Segway - Military - Battery Life

[GlideMaster]

I figure if the Military Special Ops are going to try and use the Segway on special missions with the amount of fast starts, hard stops and moving at top end speeds or better, they will be in need of some special batteries or more batteries. Plus there will be no time to stop and replace batteries with an allen wrench. You would need to be able to snap in the battery like a rifle magazine.

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by weskifm

I figure if the Military Special Ops are going to try and use the Segway on special missions with the amount of fast starts, hard stops and moving at top end speeds or better, they will be in need of some special batteries or more batteries. Plus there will be no time to stop and replace batteries with an allen wrench. You would need to be able to snap in the battery like a rifle magazine.


Just make a big mission-specific battery that could also act as supplementel power for all the operator's personal electronics; radio, night vision, etc. I'd envision a Segway's use to be best for short, quick, stealthy operations anyway, things like the Entebbe raid: A dozen or more Segways rolling off the ramp of a transport and across the tarmac to secure a perimeter. Probably not the best choice of vehicle where you're going long distances or expecting to come under enemy fire. Use something like a DPV to get close, then pop the Segways off the back for a final approach or recon.
http://www.navyseals.com/equip/bug.html

Weskifm, I'm curious about the Segway's potential on rough trails. Can you give us the total width of your unit and it's ground clearance under the rider platform, ie, the minimum width of a trail and the highest obstruction it could clear? Have you used it on anything other than pavement?

[Blinky]

JohnM writes..
quote:Have you used it on anything other than pavement?
Its looks as though Weskifm was going over some gravel in the pictures he was kindly to provided for us in his folder in this site.

Good question otherwise.

[GlideMaster]

Per your request the following information is provided.
Platform height: of both the e-Series and the i-Series is 8" (21 cm).
Footprint: 19" x 25" (48 x 64 cm).
Weight: e-Series 95lbs (43 kg) i-Series 83 lbs (38 kg) [^]



quote:Originally posted by JohnM

quote:Originally posted by weskifm

I figure if the Military Special Ops are going to try and use the Segway on special missions with the amount of fast starts, hard stops and moving at top end speeds or better, they will be in need of some special batteries or more batteries. Plus there will be no time to stop and replace batteries with an allen wrench. You would need to be able to snap in the battery like a rifle magazine.


Just make a big mission-specific battery that could also act as supplementel power for all the operator's personal electronics; radio, night vision, etc. I'd envision a Segway's use to be best for short, quick, stealthy operations anyway, things like the Entebbe raid: A dozen or more Segways rolling off the ramp of a transport and across the tarmac to secure a perimeter. Probably not the best choice of vehicle where you're going long distances or expecting to come under enemy fire. Use something like a DPV to get close, then pop the Segways off the back for a final approach or recon.
http://www.navyseals.com/equip/bug.html

Weskifm, I'm curious about the Segway's potential on rough trails. Can you give us the total width of your unit and it's ground clearance under the rider platform, ie, the minimum width of a trail and the highest obstruction it could clear? Have you used it on anything other than pavement?

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by weskifm

Platform height: of both the e-Series and the i-Series is 8" (21 cm).



Right. That's the height of the top of the platform, but what's the distance between the ground and the bottom of the platform, ie, ground clearance.

What I'm driving at is, how rough can a trail be before the underside of the Segway gets hung up on an obstruction or the obstruction hits the front of the platform? If the ground clearance is 4 inches, then an enemy could easily deny a Segway the use of a trail by littering it with randomly placed 6 inch high rocks and logs. The trail would still be usable to 4x4s, bikes or foot traffic.

(Now someone will jump in and suggest mounting a 'dozer blade on the front of a special ops Segway. To which I will reply,"But I thought the Segway was supposed to recoil if it hit something?")

[ftropea]

Regarding your last point John about recoiling... I've got this gut feeling that military grade Segways won't be "pedestrian friendly" :)

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[Blinky]

Ftropea writes,.
quote:Regarding your last point John about recoiling... I've got this gut feeling that military grade Segways won't be "pedestrian friendly" :)

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea
We could probably expect something right out of the movie 'Mad Max' from Segway. [}:)]

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by Blinky

Ftropea writes,.
quote:Regarding your last point John about recoiling... I've got this gut feeling that military grade Segways won't be "pedestrian friendly" :)

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea
We could probably expect something right out of the movie 'Mad Max' from Segway. [}:)]


Not likely if it can be stopped by a 6 inch high rock (or a 6 inch deep pot-hole). If you want Mad Max, go with the DPV.

[ftropea]

JohnM, is it a stretch of the imagination to suggest a military version of the Segway would have different performance charactersitics than an industrial version? Perhaps a bit speedier... and less "pedestrian" and "bump" friendly?

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by ftropea

JohnM, is it a stretch of the imagination to suggest a military version of the Segway would have different performance charactersitics than an industrial version? Perhaps a bit speedier... and less "pedestrian" and "bump" friendly?



It's such a stretch that I doubt it would be recognizable as a Segway. To raise the platform sufficiently high to clear the kind of obstacles that any other all-terrain vehicle can handle would put the standing rider so high that a seated or recumbent position might make more sense. A seated rider would then require a control system more like the IBOT that Segway. Motor bike type wheels of 20" diameter or greater would handle rough terrain better, especially if there was some sort of suspension system. Now toss in a machine gun (silenced of course) with a HADDS (Helmet And Display Sighting System)and you're ready to rock and roll. This baby is gonna need some monster batteries. Very Big Stretch. Semper Gumbus.

But if you back up to my original suggestion, for an Entebbe-type raid, quick in and out over paved surfaces, the existing Segway would work just fine.

[ftropea]

We're not talking about running through walls John. Take a look at the Segways in this photo (the one labeled "Russian Segways" - particularly the one one front and center):

http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/photo_album_view.asp?cname=Curiosities&mid=5&cid=8#

Now that's starting to look like something geared for some "off road" action. Of course if you run into an obstacle like a wall - it doesn't matter what kind of off road vehicle you're in - you're not going to go through it. However, if we're talking about rough terrain.. with rocks and such (even those dreaded 6 inch high obstalces).. as long as your wheel is the first thing to make contact with the obstacle, you should be OK - pulling yourself up and over the obstacle.

Those are some serious tires, right? :)

BTW: About your recoiling point... Do you disagree that the Segway HT could be programmed so that it wouldn't recoil if it hit an obstacle like a rock? Aren't the control loops what define some of these performance characteristics? How about a "silver" key for soldiers?

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by ftropea
.. as long as your wheel is the first thing to make contact with the obstacle, you should be OK


Thank you for proving my point.

[ftropea]

Oh man, and you're going to discount everything else I said! Oh well :)

By the way, what happens to a tank when it hits a boulder dead center?

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[ftropea]

What does the Humvee do when it hits a boulder head on?

Get my point? There are obviously practical limitations which depend on the type of vehicle we're talking about. Inclines being one consideration...

However, I'm not saying a Segway could handle all terrains. I'm just saying that a military version, perhaps with wheels as depicted here - http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=288 - might be useful in the field.

Imagine quick and mass deployment of troops..

Imagine the ability for Segways to carry additional supplies and materials...

Imagine remote controlling Segways... loading them up with critical medical and food supplies.. and sending them into hostile areas, perhaps towards troops in desperate need for those supplies. Plus they could help pull wounded soldiers out of harms way.

If any finds this to be a stretch of the imagination, then what can I say? This seems practical and realistic to me.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[JohnM]

Ground Clearance

Abrams Tank - 15 inches
Humvee - 16 inches
Bradley AFV - 18 inches
Segway - 4(?)inches

Size matters.
Thanks for helping me make my point Frank.

[ftropea]

Come on John, just indulge me.. read my posts in their entirety. Pretty please? :)

By the way, what happens when that Abrams tank hits a boulder 4 feet in diameter? ;)

Could it be that each of those military vehicles actually have technical, design related, performance limitations? Nooooo, couldn't be!

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[JohnM]

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5265/paragator.htm

One complaint from the field - "too low to the ground" - 7 inches.

[Blinky]

JohnM writes,,
quote:Ground Clearance

Abrams Tank - 15 inches
Humvee - 16 inches
Bradley AFV - 18 inches
Segway - 4(?)inches

Size matters.
Thanks for helping me make my point Frank.
What about when a dirt or speed bike hits one JohnM, just curious?

Bike: -1? ;)

[Blinky]

JohnM writes..
quote:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ftropea
.. as long as your wheel is the first thing to make contact with the obstacle, you should be OK

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Thank you for proving my point.
We have to remember that if a Segway-HT-like vehicle was to be made for military use, it is not driven by a blind guy. There will probably be some training course for the soldiers to attend to learn how to ride the Segway-AV(attack vehicle) :D Especially in rough terrain,

I am sure if there are limitations on the military model, it would most likely be driven in a more careful way. I am sure the soldier would not try to run over an object bigger than it can handle.

And besides, like all military vehicle out there now, they all have their limitations. I am sure those issues will be brought up before they even design the thing. So to sit and wonder how a Segway-HT could possible handle it self on the battle field seems pretty useless.

So,
ftropea writes...
quote:a military version of the Segway would have different performance charactersitics than an industrial version? Perhaps a bit speedier... and less "pedestrian" and "bump" friendly?
That sounds about right. I think weskifm's original post in this forum was meant to be in more general terms.

Your absolutely right about a different version of the Segway having to be built.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the public model of the Segway-HT handling the terrain. To make my point again, it will be soley up to the driver. Same as you drive a car(which drives at mostly higher speeds), you have to make choices when you drive.


in conclusion,
JohnM, yes. Things do have their limitations. For you making the point about how dangerous the streets are (pot holes, rocks, etc), the Segway-HT is a perfect fit for the sidewalk.

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by Blinky

JohnM writes,,
quote:Ground Clearance

Abrams Tank - 15 inches
Humvee - 16 inches
Bradley AFV - 18 inches
Segway - 4(?)inches

Size matters.
Thanks for helping me make my point Frank.
What about when a dirt or speed bike hits one JohnM, just curious?

Bike: -1? ;)


Curiosity is good. It shows that you're willing to learn.
A bike can 'bunny hop' over rocks.
http://members.tripod.com/~trashzen/bunny.html
Check out the video. Now try that move on a Segway.

-1? No
Ground Clearance (distance from the ground to the underside of a vehicle's chassis)
Mountain Bike - 11+ inches [:o]

You guys should get out more.

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by Blinky
For you making the point about how dangerous the streets are (pot holes, rocks, etc), the Segway-HT is a perfect fit for the sidewalk.


Thanks for pointing out that all our future wars should be fought on sidewalks.

[ftropea]

JohnM, you're clearly a smart guy and I respect you and your experience as a cyclist.

However, can you at least imagine that a military (combat ready) version of the Segway wouldn't have the same specs as the industrial/consumer versions? I'm getting the impression that you're imagining the I or E series be ridden around by our troops in Afghanistan. While those two models might work on bases where you would find paved surfaces and tiled floors... they clearly wouldn't work in rough terrain. That's simply because they weren't designed for that environment.. also for the many excellent reasons you've pointed out.

I appreciate your input and contributions to this forum, John. I think you've got an interesting perspective.

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea

[Jnadke]

quote:Originally posted by ftropea

JohnM, you're clearly a smart guy and I respect you and your experience as a cyclist.

However, can you at least imagine that a military (combat ready) version of the Segway wouldn't have the same specs as the industrial/consumer versions? I'm getting the impression that you're imagining the I or E series be ridden around by our troops in Afghanistan. While those two models might work on bases where you would find paved surfaces and tiled floors... they clearly wouldn't work in rough terrain. That's simply because they weren't designed for that environment.. also for the many excellent reasons you've pointed out.

I appreciate your input and contributions to this forum, John. I think you've got an interesting perspective.

That's simply because they weren't designed for that environment.. - It's not because the individual machines weren't designed for that environment... the concept the segway relies upon wasn't designed for that environment.

I think you overestimate the usefulness of a Segway. A Segway relies on the machine being on solid ground and having 100% traction. If the tires slip... and you are leaning forward... the machine isn't there to catch you. Face full of dirt. Also leaving you vulnerable to enemy fire.

Typical military machines don't have this vulnerablility. Pretty much all military vehicles have the ability to climb a 30 degree inlcine or more. The Segway would have a tough time in such an environment, for the reason above. I don't think the military would like that.

IMO... the only usefulness a segway would have is for peacekeeping/patrolling purposes. You have to be realistic with this. JohnM has some very good points, whether you may like it or not.


You could take out the leaning of a Segway and then it would work perfectly fine for military purposes. However, it wouldn't be a Segway anymore.

[Blinky]

I have to agree with Jnadke, what does the Segway-HT have to do with wars? That was not the point I was making, or anybody else in this thread. Its not like I'm saying soldiers are going to be fighting wars with dirt/speed bikes popping 11 inch wheelies.

[tomalak]

As I understand it, the idea of a military Segway is actually of a robot, not a personnel transport. Imagine a soldier running through the battlefield just carring just his weapon, and a R2-D2 like Segway following him a couple of meters behind with all his heavy gear.

[fredkap]

Tomalok,

Imagine 2,000 Seg robots leading a charge...if the enemy destroys 25% of them while the target is acquired then LLC gets notified of a large loss rather than a widow. I also would rather have a Seg check out a mine field than a fellow citizen. Chemical/biological threat - send in the robot. The robots can be controlled by a 100 pound lady from anywhere in the world. Thats the good side, unfortunately, the bad guys can also use a robot to do something terrible in a remote fashion. The reality is that every weapon that has been designed for good purposes always seems to be acquired by the bad guys sooner or later.

[gotseg]

quote:Originally posted by ftropea

We're not talking about running through walls John. Take a look at the Segways in this photo (the one labeled "Russian Segways" - particularly the one one front and center):

http://www.segwaychat.com/forum/photo_album_view.asp?cname=Curiosities&mid=5&cid=8#

Now that's starting to look like something geared for some "off road" action. Of course if you run into an obstacle like a wall - it doesn't matter what kind of off road vehicle you're in - you're not going to go through it. However, if we're talking about rough terrain.. with rocks and such (even those dreaded 6 inch high obstalces).. as long as your wheel is the first thing to make contact with the obstacle, you should be OK - pulling yourself up and over the obstacle.

Those are some serious tires, right? :)

BTW: About your recoiling point... Do you disagree that the Segway HT could be programmed so that it wouldn't recoil if it hit an obstacle like a rock? Aren't the control loops what define some of these performance characteristics? How about a "silver" key for soldiers?

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea


*kinda off subject* Frank, where did you find this early prototype photo? Know if they have more or in better quality?

gotseg?

[Zorba9]

ALRIGHT!! (LOL) I missed this thread earlier this fall when I was off working out of state. Don't you suppose some Bruno Wessels would solve many of the off-road military problems? Wish I had an exclusive on them! My next pair have already been ordered.

KOG

Zorba9.....

[Peter iNova]

Bottom of right wheel to middle of vehicle chassis to bottom of left wheel. It describes an angle and a triangular zone of obstacle avoidance. I would wager that a tank has LESS of a clearance triangle than the Seg.

-iNova

http://www.glidewalk.com

[Zorba9]

-iNova - correct, but its all a very moot point! Whatever is in the way of the tank - boulder, car, person on a M-167 Segway, its all going to be crushed flat or shoved out of the way by the behemoth as it crunchs by! (been there, done that, got the T-shirt! - Go ARMY! -Keep up the good work in Iraq !!!)

KOG

Zorba9.....

[Mr_Laurenzano]

Man you two sound like the comanders trying to take "Hamberger Hill".
While I was in Saudi back in 90-91 I rode in a hummer (Desile, Al frame) and a LAV. Thus my facination with gyros. The segway would be a great command vehical (HS) Gear in the rear per say. Its application with the dune buggy,? Great drop, Seg off, mission complete, leave it there after giving it a melt down and run or walk half the distance back.
Heck send an abassador out on one. If he doest come back its war.


peace is a oneway street, with no crossroads and no deadends

[GlideMaster]

Dag, I made this post before the Segway was even on sale to the public. I remember gliding in September 2002 and people looking at me like I was either crazy or a God. Someone has been doing a lot of searching.

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