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View Full Version : A solution in search of a problem...




n/a
09-01-2002, 01:05 PM
The above phrase has been used as a criticizm of Segway. Guess what people, I agree with this statement with regards to Segway. Nobody approached Kamen and said to him "we need a vehicle that can effectivize walking, mingle with pedestrians and can be used indoors and out. While working on the ibot, he realized that he could use the self-balancing component to build a new type of vehicle. He also discovered that the self-balancing feature gave a very cool feeling to the rider. He explored the idea furthur and realized that there could be a lot of applications for such a technology. The more he explored the more potential advantages he saw.

Arent most serendipideous discoveries made in the same way? Somebody accidentally does something that behaves in an anomolous manner. The curious and clever scientist/inventor explores the anomaly and eventually discovers that it has some potential practical applications. Isnt that what true discovery is all about? Isnt it the true sign of a creative mind at work?




ftropea
09-02-2002, 12:40 AM
As I've indicated on other occasions, it does seem to me (and we'll know better once Kemper's book hits the shelves) that Dean Kamen didn't set out to invent to Segway-HT. He was working on the Ibot and developed prototypes to test balancing mode, enabled by dynamic stabilizations. The simplest prototype was to reduce the Ibot to a 2-wheeled test-bed called Ginger. At the time, it might not have occured to Kamen that he just invented a viable solution to many of the world's ills. However, he didn't shelve the prototype either. He did return to finish and perfect the Ibot. Then he probably turned back to Ginger... and then the rest is history.

However, at some point he did have to work out what problems this invention solved. I never heard that Kamen invented the Segway-HT to solve any particular problem. Again, can't wait for the book... :)

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea
----------------------------------
Ginger : Robotics :: PC : Computers

dupa
09-02-2002, 08:17 AM
I do not agree with the thread title. I would say..Segway, helping solve problems like congestion, pollution, and dependence on foreign oil. Segway, an American solution to international problems.

dupa
09-02-2002, 08:18 AM
And hell, how rude of me! Nice site Frank!! Congrats!

ziggystardust_
09-02-2002, 09:57 AM
quote:Originally posted by dupa

I do not agree with the thread title. I would say..Segway, helping solve problems like congestion, pollution, and dependence on foreign oil. Segway, an American solution to international problems.



The big question is: Is DS at that price point in relation to alternatives enough to accomplish the above?

n/a
09-02-2002, 10:06 AM
quote:The big question is: Is DS at that price point in relation to alternatives enough to accomplish the above?

Most likely not at this point, not for most people. For some niche markets and early adapters yes. Eventually the price will hopefully come down sufficiently to make Segway affordable and desireable for the masses. Kamen & co. are still working hard to adapt Segway to various uses, still searching for new problems the solution might solve.

ftropea
09-02-2002, 01:45 PM
To me, the forumla is pretty simple. Keep selling the Segway-HT to the postal service and other places where it'll be visible to the public - see on streets and inside building - and then eventually the cost will come down, people will be well acquainted with the product and it'll sell really well. Ever been to Las Vegas? They should let you rent them there... it is a PERFECT solution to traveling up and down the strip.

In fact, ever been to Freemont street? It's downtown Las Vegas... a group of little casinos wanted to draw people from up the strip. They had nothing to compete with the likes of exploding volcanos and pirate ships in battle, so they pooled their money together and built this fantastic awning over freemont street. The underside of the awning is lines with thousands of lights... it's a huge TV set.. I mean HUGE. Everynigh they run free lightshows... it's called the Freemont Street Experience. That draws people down there and it's done wonder for their business...

If the casinos would pool their money together and invest in Segways, they could increase their revenues by making it easier for people to get around Las Vegas and throughout the various casinos. The more casinos people visit - the more they gamble. The less tired they are, the more time they spend gambling. The more people can feel they can explore - the more money you make in gambling revenue and services. Plus, the rental cost alone would help pay for these Segways in no time - say they rent them at $9 - $10 a day? THat's less than what cab fare or car rentals would cost... and they would pay for themselves in less than 2 years assuming the Segways cost around $5,000 or so. The expected operating life of a Segway is more than 5 years anyway, but they could even sell those used units and purchase new Segways every 5 years or so...

Potential - potential!

Regards,

Frank A. Tropea
----------------------------------
Ginger : Robotics :: PC : Computers

charmed
09-02-2002, 01:53 PM
Segway+Vegas=a beautiful thing.

However....the incidence of drunkeness and questionable judgement among the visitors is unmatched anywhere in the world.

Still, the distances between casinos are perfect for the Segway's speed and range, and it would seem a relatively simple thing for various casinos to set aside space for Segway service and parking facilities. All it would take are a few of the big ones participating, and they would automatically have a huge drawing card for many, many visitors.

Seg-wager
09-02-2002, 03:53 PM
quote:Ever been to Las Vegas? They should let you rent them there... it is a PERFECT solution to traveling up and down the strip

I still think they'd make an excellent comp for the hotels, since some of the larger complexes seem to cover such vast areas.

charmed
09-02-2002, 03:59 PM
Sounds like a likely market, to me.

Antagony
09-06-2002, 08:04 PM
A problem with all new disruptive technologies is that people have to be convinced to make the switch. Not only do they have to invest in the new technology, they have to change a lot of old habits that die hard. Segway LLC will not only have to convince us to put out the cash, they will have to convince us to keep our cars parked, sell our scooters, etc. etc. New solutions also inevitably lead to new problems. I wonder what they might be apart from the safety concerns that there has been so much debate about. Sorry if this is somewhat off topic.

yop
09-09-2002, 08:41 AM
"A problem with all new disruptive technologies...."
I think Segway is about as non-disruptive as a novel transportation device can possibly be. It doesn't require any new infrastructure: the sidewalks and the power grid are already there. And there is very little negative impact when someone decides to use a Segway: takes very little space, doesn't pollute, safe for the rider and those around him (supposedly). Unlike other transportation "solutions", nobody has to give up a lot. With other transportation solutions, somebody always loses, through higher taxes, reduced spending on other programs, greatly increased risk to pedestrians, etc. Some people and businesses stand to gain a lot from the Segway, and they are more than willing to pay for those gains; nobody stands to lose much of anything (again, assuming it's as safe as advertised).

"New solutions also inevitably lead to new problems."
One problem that I can see that I haven't seen much discussion about is the problem of stairs. The ability to climb stairs is a big difference between the Segway and a pedestrian. Without that ability, the Segway won't be able to integrate perfectly with pedestrians. Even with the "follow mode", the inability to climb stairs and curbs is going to greatly reduce the utility of the Segway. (How much? Any thoughts?) Maybe there's already a solution in the works. The patent shows a version of the Segway with three wheels on each side that looks like it could climb stairs. However, that raises other problems. One of the safety features of a flight of stairs is the handrail. Would a handrail work for someone on a stair-climbing Segway? Their hands are already occupied. And then there's the problem of what happens if one wheel were to slip off the edge.

Casey
09-09-2002, 08:53 AM
quote:It doesn't require any new infrastructure: the sidewalks and the power grid are already there. And there is very little negative impact when someone decides to use a Segway: takes very little space, doesn't pollute, safe for the rider and those around him (supposedly).

I think that pretty well sums up Kamen's vision and goals for Segway. Although if they proliferate and number into the millions there would obviously have to be some expansion of infrastructure to accomodate them. Unless they simply replaced other vehicles and took over the roadways freed up by a decrease in automobile usage.

Frank

n/a
09-09-2002, 01:18 PM
quote:Would a handrail work for someone on a stair-climbing Segway? Their hands are already occupied. And then there's the problem of what happens if one wheel were to slip off the edge.

I imagine the stair-climbing Segway would work on the same principle as the current one. Put it into stairclimbing mode, lean forward and it starts climbing. But what if u want to go down stairs before reaching the top of the stairs? It would be a problem to go down a stairs in reverse, so I suppose u would have to turn the vehicle around before descending.

As for retrofitting cities, curbs would have to be sloped, doorways and ceilings will have to be increased in height. Outdoors, there will have to be more headroom so people dont bump their heads on branches, signs etc.

Seeker
09-09-2002, 02:36 PM
quote:
One problem that I can see that I haven't seen much discussion about is the problem of stairs. The ability to climb stairs is a big difference between the Segway and a pedestrian. Without that ability, the Segway won't be able to integrate perfectly with pedestrians. Even with the "follow mode", the inability to climb stairs and curbs is going to greatly reduce the utility of the Segway. (How much? Any thoughts?)


Hi yop,

I have to agree with ya. I think the stairclimbing issue is one which needs to be addressed. By the way, does anyone know exactly what this "follow mode" is ? How does it work ?

Interesting- I was watching tv last night and saw a show about this little upstart robotics company in Canada. They were producing a robot that the U.S. military was considering to purchase for things like bomb detonation. One of the tests they put this robot through was to see how well it could climb up stairs. It accomplished this task through the use of a grippable track....sort of like what a tank uses. Could something like this work for the Segway ? (to get the vehicle up the stairs, but not necessarily the rider as well)

Seeker

Seeker
09-09-2002, 03:51 PM
Here's some statements about the 'follow mode' from the Segway website :

"Each model comes equipped with a "follow mode" that allows you to effortlessly move up and down stairs." &

"Follow mode was designed to help you maneuver the Segway HT when you are not on the machine. In this mode, the Segway HT's motors are used to assist the user in moving the unit forward or backward."

"Effortlessly" sounds pretty good to me. So I guess the motors basically drive the Segway up the stairs...still can't envision exactly how this works.

Any ideas, guys ?

Seeker

Seeker
09-09-2002, 04:05 PM
Here's a few specifics on the follow up mode :

"While the Segway is not designed to be ridden up stairs, as other reports have said, the Segway can be used in a self-powered idle mode that allows the machine to be dragged behind a user at walking speed. The machine can climb a 30-degree grade, Field said. "

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,26752,00.asp

Seeker

yop
09-09-2002, 04:25 PM
I think what happens in the follow mode is that the Segway rides along the stair tread until it bumps into the next riser. The force of this impact provides enough normal force to allow the tires to get enough grip to start the Segway moving up the stair tread. Add the force of the user pulling on the handle bars, and it's enough to get the Segway up the stairs. It's not completely effortless, but the user only has to pull gently and intermittently (once per step).

Seeker
09-09-2002, 04:31 PM
Alright, that Field guy says that the Segway can climb a 30 degree grade. I'm assuming that this is talking about stairs that have a 30 degree grade, and that if it's just a ramp, it would be capable of a higher grade.

But let's assume that it can climb a 30 degree ramp as well. If that was the case, I think you could rig it so it could climb into your car by having a ramp in it ( Possibly a retractable ramp).

To make a 30 incline, if you assume it's 4 feet high into your trunk, then the ramp would have to be 8 feet long, to produce a 30 degree angle with the ground.

That sound doable I think !

Seeker

Seeker
09-09-2002, 11:46 PM
Here’s my ‘big prediction’: ;)
(aka “The ramp factor revealed”)

Some day, either Segway, or someone else will manufacture a retractable ramp, for the purpose of lifting the machine into a trunk or other high surface. It could be made of wood, or alternately from a strong material such as canvas, which could be rolled up, and would make it portable.

Seeker/ Sept 9/2002 [:o)]

n/a
09-10-2002, 11:55 AM
quote:But let's assume that it can climb a 30 degree ramp as well. If that was the case, I think you could rig it so it could climb into your car by having a ramp in it ( Possibly a retractable ramp).


An even bigger advantage with 30+ degree ramp climbing ability is that most staircases could be climbed with a Segway without the need to get off. That would require considerable retrofitting though... and considerable skill on the part of the rider.

I see that I/we are digressing from the topic of the thread here as well. I realize that it is not easy to find a forum with each new though that pops into our heads, but I suggest we work at sticking with the topic of the threads so that they dont get derailed.

The topic here was a criticizm some have raised about the Segway not being a solution to a perceived problem.

Seeker
09-10-2002, 05:51 PM
quote:

An even bigger advantage with 30+ degree ramp climbing ability is that most staircases could be climbed with a Segway without the need to get off. That would require considerable retrofitting though... and considerable skill on the part of the rider.

I see that I/we are digressing from the topic of the thread here as well. I realize that it is not easy to find a forum with each new though that pops into our heads, but I suggest we work at sticking with the topic of the threads so that they dont get derailed.

The topic here was a criticizm some have raised about the Segway not being a solution to a perceived problem.


Hi Lawrence,

I think we all tend to stray a bit off most topics, as we're divergent thinkers, and make connections between ideas. In this thread, the theme focuses on the idea that the Segway is not a solution to a particular problem, but rather a novel idea, looking for the right application(s). From there, people had brought up points relating to price, and then yop mentioned that 'new solutions lead to new problems'(eg stair climbing). Both of us and others had responded to this point.

In my opinion, it's ok to digress, and to make connections, as this is similar to what happens in the course of most conversations. I think that a number of different conversations can be taking place within the same thread, all related at some point to the original topic. There does come a time when a new idea merits a new thread. I guess my only hesitancy with starting a great number of threads, each with a narrow focus, is that it may be difficult to pick up momentum, in any one of them.

Just a few thoughts,

Seeker

n/a
09-11-2002, 12:55 PM
Seeker, we are pretty much in agreement. I just want to play moderator a little bit. If somebody wants to start a thread with a narrow focus we will have to respect that though.

The topic of this thread does, as u say, invite to speculation about new applications and unintended consequences of the invention.

Seeker
09-11-2002, 02:00 PM
Thanks Lawrence,

I really appreciate the type of communication that takes place in this Segwaychat forum :)

In a way, I think the issue of the Segway being able to climb up stairs with apparently little effort on the part of the handler, may relate to this whole topic of the Segway being a 'solution in search of a problem'. This didn't strike me at first, but then I thought about how 'being able to climb up stairs' or at least having a vehicle that is itself pretty much able to drive stairs, is a solution to a 'problem' that many people may not have realized that they had. Stated another way, the ability to get a vehicle easily up stairs, and then to use this vehicle to drive around in a building, or whatever else is at the top of those stairs....is a new type of opportunity.


I'm not sure how others feel, but to me it's an important realization that what has been stated as one of the weaknesses of a Segway; that at 80 pounds it is too heavy, may not be 'that much of a problem afterall'. There may be ways to get Segways up stairs, and into cars, without that much difficulty.

I think maybe I'll start a new thread about that topic, and see if others may have insights as well, that relate to it.

Seeker

ziggystardust_
09-11-2002, 02:08 PM
From what I know of the Segway here's my attempt to clear up some confusion as to it's capabilities:

1. When Doug Field says it can climb a 30 degree grade that means that a rider can safety ride up a hill that is at a 30 degree angle without loss of traction (given normal circumstances i.e. no snow, ice, etc.). I do not believe he is referring to dragging it up a 30 degree grade stairs. If you are strong enough you can pull it up a 90 degree grade (up a cliff) so he wasn't referring to that

2. In follow mode, the turning grip of the segway becomes a quasi-throttle and provides power to the wheels. turn the grip one way and the wheels spon forward, turn it the other and the wheels spin backward. What this gives you is the ability to 'power' the Segway up stairs by allowing the wheels to spin in the direction that you are moving. It makes it easier to move it up stairs than deadlifting it or dragging it but is certainly not effortless and becomes more troublesome as weight is added to the Segway.

charmed
09-11-2002, 02:33 PM
If it is possible to one-handedly 'drag' it up stairs with power assist, I think that is a big deal. Just having the wheels powered straight ahead in unison, especially with their generous diameter, seems like it would be possible to make it the easiest 80 lbs a person ever brought up a flight of stairs. And unlike a handtruck, the danger of it rolling back down is largely solved. At the proper angle for leverage, I would imagine that it would require very little pulling and lifting forces to guide it upstairs. Down stairs, of course, seems easier still, with the motors offering resistence and control.

n/a
09-11-2002, 06:37 PM
quote:2. In follow mode, the turning grip of the segway becomes a quasi-throttle and provides power to the wheels. turn the grip one way and the wheels spon forward, turn it the other and the wheels spin backward.

Thanks Ziggy, that is news to me. We wont know how easy it is to get a Segway up a set of stairs until somebody tells us. My guess is that to the experienced user, it should be almost effortless.