Mac or PC?

[budsiskos]

which one are You?

and if there are any linux users here, dont worry i didnt forget you.

[KSagal]

I have many tools, and do not fill out polls for the most part.

I also am very much unfamiliar with most all Apple products. I have never owned an iphone, a mac, nor an ipod...

I do use some of their software, like for streaming video. (because this site or that will request that I download it) The only apple products that I know that I use are these shareware products.

[SegwayDan]

Hey, I'm Mac and I'm proud. Apple all the way since about 1979. First Mac in 1985.

Avoid windoze like the plague. No such machine will darken my doorstep.

[DaveA]

One Gentoo Linux box,
two OpenBSD boxes,
one XP box,
and one iBook G4.

Guess that qualifies for "combination".

[Bob.Kerns]

Active:

My Laptop PC (Vista x64) on which I also run various VMs (XP, Ubuntu, CentOS, Vista, Windows 7)
1 6-years old Dell laptop I'll probably power it down for good soon. (Vista)
My wife's laptop (Vista x32)
1 Desktop PC (Vista x32)
Two iPhones
One Amazon EC2 instance out there in the cloud, running our family Wiki. (Want an account, Mom?). It's running some Linux variant, I'm not sure what, as I just grabbed a configured install to get started. I haven't decided what I want to run there for real. Yes, I do not own the hardware, and don't even know what hardware it is or WHERE it is, but it's my system nonetheless.


Inactive:

SGI Indigo
Mac II (which used to have an embeded Symbolics MacIvory Lisp Machine), with a 300 MB hard drive that cost me I think $1500.
Powerbook 100
Powerbook Duo
An old PC, circa 1998, with XP
An old dual-processor PC, from back when those were rare, with Windows 2000 (unbootable since Microsoft sabotaged it through Microsoft Update)
My wife's old Sony Vaio -- the only computer I've ever killed trying to service. Needs a new touchpad ribbon connector Not worth the hassle trying to obtain the part.
HTC 8252
Samsung whatever-it-was-called
a Sony Cleo that I killed in the laundry. This is the device with which Erika learned to read!
An ancient Palm device, m105?
Some random device I picked up 15 years ago with an embedded Basic interpreter and a small LCD display.


The Mac II is the oldest -- it was the first personal computer on the market that I considered sufficiently powerful for me to put in my own money. I'd used a lot of earlier stuff, but found them pretty limited. I was never willing to trust my data to audio tones recorded onto a cassette tape, for example. Or any sort of floppy disk.

The SGI is my wife's, she had it when we were married, brought it to the US, and hardly used it since, such is hardware obsolescence...

The EC2 instance is my newest.

And in the "potential" category:

One TiVo 40 running some Linux variant
One TiVo 80 DT running some Linux variant
Three Western Digital terabyte NAS RAID 1 boxes running some Linux variant
At least one, probably more, of my network routers run or can be hacked to run Linux.


Each of these can be hacked to run whatever you want, but I haven't done so, considering them to be rather under-powered for even their current uses. I do run some TiVo apps over the network on the PC desktop.

Note that I'm only counting computers that I can actually run software of my choosing on. I'd like to figure out how to run software on my Cannon PIXMA 850 all-in-one, and I wonder what it runs natively. I'd like to scan-to-network-disk or scan-to-flash.

I'm not counting company computers (my only active Macintosh, for example). Nor my 20-year-old daughter's, PC or iPhone, though I paid for them...

I'm not counting the microwave oven.

[Joushou]

Why is Linux an option in a platform poll?
PC and Mac are hardware platforms, Linux is an OS... So, either you mean "Mac OS, Linux, Windows or a combination", or Linux doesn't fit into the category of the Poll, since it runs on both Mac's and PC's ;) (Well, unless you managed to run software without hardware :O)
I have plenty of PC's and one Mac... but i never run anything non-*nix

Active Hardware:

Apple MacBook Pro 17" (the 1920x1200 panel raised the cost to $4k... But i didn't have anything to use the money on ;))
Homebrew Core 2 Quad (Q9300), running at 3.2GHz (Water-cooled :) ), with 4GB of DDR2 RAM. Acts as my server
Nintendo Wii (As Bob, i write anything i can run software i wrote/choose on :) )
Nintendo DS Lite(s) (Not too fast, almot no RAM (4MB...), but you can throw linux on it, so it qualifies ;) )
Nintendo DSi (Haven't gotten it to run anything in "DSi" mode yet, so it locks down memory and cpu to emulate a DS)
T-Mobile G1 (HTC Dream), running Google Android :)


Inactive Hardware:

HP Compaq nx7000 (Laptop)
HP Pavilion zeSomething (Laptop)
HP Pavilion m7450 (Desktop)
HP Compaq Something (Desktop)
Homebrew P3 (451MHz!)
HP Something Thin-client (800MHz)
HP Compaq h2200 (I think) (PDA)
Way too many Pentium Pro's (And other pre-Pentium3 hardware from my father)
Nintendo GameBoy Advance (and SP) (If i recall correctly, it had 384kB RAM)
Nintendo GameBoy Color
Nintendo GameBoy Original (Judging by its size, it might have had a mechanical CPU)
Probably something i'm not remembering



Potentially (ab)usable:

Logitech Squeezebox
Way too many free PIC's :)



All of the above hardware that runs an OS, runs either BSD, Darwin or Linux... Well, the Wii runs their own really odd OS (Same with the DSi)... but i have Linux for them all :)

Only Windows PC's in the house is my 2 little-sisters (Dell Vostro 1700 (Again with a 1920x1200 panel... But damn, it's bulky/heavy compared to my MBP :/), and a Fujitsu-Siemens Amilo something (My bigger-sisters old laptop), and my parents (Lenovo IdeaPad s10e, and HP Pavilion zeSomething (17" laptop, with damn low resolution :S))...

Since i'm not supplied with any hardware from work, i'm not counting something like that in (Why don't my boss thing i need computers at home, when i'm an electrician!?)... Well, unless buying some of the hardware in my own company-name (With the pure intentions of private use of course... ;) ).

And i don't have a microwave-oven, so i can't count that in either... If i had one, i would though :P

Bob: Amazon EC2 Cloud account for a family Wiki? Well, maybe your Wiki is very CPU intensive, but isn't that a bit of an overkill? :P
SegwayDan: I was VERY close to writing it's instead of its in this post :P

[C3RS]

1) Main computer: assembled PC system (WinXP)
2) Secondary computer: Laptop PC system (WinXP)
3) Server computer: desktop-PC system (WinXP)
4) HTPC computer: desktop-PC system (WinXP)

5) Family computer: Dell PC system (WinVISTA)

6) Test/code computer: restored eMac 700 with 10.4 MacOSX (not iMac...)

[Joushou]

eMac 700MHz G4... Why not 10.5 or 6? :P

And, Eww, Windows! >:|
"In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?"

[SegwayDan]

eMac 700MHz G4... Why not 10.5 or 6? :P

And, Eww, Windows! >:|
"In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?"

That's my boy! The new Intel iMacs are very nice!

[DesertSeg]

What the hell is this, Gizmodo? :D

Every time some there's a post even remotely about Mac or PC having a feature or something superior to the other, a major flame war erupts.

This thread has been civil so far and I hope it stays that way. Besides, everyone know PCs are better than macs. [;)]

[C3RS]

in absolute, with an one iMac 20' -1100€-, i buy 3x Desktop PC -300€- ... with the same power on CPU, hard-drive and RAM/Graphic Card.

:rolleyes: ...

[Joushou]

20 FEET PANEL!? i think 1100EUR is cheap for that ;)

You have to remember to add a 20" panel, and again, same size and all...
Also, remember that the iMac is actually laptop hardware, so you should compare to that, not a desktop.

I agree that a Mac is very expensive, but people forget that they can't just compare the speeds/memory sizes of the hardware, but you have to add the size of the hardware to the mix, materials for it (Glass screen, aluminum body... all that), which does cost a whole lot of dollars...

Still expensive, but i don't know anyone who remembers to put it into the equation...

[Bob.Kerns]

What the hell is this, Gizmodo? :D

Every time some there's a post even remotely about Mac or PC having a feature or something superior to the other, a major flame war erupts.

This thread has been civil so far and I hope it stays that way. Besides, everyone know PCs are better than macs. [;)]

Since Gizmodo has gone over to the dark side, we seem to all have collectively decided to replace it. Once we get the traffic numbers up, Frank will have to start selling ads to pay for the servers, then get rich.

Anyway -- so far, the results suggest that the OS bias is about the same as the general bias here -- we have more technical people here than in society at large, higher income, and more people working in graphics and film.

And I suspect that people with unusual (i.e. "not just a PC or two") stuff are more likely to post.

[Bob.Kerns]

Why is Linux an option in a platform poll?
PC and Mac are hardware platforms, Linux is an OS... So, either you mean "Mac OS, Linux, Windows or a combination", or Linux doesn't fit into the category of the Poll, since it runs on both Mac's and PC's ;) (Well, unless you managed to run software without hardware :O)

Windows runs on Macs as well. "Platform" generally refers to the hardware+software that underlie the application software. Exactly what this means depends on context -- sometimes it's the OS, sometimes mostly the hardware, sometimes very specific software (e.g. an application server).

Bob: Amazon EC2 Cloud account for a family Wiki? Well, maybe your Wiki is very CPU intensive, but isn't that a bit of an overkill? :P

It's a matter of economics -- time and money. I don't have to buy a server, I can turn it off at night and not pay, I don't pay for electricity, I don't have it taking up space, I don't have to set up and maintain and service it....

I don't need another UPS to start feeping at me during the next power outage this winter.

I set it up and put it into service faster than I've ever put any physical PC into service -- and it was my first try with EC2.

I can manage it from my iPhone -- even upgrade it. I can access it from anywhere -- I don't have to make a hole in my home firewall -- and don't have to deal with the dynamic IP I get with my cable service. I get more uptime.

If I need more storage, I can just configure it. Backups are trivial, if I back up to the cloud. (I may want to reverse my usual practice, and back up FROM the cloud to local storage as a second backup type. I don't do single backup types anymore).

[budsiskos]

Why is Linux an option in a platform poll?
PC and Mac are hardware platforms, Linux is an OS... So, either you mean "Mac OS, Linux, Windows or a combination", or Linux doesn't fit into the category of the Poll, since it runs on both Mac's and PC's ;) (Well, unless you managed to run software without hardware :O)
I have plenty of PC's and one Mac... but i never run anything non-*nix

:P

well linux is such a separate os that most consider them being a completely independent entity from the others. not to mention, most linux users actually build their own computers.

[Bob.Kerns]

most linux users actually build their own computers.

Actually, I doubt this is true.

I think the converse is more likely to be true -- perhaps most people who build their own computers run Linux. Saves buying a retail copy of Windows, and Apple won't let you.

But I think most people running Linux run them on stock hardware -- often older left-over hardware. But also high-end brand-new server hardware. Or in virtual machines, as in my case, so you can have your cake and eat it, too.

(BTW, my EC2 instance is running Fedora 8 -- I checked the console log from my iPhone).

[Joushou]

budsiskos, most people build their own computers ;)
Apart from my parents and my sisters, everyone i know have build their own (Well, my friends, not family...)

And, you still mentioned 2 platforms that Linux runs on... You should have chosen OS's if you want to differentiate from Linux... (And, i think you by PC, meant Windows users anyway ;) )

BSD is also a separate OS. SkyOS is also a separate OS... No matter how you look at it, you can't compare software to hardware...

Again, a PC can run Mac OS X, Linux, Windows, all sorts of odd software, and so can the Macintosh.
So, do you want to know what hardware people run on, or what software they run on it?

If it's hardware, you could ask "PC - Preassembled, PC - Assembled, Mac, or Other" (What about people on ARM or SPARC? :P), if it's software, it would be "Windows, Mac OS, Linux based, BSD based, Other"... currently, you're comparing Apple to oranges (Couldn't help it ;) ).

Windows runs on Macs as well. "Platform" generally refers to the hardware+software that underlie the application software. Exactly what this means depends on context -- sometimes it's the OS, sometimes mostly the hardware, sometimes very specific software (e.g. an application server).


Yeah, well, i meant hardware :P

It's a matter of economics -- time and money. I don't have to buy a server, I can turn it off at night and not pay, I don't pay for electricity, I don't have it taking up space, I don't have to set up and maintain and service it....

My server wasn't that expensive... I just put together an ordinary PC... And my parents pay the electricity bills ;)
Also, maintenance is part of the fun! ;)

I don't need another UPS to start feeping at me during the next power outage this winter.

I can't remember my last power-outage... My power-company must be way more stable than the average US power-company... (I think we have 3-4 power-companies, one of them maintain most of Denmark), so no need for a UPS :)

I set it up and put it into service faster than I've ever put any physical PC into service -- and it was my first try with EC2.

I will train assembly and installation of a PC, faster than you can set an EC2 instance up!

I can manage it from my iPhone -- even upgrade it. I can access it from anywhere -- I don't have to make a hole in my home firewall -- and don't have to deal with the dynamic IP I get with my cable service. I get more uptime.

I always manage my server from my G1... Well, i can't upgrade it... WAIT! I can call a friend off mine, and have him do it! All through the phone ;)
I don't have a hole in my firewall, it IS my firewall :) It handles the whole network... And i have a static IP :D

If I need more storage, I can just configure it. Backups are trivial, if I back up to the cloud. (I may want to reverse my usual practice, and back up FROM the cloud to local storage as a second backup type. I don't do single backup types anymore).

If I need more storage, i add another disk to the RAID :P
And, since i run a RAID with server-class HDD's, i don't do backups (Well, i didn't do it before either... Real men don't backup! I just remember the binary data, and then use a butterfly to magnetize the disk again (Like this: http://xkcd.com/378/ :P)

Also, i think i remember you signature from somewhere... ;)

[Bob.Kerns]

budsiskos, most people build their own computers ;)
Apart from my parents and my sisters, everyone i know have build their own (Well, my friends, not family...)

And, you still mentioned 2 platforms that Linux runs on... You should have chosen OS's if you want to differentiate from Linux... (And, i think you by PC, meant Windows users anyway ;) )

BSD is also a separate OS. SkyOS is also a separate OS... No matter how you look at it, you can't compare software to hardware...

Again, a PC can run Mac OS X, Linux, Windows, all sorts of odd software, and so can the Macintosh.
So, do you want to know what hardware people run on, or what software they run on it?

If it's hardware, you could ask "PC - Preassembled, PC - Assembled, Mac, or Other" (What about people on ARM or SPARC? :P), if it's software, it would be "Windows, Mac OS, Linux based, BSD based, Other"... currently, you're comparing Apple to oranges (Couldn't help it ;) ).

Forget about the hardware -- his poll makes better sense if you interpret "platform" as "OS". You're stuck on the hardware.

It's a bit narrow, though, as you point out, BSD, or IRIX, etc. are not Linux.

[Joushou]

Exactly, that's what i thought he meant (Windows=PC, Mac=Mac OS, Linux=... Linux :P), and that's why i corrected him... I use PC's daily, but i wouldn't touch Windows...
Anyway, i think you all get my point :)

[SLong]

Apple all the way!
1.) Cube (the one i use daily)
2.) dual proccessor tower (wife's)
3.) Powerbook G4 12.1" (wife's)
4.) Macbook intel dual-core (mine)

two iphones
three ipods

retired to storage:
Apple II+
Mac Classic

Also in storage:
Coleco Adam

[SegwayDan]

Since Gizmodo has gone over to the dark side, we seem to all have collectively decided to replace it. Once we get the traffic numbers up, Frank will have to start selling ads to pay for the servers, then get rich.

Anyway -- so far, the results suggest that the OS bias is about the same as the general bias here -- we have more technical people here than in society at large, higher income, and more people working in graphics and film.

And I suspect that people with unusual (i.e. "not just a PC or two") stuff are more likely to post.

I actually don't intend to speak against those with different opinions than mine when it comes to a matter of preference, value determination, job requirement, etc. I'm merely expressing my not-so-humble opinion about my computer preferences. They're mainly based on my two decades of using my computers for my livelihood.

I use Macs every day to make my living. The new keyboard alone is far superior to non-Mac keyboards. The key action is just right. Not too much travel, not too noisy, and it's also nice to look at.

I also like the user interface. It's more attractive in appearance.

Though it may seem strange or even objectionable for a person to have strong opinions about computing machines, I sincerely do have such emotional attachments to my Apple products, simply because they are MUCH better for me than any other brand. This is a good thing--so good that I'm inspired to speak out loudly and proudly their praises. I also invite anyone to simply check them out at any Apple retail store or Best Buy to see for themselves what I'm talking about.

[Bob.Kerns]

I actually don't intend to speak against those with different opinions than mine when it comes to a matter of preference, value determination, job requirement, etc. I'm merely expressing my not-so-humble opinion about my computer preferences. They're mainly based on my two decades of using my computers for my livelihood.

This is all too tame. We should talk about programming languages instead, and really liven up the discussion.

Oh wait, this is SegwayChat. Never mind.

What's the Segway software written in again? Assembler???

Never mind...really.

[Joushou]

Bob, Mac OS X's Cocoa frameworks require you to use Objective-C... It's a living hell...
Think general C syntax for non-OO stuff, but Smalltalk for OO...

And, i think the Segway is actually running a brainfuck interpreter... Wait, maybe BitXtreme... Or LOLCODE... Could also be AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!... Definitely some esoteric language :D (And damn, there's a quite long list on esolangs.org...)

[Wireczar]

which one are You?

and if there are any linux users here, dont worry i didnt forget you.

Why is this in Segway Forum????

[Joushou]

Because we're talking about Segway mounted computers, of course!
*Straps his MBP onto the LSF, or maybe the LCF, with the LCD strapped onto the LSF* (Damn, i couldn't squeeze more TLA's into that :P)

[budsiskos]

Why is this in Segway Forum????

this is in response to an earlier post. if you read through it youll see where the connection is made.

http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=22417&highlight=users

[segsurfer]

I am a PC guy first and foremost, however I have had a tumultuous and fleeting love affair with macs for years. I love mac's firmware and hardware, as an iphone/ occasional mac user I can honestly say that I find their synthesis of hardware and software to be well thought out and aesthetically pleasing; that being said, I have been having ongoing problems with itunes for years and yet somehow because of the strengths mentioned above I continue to treasure my iphone. In my experience, running itunes on windows has been like pulling teeth and quite frankly I find apples black box philosophy annoying, which is why I stick with a PC for my primary machine.
-segsurfer

[gbrandwood]

..."I guess I’m not cool enough to own a Mac"

I'm cool enough to own a Segway though ;)

Gotta love those adverts :)

[Joushou]

I am a PC guy first and foremost, however I have had a tumultuous and fleeting love affair with macs for years. I love mac's firmware and hardware, as an iphone/ occasional mac user I can honestly say that I find their synthesis of hardware and software to be well thought out and aesthetically pleasing; that being said, I have been having ongoing problems with itunes for years and yet somehow because of the strengths mentioned above I continue to treasure my iphone. In my experience, running itunes on windows has been like pulling teeth and quite frankly I find apples black box philosophy annoying, which is why I stick with a PC for my primary machine.

And, what do you call Microsofts philosophy? "Open"? :P
OS X is way more open than Windows... They even open-sourced some of it.
Their applications run the same "black-box" philosophy as any other non-open-source app, there's no difference there... So i don't quite understand your reason :/

Also, i have never had any problems with iTunes, and neither have my computer-handicapped sister, who have been using it since version 5 (or 6, whichever were out when she got her gen3 20GB iPod) in windows, and from 8 and up in OS X (Convinced her to get a MacBook Pro, and now she wonders how she lived without it :) )...

But if you like the look and feel of Windows, that's completely your choice :)

[Bob.Kerns]

And, what do you call Microsofts philosophy? "Open"? :P
OS X is way more open than Windows... They even open-sourced some of it.
Their applications run the same "black-box" philosophy as any other non-open-source app, there's no difference there... So i don't quite understand your reason :/

But if you like the look and feel of Windows, that's completely your choice :)

iTunes does have a lot more issues on Windows than on the Mac. Some releases have been more stable than others.

But as for Apple being closed -- let me give you just one example: On Windows, you can distribute any version of Java you wish, and install it with your product. Then your product will work, no matter what other version(s) of Java your user may install on his system.

On the Macintosh? The only viable Java is from Apple. It lags years behind every other OS -- they've just recently released 1.6. This forced us to make some very expensive modifications to our software, AND reduce features, to live within the limitations -- some we could make Windows-only, others we had to eliminate entirely.

Apple does not allow you to distribute Java yourself, so you're stuck with whatever Apple has installed on their OS -- and whatever they may install there in the future.

The upside is that you're sure to have SOME version of Java, and maybe even the version you expect, if the user has had the system since you released the software. On Windows, you can't assume nearly as much -- but you do get more control.

Microsoft as open-sourced some stuff as well. I don't know the point-by-point list of of what's open-source from either side, so I won't try to compare -- but open-source doesn't mean much in the face of such license restrictions.

If I can build an entire MacOS distribution from source, but can't distribute a critical fix to my customers that fixes a bug that makes my application unreliable, then it might as well be a completely closed system.

Overall, OSX is more closed than Microsoft. Microsoft. I wouldn't say that's entirely bad -- often Microsoft's openness is regrettable, with obsolete API's hanging around making things slow, complicated, unreliable....

[Bob.Kerns]

I only post this because earlier today, after a Polo game, one of the other players requested I come here and add something to this argument. But that is all I have to add to any internet argument.
Goodbye for another long period of time, SegwayChat.
Flame away!

I found this image and associated text to be inappropriate and offensive. I bet whoever asked you to come and "add" something is regretting it right now.

You're welcome to have any opinion you wish of me and the other posters in this and other debates.

But that kid in the picture was putting his heart and soul into an effort to overcome obstacles you cannot even begin to imagine.

He does not deserve to be linked to your ridicule.

[segsurfer]

iTunes does have a lot more issues on Windows than on the Mac. Some releases have been more stable than others.

But as for Apple being closed -- let me give you just one example: On Windows, you can distribute any version of Java you wish, and install it with your product. Then your product will work, no matter what other version(s) of Java your user may install on his system.

On the Macintosh? The only viable Java is from Apple. It lags years behind every other OS -- they've just recently released 1.6. This forced us to make some very expensive modifications to our software, AND reduce features, to live within the limitations -- some we could make Windows-only, others we had to eliminate entirely.

Apple does not allow you to distribute Java yourself, so you're stuck with whatever Apple has installed on their OS -- and whatever they may install there in the future.

The upside is that you're sure to have SOME version of Java, and maybe even the version you expect, if the user has had the system since you released the software. On Windows, you can't assume nearly as much -- but you do get more control.

Microsoft as open-sourced some stuff as well. I don't know the point-by-point list of of what's open-source from either side, so I won't try to compare -- but open-source doesn't mean much in the face of such license restrictions.

If I can build an entire MacOS distribution from source, but can't distribute a critical fix to my customers that fixes a bug that makes my application unreliable, then it might as well be a completely closed system.

Overall, OSX is more closed than Microsoft. Microsoft. I wouldn't say that's entirely bad -- often Microsoft's openness is regrettable, with obsolete API's hanging around making things slow, complicated, unreliable....

Exactly!!! Thanks for backing me up from a software standpoint. Personally I'm more of a hardware guy, and I find it frustrating how "black box" all of mac's hardware is. I'm running a dell xps laptop, and although by virtue of being a laptop it more "black box" than it's desktop counterparts, I can still access the RAM, CPU, and fans with a small phillips and no effort. With a little more doing I can have the whole bottom of the computer off to access boards and internals; and with a simple slide latch I can remove and replace my battery. The family macbook on the other hand is as "black box" as it gets; non-replaceable batteries, and a solid milled chassis
make for a very pretty computer, but also a very closed system. The imbedded battery issue, I might add is evident throughout apple's entire product line. Which I'm sorry, but imbedded batteries are inexcusable in a freaking cell phone.
-segsurfer

[Bob.Kerns]

Exactly!!! Thanks for backing me up from a software standpoint. Personally I'm more of a hardware guy, and I find it frustrating how "black box" all of mac's hardware is. I'm running a dell xps laptop, and although by virtue of being a laptop it more "black box" than it's desktop counterparts, I can still access the RAM, CPU, and fans with a small phillips and no effort. With a little more doing I can have the whole bottom of the computer off to access boards and internals; and with a simple slide latch I can remove and replace my battery. The family macbook on the other hand is as "black box" as it gets; non-replaceable batteries, and a solid milled chassis
make for a very pretty computer, but also a very closed system. The imbedded battery issue, I might add is evident throughout apple's entire product line. Which I'm sorry, but imbedded batteries are inexcusable in a freaking cell phone.
-segsurfer

In a cell phone, there's a bit more of an excuse given form factors, latching, and sealing from the environment. Supposedly, the 3G and 3GS batteries aren't actually soldered...

You might be interested in this iphone charger -- the only battery-powered external charger I've been really happy with. A bit pricier than I've been used to paying for such devices, though:

http://www.isound.net/2-in-1-ac-adapter-and-car-charger.html

Unfortunately, it itself is a rechargable device, but it recharges pretty quickly, via car, laptop, or wall outlet. You can charge both it and the iPhone at the same time.

It doesn't just power the iPhone from its battery -- it will actually bring it to full charge (assuming you haven't drained it quite completely -- its capacity is just a shade less than that of the iPhone itself).

It appears to be the same as this unit from Kensington:
http://us.kensington.com/html/15462.html

Even better may be this unit from Kensington:
http://us.kensington.com/html/15458.html (1800 mAh, and cable to iPhone rather than direct connect, which which puts less strain on the connector).

That's all rather off-topic in an off-topic thread! But perhaps people will find it useful.

[Bob.Kerns]

ROFL, I'm glad political correctness hasn't completely wiped out cynical humor.
-segsurfer

I have nothing against cynical humor -- trust me on that!

Did anyone notice how HAPPY that kid is? Remind you a bit of a Segway Smile?

People fervently arguing over OS choices don't seem near that happy.

[segsurfer]

I have nothing against cynical humor -- trust me on that!

Did anyone notice how HAPPY that kid is? Remind you a bit of a Segway Smile?

People fervently arguing over OS choices don't seem near that happy.

All I'm saying is that political corectness seems to run rampent nowadays and it's nice to see it ignored every now and again. I'm "physically challanged":rolleyes: and yet I still laugh at Josh Blue jokes and Mark Zupan getting slingshot off of a floating dock. I'm not saying that that kid isn't being mocked in the poster and that picking on him is ok, but my inner cynic says that the picture is already out there, the damage is already done, therefore I see no harm in chuckling at it.
-segsurfer

[gbrandwood]

I have nothing against cynical humor -- trust me on that!

Did anyone notice how HAPPY that kid is? Remind you a bit of a Segway Smile?

People fervently arguing over OS choices don't seem near that happy.
I like a joke but the photo should come off - not appropriate for SC. Swearing on it too. Reported to a mod.

At what point does a discussion become an argument?

[Bob.Kerns]

At what point does a discussion become an argument?

I'm not sure we ever reached the "argument" point. The predominant tone seems to me to be that people choose different OSes for reasons that make sense to them, and we've explored some of the trade-offs involved.

I think Apollo is just burned out from having hit too many flame wars about OSes, and didn't really read the threads. But having hit too many myself, I'll cut him slack on that. There can be no question he'd have been wasting his time! (As are we...)

Still, I'd say this is sanest, most rational discussion on the topic I've ever had, that has involved participants from more than one OS!

I wish all discussions here were as respectful. Most are, but the exceptions detract. I think this shows we CAN...

[Bob.Kerns]

All I'm saying is that political corectness seems to run rampent nowadays and it's nice to see it ignored every now and again. I'm "physically challanged":rolleyes: and yet I still laugh at Josh Blue jokes and Mark Zupan getting slingshot off of a floating dock. I'm not saying that that kid isn't being mocked in the poster and that picking on him is ok, but my inner cynic says that the picture is already out there, the damage is already done, therefore I see no harm in chuckling at it.
-segsurfer

I guess my tolerance for such things is in proportion to the ability of the target to defend themselves.

Pick on the rich and powerful all you want -- make it your life work even.

And I'm all in favor of the rest of us developing thicker skins and not taking offense at every turn.

But this crosses a line for me. I think the point could have been made without the image, and the word "retarded", which I might have let pass in another context, when associated WITH the image becomes clearly offensive.

"Retarded" originally meant developmentally slowed -- an inoffensive description. However, it became so heavily used as a pejorative, that people got tired of being labeled this way, and other terms have been substituted for the disability, and "retarded" has become the term of choice lately for "stupid".

Except I don't think it's really the same thing. I think the people using the term still are tying it to the disability, to add weight to the pejorative.

But really, observing its usage, it generally just marks the user of the term as inarticulate, but wanting to deride something he can't really express why he doesn't like.

[wwhopper]

I like a joke but the photo should come off - not appropriate for SC. Swearing on it too. Reported to a mod.

At what point does a discussion become an argument?

have been removed.

This is not an issue of Political Correctness. Humor at the expense of others is out of line.

Now Lets Get Back to the thread's topic - MAC v/s PC!

[Joushou]

iTunes does have a lot more issues on Windows than on the Mac. Some releases have been more stable than others.

But as for Apple being closed -- let me give you just one example: On Windows, you can distribute any version of Java you wish, and install it with your product. Then your product will work, no matter what other version(s) of Java your user may install on his system.

On the Macintosh? The only viable Java is from Apple. It lags years behind every other OS -- they've just recently released 1.6. This forced us to make some very expensive modifications to our software, AND reduce features, to live within the limitations -- some we could make Windows-only, others we had to eliminate entirely.

Apple does not allow you to distribute Java yourself, so you're stuck with whatever Apple has installed on their OS -- and whatever they may install there in the future.

Not allow, as in it is not possible, or it is against some license?
Well, it is definitely possibly to bundle Java, and also quite easy... I definitely had a couple of Java installs running, and i don't see a reason Installer shouldn't be able to put them in place... All it requires is superuser-access, and that is easily acquired by Installer.

I do see your point, a single Java install, only updated by Apple, might result in problems with ports from other OS's, but i'm not actually sure that that limitation is actually there... You could easily distribute a precompiled binary with your version of Java, you could even just have it as one of the application-ressources, meaning it wouldn't require superuser-access to install/run...
Maybe Apple is the only one distributing the latest releases, but using an older release shouldn't be a problem.

The upside is that you're sure to have SOME version of Java, and maybe even the version you expect, if the user has had the system since you released the software. On Windows, you can't assume nearly as much -- but you do get more control.

Microsoft as open-sourced some stuff as well. I don't know the point-by-point list of of what's open-source from either side, so I won't try to compare -- but open-source doesn't mean much in the face of such license restrictions.

That is definitely true, but i don't think their open-source license is that bad...
They simply keep what they don't want you to mess with closed-source, and locked by licenses to the neck.

If I can build an entire MacOS distribution from source, but can't distribute a critical fix to my customers that fixes a bug that makes my application unreliable, then it might as well be a completely closed system.

Why would that be your problem? Just make sure the application works within your warranty-period! ;)

Overall, OSX is more closed than Microsoft. Microsoft. I wouldn't say that's entirely bad -- often Microsoft's openness is regrettable, with obsolete API's hanging around making things slow, complicated, unreliable....

Well, from where i look, Windows is still more closed... I may be looking at it from a wrong point of view...
I'm not sure if Apple locks you to their version of Java by some license, but if they don't, it's not a problem to distribute a different version of Java (older version, GCJ, if you managed to compile a newer version, whatever)...

But i agree, having things closed isn't necessarily always a bad thing...

Also, i think i found a bug in the board-software... sometimes when you edit a post, it doesn't show "Save", "Go Advanced", "Delete" and "Cancel", but "Vote now", "Save", "Cancel", and something else... The buttons have the same positions and functionality, but just the wrong names...

[Civicsman]

Interesting thread.

What forum is this?

[gbrandwood]

Interesting thread.

What forum is this?Tells you across the top of the page :rolleyes:

[Bob.Kerns]

Not allow, as in it is not possible, or it is against some license?


Both, really, though I was referring to the license. The technical issue is that rather than a simple install, they make this complex forest of symbolic links and filenames embedded in applications and libraries, that you can't really even copy it to another location and expect anything robust and maintainable to result.

That was NOT what we expected. We thought we'd at least be able to snapshot the install.


Well, it is definitely possibly to bundle Java, and also quite easy... I definitely had a couple of Java installs running, and i don't see a reason Installer shouldn't be able to put them in place... All it requires is superuser-access, and that is easily acquired by Installer.


Linux or Windows or PalmOS or whatever, yes. Apple, no.


I do see your point, a single Java install, only updated by Apple, might result in problems with ports from other OS's, but i'm not actually sure that that limitation is actually there... You could easily distribute a precompiled binary with your version of Java, you could even just have it as one of the application-ressources, meaning it wouldn't require superuser-access to install/run...


Java is a byte-code-based language -- you can't distribute precompiled binaries. Even if you could, you'd still be relying on the underlying VM libraries. You can't make any of it an application resource, because they embed absolute paths into their binaries. You could make a sandbox and chroot to it, but that requires a setuid root launching app, and security headaches, and maintenance headaches, and a whole lot of disk space, and... It's just not viable.


Maybe Apple is the only one distributing the latest releases, but using an older release shouldn't be a problem.

Apple is the only one allowed to distribute the older releases as well.


Why would that be your problem? Just make sure the application works within your warranty-period! ;)

We LIKE our customers...



Well, from where i look, Windows is still more closed... I may be looking at it from a wrong point of view...
I'm not sure if Apple locks you to their version of Java by some license, but if they don't, it's not a problem to distribute a different version of Java (older version, GCJ, if you managed to compile a newer version, whatever)...

GCJ is too incompatible to consider　-- and an maintenance burden we can't afford to take on.


But i agree, having things closed isn't necessarily always a bad thing...

Also, i think i found a bug in the board-software... sometimes when you edit a post, it doesn't show "Save", "Go Advanced", "Delete" and "Cancel", but "Vote now", "Save", "Cancel", and something else... The buttons have the same positions and functionality, but just the wrong names...

I've seen the same.

[Civicsman]

Interesting thread.

What forum is this?
Tells you across the top of the page

Well, it SAYS Segway Chat, but I don't think so.

I was once on a forum with a remarkably similar name, but in that forum even posts that actually had clear Segway content were summarily deleted because they "weren't worthy of further discussion".

Obviously my browser is confusing URLs again.

[Joushou]

Both, really, though I was referring to the license. The technical issue is that rather than a simple install, they make this complex forest of symbolic links and filenames embedded in applications and libraries, that you can't really even copy it to another location and expect anything robust and maintainable to result.

Sad...

That was NOT what we expected. We thought we'd at least be able to snapshot the install.

Most Linux distributions have a complex forest of links aswell when it comes to Java... Maybe not that complex, but you definitely have to know your way around the symbolic links to change the default VM (Unless you cheat and use one of the "update-defaults" scripts...)

Linux or Windows or PalmOS or whatever, yes. Apple, no.

Damn :/

Java is a byte-code-based language -- you can't distribute precompiled binaries. Even if you could, you'd still be relying on the underlying VM libraries. You can't make any of it an application resource, because they embed absolute paths into their binaries. You could make a sandbox and chroot to it, but that requires a setuid root launching app, and security headaches, and maintenance headaches, and a whole lot of disk space, and... It's just not viable.

I meant to distribute a full set of Java tools, to be able to execute your java classes... Can't you compile the Java compiler & co. into a statically linked binary, or with the include-path set to somewhere locally within the app-resources? If not, that definitely puts a stick in the wheel...

Apple is the only one allowed to distribute the older releases as well.

Argh!

We LIKE our customers...

Well, fair enough, they pay your salary...

GCJ is too incompatible to consider　-- and an maintenance burden we can't afford to take on.

Yeah... the code i ran through GCJ was very simple, and it required me to hack around my previous use of sun's libraries... :/

I've seen the same.

Great, so it's not just me going insane :D (Well, that's still a possibility... :P)

Well, this definitely proves your point... OS X seems more closed than Windows... But i still like it more (It's Unix! And pretty! :D)

Something something makes for a pretty computer, but hard to replace batteries something

The MacBook's are very easy to disassemble... And it's much easier to replace the new batteries than you think.
Also, if you look at the pictures of the new MBP17, you'll know why the removed the latch... almost half of the laptop is just a battery! (Pictures: (Picture of the ten easily accessible screws you need to remove to open) http://s1.guide-images.ifixit.com/igi/4JHEKYQAyQ2VUWOO.large , (Open) http://s1.guide-images.ifixit.com/igi/jiRJP14xxwlSsMIq.large, (More open)http://s1.guide-images.ifixit.com/igi/Gf2GPJlfKvbLJLDZ.large, (Splittet) http://s1.guide-images.ifixit.com/igi/UsoEtUHULZeQKMkI.large)
And, i have never switched batteries... And with 8 hours, i don't think i would have to :P
Even if i had to, i can take my MBP fully apart in no time, and that MBP (gen3.1) is way harder to take apart than the new one...

Well, it SAYS Segway Chat, but I don't think so.

It talks to you!?

I was once on a forum with a remarkably similar name, but in that forum even posts that actually had clear Segway content were summarily deleted because they "weren't worthy of further discussion".

And then the mods became sane? This is just a poll to get an answer to a question in the general/offtopic discussions. And since were not flooding the forums, but staying in this poll, i can't see your problem.

Obviously my browser is confusing URLs again.

Or, you just can't read the URLs :)

[florin]

I'm a converted Mac fan at home, I got a Mac Mini as a server, another Mac Mini for my parents to work on, a 17" Macbook Pro which I took with me when I was traveling (but it's a bit too big), recently got a 13" Macbook which is much more convenient to take with me when I'm traveling. Further on I also got an AppleTV, an iPhone 3G and my dad has my old iPhone 2G.

At work I have to work with Windows Vista, or with Ubuntu in our lab.

Am I an Apple fanboy? I think you can say that I am one yes. Why? Well, my first Mac was the 17" Macbook Pro, I got it in the beginning of 2006. I took it out of the box, plugged it in, started it up and within 10 minutes I got a working system, and it's still working. Before I got a Mac I had to reinstall Windows XP and all the software at least once a year to keep things running smoothly, and you always got to be a bit paranoid about viruses and other crap, which could infect your PC. So as you can imagine the Mac was a great relieve for me.

So Mac is great and Windows sucks? Not completely, I can't install Java 1.6 on my Macbook Pro, since I got the first generation of Intel CPUs. I already got 4 repairs on my Macbook pro, so I think I can conclude that the hardware is of the same poor quality as in the PCs, Luckily I got AppleCare, so everything got repaired free of charge. Certain programs/functionality which you can get in a user friendly way on Windows and Linux, you can't get on the Mac (ClearCase for example). Also the (by HP) controlled installation of Windows Vista at work, you need to reinstall at least once a year to keep it running smoothly. Both OSs have their pros and cons.

So, I think it all comes down on what you personally like most, to which are you emotionally attached. For me it's the Mac, since it's the best user experience for me, you take it out of the box, you start it and 10 minutes later you are having fun. I also believe that the Mac is getting a stronger competitor to Windows with their upcoming Snow Leopard release, which more or less makes the installation of MS Office not needed anymore.

I still have a list of improvements which can be done to various Apple products, including the OS. I would love to have an app-store mechanism for getting software installed on my Mac, it's just too much hassle to go googling for the perfect tool for a certain task.
If somebody from Apple is reading this and is interested in hearing my ideas and wishes, please feel free to contact me.

I think for the majority of the people here, including myself, we're a fanboy/girl from one side of the other. We all have arguments for why we think one OS is better than the other, but in the end. We have no clue about what the manufacturer has in mind or why certain things are or aren't done. I'm sure Apple has valid reasons for not making Java 1.6 available for my CPU for example, but in the end both Microsoft and Apple have one common goal, which is: make as much money as they can, while trying to keep us just satisfied enough so we won't switch to the other OS.

[gbrandwood]

I think I can conclude that the hardware is of the same poor quality as in the PCs, Luckily I got AppleCare, so everything got repaired free of charge.I don't think you can generalise saying that the hardware in PCs is poor quality. PCs can operate on an enourmous range of hardware - all made by different manufacturers, some made by the same but rebranded etc. But all at different price points to reflect their position in the market. What I am saying is, some hardware will be excellent - some will be bad. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Anecdotal hardware failure reports are not sufficient to make such a sweeping statement. All hardware can fail - even the good stuff. If part of my PC dies - I nip to my nearest computer shop and pick up the part I need.

So, I think it all comes down on what you personally like most, to which are you emotionally attached. For me it's the Mac, since it's the best user experience for me, you take it out of the box, you start it and 10 minutes later you are having fun. I also believe that the Mac is getting a stronger competitor to Windows with their upcoming Snow Leopard release, which more or less makes the installation of MS Office not needed anymore.I agree with you on your points regarding emotional attachment. There is a lot of that with fanboys. I don't consider myself to be a Windows fanboy - and I don't know a lot about Macs. But I do sometimes dislike the heavy criticisms made against Windows operating systems which I believe are unfounded and I'm always interested to here how people justify their assumptions in these areas. Quite often they are based - not on fact or empircal evidence - but usually personal experience. In worse cases, nothing more than meandering thoughts. I'm not saying personal experience is invalid, just that because person x had a bad experience on Windows Vista or Windows 7 etc., that they can generalise so harshly.

in the end both Microsoft and Apple have one common goal, which is: make as much money as they can, while trying to keep us just satisfied enough so we won't switch to the other OS.True!

It sounds to me like we are all agreeing that personal choice is what motivates us to buy a particular product in our home - and this may be based on rational review of requirements, fanboy appetite, marketing or simply being in the right place at the right time, with the right product at the right price. The fact is, most people choose Microsoft based PCs.

[KSagal]

What I read is basically that most agree that there is a huge emotional or personal attachment to what hardware/software package a person will choose...

Clearly, there are many who feel that Macs are superior, and are very vocal about it.

Not so clearly from this forum, yet very much clearly from other sources, is that PC based machines are the choice for them.

So I have a question for those who have posted about the superiority of the macs over the PCs... If they are so clearly superior, why have they so much smaller a piece of the market?

Maybe a better way to phrase the question is like this... Is what the average Mac user requires from their choice of computer the same as that which the majority of computer users consider what they require?

While I do not think that the most sales equates to the superior product, I do feel that the most sales (in a free system) does reflect that which meets the needs of the largest demographic.

Most would agree that a Ferrari or a Pantera are superior cars to a Kia, but many would also argue that while nicer cars, they may not fit the needs as well, nor be worthy of the extra expense of purchase nor maintenance for the average car owner...

By the way, that automotive analogy does not have any direct correlation to this debate... As I sit here typing on my Toshiba Laptop, I do not want any mac users to flame me because I just called their mac a Kia...:D

[Bob.Kerns]

A lot of why the PC has a larger market share today has to do with history.

The PC was from IBM -- back in the day when the 'B' in IBM was synonymous with Business and the M meant 'Machines'.

Now, IBM is just a giant consulting company -- no 'M'. But back then, IBM was the established brand for business. This gave the PC a huge leg up in penetrating the business world -- and it looked and acted a lot more like the Business Machines the business world was familiar and comfortable with.

The Macintosh looked like, and felt like, and WAS like, a consumer toy.

Architecturally, both were SERIOUSLY flawed platforms, with major impediments to their growth. In the case of the PC, this was largely due to a poor choice of processor (driven by strong short-term pragmatics, but a decision that complicated and slowed growth considerably, especially during the earlier years).

The Macintosh used a better processor architecture -- but threw away that advantage by making crazy assumptions about how much memory would be needed.

And both made the assumption that users would only run one program at a time, and that the OS didn't need any protection because these were "personal computers". Thus, a bug in the app would bring down the OS, or trash the entire filesystem, etc. A bug in the app would make it impossible to even get back to the finder/explorer.

And viruses. I believe the first significant virus appeared on the Mac -- certainly the first I ever had to fight was.

It was only a few years before these restrictions began to really chafe. However, once these decisions were made, they were seriously hard to undo. How to move forward and not break everything, piss off and lose all your application vendors, and likely lose all your customers?

Both Microsoft and Apple faced this problem at around the same time. The difference? To my mind, the big difference is that Microsoft had the resources to address it more quickly. This was during the Sculley years at Apple, and Apple began to lose market share significantly, as memory restrictions, lack of robustness, lack of true multi-tasking difficulty with networking, and a host of other issues reinforced the "PCs are for business" meme.

I expected Apple to die at this point -- though I expected it to take quite a while. I jumped ship for my personal computing, refusing to spend more money on a doomed platform.

In the meantime, Windows managed to transition people to the Windows NT code base, though they had to maintain essentially three simultaneous OSs to do it -- the DOS-based OS, the NT-based OS, and the DOS-under-NT subsystem.

But then Jobs+NeXT bought Apple for some large negative sum, in the neighborhood of -$400M as I recall. (That is, Apple paid a lot of money to give up control to Jobs). Using the NeXT code as a base, they basically threw out the MacOS I was so familiar with and replaced it with a Mach-based Unix core, and came up with a compatibility scheme (less thorough than Microsoft's transition through the same compatibility hell, but they had a lot less time and were making a bigger change).

And not only did they escape from the dungeons of tiny-computer hell and get a real OS -- they even changed processor architecture, and actually BECAME one of the largest PC vendors! (Yes, now the Mac is a PC -- a special one that will also run MacOS).

So you can attribute the PC dominance to a lot of things, but I think the single most pivotal is that the PC originated with IBM, and the biggest buyers of this class of hardware was originally business.

Had the board voted for Jobs over Sculley, we might have a very different situation now. But there wouldn't have been a NeXT OS, so it's really hard to extrapolate.

But mostly, I don't think technical differences had much to do with it, EXCEPT during the period when Microsoft had an actual OS (the NT code base), while Apple did not (the original MacOS code base). That was a large enough difference that it drove purchasing decisions. It also coincided with the rise of the Internet, and networking and servers rose in importance, and during this interval, the PC enjoyed a major technical advantage -- and non-PC vendors like Sun, IBM, and HP were still players in that arena).

[Gihgehls]

For what it is worth, there is nothing about Vista or Win7 that magically slows down your computer over time. People with computers tend to crap them up, not watching what they install. If you crap up a computer so badly that you need to reinstall the OS every year, you're doing something wrong. Then again, some people might believe that you SHOULD be able to do whatever you want to your computer and still have it function perfectly. I recall some posters on this board who believed they should be able to charge and discharge their seg batteries however they wanted to without suffering ill effects. The truth is that if you do what you should be doing, a windows OS (and your segway batteries) will give you many years of service. :)

Also, I've seen PLENTY of osx installs that had the menu bar slammed with running programs, tons of things launching at startup, viruses, etc. If you treat your OSX installation poorly, it will do the same things windows will do.

[Bob.Kerns]

For what it is worth, there is nothing about Vista or Win7 that magically slows down your computer over time. People with computers tend to crap them up, not watching what they install. If you crap up a computer so badly that you need to reinstall the OS every year, you're doing something wrong. Then again, some people might believe that you SHOULD be able to do whatever you want to your computer and still have it function perfectly. I recall some posters on this board who believed they should be able to charge and discharge their seg batteries however they wanted to without suffering ill effects. The truth is that if you do what you should be doing, a windows OS (and your segway batteries) will give you many years of service. :)

Also, I've seen PLENTY of osx installs that had the menu bar slammed with running programs, tons of things launching at startup, viruses, etc. If you treat your OSX installation poorly, it will do the same things windows will do.

No matter how you look at it, the problem of people's Windows systems getting slower over time is real. You can blame the user, but that really misses the point.

The problem is -- the cause is EXTREMELY diffuse. It's not just one problem, it's a whole host of MANY problems, most of which are usually minor. But either they add up, or in a particular user's case, they become extreme.

The problem can be disk fragmentation, or it can be a bloated temp file directory, or startup applications, or a virus, or growth in the size of data the user uses running up against the available physical memory, or software updates that take more room, or Windows Updates, or any of a million different causes, some unique to a particular user.

I don't know how this compares to the Macintosh. The Macintosh does some things more simply, so the problem may less severe.

But I don't think the user should be blamed for simply trying to use his machine. Often, the long-term performance impact of a user decision is simply not apparent. Often, it's something that really should be blamed on the author of the software (silly icon tray applets, for example -- Quicktime, WinZip -- are these really so important to my daily life that I have to have them initialize at startup, and consume some amount of resources continuously?)

I try really hard to reinstall only when there is a compelling reason -- such as a new OS. I've been known to convert a uni-processor EIDE install to a multi-processor SCSI install just to avoid reinstallation when I got new hardware.

But every so often, I have to go to significant effort to perform maintenance to maintain performance -- and even then, when I DO reinstall, I inevitably see a performance improvement. And all that effort has no value -- if the OS could take care of it for me, I'd have just that much more time to flame about other OS issues.... :)

[Joushou]

What I read is basically that most agree that there is a huge emotional or personal attachment to what hardware/software package a person will choose...

Clearly, there are many who feel that Macs are superior, and are very vocal about it.

Not so clearly from this forum, yet very much clearly from other sources, is that PC based machines are the choice for them.

So I have a question for those who have posted about the superiority of the macs over the PCs... If they are so clearly superior, why have they so much smaller a piece of the market?

Bob answered that question very well... And since i would have said roughly the same, i i'll just point you in the direction of his:

<-- (Previous page :) )

Maybe a better way to phrase the question is like this... Is what the average Mac user requires from their choice of computer the same as that which the majority of computer users consider what they require?

Well, I'm definitely not an average user, but what i required at the time was a 17" laptop with high-res display (1920x1200), which wasn't ten times larger than what was necessary. I looked at the MBP, looked at the price, and looked away...
It took a while for me to decide what laptop to get (I had some bad experiences with some PC brands, so i was looking at all possibilities), but then i actually had the money... I looked back at apple's site, and decided "Why not try? You're already running a patched version on OS X on your HP desktop, why not get a nice small laptop, which actually runs it well?"... My main requirement was NOT bundled with Windows (I don't want to pay for something i'm going to remove immediately :P)... Also full compatibility with some Unix'ish OS (Which the Mac is with Mac OS X... Otherwise i would have to google myself to death, looking for the perfect Linux/BSD laptop).

That was the main thing... The main con of it was at first the keyboard-layout :P
I couldn't find any of the special-characters! Now i can't find them on a PC :S

While I do not think that the most sales equates to the superior product, I do feel that the most sales (in a free system) does reflect that which meets the needs of the largest demographic.

I agree, and the PC probably fits most peoples needs (Most software is for Windows, and there's a plenty of linux-distributions to choose from if you prefer that)... But i'm always different ;)

Most would agree that a Ferrari or a Pantera are superior cars to a Kia, but many would also argue that while nicer cars, they may not fit the needs as well, nor be worthy of the extra expense of purchase nor maintenance for the average car owner...

No way! Kia beats Ferrari AND Pantera!

By the way, that automotive analogy does not have any direct correlation to this debate... As I sit here typing on my Toshiba Laptop, I do not want any mac users to flame me because I just called their mac a Kia...:D

A Kia is a GOOD thing! >:| (Just kidding of course, and no, i don't have one... We don't have any asian cars, other than our Hyundai Galloper (Which is in fact a licensed Mitsubishi)... The other 7 are VW and Ford :) )

Also, I've seen PLENTY of osx installs that had the menu bar slammed with running programs, tons of things launching at startup, viruses, etc. If you treat your OSX installation poorly, it will do the same things windows will do.

You can screw OS X up, but i doubt it would do exactly as Windows... For example, we don't have Blue Screen of Death, we have Grey Dialog of Death! (Kernel-panic... Only experienced 3 times, twice on my OSX86 install on my HP)...

I have screwed things up several times, but it was entirely my fault... One of the times, i accidentally installed OSX86 over my OS X install... It just froze! :O (The package was created wrong, letting it think that it should just be installed to the main HDD... *sniff*)...
Another time i messed with the GPT, and killed it... Reinstall once again...

Retail-versions of OS X have never let me down... Early 10.6 builds weren't oh so stable, but it never crashed completely... And the build i'm on now (10a394), seems completely stable...

OS X of course have problems, but i have had uncountable BSOD's when i ran Windows, but i have had 1 panic in OS X... And i tend to mess with internal parts that i'm not intended to mess with...

Back to complete fanaticism: Go Mac! We're 6 more than the PC!

[Gihgehls]

BSODS tend to be caused by hardware problems...

[Bob.Kerns]

BSODS tend to be caused by hardware problems...

More the other way around. Hardware problems tend to cause BSODs.

But so do driver problems. The shear number of PC hardware drivers pretty much ensures that most will be written by people who aren't really qualified to do so. It's gotten better -- Microsoft deliberately broke a lot of bad drivers with Vista, and so you had a lot of old hardware that either had to get improved drivers that followed more of the rules, or be discarded and replaced.

Still, this is a big area where Microsoft's openness has hurt them in the past.

[Joushou]

It can be caused by many things... Memory errors, cpu miscalculations (Usually because of voltage), or fatal software errors (Which, again is mostly caused by the above)...

In most/all of my BSOD's, it was software, not my hardware (This was running stock clock/voltages, and i ran memtest and a cpu stress-tests after some of the crashes).

Kernel-panics are also mostly caused by fatal hardware errors, but again all my crashes in OS X and Windows were fatal software errors... I learned what *not* to touch while i ran SuSE :P (Oddly enough, removing PCI-cards while running wasn't fatal... :P)

And, i would call driver-problems software-related, not hardware :)

[lilnyc]

Born PC, will die a Mac. Once you go Mac...you never go back, hahaha!!

I switched to Mac in 2006, and am thrilled with it. I have converted a few people to it, and more to the iPhone.

I have an OQO 2 (http://www.oqo.com/products/index.html) as my PC, and it collects dust unless I need to use Windows to hack something.

If I could afford it, I'd buy a desktop Windows machine just to use Avid (a PC and 3DS Max (PC only) as well as Final Cut (Mac) and Maya (PC and Mac). I don't want boot-whatever-ya-call-it on my Mac. I'd prefer a dedicated machine.

[Joushou]

Born PC, will die a Mac. Once you go Mac...you never go back, hahaha!!

I switched to Mac in 2006, and am thrilled with it. I have converted a few people to it, and more to the iPhone.

Good... Good... *Dr. Evil Laugh*

I have an OQO 2 (http://www.oqo.com/products/index.html) as my PC, and it collects dust unless I need to use Windows to hack something.

If I could afford it, I'd buy a desktop Windows machine just to use Avid (a PC and 3DS Max (PC only) as well as Final Cut (Mac) and Maya (PC and Mac). I don't want boot-whatever-ya-call-it on my Mac. I'd prefer a dedicated machine.

It's called BootCamp ;)
And you could just buy some monster Mac Pro, with the enough power to virtualize 3DSMax :P

[vanslam]

I have a Power Mac G5, an IMac, A Dell 14in laptop and a Dell Netbook running Snow Leopard. I think that covers it for now. :)

[Gihgehls]

Good... Good... *Dr. Evil Laugh* It's called BootCamp ;) And you could just buy some monster Mac Pro, with the enough power to virtualize 3DSMax :P

3D acceleration is still somewhat poor on with VMWare, however, there are zero downsides to using Bootcamp, other than the time it takes to reboot.

[Rocknail]

Mac will come out on top over windows soon. I had a hp pavilion that was the worst, the power supply didnt work and it would shut off at random times. I just bought a used ibook g4 and it works great, it has never frozen, even after I was using four programs and transferring 400 songs to Itunes, and the mac was just a fast. The wifi is amazing as well, it stays connected all the time and I can download super fast over wifi. Mac all the way, if you cant get a mac go for Ubuntu on a PC. It does take a little while to get used to a mac and how it works but it is way better then PCs any day.

[Gihgehls]

Mac OS would already be on top if Apple made it a teensy bit less painful to get it running on commodity hardware. As it is now, if you want the best OS, you have to sacrifice on hardware or buy a $Texas Mac Pro.

[Oct]

Mac here, I am a developer and like the Unix environment and Mac has the best Unix GUI for the more mundane tasks, I quite like Ubuntu, after Unix, Linux feels familiar.

[FrostyEOD]

HP laptop running XP Pro
Compaq laptop w/ Vista (soon to be upgraded to Win7)
13" Mac book pro w/ snow leopard
and new iMac 21.5" shows up Tuesday (W00t!)

I am an amateur photographer and love the Mac for that sort of stuff, windows machines are for games, trips to really dirty dusty places or guests.

You pay the "Apple tax" but you save in other ways like no viruses, better reliability, easier crash recovery, etc.

Different horses for different courses

[gbrandwood]

Mac will come out on top over windows soon. I had a hp pavilion that was the worst, the power supply didnt work and it would shut off at random times. I just bought a used ibook g4 and it works great, it has never frozen, even after I was using four programs and transferring 400 songs to Itunes, and the mac was just a fast. The wifi is amazing as well, it stays connected all the time and I can download super fast over wifi. Mac all the way, if you cant get a mac go for Ubuntu on a PC. It does take a little while to get used to a mac and how it works but it is way better then PCs any day.
Care to define your definition of soon? ;)

There's a lot of love on here for Macs and iphones etc. and I'm fine with that (not that my opinion, or the opinions of users on this board constitutes the correct assessment of the actual situation - which varies for everyone). But it does seem to strike me that there is a theme amongst pro Apple people surrounding just how much better they say or think their stuff is. Maybe it is better. Maybe us Microsoft users are just too shy to say how great we think our OSs are, or how wonderful open PC architecture is... maybe we daren't say these things for fear of being wrong and out coolified by Apple fans? I really can't say. Maybe we don't feel the need to assert our choices of IT in such a way. We do what we do. If all Windows users so actively voiced their opinions then it would be quite a deafening noise.

One of these days I might have to try a Mac for more than 5 mins and see if anything sticks. But I'm much more likely to try Windows 7 because overall the move will cost less, the software will run on my existing hardware and its what I know (more or less). I guess some people will look at things this way and is why I wonder "how soon" it will be before all Windows users realise they have been going wrong for all of these years and Macs do come out on top.

[florin]

Care to define your definition of soon? ;)


I'm afraid that it will take a long time, companies still like to see the Mac as an expensive device for graphic artists.

The first things I have seen of a Mac were the ease of use of Finder, the volume control buttons on the keyboard and some other small things, combined with an enthusiastic story of the owner were enough to convince me. But I'm sure that the majority of the Windows users need some more time/reasons to get convinced to switch to a Mac.

Our IT manager can't see that the Mac is after 3 years cheaper than a PC, simply because the cost of reinstalling Windows Vista every year and the involved down-time are going from another budget and aren't clearly visible.

I can only hope that the PC users on this forum will have some serious time to take a closer look to a Mac. My MacBook Pro (from early 2006) still works fine, got it out of the box, started working with it, did twice a OS upgrade, and funny enough everything remains working, no incompatible driver issues or what so ever. Combine that with no worries about viruses, and I have enough reasons to only hope that the PC users will find out that there is a life beyond Windows and it is actually cheaper than a PC and almost worry-free.

[gbrandwood]

My MacBook Pro (from early 2006) still works fine, got it out of the box, started working with it, did twice a OS upgrade, and funny enough everything remains working, no incompatible driver issues or what so ever. Combine that with no worries about viruses, and I have enough reasons to only hope that the PC users will find out that there is a life beyond Windows and it is actually cheaper than a PC and almost worry-free.Our personal experiences are largely what influences our opinions and your anecdote about your laptop is a good illustration about why you see it your way. But, I see it another way.

I expect the laptops I bought in 2006 to continue to work. The majority of the ones we use in work (the ones which are now out of warranty and support) do continue to work and, whilst they're not everyone's first choice, I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to work for another 2 years. Nothing to write home about. They run XP (released in 2001). I think they came with SP1 and have since moved to SP2 and SP3. Rather large upgrades. No driver issues there. The key to longevity is a mixture of hardware, software and levels of use/abuse!

Viruses. Well, I don't worry about viruses. I have suitable anti-virus software and good practices. It's good that Mac users say they don't need to worry about viruses - but I don't worry because I know I am protected. If someone did create a nasty virus on a Mac (I've not researched this so I'm assuming none exist), well you'd be pretty much left wide open. And, if as some Mac users are suggesting, eventually Macs do become dominant - or even approach the kind of numbers of "PCs" out in the wild, I imagine the virus threat situation would be different. Perhaps by that time - however soon or far off it may be -or even if it ever does occur, whenever/if ever, if Macs become a bigger target for virus programmers and glory zealots, you won't start having to worry pretty quickly! You certainly have your share of security alerts.

"I'm a skoda driver. I don't have to worry about people stealing my car as they're all busy stealing Audi's. So I won't bother with an alarm or immobilser."

You say you hope PC users open their eyes to the virtues of Macs (not meaning to put words in your mouth) - I say that as a PC user I have my eyes wide open. IT departments will choose PCs because they suit their requirements, their environment, skills, SLAs etc. Apple will have to go a long way to change that - and I don't know if they want to do this, if they're big enough to achieve this, and in the mean time, their competitors aren't equally innovative and forthright in ensuring it doesn't happen.

[florin]

I expect the laptops I bought in 2006 to continue to work. The majority of the ones we use in work (the ones which are now out of warranty and support) do continue to work and, whilst they're not everyone's first choice, I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to work for another 2 years. Nothing to write home about. They run XP (released in 2001). I think they came with SP1 and have since moved to SP2 and SP3. Rather large upgrades. No driver issues there. The key to longevity is a mixture of hardware, software and levels of use/abuse!

You should expect that, that where they were intended for. As long as you stay on XP, you won't have problems. Stay away from Vista and wait with upgrading to Windows 7. When you want to upgrade, first check if the software you are using is compatible with Windows 7, or that you need a newer version. If your using the standard/regular software, this shouldn't be a problem.

I'm sure you're right, Windows can work pretty well, I guess. As long as you don't want to upgrade right away when it's released and don't have an IT department that forces you to use old versions of drivers.

You say you hope PC users open their eyes to the virtues of Macs (not meaning to put words in your mouth) - I say that as a PC user I have my eyes wide open. IT departments will choose PCs because they suit their requirements, their environment, skills, SLAs etc. Apple will have to go a long way to change that - and I don't know if they want to do this, if they're big enough to achieve this, and in the mean time, their competitors aren't equally innovative and forthright in ensuring it doesn't happen.

I think they are further with that than you expect, one of the Dutch Mac-related podcasts visited a school last year. The school had decided to switch 100% to Mac, probably with a lot of help from Apple. The IT manager was proud that they could give the kids admin rights and didn't have to restrict them,he was saying that it would be a good learning process for the kids when they messed up their Mac. When it would happen they could bring their Macbook to the IT department and 15 minutes later they got their Macbook back with everything working again and with all the software they had installed back on their Macbook. Believe me, I would love to have our IT department to have a system like that, in our case they need something like half a day to get Windows back on it again and than I need a whole day to get all my software back up and running again :(

So I really believe you are right, a PC can probably work fine, if you have a good IT department.

[gbrandwood]

When you want to upgrade, first check if the software you are using is compatible with Windows 7, or that you need a newer version. If your using the standard/regular software, this shouldn't be a problem.

I'm sure you're right, Windows can work pretty well, I guess. As long as you don't want to upgrade right away when it's released and don't have an IT department that forces you to use old versions of drivers.Microsoft released for both Vista and Windows 7, a system readiness tool which assess your existing hardware and software (they may have done one for XP too, can't remember). So, if we did plan to move on those machines, we would know in advance whether we would have any driver or performance related issues. The thing about the PC environment is, you don't have a standard hardware set so you can come across some weird and wonderful issues if you have some funky hardware. But that has caused a proliferation of PC hardware and add-ons which I would say has brought about more advantages than disadvantages. There are plenty of ways to verify whether the drivers have been approved by Microsoft so as to reduce the likelihood of any issues.

I think they are further with that than you expect, one of the Dutch Mac-related podcasts visited a school last year. The school had decided to switch 100% to Mac, probably with a lot of help from Apple.If Macs work best for them - great. But was that the only school? How many schools are set up like that? In my experience, schools tend to have Macs for music/video work and then PCs for everyone else, including the staff. But, that's just my experience, and not necessarily indicative of the whole primary education sector. I work in the higher education sector at a large University and we support PCs. My previous employers have all been large public sector bodies (NHS, local government) and it has always been the same there. My employer recognises a few people will want to use a Mac in the work environment so they offer what they can and those users receive limited support.
The IT manager was proud that they could give the kids admin rights and didn't have to restrict them,he was saying that it would be a good learning process for the kids when they messed up their Mac. When it would happen they could bring their Macbook to the IT department and 15 minutes later they got their Macbook back with everything working again and with all the software they had installed back on their Macbook.All of our users have Admin rights. Each and every one (students have a slightly lower level but over 4000 staff are all admin users). Lots of organisations lock things down to the nth degree and there are pros and cons either way. We find it works well for us. And, if we have a situation that requires a system restoration, we have an equally effective imaging routine which restores the desktop to exactly how it was prior to the incident. It probably takes about 20-25 mins to be honest - but we do have a highly customised version of Windows pre-loaded with tons of software.

I wish I could justify purchasing a MacBook just to try one out - but I simply can't afford to take the gamble - and even if I did and found Macs were the answer to all my PC problems, I'd then be frustrated at not having total interoperability with the mainstream systems in use with my employers.

[Gihgehls]

Plenty of viruses on Mac, but there aren't enough Mac's out there to make them suitable members of a bot net. Darwin, due to its heritage, has really nice security features, but to say that viruses are nonexistent on Macs is to be painfully ignorant of today's computing landscape.

[Oct]

You could always run VMware on a partition.

[Joushou]

I'm only aware of one or two viruses for Mac, one which was only bundled with a pirated version of iWork... But it's easy enough to make a virus for a Mac... Infecting the system without a users interaction is tricky, however... Their implementation of Unix BSD and Mach makes a pretty damn solid secure system, though it pulls a couple of points in speed...

But, I couldn't care less about viruses... I never used antivirus on Windows, and I have no intentions of using it here... If something somehow managed to get in (Which so far haven't happened for me on any platform), I'm pretty sure I can remove it again. ;)

The reason I use Mac OS X, and not some other *nix, is that OS X seems more complete in it's UI, while most graphical environment for Linux and BSD tend to be held together with band aid, if you know what I mean. :P Also, there's more applications available.

The reason I use a Mac, is because the quality seems to be way higher than your average laptop... And, it's a heck of a lot slimmer and prettier!

Cons: PRICE.

(Sorry, I wrote this on my G1, so it may have a lot of typos ;) )

[gbrandwood]

But, I couldn't care less about viruses... I never used antivirus on Windows, and I have no intentions of using it here... If something somehow managed to get in (Which so far haven't happened for me on any platform), I'm pretty sure I can remove it again. ;)With viruses being viruses - removing them is all fine and good - but knowing you have one in the first place and dealing with whatever the virus does whilst you are infected is another matter. Especially if you are on a LAN.

Some people don't worry about backups either until they lose everything... :eek: Been there.

[FrostyEOD]

So, a bad two days for laptops for me.

My 13" Mac Book Pro (11 days old) broke (iSight camera stopped working), took it to Apple store and they replaced entire laptop.

While upgrading to Win7 from Vista on my Compaq, I got the "unable to install, rolling back to previous version" error then the endless restart loop. (I was able to get a clean install on third try.

Nothing is perfect, but I'm very happy with Apple service and , so far, happy with Win7.

Let me suggest that everyone maintain good backups of their data.

[Bob.Kerns]

I'm only aware of one or two viruses for Mac, one which was only bundled with a pirated version of iWork... But it's easy enough to make a virus for a Mac... Infecting the system without a users interaction is tricky, however... Their implementation of Unix BSD and Mach makes a pretty damn solid secure system, though it pulls a couple of points in speed...


For reference, however, the first virus infestation I had to clean up was on MacOS. That's what Macs used to run before they ran Unix, more a fancy bootstrap loader with a UI, than an actual OS. No security at all to speak of, so it spread through the appletalk network from machine to machine, without user intervention.

That was about 1987. About a decade earlier, I created an experimental "virus", back before either the PC or Mac or any sort of personal computer, really (well, the MIT Lisp machines, and the early Xerox computers -- Alto and Dorado). This would attach itself to free consoles, and replicate to any free console. It was as polite as I could make it, and would disappear from any given console if you asked it, and had a back door to make ALL instances disappear simultaneously.

So it seemed a harmless experiment -- the idea was to see how hard it would be to eradicate.

It uncovered a bug in the OS, however, crashing the system in the middle of the day for everyone. Nobody yelled at me, but I felt bad enough... and indeed, it presaged future misbehavior by various viruses due to bugs.


But, I couldn't care less about viruses... I never used antivirus on Windows, and I have no intentions of using it here... If something somehow managed to get in (Which so far haven't happened for me on any platform), I'm pretty sure I can remove it again. ;)


Remind me not to look at your messages without my virus-proof sunglasses; I wouldn't want to get infected!


The reason I use Mac OS X, and not some other *nix, is that OS X seems more complete in it's UI, while most graphical environment for Linux and BSD tend to be held together with band aid, if you know what I mean. :P Also, there's more applications available.


Yes, I definitely know what you mean. Although if you do enough configuration, you can make Linux sort of usable. I prefer Kubuntu for that reason -- not nearly as much PITA getting it usable.

As for your last point -- while that's a reason to prefer MacOS to Linux, it's also a reason to prefer Windows to MacOS, and in fact I suspect that's the biggest reason for the world at large. It amounts to a sort of inertia, that makes it difficult for the Mac to gain market share (and also for Linux, whose fans still dream of it taking over on the desktop). Apple does seem to be making headway on that, branching out from core areas where apps have always been plentiful, such as K-12 education, and graphic design.


The reason I use a Mac, is because the quality seems to be way higher than your average laptop... And, it's a heck of a lot slimmer and prettier!

Cons: PRICE.

(Sorry, I wrote this on my G1, so it may have a lot of typos ;) )

It's not just that the hardware is high quality -- but also the drivers for that hardware actually work. I think the biggest single reliability problem overall for PCs is that there are more device drivers for PCs than there exist competent device driver programmers capable of creating them. (And QA engineers, managers -- the whole team needed to create a quality device driver).

As much as I dislike closed, proprietary systems, this is the benefit.

[Bigpond]

Has to be Mac for me. Every time I boot up a Windows PC I 'm reminded of just why the Mac should rule.

[Efishal]

I have two machines - both macs! I have a G5 tower and a Macbook Pro!

If you are artistic or graphics oriented the Mac is the only way to go!

PCs........... well, my elderly mother plays solitaire on one!