New owner in the East Bay

[seaslug]

Hello, folks!

Just bought a brand new i2 today. Been gliding around my little berg of Martinez, CA. Starting to feel comfortable enough to be dangerous, already. Haven't figured out descending steep hills just yet. I presume I need to slalom or tack down, depending on whether you're a skier or a sailor.

Looking forward to getting out into the wider Bay Area. Hoping that BART shows sense and allows access again.

Be seeing you!

[LibertySegway]

Take the hills slow and keep your eyes peeled for those nasty curbs and you will be fine.

Over confidence will get you tossed so watch out for that too.

Have fun exploring Martinez. Make sure to Seg every day. Its better than vitamins!



SacSeg.com

[BarryT]

Welcome aboard sealug!!! Experience is the best teacher on segways. I guess it really depends on your personality and physical ability as to how much you can do how fast. I have done some things I've regretted, and other things that I've been really amazed (on segways that is).

No doubt it's gonna be really fun!!!

[bentbiker]

I presume I need to slalom or tack down, depending on whether you're a skier or a sailor.
Not at all! You just have to TRUST that leaning back will keep it nice and slow. What you don't want is to build up too much initial speed and then try to stop quickly.

[seaslug]

Not at all! You just have to TRUST that leaning back will keep it nice and slow. What you don't want is to build up too much initial speed and then try to stop quickly.

Okay, thanks.

It just seemed, when I started down the steep decline, that I would practically have to drag my tuchus on the ground to get it to slow enough, but perhaps I simply leaned back too late to do enough good.

I'll try it again and report in from the hospital. HA! :D

[Bob.Kerns]

I'd suggest, as a learning exercise (having learned pretty recently myself):

Find a nice steep hill, but not so steep as to over-intimidate yourself.

Go half-way up.

Stop.

Turn SLOWLY around. Keeping the leansteer stick vertical, you should be able to turn in place.

Stop.

Stand there.

Notice: You don't have to lean back to stand there! Just stand up vertically.

Lean slightly forward and inch down the hill. Once you start moving a bit, just stand vertical -- and proceed at a nice stately inchworm pace.

The thing is, you don't control the Segway by pushing forward and pulling back. The initial tendency is to pull back on the stick, without really moving your weight. But if you move your weight, without pulling on the stick, you'll have the desired effect.

When you lean back, you're not telling it to RESIST THE HILL. You're telling it "slow down a bit". If you're leaning back, it's slowing down -- it has to, in order to stay under you. If you stand straight up, it's NOT going to start going faster and faster down that hill -- it can't; it'd leave you behind. If you're standing straight up, weight over the axles, it's going to keep going the same speed -- hill or no hill!

I mostly understood this from the beginning -- but after a while (a couple hundred miles or so), I realized I didn't really have it internalized.

Instead of working hard to slow down going down the hill -- just realize the Segway acts as if the hill wasn't there -- but it has to work REAL HARD to do it on steep hills, so take those slow. But as long as you're not overworking it, slow, you can stand on the platform, take it at a steady pace, and REMOVE YOUR HANDS FROM THE STICK. No, I'm not recommending DOING that -- I'm just pointing out that if you're at a constant speed down that hill, you're just standing on the platform, and that's what's controlling the Segway, not anything you're doing with the stick.

It's amazing, really. It's really more a matter of pushing with your feet than hauling on that stick. You speed up by sliding your feet back so you're leaning forward, and you stop by sliding them forward so it can push on you to slow you down. The stick is there to help you do that motion with your feet.

But you don't think about that, either. Pretty much, you just brace yourself for whatever you want it to do, and it does it, as if it read your mind. That's the beauty of it.

But hills confuse us, and make us think we have to work to avoid going faster and faster (or slower and slower, going the other way). It takes a bit to develop confidence in the Segways behavior on hills.

But confidence will come quicker if you consciously work on it. Start gently, repeat over and over, and gradually expand the range, and your brain will start to rewire itself slightly, and you'll train yourself to trust your Segway to be a Segway, not a bicycle or scooter or rollerblades or sled...

[bentbiker]

I'd suggest, as a learning exercise (having learned pretty recently myself):

Find a nice steep hill, but not so steep as to over-intimidate yourself.

Go half-way up.

Stop.

Turn SLOWLY around. Keeping the leansteer stick vertical, you should be able to turn in place.

Stop.

Stand there.

Notice: You don't have to lean back to stand there! Just stand up vertically.

This might work on a slight incline, but it is definitely dangerous on a steep hill.

To climb a hill, the platform must lean forward -- even facing uphill and standing still can take a significant lean, just to call for enough power to hold your place. The reverse is also true; to hold your position facing downhill, the platform must tilt considerably backwards -- to the extent that you probably need to hold the handlebar to keep from falling backward. Trying to change from that severe forward lean to a reverse lean, quickly enough, is quite a challenge. One of the worst falls I've witnessed was a rider who tried to turn around on a steep hill. I don't recommend it.

[seaslug]

Thank you both for your replies.

I did go out, today, and work at a couple rather steep hills. I took it very slow, and frankly did a good deal of leaning backward -- actually sticking my butt out a bit -- but mostly trying to think about using my heels (which I think was the most effective). Anyhoo, I just crawled down those hills. And I had no concern about suddenly picking up speed. I knew that I was in control, though it seemed a near thing on one decline, with the handlebars getting nearer and nearer my chest and me feeling like I was going to go over backward.

In any event, I succeeded. So, it's all just practice from here. Not bad for the third day of ownership, with close to 40 miles on her.

[Bob.Kerns]

This might work on a slight incline, but it is definitely dangerous on a steep hill.

To climb a hill, the platform must lean forward -- even facing uphill and standing still can take a significant lean, just to call for enough power to hold your place. The reverse is also true; to hold your position facing downhill, the platform must tilt considerably backwards -- to the extent that you probably need to hold the handlebar to keep from falling backward. Trying to change from that severe forward lean to a reverse lean, quickly enough, is quite a challenge. One of the worst falls I've witnessed was a rider who tried to turn around on a steep hill. I don't recommend it.

I did specify a non-intimidating hill!

And doing everything SLOWLY. I'm not sure why you say "quickly enough". You'd be nuts to turn quickly on a steep hill! Or do ANYTHING quickly on a steep hill.

And I don't know what happens at the extremes -- do you reach the limit of how steep a hill it can handle going up, down, or sideways first?

But you can certainly turn around on some pretty steep slopes, short of those limits.

But let's be very careful about terminology here. There's platform tilt, and then there's where your (you + handlebar)'s center of gravity lies.

It is physically impossible for the Segway + you to stand there unless your combined center of gravity is over the axle. And the handlebar doesn't weigh all that much, so we're talking primarily about YOUR center of gravity.

[Correction: over the point of contact of the tires on the ground, NOT the axle. And on a hill, that will be somewhat forward of the axle, contributing to the sense of "leaning forward".]

It matters where you put your feet, and where you put the weight on your feet. If your feet are forward, or your weight is on your toes, your center of gravity will have to be behind that, you'll be "leaning backward" and hanging onto the handlebar to avoid falling backwards.

Similarly, if your feet are back and weight is on the heels, behind the axles, you'll have to move your center of gravity forward, and you'll be "leaning forward".

But in the sense I'm using it, if your weight is over the axles, you're not leaning. And you don't need the handlebar if the support from your feet is also over the axles.

But the platform tilt interacts with all that, tending to shift where you place your weight on the feet. I'm not sure how much of by design, vs just being a side-effect of moving the handlebar forward and back to give you feedback on how much you can accelerate (and to limit speed).

Also, when the handlebar moves back or forward, it creates a perception of leaning forward or back that's a bit at odds with the reality. This is a good thing -- we expect to have to lean forward to move forward at a constant speed, and it pretty well meets our expectation, while in reality, you're balanced, not leaning. (Neglecting wind resistance).

And just because you CAN let go of the handlebar on a slope, and stand there (and I've done it) doesn't mean you really want to.

Also note, that if you actually lean forward (in my sense) on a steep hill, and you're at the limit of how much torque the Segway can put out (or at the limit of traction for the tires on the surface), then one of two things must happen, both bad:

1) The Segway will fail in its attempt to stay under you, and you'll rotate forward and face plant.

2) The tires will slip. Probably just one, and the Segway will turn suddenly, and toss you aside.

Anyway, there's definitely a difference between what we might call "perceived lean" -- you on your feet, and "total lean", you on your Segway. One of the cool things about the Segway is how nicely the perceived lean integrates with our expectations and makes us quickly comfortable with its behavior. While the total lean lets it do its physics thing and actually balance.

When you're zipping along right at the top speed on flat land, the stick comes back, and you're right against it, and it sure feels like you're leaning forward as far as you can go. What you're actually being told, is, don't lean forward! And if you try to actually lean forward, it'll accelerate, rotate the platform and stick back more, and force you to lean back, allowing it to decelerate back down, so it can stay within it limits.

It plays the same kind of mind games with us on the hills. Very slick bit of engineering, that keeps us safe. If it's telling you, I don't want to go that fast, listen. If you feel like you have to really lean hard to stand still -- be gentle.

(And yes, when I'm not thinking about bumps in the pavement, tree limbs, dogs, and erratic pedestrians on cell phones, I'm observing the Segway and trying to understand its control system).

I don't claim to have completely figured this thing out! There may be errors in my description above, and I avoid pushing it to its limits. (Except for some limited, careful experiments when I first got my hands on one, which is why I know what happens when it loses traction).

More experienced riders should feel free to jump in and pick it apart. I HATE being wrong, so the sooner someone points out my errors, the happier I am..

[cmonkey]

When you are going up a hill, depending on steepness, if you move your feet forward and inch or three, you may find it easier to do.

Same for going down a steep hill, move your feet back (heels to the edge or maybe even over the edge) and it's easy going.

As for really steep hills:

http://www.segwaytoday.net/SegwayToday/Endurance_Series.html

[bentbiker]

I did specify a non-intimidating hill!
Just because a quite steep hill doesn't intimidate me, doesn't mean I can turn on it. I'm guessing that what you now consider steep you will consider flat/level after a bit more experience.

And doing everything SLOWLY. I'm not sure why you say "quickly enough". You'd be nuts to turn quickly on a steep hill! Or do ANYTHING quickly on a steep hill.
I didn't talk about turning quickly. You are totally missing my point that on a steep hill, the platform is no longer level with respect to gravity -- it needs to be tilted considerably just to stand still. If you try to turn around on a steep hill, even at zero speed, you must transition from a severe forward lean to a severe backward lean -- AND it must be done quickly because the machine will force it upon you. The steepness will cause the unit to quickly speed up and just as quickly rotate backward to slow you down. It is the transition that I said must be done quickly.

But you can certainly turn around on some pretty steep slopes, short of those limits.As I said above, I believe your perception of what is "steep" will change dramatically. Don't even try changing from uphill to downhill on a steep grade.

But let's be very careful about terminology here. There's platform tilt, and then there's where your (you + handlebar)'s center of gravity lies.

It is physically impossible for the Segway + you to stand there unless your combined center of gravity is over the axle. And the handlebar doesn't weigh all that much, so we're talking primarily about YOUR center of gravity.

[Correction: over the point of contact of the tires on the ground, NOT the axle. And on a hill, that will be somewhat forward of the axle, contributing to the sense of "leaning forward".]
I believe your static load analysis is correct, but on a steep hill, you will feel like your nose is ready to touch the pavement (a slight exaggeration) as the platform tilts to call for more torque, moving the contact patch well forward of the axle.

. . . And you don't need the handlebar if the support from your feet is also over the axles.
Again, I believe you are ignoring the SEVERE platform tilt that occurs on a steep hill -- you cannot stand on it without hanging onto the handlebar (unless you are a mime capable of "leaning into the wind")

Also, when the handlebar moves back or forward, it creates a perception of leaning forward or back that's a bit at odds with the reality. This is a good thing -- we expect to have to lean forward to move forward at a constant speed, and it pretty well meets our expectation, while in reality, you're balanced, not leaning. (Neglecting wind resistance).
This is close to being true on level ground, but not on a hill. The greater the rise, the more platform tilt that is necessary to maintain a steady state situation at any speed.

And just because you CAN let go of the handlebar on a slope, and stand there (and I've done it) doesn't mean you really want to.
I doubt you can do this on a steep downhill.

Also note, that if you actually lean forward (in my sense) on a steep hill, and you're at the limit of how much torque the Segway can put out (or at the limit of traction for the tires on the surface), then one of two things must happen, both bad:

1) The Segway will fail in its attempt to stay under you, and you'll rotate forward and face plant.

2) The tires will slip. Probably just one, and the Segway will turn suddenly, and toss you aside.
I don't believe you can stall the motors if you are within the weight specs of the machine.

I don't claim to have completely figured this thing out! . . . More experienced riders should feel free to jump in and pick it apart. I HATE being wrong, so the sooner someone points out my errors, the happier I am..
I've taken you at your word here. I hope none of my comments are taken as being argumentative or condescending -- my perceptions have changed over time, and I'm sure yours will as well. I just don't want to see anybody take a crash like the one I witnessed by a fellow rider.

As for cmonkey's recommendation of moving feet forward to help shift your center of gravity forward, I think this must vary according to your body shape/height. As others have suggested, I find it easier to increase the forward platform tilt if I move my feet backward and then lean forward on the handlebars -- the bars prevent sufficient forward moment unless I have some space between me and the bars. I suspect a taller person with more upper body weight, might find things quite different. Find out what works for you.

[Bob.Kerns]

As for cmonkey's recommendation of moving feet forward to help shift your center of gravity forward, I think this must vary according to your body shape/height. As others have suggested, I find it easier to increase the forward platform tilt if I move my feet backward and then lean forward on the handlebars -- the bars prevent sufficient forward moment unless I have some space between me and the bars. I suspect a taller person with more upper body weight, might find things quite different. Find out what works for you.

I am very definitely a taller person with upper-body weight! Quite possibly the highest center of gravity here, especially if you take the backpack I nearly always have on into consideration. I didn't think to consider how the experience would vary based on this.

The main thrust of my suggestion is to carefully experiment and practice. The main thing to take from your response (if I may so tersely summarize) is to not do this with extreme enough circumstances you get in trouble. With which, I concur.

I've taken you at your word here. I hope none of my comments are taken as being argumentative or condescending -- my perceptions have changed over time, and I'm sure yours will as well. I just don't want to see anybody take a crash like the one I witnessed by a fellow rider.

Absolutely. You could even be argumentative AND condescending, and I'd survive, but you're being neither.

I'm jumping in sharing my experiences with others, because I know how much *I* would appreciate more experienced users sharing theirs with ME!

You've already forced me to be more precise. Maybe you can help me replace "non-intimidating" with something better? Maybe by how fast the Segway is willing to go up without the little warning icon and "I don't like this" face?

I haven't turned around on hills where it wanted me to go 4 MPH, but I have where it wanted me to go 6 MPH. I haven't found a paved street where it wanted me to go any slower than 4 MPH -- and I'm not sure I want to, in any vehicle. And CERTAINLY not on foot!

I don't think my idea of "steep" is much affected by my Segway experience (Either by the fact I'm on a Segway, or how much experience I have obtained to date). Probably some, but I think I refer more to what it would be like to drive or walk. The 6 MPH hills I'd definitely have serious trouble walking or standing, and they'd have given SOME cars I've owned some trouble.

The 4 MPH stretches (fortunately, very short) seem to me as steep as any I've driven. Which perception may be distorted by being on a Segway, of course.

(My legs don't work well, and standing or walking on even moderate slopes is problematic for me -- I'm less intimidated by slopes on a Segway than I am off them).

Or maybe weight differences make this an unreliable indicator?

Also, about your observed crash -- you did indicate "too quickly"? Yet it seems you're saying what he attempted is impossible (or too dangerous to attempt -- I prefer to consider that "personally impossible" as well). Would you infer that at that degree of steepness, it's equally impossible to turn cross-wise to the hill? So your only alternative to continuing up or down the hill is to dismount without turning crosswise? I might be able to manage that trick going down, but not up. And going down there'd be a major risk of my losing balance, even if the Segway stays well-behaved as I dismount. I need the Segway to substitute for my cane.

I wonder if your crashed rider simply turned too quickly, perhaps panicking at the steepness? Was he at a dead stop before attempting to turn around?

(I'd always rather learn from other people's crashes, than take the do-it-yourself approach! I've watched every video crash I've been able to find on YouTube. Even so, I did find myself about to do a George W. Bush a couple days ago -- idiot, did you look for the green light? Embarrassing to get even a half-step down that path...)

I didn't talk about turning quickly. You are totally missing my point that on a steep hill, the platform is no longer level with respect to gravity -- it needs to be tilted considerably just to stand still. If you try to turn around on a steep hill, even at zero speed, you must transition from a severe forward lean to a severe backward lean -- AND it must be done quickly because the machine will force it upon you. The steepness will cause the unit to quickly speed up and just as quickly rotate backward to slow you down. It is the transition that I said must be done quickly.

There may be confusion here between speed of rotation vs speed of forward motion?

I would take zero speed as a prerequisite on anything steep -- and a very slow rotation-in-place to give yourself and the machine time to respond to each other, as the only safe thing to do. Under these circumstances, I haven't found any rapid motion of the platform. Serious amounts of leanstick correction required, of course!

(Say, this couldn't be a difference between i2/x2 and earlier models, could it?)

Anyway, before responding more on that, I want to gather more field data. I'd hoped to do that this AM, but plans changed (transporting 7-year-old daughter), requiring a change of vehicle (Gen 1 Prius).

[seaslug]

I seem to have started quite the conversation, here, and it's much appreciated. Fascinating reading.

[bentbiker]

You've already forced me to be more precise. Maybe you can help me replace "non-intimidating" with something better? Maybe by how fast the Segway is willing to go up without the little warning icon and "I don't like this" face?

I haven't turned around on hills where it wanted me to go 4 MPH, but I have where it wanted me to go 6 MPH. I haven't found a paved street where it wanted me to go any slower than 4 MPH -- and I'm not sure I want to, in any vehicle. And CERTAINLY not on foot!

I don't think my idea of "steep" is much affected by my Segway experience (Either by the fact I'm on a Segway, or how much experience I have obtained to date). Probably some, but I think I refer more to what it would be like to drive or walk. The 6 MPH hills I'd definitely have serious trouble walking or standing, and they'd have given SOME cars I've owned some trouble.

The 4 MPH stretches (fortunately, very short) seem to me as steep as any I've driven. Which perception may be distorted by being on a Segway, of course.

Also, about your observed crash -- you did indicate "too quickly"? Yet it seems you're saying what he attempted is impossible (or too dangerous to attempt -- I prefer to consider that "personally impossible" as well). Would you infer that at that degree of steepness, it's equally impossible to turn cross-wise to the hill? So your only alternative to continuing up or down the hill is to dismount without turning crosswise? I might be able to manage that trick going down, but not up. And going down there'd be a major risk of my losing balance, even if the Segway stays well-behaved as I dismount. I need the Segway to substitute for my cane.

I wonder if your crashed rider simply turned too quickly, perhaps panicking at the steepness? Was he at a dead stop before attempting to turn around?

There may be confusion here between speed of rotation vs speed of forward motion?

I would take zero speed as a prerequisite on anything steep -- and a very slow rotation-in-place to give yourself and the machine time to respond to each other, as the only safe thing to do. Under these circumstances, I haven't found any rapid motion of the platform. Serious amounts of leanstick correction required, of course!

(Say, this couldn't be a difference between i2/x2 and earlier models, could it?)
I think after reading this that we are probably talking apples and oranges. Most paved streets have grades of 10% or less and the world's steepest are in the 20% range. I'm talking about slopes that are probably 15-20% -- much steeper than anything I've ever ridden in a car. And no, I don't think anybody could stand with feet flat on the platform cross-hill at a standstill on the hill I'm thinking of. I don't think the speed maximums that you refer to are independent of the rider; I believe they relate to current draw and therefore body weight. Yes, my fallen friend probably hit the slope at 4-6 mph and the considerable forward lean necessary to keep any kind of forward motion freaked them out and they panicked and tried to go back down. The rest of us went up at 1-2 mph, and I think that finishing the climb or descent on anything this steep is the only sane way to go.

[Bob.Kerns]

I think after reading this that we are probably talking apples and oranges. Most paved streets have grades of 10% or less and the world's steepest are in the 20% range. I'm talking about slopes that are probably 15-20% -- much steeper than anything I've ever ridden in a car. And no, I don't think anybody could stand with feet flat on the platform cross-hill at a standstill on the hill I'm thinking of. I don't think the speed maximums that you refer to are independent of the rider; I believe they relate to current draw and therefore body weight. Yes, my fallen friend probably hit the slope at 4-6 mph and the considerable forward lean necessary to keep any kind of forward motion freaked them out and they panicked and tried to go back down. The rest of us went up at 1-2 mph, and I think that finishing the climb or descent on anything this steep is the only sane way to go.

That makes sense -- but I still want to go fact-check (in the range I'm talking about) to verify what I've said against the issues you raise. (And thank you for doing so). More, better observation...learn some more...

I don't think I want to be ON any hill that I can't turn and go back down, because, well, I'm just not that adventurous! My experience with losing traction is it can happen rather suddenly.

Besides, I hate going that slow..