Should we? Who should write about segway conduct?

[KSagal]

I read another thread on this forum about a segway book of gliding rules...

http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=20035

I like most of the suggestions that I have read so far, but isn't it a bit presumptuous for us to develop a rule book for what to do or not to do on a seg...

I believe there are legislators all around the world, some knowledgeable, most not, who are debating many of the same rules.

How would we deal with rules that are the law in one state, or country, that are not the law or even contradict laws in other lands?

I do like the comments that we should be happy and smile and that we should always be polite. That makes sense to me, but what works in London, or Los Angles, may get you a different reaction in NYC. Clearly what passes for friendly in Kansas may not be the same in another culture.

I know I am sounding like a wet blanket, but I really do feel offended when I read a document that proposes to teach me how to be an upstanding citizen. It has taken a couple decades (actually a couple more than a couple) to develop the sense of citizenship I have now...

All that having been said, I believe this is a noble cause. I may not agree with the scope and application, but I applaud the effort...

Now, Let the barbs fly! ;)

[Bob.Kerns]

I look at it differently, Karl. At 500 miles, I'm still trying to figure out the finer points of these rules, and I still remember trying to get any sense of them when I was just starting out.

Old-timers such as yourself aren't the target audience here. The audience is people new to gliding who'd benefit from all your experience.

I certainly would have welcomed such a manual starting out. And there's aspects on the list that aren't covered yet, which I'm still wondering about.

Like how much of a "kerb" you can go over. 1 cm, no problem. 10 cm, no go, me thinks. Between? At what speed?

[KSagal]

I look at it differently, Karl. At 500 miles, I'm still trying to figure out the finer points of these rules, and I still remember trying to get any sense of them when I was just starting out.

Old-timers such as yourself aren't the target audience here. The audience is people new to gliding who'd benefit from all your experience.

I certainly would have welcomed such a manual starting out. And there's aspects on the list that aren't covered yet, which I'm still wondering about.

Like how much of a "kerb" you can go over. 1 cm, no problem. 10 cm, no go, me thinks. Between? At what speed?


Again, I applaud the effort, and the data, but that is where I take exception as well...

In answer to your question, how high a curb?

If I say that I can take a 3 inch curb at 10 miles an hour, does that mean you can? If I say that a 2 inch curb should be the maximum that is attempted straight on, but that 3 inches can be climbed one wheel at a time, does that make sense to you from a manual?

I believe that sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous.

I have written some technical publications in my day, and the responsibility of clear expression of what is doable and not doable in an operation manual, or a publication that is clearly expected to be used as one if very high, and can be very tricky.

As soon as I print that a 2 inch curb is climbable, and a person hurts themselves doing it, there will be a problem.

If I print that an operator should never climb more than a inch curb, but you find that you can climb 2.5 inches with care, you will discount other tidbits in that manual as overly cautious, and may push another standard that will then hurt you...

For my thinking, it is a situation that is easily no win. A manufacturer takes that upon themselves by offering up a product for sale. For a private citizen or a collection of them to place themselves in that position I believe is dicey...

[CovRob]

It is not uncommon for any group to publish a set of guidlines. Especially when there is either no direction from official bodies or laws that apply. Such codes are voluntary but show the degree of responsibility that serious advocates wish to adopt and encourage others to share.

It's a starting point - think back to early adopters in the US. What ideas were floated? Why accuse well intentioned individuals of being presumptious?

[eJM]

Do you find this same sort of guide for other scooters, bicycles, skateboards, wheelchairs or anything else you ride, glide or slide on?

I agree almost completely with Karl on this. The one caveat - I don't think it's a noble cause at all. Too much feeling like control issues to me.

Jim

[gbrandwood]

Karl

The last thing I intended to do is offend people. I'm sorry I have offended you (and anyone else).

The reaction I was hoping for, if any, was for experienced gliders (like yourself) to perhaps offer up some worldly advice, contributing to what could become an excellent resource for the novice glider - or even a glider travelling from one place to another, and who might not know how things are best done in a particular area.

My focus was to help people in the UK glide in a civilised manner (a manner which would hopefully prevent them from being prosecuted in the UK). "Civilised" being the word, undefined in terms of Segway conduct, as used by the Jim Fitzpatrick, MP and Secretary of State at the Department for Transport in the UK.

I am not trying to teach my granny, or your granny for that matter, how to suck eggs! You can read it, or choose not to read it, and make of it as you will. If you see no value in it then so be it... ;)

Most of what is said is common sense - I make no bones about that. I have tried to include some valuable insights though. Some through first-hand experience, others from talking to people, seeing other people etc. Some improvements have already been suggested and will be incorporated.

In time, I'm sure it can include lots of specific details on technique. I remember, for example, the first time I came across a kerb/curb on my i167 in 2004. It was a challenge. I either got off the Segway or searched for a kerb cut out. Now I know how to safely approach and manage a kerb and feel that would be useful advice for someone else. Now, I've not written anything on climbing kerbs yet, and will do so carefully, using my experience and the good advice already being discussed on here. Perhaps there will be a beginners approach, a routine a approach, an advanced approach and a suicidal approach! We'll see.

It was fun to write what I have done so far and I'll continue to write it. At such a point when some official guidance is released, perhaps it will change if it is contrary. Time will tell.

[gbrandwood]

Jim, I'm not going to do the search, you asked the question, you can no doubt search equally well, but I am certain I have seen books, leaflets, talks at schools etc., on how to ride bicycles. Guides and courses on how to ride skateboards etc. I'm sure they offend lots of people. And perhaps they're not even noble - some people actually try to charge people for such ignoble work!

You have stumbled across my secret plan though [:O]. I am trying to control the actions of all gliders in the UK. I hope that by reading what I have written, and what will be written, they will be under my power to do my evil bidding!

I hope the light dose of sarcasm hasn't been lost in what I've said above. The difference of opinion displayed on this board is one of the reasons why it is such useful resource. :)

[pam]

Early on, suggested "rules of the road, conduct, and so on" were given freely by INC to the early adopters.

We were very aware of our position as the early ambassadors, although that "title" was annoying to some, as it implied a responsibility, and personally, sometimes those that cry the most about freedom do so because they don't want to take responsibility for their actions. I don't recall anyone being offended by INCs suggestions, and everyone chose to abide by them or not as they saw fit. We were all eager and looking for information about these great new inventions.

Now that the pt has been on the market for 5-6 years, I see less of that focus with INC, with the exception of helmets. They have always maintained their focus on helmet use.

Gareth is in a country that doesn't have the same acceptance of pts as the US (and we don't have it completely) - in one respect, he's still fighting battles that we've completed some years ago (with INCs help). If he feels that putting out this kind of "suggestion" book is helpful to acceptance to the pt in the UK, then I say, more power to him.

pam

[wwhopper]

Actually we are the ones that this kind of information should be coming from. This would be a perfect project that a Segway Enthusiast Group should produce. As it would be seen as an independant source of experts on the subject.

When attending government meetings on the Segway, the bureaucrats always ask me "where are the reports, tests, surveys, etc from the consultants that Segway has hired?" I tell them that Segway does not hire consultants for that purpose. They then respond to me, well they should, the others do it, the bicycle lobby, the car lobby, and others present such things as coming from an independant source, when in reality everyone knows that it comes from those directly involved in those industries, as they are the experts on the subject.

So for sure we as a group should be writing and publishing these kinds of things. Otherwise other groups will, and will put in there things like Segways should only be used on private property, and making statements that are contrary to what we know to be correct.

Take any course on political policy that talks about how the lobbists work, and it will tell you that they are the ones that write much of the policy that is then enacted into law. The lobbists are hired by the industries, the industries hire the lobbists to write the policy and then promote it to the elected officials who then write the laws based on the information they are provided by the experts.

So Garth, you are on the right track, keep up the good work.

[Bob.Kerns]

Again, I applaud the effort, and the data, but that is where I take exception as well...

In answer to your question, how high a curb?

If I say that I can take a 3 inch curb at 10 miles an hour, does that mean you can? If I say that a 2 inch curb should be the maximum that is attempted straight on, but that 3 inches can be climbed one wheel at a time, does that make sense to you from a manual?

I believe that sometimes a little knowledge can be dangerous.

I have written some technical publications in my day, and the responsibility of clear expression of what is doable and not doable in an operation manual, or a publication that is clearly expected to be used as one if very high, and can be very tricky.

As soon as I print that a 2 inch curb is climbable, and a person hurts themselves doing it, there will be a problem.

If I print that an operator should never climb more than a inch curb, but you find that you can climb 2.5 inches with care, you will discount other tidbits in that manual as overly cautious, and may push another standard that will then hurt you...

For my thinking, it is a situation that is easily no win. A manufacturer takes that upon themselves by offering up a product for sale. For a private citizen or a collection of them to place themselves in that position I believe is dicey...

I know what you're saying. But I think I started things out on the wrong footing with my example. I think there is a lot we CAN say about curbs, such as describing how a tiny curb can be insurmountable if you're right up against it at zero, while being a hardly noticible bump at moderate speed. About keeping your legs bent. And about being cautious.

Or we can characterize the behavior at different velocities and heights -- for example, how much velocity is enough for the kinetic energy to carry it over the curb.

[coaster]

You have stumbled across my secret plan though [:O]. I am trying to control the actions of all gliders in the UK. I hope that by reading what I have written, and what will be written, they will be under my power to do my evil bidding!


:eek: I obey, I obey


As an owner of around 2 months I welcome any help I can get.
With Segways being rare in the UK and still illegal, there are not any official places to get any help.

Phil

[NotQuiteCode3]

I've had my Segway for three months. So far, it's the only one I've seen in my area.

When I first began to glide I was desparate for information from other gliders. I was relieved to find this forum. Others offered me good advice, such as knees bent, stuff to carry in the handlebar bag, and about my gliding habits being set in the first two weeks of use.

I learned alot about courtesy, yielding to all pedestrians and wheelchairs. I like my role as an ambassador.

Keep on writing your guide! Others will be very grateful that it exists! I would also like to add that your local gendarme may be more inclined to respect the Segway when they see that the guidelines set by the users themselves is intelligent and respectful of the citizenry as well as the law.

By the way, you don't need to tell a Segway user to smile. They already are.

Lynn

[Bob.Kerns]

By the way, you don't need to tell a Segway user to smile. They already are.


And usually we can get the people we pass to smile! (If they aren't already the moment the see us. Segway! Segway!)

[JohnM]

" Who should write about segway conduct? "

SEG America?


Welcome to the Segway Enthusiasts Group - America, the official national organization for enthusiasts and owners of the Segway® Human Transporter (HT)!We are an independent, national organization that can help bring together Segway HT owners and enthusiasts across the country as we share our interest in the Segway HT. SEG America is run by its members for its members. Our primary goal is to act as a tool to enable Segway enthusiasts to share information and experiences with each other and to move forward the concept of the Segway HT as new mode of transportation.


Somebody dropped the ball.

[Bob.Kerns]

I wasn't around for the history, and have no opinion whatsoever about the events and personalities involved. (And I know very, very little of the history).

However, 36 years of participating in (and occasionally moderating) online discussions tells me that usually it's better for the long-term health of the community to let past differences remain in the past.

I'm not singling anyone out here. And we don't need a meta-discussion about it. I'm just making a suggestion to consider the future when you post reminders about the past.

This seems a very open, friendly, welcoming community, and I'd hate to see that change.

Thank you.

[jryan]

However, 36 years of participating in (and occasionally moderating) online discussions tells me that usually it's better for the long-term health of the community to let past differences remain in the past.



Wait a second, online discussions have not even been around for 36 years! Clarification would be appreciated!

[Five-Flags]

Wait a second, online discussions have not even been around for 36 years! Clarification would be appreciated!

Just because you haven't been around that long, don't assume that everything started after your birth. :):)

Online discussions were around before the World Wide Web. For many years, Online Bulletin Board Systems, dial-up systems that were running on Apple ][s, Altairs, MOSTeks, Imsais and many others were the best communications between computer 'geeks'. Programs such as RBBS, Fidonet, GBBS and others were the basis for thousands of bulletin boards, usually each having their own culture or "flavor". Preceding even those were ARPAnet (Advanced Research Projects Agency network), DARPAnet (Defense ...) in the mid-to-late '60s and other early networks such as Telenet and Tymnet.

I'll bet there's a few others out there that remember 300-baud connections...

I find nothing to doubt about Bob's statement.

Like they say.... "Ya hadda be there!!" :D:D:D:D

[jryan]

Just because you haven't been around that long, don't assume that everything started after your birth. :):)

Online discussions were around before the World Wide Web. For many years, Online Bulletin Board Systems, dial-up systems that were running on Apple ][s, Altairs, MOSTeks, Imsais and many others were the best communications between computer 'geeks'. Programs such as RBBS, Fidonet, GBBS and others were the basis for thousands of bulletin boards, usually each having their own culture or "flavor". Preceding even those were ARPAnet (Advanced Research Projects Agency network), DARPAnet (Defense ...) in the mid-to-late '60s and other early networks such as Telenet and Tymnet.

I'll bet there's a few others out there that remember 300-baud connections...

I find nothing to doubt about Bob's statement.

Like they say.... "Ya hadda be there!!" :D:D:D:D

I guess it all comes down to your definition of an online discussion. To me, it doesn't start until the world wide web, but that is just my personal definition. But comparing pre www online discussions to the current segwaychat seems to me like comparing apples to oranges. But once again, I guess it comes down to personal preferences of the term!

[Poetology]

I believe in rules when rules are neccessary, but when it comes to a segway I believe in the rules of engagement- engage a situation as it arises. The only pedestrian rules I know of are related to jaywalking-- any ******* can walk up real close to a person, walk circles around a person-- should anyone do it?-- of course not but I don't think there should be a rule saying you can't walk circles around pedestrians or walk backwards. The complex simplicity of this machine we ride gives us an implied knowledge or best guess on how to behave on it. I don't need a book.

If you need discipline I'm sure some angry pedestrian will tell you what the ramifications of breaking their unwritten pedestrian rule is.

[Gihgehls]

I guess it all comes down to your definition of an online discussion. To me, it doesn't start until the world wide web, but that is just my personal definition. But comparing pre www online discussions to the current segwaychat seems to me like comparing apples to oranges. But once again, I guess it comes down to personal preferences of the term!

Well, your definition is pretty limited. There is alot more to the internet than just the web. It has nothing to do with preferences, only actual definitions. And it is a much closer comparison than you might think. Forums aren't that much different than BBSes or mailling lists.

[Five-Flags]

I guess it all comes down to your definition of an online discussion. To me, it doesn't start until the world wide web, but that is just my personal definition. But comparing pre www online discussions to the current segwaychat seems to me like comparing apples to oranges. But once again, I guess it comes down to personal preferences of the term!

Let's see...

Thinking back to the old BBS days, I would sit down at my computer, launch a program such as Procomm (text-based communications very similar to Hyperterminal), and connect to a dial-up BBS.

After connecting to the BBS, I'd enter my username and a password, which would allow me access to certain areas of the bulletin board, and exclude me from others.

As I browsed through the areas that I was permitted to access, I would see the messages from other users who had preceded me. I might even decide to write a response to one or more of them and leave those messages on the system for others to peruse.

Depending on the rights assigned to me by the moderator of the BBS, I might visit the files section and download some program, or information, or a picture that interested me. If I had sufficient standing, I would be allowed to upload files for others to download, although they might be held until they were checked for errors or malicious code.

Finally, before I logged off, I might check my private mailbox, to see if some other user had left me a message that wasn't appropriate to publish for all to see.

Thinking back, I can see how entirely different that was as compared to say... logging onto the SegwayChat. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[wwhopper]

It is about Segways and not about when and where the internet began!

So I can get yelled at.......
I remember back in the 1960's when we would visit the home of a very wacky friend from my mother's work who handled the "computer" for a large international medical research company. And she had this odd thing that the telephone reciever (this was in the days of dial phones - though they were in color) would fit into and there was a keyboard and an odd printer, and she would show me how it worked and communicate with people. Then I remember clearly in 1966 another friend drove to the house, and can you belive this, called our home phone from her car. Right there mounted on the hump was this large box with a phone built into it. Now that was so cool!

Then in the late 1970's everyone was all excited about this new thing called the personal computer and that one day everyone would have them in their homes.

Funny how it happens, there really was high technology before the 1980's

Then in the early 2000's..... this odd self balancing thing on wheels came on the scene.

Keep on track about that guys!!!

[Bob.Kerns]

Young whippersnappers think the internet is a new toy. Even *I* am a johnny-come-lately.

In 1938 or so, Vannevar Bush (professor at MIT) started exploring a set of ideas for how to organize and manage information in the modern world. Unfortunately, this work was interrupted by WWII, as he ran the Manhatten Project. But in the 1945, with the war winding down, he published his ideas in the July issue of the Atlantic Monthly magazine in an article entitled "As We May Think" (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/194507/bush).

This prescient article outlined a vision which inspired the Arpanet (JCR Licklider, Memorandum For Members and Affliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network (http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0366.html?printable=1), 1963), the mouse (Doug Englebart) and the World Wide Web (hypertext -- Ted Nelson (http://www.xanadu.net/), Berniers-Lee).

And you thought the Internet started in 1994 or so?

My first encounters with the Internet came in the fall of 1972, when I came to MIT as a freshman. It was called the ARPANet back then, and consisted of a very small number of timesharing systems at various universities -- notably MIT (Project MAC and the AI lab) and the Stanford AI lab (SAIL).

(Later, I worked for Project MAC, initially as an undergraduate, then as sponsored research staff. But back to my story).

In 1972, you had email, file transfers, online chats, instant messages.

Yet we didn't have the mixtures of text and graphics -- almost no devices were capable of displaying graphics. A few green-and-white displays attached to some large timesharing systems could display simple graphics. And the XGP (I think it was still in Xerox's labs at that date) could print graphics and typeset text, and there were only a handful in the world. Later, I wrote some remote-printing software to support printing over the network -- something we take for granted now, but we had to write for ourselves.

Still, the basic modes of communication were pretty well established by the time I came along in 1972, and haven't changed all that much. The first LARGE mailing list (and hence, large online discussion community), was SF-LOVERS, back in 1979. This was the first one to become large enough to require explicit moderation, distribution as a digest (to avoid swamping mailers), etc.

If you know what to search for, you can find email I sent in the late '70's on the World Wide Web today.

My first foray into mailing list moderation can be found here (1981) (http://www.quux.org:70/Archives/usenet-a-news/FA.energy/81.05.28_ucbvax.1443_fa.energy.txt).

[gbrandwood]

I believe in rules when rules are neccessary, but when it comes to a segway I believe in the rules of engagement- engage a situation as it arises. The only pedestrian rules I know of are related to jaywalking-- any ******* can walk up real close to a person, walk circles around a person-- should anyone do it?-- of course not but I don't think there should be a rule saying you can't walk circles around pedestrians or walk backwards. The complex simplicity of this machine we ride gives us an implied knowledge or best guess on how to behave on it. I don't need a book.

If you need discipline I'm sure some angry pedestrian will tell you what the ramifications of breaking their unwritten pedestrian rule is.I'll remove the section on walking in circles around people. ;)

Believe it or not, there are lots of "rules" for pedestrians, as there are for bicycles and motor vehicles in the UK. We have a "Highway Code (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/index.htm)" document which everyone one, driver or not, is encouraged to read. It covers horse riders too :). Does the US have a similar code?

If you don't need a book then that's fine. But it is almost universal, in my mind, that rules and guidelines are created, pretty much everywhere in world. And there are always those who choose not to observe them. The Segway Code is a bunch of recommendations - like those presented to a Board in a report. The Board (i.e. you), can consider them and accept or reject them.

If at any time official guidelines and laws come into affect in these areas, then failing to observe them would have consequences. But then again, gilding on the pavement (or even in the road) in the UK, is not permitted in law at the moment, so there are potential consequences for doing that :rolleyes:. This is also pointed out in the Segway Code. Did you know that lots of people didn't even release they are not legal? Info like this does have its uses to allow people to make their own decisions, and live with the consequences of their decisions. Personally, I like to make my decisions with as much relevant information as possible.

[Bob.Kerns]

Personally, I like to make my decisions with as much relevant information as possible.

Information just gets in the way of doing what you want. Who cares about consequences -- maybe you can get away with saying "I didn't know!"?

[Twyfer]

Believe it or not, there are lots of "rules" for pedestrians, as there are for bicycles and motor vehicles in the UK. We have a Highway Code document which everyone one, driver or not, is encouraged to read. It covers horse riders too :). Does the US have a similar code?


In North America each state and province issues its own driver's licences, vehicle registration plates, and driver's code. They are coordinated to a certain extent, but there is no single national document.

So it's a very relaxed system compared with the UK. That possibly explains some of the less than positive comments that you've been getting. North American drivers tend to read their driver's code only when they need to take their test, and don't refer to it much afterwards - unfortunately.

So keep up the good work, a Segway code makes a lot of sense in the UK situation. The different opinions you are encountering here are probably genuine cultural ones. Americans tend not to like British people telling them what to do since that unfortunate incident in 1776......:D

You'll notice though that the reverse is certainly not true....... :D :D
________________
Dwight

[quade]

Americans tend not to like British people telling them what to do since that unfortunate incident in 1776......:D

That said, even people in that time based quite a few of our "rules" on theirs.

The US Constitution wouldn't be what it is today without the Magna Carta (1215) and the English Bill of Rights (1689). It was the fact that the English Bill of Rights did not apply to the Colonies that basically caused the fracas in the first place.

So, England can serve as a pretty darn good example sometimes.

[jryan]

Americans tend not to like British people telling them what to do since that unfortunate incident in 1776......:D
________________
Dwight

And people in pretty much any other country tend not to like Americans telling them what to do after the unfortunate incidents of 2000 and 2004!

[Five-Flags]

... after the unfortunate incidents of 2000 and 2004!

Ah, Jeremy, Jeremy. Somehow I don't see that your party losing a couple of elections quite reaches the magnitude of a revolution and the forming of a new country. But we understand...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[jryan]

Ah, Jeremy, Jeremy. Somehow I don't see that your party losing a couple of elections quite reaches the magnitude of a revolution and the forming of a new country. But we understand...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I guess we'll have to see with this election. It could be a revolution of votes and depending on what happens after, we could very well form a new country. In a different and lesser sense, it could very well happen!

[SegSailor]

We aren't halfway through the convention season yet and I'm already tired of politics. Do we have to go through it here too?!?! Back to the Internet! How about the hardware in the movie "War Games"!!! The main computer was the WHopper!!! :eek: