKeys are expensive and without all the correct paperwork, potentially difficult to replace quickly.
the original paperwork, manuals and DVD are included. The original paperwork will help to establish age and legitimacy of ownership
software version - the latest versions and how to identify them are detailed here: http://social.segway.com/wiki/Gen1_Software_Version / http://social.segway.com/wiki/Gen2_Software_Version. The latest versions have all the recall "bug" fixes implemented and offer safety enhancements. And for Gen1s, the latest release allow the use of Li-ion batteries.
Take a test ride
Check:
the battery gauge on Blinky to estimate if the claimed range seems plausible. If they state 10 miles, try and ride 5 and see how many bars are left. Not scientific, but will give some indication.
the gears are not particularly loud - this might be difficult if you are unfamiliar with Segways - but gear problems may exhibit themselves by unusually loud noise - or even the elastometers may be worn making a clicking noise when gentle rocking the machine forwards and backwards
it the Segway pulls to the left or right indicating a difference in pressure. This may suggest a puncture - or at least poorly maintained tyre pressures. Gen1s were not tubed and lost air quite easily so bear this in mind.
for wheel wobble. A weaker flange design on early Gen2s made them more susceptible to knocks and bumps. Consequently, the wheels would not rotate flush. Later models have stronger flanges but could still suffer from wheel wobble if they have been in a serious knock. Wheel wobble can be corrected but the worse case scenario may require new parts and possibly a new wheel assembly if severe.
Specific checks for Gen2 machines:
Check the mileage on the InfoKey. Make sure you are not looking at an individual trip - toggle through the InfoKey settings to ensure you see all of the miles recored. A higher mileage obviously means the machine has been used a lot, but that could be a good sign if the overall condition is clean, as you know the machine has been well cared for and the batteries have been exercised. Low mileage is good for a newish machine - but if the machine is, say, over 1 year old and only done 10 miles, you have to wonder why, and what state the batteries are in.
Remember, the mileage displayed on the InfoKey shows the miles on the machine - not the batteries. It could be a tidy machine fitted with older or more heavily used batteries from a different machine - so check the condition/age of the batteries as described above.
check the LeanSteer Frame's height can be adjusted without slippage. It should tighten and not fall down or pull up with a little pressure applied.
Check for the "cold start-up" issue. Machines released prior to October 2007 (check the serial) will have the cold start-up issue unless it was repaired/upgraded after that point. This prevents the machine from starting up in very cold conditions (unless they are jumpstarted).
Specific checks for a first generation Segway (e167/i167/i170/i180/XT/p133)
Check:
for red or blue mode button. Red = older. If red, ask whether the software has been upgraded. However, bear in mind that buttons can be easily replaced.
the control shaft can be extended and shortened without too much trouble. Ensure the shaft doesn't slip down easily when tightened.
the wires inside the control shaft are not frayed. Excessive lifting and lowering may have caused them to chafe - a particular problem on early machines (you may need a hex wrench to remove the control shaft from the base if a Quick Release device is not attached)
the front of the handlebar for marks/damage. When a Gen1 falls over, the handlebars are usually the first thing to hit the ground - handlebars are expensive and rare.
to see if it should have a kickstand. All but the e167, XT and p133 should have one. They were easy to brake. Check whether your machine has one or not.
you are getting the batteries you think you are. Gen1s can work with both NiMh and Li-ion. Li-ion packs are bigger and heavier, offering less ground clearance, but offer a better range and are more expensive.
the turning grip operates smoothly and correctly returns to centre when released.
the handlebar assembly does not rotate from side-to-side. There should be no "play". It could be a loose attachment to the shaft or it could suggest abuse.
Other advice
General buying advice applies whether you are purchasing a Segway, a car or any high value item:
Try and take someone with you who is familiar with Segways to assess and carry out the above checks. Some dealers will offer an inspection service but may charge.
Try not to buy without seeing the machine in person. Some risks are removed when you can actually pick up the machine yourself.
Don't believe everything on eBay is real! Treat all eBay auctions like they are scams - until you/they can prove otherwise.
Consider purchasing used from a reputable dealer. They might be more expensive than private sale, but you may have some recourse and maybe even some warranty. They will almost certainly be able to provide you with quality training and after-sales support.
If you are new to Segways, try and include some tuition from the seller (if they are a reputable source). Attending a guided tour would be an alternative in this instance. Tour guides will provide some training so you know how to operate the basics of your machine - but do follow the manufacturer’s recommendations (e.g., read the manual, watch the safety video, start out on the beginner modes).
This list only contains suggestions of things to look for. If in doubt, consult an expert. And remember, caveat emptor!