Quandry

[polo_pro]

For weeks now, I've sat...thought....remembered. Alot's happened...decisions were made....strong words were spoken. I can see both sides of this argument, so honestly, I don't know what to do.

What should a person do when my fellow gliders argue?

ps - The purpose of this thread is for people to give me more advice (and hopefully options) than what appeared in the poll. Try to be constructive people...if this gets out of hand, you'll just end up causing this thread to be deleted.

[polo_pro]

I forgot the most obvious option in that poll!

"The poster should just forget about it all and go play some polo!" 8^) 8^) 8^)

[BillK]

For me - there were several things that have helped me "cope" with others "stupidity" (what we feel it is when someone else disagrees with us ;))

1. realization of personality types
2. reaization of what matters

If you study personality types you figure out that people react differently than YOU would in the same situation. Once I got that figured out it was no longer necessary for me to try to get them to react the same way - One of my now favorite sayings is that if everyone liked the same things everyone would be after my wife!

The second thing was pretty major for me - I was brought up in a conservative religion where everything was a matter of what God wanted and it was hell or heaven with almost all decisions. I have since gone through some pretty eye opening knowledge enhancements ;) and no longer believe in all that "stuff" so what you believe and how you act (for me anyway) is no longer the same life and death struggle to make you believe what I believe.

I guess that when you can let other people be who they want to be it is a good thing.

Now - when someone is being "no fun to be around" and they are where I want to be I have a couple of choices -
1. try to get them to stop being a jerk/problem
2. leave myself

Depending on how bad I want/need to be where I am helps me to prioritize which of those two options I work on the hardest.

Not sure if any of that makes sense to you or helps in any way - but there it is...
Thanks for listening,
Bill

[quade]

Well, you may have been quiet on the subject for the last month or so, but it seems as if you're making up for lost time now. :)

Except for a very few and tenacious individuals, this topic died a while back. People do what they do and it's their issue not mine.

Anyway . . . holding grudges is bad for the soul. It turns people from being nice people that occasionally disagree into jerks with only one mission in life; to "get even." Ya can't, "get even." Ya can't unring a bell. What is said is said and what is done is done. Sometimes, ya just have to let it go.

[nora k]

For weeks now, I've sat...thought....remembered. Alot's happened...decisions were made....strong words were spoken. I can see both sides of this argument, so honestly, I don't know what to do.

What should a person do when my fellow gliders argue?

ps - The purpose of this thread is for people to give me more advice (and hopefully options) than what appeared in the poll. Try to be constructive people...if this gets out of hand, you'll just end up causing this thread to be deleted.

was there an option to sit in the fetal position in the corner holding your hands over your ears while mumbling "jesus saves"?

you publicly stated your reason for going silent last month b/c you wanted to remember gliders past. that is noble and be recognized by everyone. it was done with pure intention and the thought of others before yourself.

your ethos is polo. posters disagree all the time, but it shouldn't stop you from writing about your love for polo. and as you said the board has been way less snippy lately.

[RAG1247]

polo

you ask

What should a person do when my fellow gliders argue?

with all due respect, I am not sure of what you are asking. Are you asking what to do if you are part of the argument or as a bystander?

you can interject your thoughts into the argument which may or may not help. If the argument is straighforward such as someone stating 2 and 2 is 4 and another poster thinks the total is three, it's somewhat easier. However most of the arguments involve personal opinions and the problem becomes more of a crisis when one person tries to force their opinion on others and then gets personal.

I may think a poster is off the wall with their opinion but the minute I post such an opinion the situation gets worse. So I would never post such a comment.

If you are truly interested in seg polo and I am not, there is nothing wrong with that. Both sides are neither right or wrong.

In the grand scheme of life, most of the bickering or arguing on segway chat means very, very, little. There is far more to life than segways.

Relax and enjoy the posts you enjoy and ignore the ones you don't.

[polo_pro]

polo

you ask

What should a person do when my fellow gliders argue?


with all due respect, I am not sure of what you are asking. Are you asking what to do if you are part of the argument or as a bystander?


I meant this thread to be a companion to of the http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=17986 thread. This thread is where I wanted people to "discuss" the options in the other thread.

If you look at some of the options, it'll make more sense. I don't really have clarification for you, but as you'll see when you refer to the other thread, I'm referring to any argument that gets enough out of hand so that it involves a moderator. You may be a participant....you might not be and only have a vested interested.

[RAG1247]

the poll question asked:

When a poster disagrees with moderators regarding a topic,what should that member do?

in this thread you asked:

What should a person do when my fellow gliders argue?

I guess I looked at it that they were not the same question.

Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, this chat is not a democracy. You can provide your comments to the moderators, but must live with whatever decision he, she, or they come to, if you wish to stay in the game.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, which for the most part should be respected even though one might think someone should be institutionalized.

[KSagal]

I feel there are surely avenues that a person can take that are not in that poll.

First off, the poll seems to take the position that when you disagree with a moderator, that is it. Discussion closed...

I feel that the moderators are just people with a job. I get along with all of them, but to differing degrees. I may not agree with the actions of one, but they are not a single brain with four bodies...

They treat each other with respect, as we all should. But that does not mean that you cannot respectfully disagree with a decision. IF you do, and express that well, with sufficient documentation, then your argument does not fit any of the choices that I saw in the poll.

You may or may not convince them to reverse a decision, but if you are successful in your argument, then possibly, the next time the issue comes up, it will have had the benifit of the previous discussion, and may possibly come to a different end...

So, the moderators are clearly not thinking democratically on this forum, but that does not mean they are not thinking. Appeal to their sense of right and wrong, and see what influence you may have...

I do not condone pushing the issue too hard, because as I said, they are just people, and no one likes to to be forced into a corner.

Of course, I do not always exibit the ability to follow my own advise. It is sound advise, but not easy to master...

[polo_pro]

I feel there are surely avenues that a person can take that are not in that poll.

Just so people know, other SC readers have mentioned this to me. I was limited to only 10 options. I even dropped off the "Oh, just drop the matter and go play some polo" option!

It really hurt to pass up a chance to OPTA like that! 8^) 8^) 8^)

ps - Other folks have made similar comments as Karl. I thought the fifth option of "The poster should discuss what's acceptable with the moderator, and then rephrase things" covers the idea of working out any issues with the moderators in a civil manner (either before or after the act of posting).

Karl is correct that I didn't really include options where as an uninvolved third party you agree with the moderators. For those cases, there's really no issue with how a SC reader proceed forward. It's pretty much a matter of sending the moderators a "good job" PM and maybe posting something publicly showing your support of their decision. That's pretty much a "business as usual" scenario.

[segsurfer]

Polo_Pro, good to have you back buddy
I think that the poll needs a write in category if that is possible.

If I were faced with the issue mentioned in the poll, I would consult the terms of service to see where I could have possibly violated the terms of service; and/or just write a mod asking them specifically what I have done wrong, and specifically what I can do to rectify the situation. Yes the mod system isn't perfect, but every system has it's inherent flaws and SC is no different.
disclaimer: This is just my personal opinion, you can take it or leave, it it's entirely up to you.
-segsurfer

[jryan]

I suppose this would all depend on who you are talking to and how strongly they feel. There are times when it is just appeal and get no response and that's that. Like many have said this is no democracy nor is it anywhere close. If a mod has an issue with something they can 9and sometimes do) moderate you and fail to justify upon request. The also, at times, moderate for things that do not fall into the tos. But you know what, no matter how bad you feel this is, it is their right. People come to this forum and stay on this forum by their own will.

You have every right to disagree with the mods but in the end what they say goes and that is just how it is. If you don't like it create your own forum, from hearing counts, this does not work well. So, in conclusion, whether right or not, the mods have every right to put you on moderation or completely ban you, and have every right to not give you the time of day when you ask for reasons.

That being said, as I have seen, the mods usually will respond and justify their actions. They have busy lives as do all of us, so it may take some time. But if anyone is looking for a democracy go elsewhere, this is not it. Thanks and have a great day.



Jeremy Ryan

[Eric Payne]

I can't help but notice the absence of answers from the only four people who can adequately address all of Steve's questions.

[JohnG]

Moderators can't provide any additional "opinions" about how to deal with conflict and conflict resolution on these -- or any online -- forums. Each person deals with such conflict differently, but keeping in mind that on SC (as in many other forums), these conflicts are not inherently personal until people make them so. We moderate/act upon issues when they present a problem or are against the ToS.

Two adults can respectfully disagree on any given topic, no?

John

[jryan]

We moderate/act upon issues when they present a problem or are against the ToS.

Two adults can respectfully disagree on any given topic, no?

John

But essentially you are determining which issues have a problem. In essence a problem may present itself to you (or any mod) but not to anyone else and you (or any mod) can still moderate. Not saying this is wrong, you (or any mod) have every right, but I am just pointing out, John, that what presents a problem to one does not always to any others.

Please, do not consider this a personal attack I am just stating my opinion. This is not against you, I am commenting on moderators in general on this forum and most others. Yes, two adults can respectfully disagree but that does not mean their post will be honored. Regardless, this is how many forums work and they do not advertise as a democracy by any means, so you cannot expect them to work as such. The fact is that all the mods as well as many people here are personally good people.

The problem the mods have is that they are the "police". They have some things they have to follow and some wiggle room. In essence, however sometimes they will look like complete jerks and sometimes they will look really nice. Either way, what they do on their "job" has no effect on how they are as a person. I have heard a saying "you are not a real member of chat until you've quarreled with the mods". There is some truth to that, however you need to seperate these arguments and not hold them personally or take them personally because in all essence how someone is online has no inclination to how they are as a person "except online predators"!


Jeremy Ryan

[JohnG]

Small problems may be handled individually by a single mod, such as the prodigious use of profanity. Larger problems are handled by a consensus of the entire team.

It's simply not true that you have to "quarrel" with a mod to be a contributing and helpful member of this or any online community. The vast majority of members here at SC have never been contacted or have any "problems" with the team. Most of our efforts are (as they are in virtually every online community) directed at not more than a handful of members. There are many, many regulars here who've never even been PMed by a moderator (for a community issue).

J

[Timezkware Tim]

polo, this conundrum about moderators and posters disagreeing and how to handle it is really a moot point. Either policy is followed, or it's not. Most MBs work this way already.

In any bulletin-board/message board/forum, chat, or blog website, ground rules re: policy should be stated. Most of the time they are. In many cases, the basic protocol is no swearing or masked swearing, no flame wars or personal attacks, no spamming; etc. In many cases the house policy includes no political, religious, drug promotion related or sexual nature posts or threads. Most policies also simply state that those posts will be deleted.

Beyond the stated rules, (usually in a FAQ, Forum Rules, or Terms of Service section) as long as people post without breaking these rules, they should be able to express their opinions without intervention or censorship.

Any censored posters who are following the rules by the Web management (mods) makes the website a sham, and not a true bulletin board format.

If a mod disagrees with a poster who is following the rules, they can simply post their disagreement as if they were just another poster. However, if a poster breaks the rules, then progressive discipline should be applied, based on the severity of the post, and the relationship of the poster.

Example: If a 7 year poster with a great rep and 5,000 posts suddenly flames someone a few times one day, and they never do that, the post should be deleted, and a warning given. If a first time poster comes on and does this, they should be banned (log-in suspended) pending a short conversation. If they they still don't get it, ban 'em.

Moderating board is essentially managing people. There's no black and white answer. The only thing that is black and white is this: If you have a discussion site or blog with rules and policies, as long as posters abide by the policies, they should be able to post whatever they want if the site is to have any credibility.

Ultimately, if that site wants to exclude a certain type of post, they should simply add that to their list of policies and guidelines.

On another note...

Re: Your interest in web polls and rating systems:

Many MBs that don't enjoy millions of hits a month exist with a strong regular membership. Without taking anything away from the credibility and validity of their opinions, realize that the actual numbers of posters are small. Even if you have 1000 members, you are still small.

Fact: When you have a few dozen people answer a poll, the sample is so small, it's meaningless. No matter how much in your heart you want the results to say something, they won't. Really. As far as rating systems, the scores only reflect the opinions of the small number of people who play the rating game, so the results are also meaningless. In other words, it really doesn't reflect how MOST people really feel.

Polls work well if you are ESPN, and you are asking who will win the NL East, and 35,000 respondents choose the Mets over Atlanta. Rating systems are OK if you are Zagat or Consumer Reports and thousands of people are involved. When 14 people answer a poll, the 3 in. red colored bar graph looks really dramatic next to the blue and orange 1/2 in. bar graphs, but don't let that fool you; it's still 14 people.

SZ, you know I totally respect your opinion, and will forever be greatful for teaching me how to handle a polo mallet, but I think perusing answers in polls and ratings should wait until you get at least a few hundred respondents, and that won't be here at SC for a while. Then you will have a sample you can really look at. In the meantime, work on your no-look dribble; hellphish can show you a few tips, lol.

Tim

[KSagal]

Polo,

i have not answered your poll, as I did not find an answer that I thought represented my position. Because of that, I am asking that you post the results somewhere so we who have not joined can see.

Thanks...

[polo_pro]

i have not answered your poll, as I did not find an answer that I thought represented my position. Because of that, I am asking that you post the results somewhere so we who have not joined can see.

Karl, I haven't answered the poll either. But when I click on the View Results link at the bottom of the options, it shows me how everyone else voted. Does it behave differently for you?

ps - I'll be happy to post the results here if this is the case. I'm not trying to keep any information out of the hands of anyone.

[KSagal]

Karl, I haven't answered the poll either. But when I click on the View Results link at the bottom of the options, it shows me how everyone else voted. Does it behave differently for you?

ps - I'll be happy to post the results here if this is the case. I'm not trying to keep any information out of the hands of anyone.


Sorry, I had not tried that button. I am not so interested in the names of who said what, but what the predominent feelings were...

I have difficulty with some of the semantics and phrasiology of the choices, not the effort or the concept. Good luck with it.

[TX2Wheels]

I have been viewing SC for some time and I know there is some sort of click of which I don't belong nor does it bother me. To each his own. If they argue I sometimes learn a lot from their disagreement. From time to time differences occur and people have feel inclined to vent. If it were friends of mine I would probably intervene. Now Karl speaks volumes. As for me when Karl speaks i read. His accessment of himself is very accurate. The same goes for Nora and others to numerous to mention. This forum is filled with advice and know how and readily given without any need to be compensated or praise. It is my desire to go to Indiana just to meet these people. I guess what I am trying to say is read the positive stuff and try to learn from the negative.
Regards,

Jay Guillot

[polo_pro]

First let me thank the SC readership for giving me input on what's been a very tough choice. I was heartened to find that your opinions mirror my own. I guess I've always been a moderate, so the "read the ToS" and "talk with the moderators and rephrase" choices have always been how I handle sticky matters.

However, as you could tell from my later follow ups in the poll thread, I wanted to hear if folks felt other (more difficult) choices were appropriate. The third most popular answer was to "let the matter drop at the moderator's request", and I've done this many times in the past. Heck, I even did it again this week over what clearly was a trivial matter of wording.

A clear minority of the SC readership took a tougher line. They felt that besides the above choices, "drifting away quietly" and "leaving to create another forum" were an appropriate way to resolve differences between posters and moderators. I'm sure the former has happened countless times, but I only know of one instance of the latter (segwaychatt by Itsi). I've tended to favor these tougher choices, but then I prefer decisive actions that clearly resolve the matter.

So, I bid you all adieu. I'll be logging off SC tonight for the last time. This is my last post. I've enjoyed my time with all you here. I'll see you all at Segfest 2008 (or sooner...perhaps on the polo field!)!

ps - At no point did any of the SC leadership participate in the poll. They didn't discuss the matter informally with me, and I didn't want to put them on the spot by trying to coax an answer out of them. Historically, the SC leadership has never encouraged open discussion about any of these choices, and their lack of participation this time around fits that precident. So my choice of what to do was not influenced by them...well, at least, not directly.

[RAG1247]

first of all, you are entitled and free to make any decisions as to your future participation in SC. I guess I am confused based on your fervent interest, support, promotion and activity relative to segway polo, which of course requires a segway. While I am not a "poloist" (never tried), it was always good to see your ever continuing promotion of the sport.

somehow, I guess you are fighting some inner turmoil as far as SC is concerned and that is a shame. Life goes on for all of us and is ever changing.

Your polo comments will be missed and like any other decision in life, you may change your mind.

stay well and watch out for flying mallets.

[JohnG]

I too find this whole situation a shame, and a shame that you wanted the membership's input, got it, disagreed with it too (except some small minority), and still decided to do what I guess you had wanted to do all along (just wanted some "support" for your decision). You went to a lot of trouble to justify your actions here... and I hope it was all worth it.

I also find it absolutely amazing that on an Internet full of billions of pages, people feel so *limited* to only posting here on SC about Segway topics. If it were me, I would've created a website of my own (there are only a hundred dozen places that let you do so for free) with whatever information-that's-so-important-but-SC-won't-let-me-post-it, and be done with it. We've never stopped anyone from doing so, and in fact, other members have successful Segway-related websites (that often come and go, but still...).

So I'm sorry to see you go and I hope you take care in your Segway travels. We'll be seeing you.

John

PS - At no point did the SC "leadership" believe it was appropriate for them to participate in the poll, since we didn't want to influence the results and our own stance on these kinds of issues is already clear -- read the ToS, follow the ToS, and if you don't like it, sorry.

[David Long]

I too find this whole situation a shame, and a shame that you wanted the membership's input, got it, disagreed with it too (except some small minority), and still decided to do what I guess you had wanted to do all along (just wanted some "support" for your decision). You went to a lot of trouble to justify your actions here... and I hope it was all worth it.


I find it a shame that with a forum purporting 6,491 members, only 21 were around to participate in polo_pro's poll. That is where the real shame lies, Herr Uber, that the vast majority of members have been voting with their feet. Please count my vote among them.

Regards,
David_Long

[jryan]

PS - At no point did the SC "leadership" believe it was appropriate for them to participate in the poll, since we didn't want to influence the results and our own stance on these kinds of issues is already clear -- read the ToS, follow the ToS, and if you don't like it, sorry.

First off, I too will miss you Polo. Although I still plan to stay on SC I have toggled with the idea of creating my own forum just to keep in touch with those like yourself and to offer, like John said, a place for people to go with stuff they cannot discuss here (not personal attacks). So I did. If one wants to find it they can find a way, to post the url here would be a violation of the tos so I will not do so.

I was not here through the Itsi ordeal and I also don't see from looking at his posts what all happened. I have heard that his forum was created as a new SC to try to draw members to switch over. That is not what mine is if you can find it. Mine will simply be so that members who are mad can still communicate with others. Personal attacks on the SC moderators will not be allowed either.

But I want to touch up on the quote above John! You somehow seem to imply that you only act when someone violates the tos. This simply is not true and you yourself have said in the past that there are times you act on that which does not fall in the tos. It is pretty easy to say now that you only moderate based on the tos because the tos includes pretty muche everything now in one way or another so a mere "Hello from a Segway Enthusiast" body of a post could potentially violate. But in the past you have acted on things outside the tos and I am not saying this is right or wrong. What I am saying is that you have done it and regardless of whether it is right or wrong you can do it because you are a moderator. I'm sorry, you may think I have overstepped my bounds but I could not allow it to be noted that you only moderate based on the tos!


Jeremy Ryan

[wwhopper]

Not one of the founding members, though I joined in March of 2003. And have seen a number of disgruntled members of Segway Chat though out the years.

Some like Itsi went off and started their own forum.

A yahoo groups segway-open was started early on as a place for those displeased with Segway Chat to go, and that was hot for awhile, but it has been pretty quiet in the last few months.

SegwayChat is a place that has been around since the beginning, and knowing John, Pam, Sal and myself, who also have been around, and plan on staying around, I don't see SC going away any time soon.

SC has rules as you can see in the terms of service. And like anywhere else, the rules are there to be followed, and we have moderators who enforce them. If you break the rules, the moderators let you know, if you continue to break the rules then you go on moderation.

Only in very rare cases has anyone been removed from the membership for being out of control on Segwaychat. Some like to say they have been removed, but when I look at their membership, they may be on moderation, but they are still members and able to communicate, it is just that their posts must be approved by the moderators before they get posted.

Just like in society, if you can not live by the laws of society, then you get removed from society.

In general, this is a great place to find out information, share information, communicate with friends, and have lively discussions with others in the community. And Segway chat has always been a leader in the community, and will be in the future as well.

[JohnG]

Actually David, I did check the activity stats from the past 2 years, and the past 2 months have been 2 of the strongest on record (except in Aug 2006 when the i2/x2 were released). Insofar that "people are voting with their feet," the data don't support that hypothesis (but it sounds good, doesn't it?!). As for how many people who vote in a poll, c'est la vie. We're not here to promote individual agendas, only the Segway! :)

Yes, Jeremy, we are often proactive in keeping this community from becoming a cesspool, but it does have to violate the ToS (even the old ToS). You have to remember, this community was started so as to offer a more intelligent and dare I say it, polite and respectful, alternative to the other Segway community of the day (back in 2002). That has never changed and we will continue to work in a way to ensure there is a degree of civility here sorely lacking in other online communities.

John

[David Long]

SC has rules as you can see in the terms of service. And like anywhere else, the rules are there to be followed, and we have moderators who enforce them. If you break the rules, the moderators let you know, if you continue to break the rules then you go on moderation.

. . .

Just like in society, if you can not live by the laws of society, then you get removed from society.

. . .



And when the administrator himself ignores the TOS with impunity, then you turn a 6,491 member forum into one with 21 active members.

[nora k]

I find it a shame that with a forum purporting 6,491 members, only 21 were around to participate in polo_pro's poll. That is where the real shame lies, Herr Uber, that the vast majority of members have been voting with their feet. Please count my vote among them.

Regards,
David_Long

i'm not sure there's logic in this argument, since there are active posters who stated they didn't vote and other posters who didn't vote but are active. and since i have started posting i have not noticed a drop off from 6,491 members to 21. why are you considering poll participants the only active posters on the site?

[RAG1247]

I find it a shame that with a forum purporting 6,491 members, only 21 were around to participate in polo_pro's poll. That is where the real shame lies, Herr Uber, that the vast majority of members have been voting with their feet. Please count my vote among them.

Regards,
David_Long

There have been numerous polls before with low vote counts. The "are you going to segfest poll" had only 78 members who responded. I didn't vote because imo, some of the choices bordered on being ridiculous. To me the poll was basically a smokescreen about one or two issues with a few members, and to gain some form of support from other members. SC is not a democracy.

Like it or not the tos has before stated quite clearly that the moderators operate "in their own discretion". You can disagree with a moderator's decision (although if it didn't involve you personaly, I have no idea how one would know what really happened), you can explain your position, etc., but at the end of the day, one has to accept their decision, if one is to continue being a part of segway chat.

David, I also have some confusion. If you thought it a shame that only 21 members voted, why didn't you vote or am I missing something?

[RAG1247]

First off, I too will miss you Polo. Although I still plan to stay on SC I have toggled with the idea of creating my own forum just to keep in touch with those like yourself and to offer, like John said, a place for people to go with stuff they cannot discuss here (not personal attacks). So I did. If one wants to find it they can find a way, to post the url here would be a violation of the tos so I will not do so.

I was not here through the Itsi ordeal and I also don't see from looking at his posts what all happened. I have heard that his forum was created as a new SC to try to draw members to switch over. That is not what mine is if you can find it. Mine will simply be so that members who are mad can still communicate with others. Personal attacks on the SC moderators will not be allowed either.

But I want to touch up on the quote above John! You somehow seem to imply that you only act when someone violates the tos. This simply is not true and you yourself have said in the past that there are times you act on that which does not fall in the tos. It is pretty easy to say now that you only moderate based on the tos because the tos includes pretty muche everything now in one way or another so a mere "Hello from a Segway Enthusiast" body of a post could potentially violate. But in the past you have acted on things outside the tos and I am not saying this is right or wrong. What I am saying is that you have done it and regardless of whether it is right or wrong you can do it because you are a moderator. I'm sorry, you may think I have overstepped my bounds but I could not allow it to be noted that you only moderate based on the tos!


Jeremy Ryan

Jeremy - How do you know what the moderators have or haven't done? Do you have some back door entrance to SC or is it based on what some have told you occurred? Remember there are two sides to every issue and it is impossible to make a judgment on the basis of comments by one side "as reported".

[nora k]

Jeremy - How do you know what the moderators have or haven't done? Do you have some back door entrance to SC or is it based on what some have told you occurred? Remember there are two sides to every issue and it is impossible to make a judgment on the basis of comments by one side "as reported".

as grownups, the moderators also have a sense of decorum. i have never seen them make a public example of a poster's issue to satiate the board's thirst for "answers."

[jryan]

Jeremy - How do you know what the moderators have or haven't done? Do you have some back door entrance to SC or is it based on what some have told you occurred? Remember there are two sides to every issue and it is impossible to make a judgment on the basis of comments by one side "as reported".

Rag, I will not go too far into this, in an effort not to be disresepectful to anyone or the forum itself. All I was saying is that there were times (how frequently I cannot say, maybe once maybe 100 times, I can only speak for sure for one) when the moderators put someone on moderation for something that did not violate the tos. They have said themselves that there are times (once again the frequency in this statement could mean several or just one) when someone is put on moderation for something that does not violate the tos. That is why, as I understand it (I could be wrong) they adopted a new tos.

Once again in all but one of these instances it was just something I heard so I cannot state it as fact for these. But I had a personal expierience where I was moderated for something that did not violate the tos at the time. I even had a friend (who was a retired lawyer) read what I wrote then the tos and he concurred there was no violation. As far as details I will not go any further out of respect for John. He had every right to do what he did because he is a moderator. I am not saying he did anything illegal or wrong (whether right or wrong is a matter of opinion). All I am saying is it has happened where one is moderated and does not violate the tos.


Jeremy Ryan

[SEGsby]

Agreed.

Segchat is a fantastic resource for people looking for information about a very odd, but useful device that most people don't understand.

Once they settle in, and get comfy, one then notices some of the darker politics that inevitably occur when the same people collect and commune together online for a period of time.

But from my short experience here, the moderators have done a great job in preventing the site from being diverted to other agendas, by keeping their focus as to what this forum is really about: the Segway. How to use it, how to fix it, how to haul it, how to play polo on it, how to get married on it, how to change your life if you can't walk, etc.. The possibilities and the problems we each bring to this Forum, make participation a rich and diversified experience for all it's users. There is truly, something here for almost everyone. That is the amazing thing about SegChat, for me.

But unrealistic expectations are like screaming children messing in someone else's sandbox. Admittedly, some people tolerate chaos better than others. But the ultimate reality is: We're all just guests here. Some may check in, toss some sand around, and play quietly. Some might throw it in the face of another child in a heated exchange, or one might build an amazingly detailed sand castle, to freely share with any onlooker. And some may check out, and put their pails and shovels away one day...

And that's a perfectly natural and normal cycle. But the box itself, remains essentially unchanged. Text is the sand we all use to share & shape our thoughts and ideas. It isn't ours, we didn't invent it. But we put them all together in the same box.

Like John Lennon once sang: it's "Nothing to get hung about..."

Segway fields, forever. :)

SEGsby

Not one of the founding members, though I joined in March of 2003. And have seen a number of disgruntled members of Segway Chat though out the years.

Some like Itsi went off and started their own forum.

A yahoo groups segway-open was started early on as a place for those displeased with Segway Chat to go, and that was hot for awhile, but it has been pretty quiet in the last few months.

SegwayChat is a place that has been around since the beginning, and knowing John, Pam, Sal and myself, who also have been around, and plan on staying around, I don't see SC going away any time soon.

SC has rules as you can see in the terms of service. And like anywhere else, the rules are there to be followed, and we have moderators who enforce them. If you break the rules, the moderators let you know, if you continue to break the rules then you go on moderation.

Only in very rare cases has anyone been removed from the membership for being out of control on Segwaychat. Some like to say they have been removed, but when I look at their membership, they may be on moderation, but they are still members and able to communicate, it is just that their posts must be approved by the moderators before they get posted.

Just like in society, if you can not live by the laws of society, then you get removed from society.

In general, this is a great place to find out information, share information, communicate with friends, and have lively discussions with others in the community. And Segway chat has always been a leader in the community, and will be in the future as well.

[KSagal]

I did not vote in the poll. I am often maligned, sometimes deserving, but rarely considered not an active poster...

While I agree that there are problems here, and am hardly a fan of the treatment I have gotten from the moderators, the bottom line is that this is still a real resource for the segway community, and I feel that as such, it provides a service...

Is it run the way I would? No. Is it fair? No. Does everyone get treated the same? No. Are the moderators human, and subject to the flaws that are common in every other human I know? Yes. Are there competent and comprehensive alternatives? No. Is that important? Yes.

So, there you are... This place is a resource for the segway community. If you detract from it, you deny the community the insite and wisdom you posess. Are there reasons to be mad from time to time with a management that does not do things you think as they should be done? Sure. That is only human. Does it mean that you should take your views, insights, and knowledge elsewhere? Each person must make that call themselves...

I believe that Steve (polo pro) has brought a great deal to this community, and more on point, to this forum. Will he be missed? Yes. Will I personally miss him here? Yes.

Again, am I a fan of the way I have been treated here? No. Do I feel that some others may have gotten the dirty end of the stick? Yes, I believe so.

But... So what? Contribute what you can, as best you can within the structure here. Push as far as you want, and be prepared for the results... Push too far too often, and expect those who are in charge here to get mad, and push back. That is the way the world works...

It is a fact that far more people come as guests on this forum than those who sign in. It is a fact that many people come here to find out about segways, but also about segway users. They see an eyefull, that is for sure...

I will not quote specifics, but everytime I check, lurkers (guests) outnumber posters 10 to one or more. These folks want informaton on segs and seggers, and this is a good place to see that...

This forum is a private place, in a public environment. Everyone here is a guest, and attend at the whim of the moderators. Logged in posters, and those identified as guests, all have to pay that price to play here... If you are not willing to pay that price, as most earlier posters and very senior chat members have shown, then you can indeed vote with your feet...

For me, I will continue to be open to possible alternatives, but for the time being, this is the most obvious game in town...

[pam]

Many of the "guests" = in fact, I would venture that the majority of the "guests" are web-bots collecting information for their "organizations" (that's how google comes up with the information, or ask.com) - if you look at them, you will see that a vast majority of them come from the same ISP, or ISPs close in number.

Pam

[JohnG]

Thanks Karl and all the others who've posted to this thread, stating important points, but the most important, I believe, is simply that we're here to chat about Segways, the product and the company (either positives or negatives of either), and do so in respectful and civil manner (as much as possible).

John

[Banned_Seg]

Posts are up

So what's the problem?

Don't let a few cry babies make you leave the playground!

[jryan]

I did not vote in the poll. I am often maligned, sometimes deserving, but rarely considered not an active poster...

While I agree that there are problems here, and am hardly a fan of the treatment I have gotten from the moderators, the bottom line is that this is still a real resource for the segway community, and I feel that as such, it provides a service...

Is it run the way I would? No. Is it fair? No. Does everyone get treated the same? No. Are the moderators human, and subject to the flaws that are common in every other human I know? Yes. Are there competent and comprehensive alternatives? No. Is that important? Yes.

So, there you are... This place is a resource for the segway community. If you detract from it, you deny the community the insite and wisdom you posess. Are there reasons to be mad from time to time with a management that does not do things you think as they should be done? Sure. That is only human. Does it mean that you should take your views, insights, and knowledge elsewhere? Each person must make that call themselves...

I believe that Steve (polo pro) has brought a great deal to this community, and more on point, to this forum. Will he be missed? Yes. Will I personally miss him here? Yes.

Again, am I a fan of the way I have been treated here? No. Do I feel that some others may have gotten the dirty end of the stick? Yes, I believe so.

But... So what? Contribute what you can, as best you can within the structure here. Push as far as you want, and be prepared for the results... Push too far too often, and expect those who are in charge here to get mad, and push back. That is the way the world works...

It is a fact that far more people come as guests on this forum than those who sign in. It is a fact that many people come here to find out about segways, but also about segway users. They see an eyefull, that is for sure...

I will not quote specifics, but everytime I check, lurkers (guests) outnumber posters 10 to one or more. These folks want informaton on segs and seggers, and this is a good place to see that...

This forum is a private place, in a public environment. Everyone here is a guest, and attend at the whim of the moderators. Logged in posters, and those identified as guests, all have to pay that price to play here... If you are not willing to pay that price, as most earlier posters and very senior chat members have shown, then you can indeed vote with your feet...

For me, I will continue to be open to possible alternatives, but for the time being, this is the most obvious game in town...


I bet you never thought you would hear me say this Karl, but I completely agree with you. You see the thing is that the word fair is a matter of opinion. The moderators (as far as I know) do not try to be unfair so in their opinion this forum probably is fair. To someone on the other end of the stick it may not be fair in their opinion. We are all entitled to our opinions and that is a great thing about free society. But in the end the moderators have final say on what happens and that is just the way it is.

These are human people with human emotions. I think the problem is misunderstanding. As John said they try to keep the boards respectful. What is respectful to one may not be respectful to another. One person can take offense to a certain thing and no one else can. For the most part, I believe that the moderators try as best they can to act with fairness. That being said what a particular moderator may view as fair other people may not.

There are few times in any forum where the offense is clear cut. Most of the time administrative action is taken there is some grey area. If I were to come on here and swear and cus it would be almost unanimous to say it was fair for me to be "punished". If I were to come in and discuss something of which is not blatantly disrespectful or out of linee but the moderators do not want me to discuss it then whether or not it is fair to say not to discuss is a matter of opinion. But the moderators, in essence have final say and while I would not call it "their house" if they do not own it, they do have the right to ask that their wishes be respected.

If you don't like it either just move on or go somewhere else. It is what it is, does that make it right? No, there hardly ever is a right and wrong in these situations just merely a topic and a set of conflicting views. As I have stated earlier, the trick is to seperate their "job" from your views of them as a person. I have not agreed with the actions of certain moderators and I do not find myself right nor do I find them right. I find in my situation, there really is no right and wrong, just perceptions and views we are all entitled to. That being said, although I may not agree with actions taken against me or some others, I do not make personal judgements. I view them all as good people and that is what I hope all will do (unless you personally know them and know otherwise)! That is what I have to say. Take it how you want!


Jeremy Ryan

P.S. It is important for me to note that the moderators have done a decent job of letting me know or asking questions when they find something out of line or in their perception disrespectful. I have not always agreed but I try to follow their requests. I have challenged up and down via pm on occasion (by the way, I don't seee anything wrong with questioning a moderators decision, but via pm). But in the end, what they say goes, whether you or others view it right or wrong! Oh, and if you ever don't hear from me, please do send an e-mail or call, chances are that I am either in the hospital or on moderation. If either happens, it's still great to hear from you all!

[JohnG]

David, I just wanted to correct something you said or implied, that SC has only 21 active members. vBulletin has a nice built-in stats package that shows us exactly what kind of activity is going on on the site.

On average, we have between 160 and 180 unique logins everyday, which has not changed one bit since the beginning of the year. We've had over 450 unique logins in the past month. In fact, both January and Feb. 2008 have been two of our most active months on record for new posts!

So despite what some disgruntled folks might think, SC is doing just fine, thank you very much. Because the data, unlike people, don't lie.

John

[jryan]

David, I just wanted to correct something you said or implied, that SC has only 21 active members. vBulletin has a nice built-in stats package that shows us exactly what kind of activity is going on on the site.

On average, we have between 160 and 180 unique logins everyday, which has not changed one bit since the beginning of the year. We've had over 450 unique logins in the past month. In fact, both January and Feb. 2008 have been two of our most active months on record for new posts!

So despite what some disgruntled folks might think, SC is doing just fine, thank you very much. Because the data, unlike people, don't lie.

John

John, you cannot go by number of unique logins. You can go by number of posts to measure activity but the fact is that the number of unique logins does not measure activity in the slightest bit. You see you can have 10,000 unique logins and only 10 of those may post. It is like at my polling place. My polling place is at a popular park with a nice hill to sled. If the news reported that there were 20,000 ballots cast because 20,000 people came to the park that would be false. Because although 20,000 people may have come to the park, many of them may have been coming for the hill and not to "contribute" by voting.

Now do I think that segwaychat is going down in a pit of ashes, no! If your data is correct on the post counts being higher these two months than ever before then I would say that yes, segway chat is thriving. I just had to correct the login data as being grounds for saying that the chat is thriving because that is no way to count active posters. But once again, I really don't think segwaychat is anywhere near the verge of closing down!


Jeremy Ryan

[JohnG]

Jeremy, I respectfully disagree. It's a well known statistic that most members of most online communities never post, or post only occasionally -- they join only to read and be able to PM other members. 90% of a community's posts are typically from less than 10% of its members.

John