Batteries....

[Blinky]

Does anyone know what the average life span is of the Segway-Ht's scooters batteries?

Also, which company will be the ones producing them?

[don c.]

quote:Originally posted by Blinky

Does anyone know what the average life span is of the Segway-Ht's scooters batteries?

Also, which company will be the ones producing them?


I don't know the specifics regarding battery life for the Segway. Saft battery is providing both nickel metal hydride and lithium ion batteries for Segway. The lithium-ion batteries will more than likely be reserved for the commercial (e) models. www.saftsales.com/

[Brooster]

According to Segway's Web site the NiMH batteries are supposed to be good for between 300 and 500 charge/discharge cycles. I remember going and looking that up a while back.

Brooster

[Blinky]

Thanks Don c. and Brooster.

Its very interesting, yet obvious that Segway pick this company. I wonder if all companies Segway associates with are as environment conscious as Saft.

Another question, will the battery design be unique for the Segway-HT or will it be something already invented? (if you know)


Should be interesting to see if other companies get into that competition for making batteries for the Segway-HT.

I could see Energizers commercial now. :)
(Bunny on screen with Segway-HT, 360 turn, bunny off screen)

[don c.]

[quote

Another question, will the battery design be unique for the Segway-HT or will it be something already invented? (if you know)
[/quote]

http://www.saftbatteries.com/download/fichiers/press_2001-26_0000102.pdf

<center>PRESS RELEASE </center>

Saft To Supply Batteries for Segway TM Human Transporter

Saft, a leader in the worldwide marketplace for self-contained energy solutions, announced its supplier role with Segway LLC, providing self-contained Ni-Cd and Ni-MH batteries for the Segway TM Human Transporter (HT), the first dynamic self-balancing, electric-powered transportation machine.

The Segway Human Transporter (HT) with Saft batteries (www.saftbatteries.com) allows you to go farther, move quicker and carry more, anywhere you can walk.

Saft worked with Segway in developing self-contained Ni-Cd and Ni-MH batteries that feature integrated charge and discharge management electronics. Designed for Segway's HT application, Saft provides high power batteries, which offer:


Excellent voltage curve performance during discharge
Long life duration: greater than 500 cycles
Capable of 40 to 50A continuous discharge
Low internal resistance
Quick charge capability: 2 to 4 hours.

[dupa]

From what I've read, the batteries last about two hours at steady use, not real great and a major drawback. Segway has been saying the Segway can go about 16 miles on a charge, so at an average 8 miles per hour, the two hour number sounds accurate.
I asked Gary Bridge when I talked to him if they were developing and extra battery pack to be carried, he said yes, and that they were designing the batteries to be quick-change types.
Of course, battery technology can only improve.

[Casey]

Any dry cell battery can be a quick and simple item for the rider to change. All it would require is easy access to the battery compartment and quick connectors, ie unplug one and plug the charged one in.

The spare could be easily stored in a properly sized pouch attached to Segway. You would just need to be sure you had your spare charged before leaving home. A green indicator light on the carrying pouch would let you know instantly the state of the charge, similar to the little indicators on the newer DuraCell batteries.

[n/a]

quote:Any dry cell battery can be a quick and simple item for the rider to change. All it would require is easy access to the battery compartment and quick connectors, ie unplug one and plug the charged one in.

An extra battery that can easily be swaped would be a big advantage. I didnt get the impression that the batteries were so easy to swap on Segway. (It takes 5-10 minues?) They should definitely consider that if they havent done so. If they had done so they should have said so. However an extra battery might e easy to steal. People might not want to carry it around with them when not using the Segway. Battery thievery might be a problem in any case. Even if a theif had no use for a Segway without the key, they might be able to sell the battery and perhaps some other parts.

[Brooster]

Good point, Lawrence. Perhaps weskifm can give us some more info on how the battery compartment is accessed?

Brooster

[GlideMaster]

This weskifm New Member.

The battery life is suppose to be good from 11 to 17 miles. But of course it's according to how you ride it. I was told that fast starts and quick hard stops can use up a lot of the charge. I've only drained it down to a stand still once. The good thing is you can charge the Segway any time or as many times as you want. Every ten minutes or every ten hours. It does not have a memory problem.


quote:Originally posted by Blinky

Does anyone know what the average life span is of the Segway-Ht's scooters batteries?

Also, which company will be the ones producing them?

[don c.]

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence

quote:Any dry cell battery can be a quick and simple item for the rider to change. All it would require is easy access to the battery compartment and quick connectors, ie unplug one and plug the charged one in.

An extra battery that can easily be swaped would be a big advantage. I didnt get the impression that the batteries were so easy to swap on Segway. (It takes 5-10 minues?) They should definitely consider that if they havent done so. If they had done so they should have said so. However an extra battery might e easy to steal. People might not want to carry it around with them when not using the Segway. Battery thievery might be a problem in any case. Even if a theif had no use for a Segway without the key, they might be able to sell the battery and perhaps some other parts.


I suggested this way back when on TIQ, actually: easily swappable batteries that could be traded for a fresh charged battery at convenience stores, kiosks, etc. People were concerned you could get a battery near the end of its service life and it would be a potential ripoff. I don't see it that way. You scale the price of a battery depending on how many useful hours are left in its service life, or give credits for a relatively new unit.

Also, I think the SmartKey could be used both to lock the battery in place and to render it useless if stolen.

[GlideMaster]

Hi Dupa

I rode the Segway the other day for about three hours and the battery had only depleted about thirty percent of it's charge according to Bingo. Though I was ridding outside I did stop now and then to talk but never very long nor did I ride it very often at a high rate of speed. Took it up a dirt and gravel hill mixed with mulch. It was a little slippery but not much of a problem other wise I have ridden one to full battery depletion a while back. Better hope you don't have far to drag it (I was lucky I was indoors).


quote:Originally posted by dupa

From what I've read, the batteries last about two hours at steady use, not real great and a major drawback. Segway has been saying the Segway can go about 16 miles on a charge, so at an average 8 miles per hour, the two hour number sounds accurate.
I asked Gary Bridge when I talked to him if they were developing and extra battery pack to be carried, he said yes, and that they were designing the batteries to be quick-change types.
Of course, battery technology can only improve.

[GlideMaster]

As you know the Segway is modular (made up of smaller subsystems).
Most of the systems in the Segway are redundant (motors, batteries, and electrical boards). The NiCd and NiMH battery packs are mounted on the very bottom underneath the base plate which is removed by an allen wrench (a set comes with the Segway, some pretty large.) I believe I could take most of the Segway apart with the allen wrenches supplied and a basic tool set.


quote:Originally posted by Brooster

Good point, Lawrence. Perhaps weskifm can give us some more info on how the battery compartment is accessed?

Brooster

[GlideMaster]

Believe me everyone in the world has suggested extra external batteries. I'm sure they will provide something. Either that or they will have to provide plug in stations instead of gas stations.

quote:Originally posted by Brooster

Good point, Lawrence. Perhaps weskifm can give us some more info on how the battery compartment is accessed?

Brooster

[JGartmann]

I received my first Segway in March. It got rained on when hurricane Isabel missed NJ because we had a rain storm anyway and I could not get to protect it in time. Then it quit working and would not start. Segway sent a tech rep and the rep installed a new base and it worked again. This was under the one year warranty and did not cost me anything but a 2 week wait. Then about 5 days ago when I tried to start it, all I got was a beep and it would not start with the key. I called Segway and Judy sent out a new control shaft assembly but no control grips. I had to remove the grips from the old handle bar including the turn assembly and reinstall them on the new handle bars. It was hard to get the grips off the old handle bar. I installed the new handle bar assembly and it still would not start. It just beeps once when I try to start it. So I call Segway again and they have me do all sorts of things. Finally we switch the batteries from my other Segway to the broken Segway and then the broken Segway is fine and starts, but when I put the batteries from the 1st unit in the 2nd unit, that one only beeps and will not start. So Segway tells me that my battery is shot (at least one is). They tell me that to be safe to order 2 new batteries front and rear so the new batteries are due to arrive tomorrow. The batteries are only warranted for 90 days so I am out 600 bucks plus Fed Ex charges for 2nd day delivery of the batteries. That works out to 75 bucks per month for batteries to keep the the first Segway running. Save your money everyone for new batteries.

By the way, to reset the computer instead of disconnecting the handle bar cords, you can go to start it a few times with the key in a few seconds and that does the same thing that undoing the plugs does. The batteries are 72 volts each so that is why you need an inverter to charge from a 12 volt vehicle. If you get a red light below the plug instead of a green it means you have battery or charger problems. At first the green lights blink while a self test goes on but after 2 minutes or so if you get a red light on the left or right, one of your batteries is shot. I did everything they told me to when I first got the Segway as far as the usage and charging sequence. That did no good as the battery only lasted 8 months anyway. I am not a happy camper. Plus Segway has no way of telling if the batteries were shot except by having me replace them. Had I not had a 2nd Segway handy, they were about to ship out another power base unit. Something is wrong big time with the design if they can't even tell what is going on when you call them. A new base would not have fixed the unit and would have added weeks more delay to get my unit fixed. I still do not know if the built in charger is destroying the battery. That riddle remains to be be solved. Stay tuned.
I am sorry to have to report this bad news to you all.

[wayne]

I'm no battery expert but I'm sure there is someone on this board that is.
Maby they can tell us a way of testing the batteries like we do a regular car battery.

Sorry for your bad luck.
Maby LLC will cut you some slack.

Seg-On
Wayne

[W9GFO]

quote:Originally posted by JGartmann

I still do not know if the built in charger is destroying the battery.


The charger is built into the battery packs. The so called "charger" built into the HT is actually just a power supply. When the batteries request energy from the power supply it turns on, supplying 600mah to each battery.

Rich H

[JGartmann]

Oh, one other thing. Mr. Kilroy at Segway told me that they are finding out that it is better not to leave your Segway continously plugged in to the wall. Only charge it when it needs it, he tells me. This is new news.

[Sal]

Interesting, there have been several very different opinions on the best methods of charging and maintaining battery life of the Segway.

Now that doug Field is a member of SC, maybe he can give us the definitive answer.

-Sal

Think Different
www.apple.com

Answers that Matter
www.lilly.com

[wayne]

I don't think LLC knows.
If they did they would tell us.
We are the test pigeons for the Segway and the more information we send LLC the more information we will get back.
So that is why it is important for us to let LLC know whats going on with our Seg in day to day use.


Seg-On

[beckpm]

quote:Originally posted by JGartmann

Oh, one other thing. Mr. Kilroy at Segway told me that they are finding out that it is better not to leave your Segway continously plugged in to the wall. Only charge it when it needs it, he tells me. This is new news.


Now that is new? I believe it "needs it" when it is down at least one bar - so I would charge it then - also, if you don't charge it I understand that it will loose power over time?

Peter Beck
Arlington, Virginia

[toybuilder]

One thing I'd do is to take the suspect batteries and charge them overnight with the "other" Segway to see if they work again. Also, I recommend taking the "good" batteries away from the suspect powerbase.

It could be that you have a fault in the charging circuit or a bad connection developer or ... something ...




http://www.pasadenasegway.org/

[opti6600]

Those of you familiar with rudimentary electrochemistry know quite well how complex the batteries used even in your car are - lithium-ion and nickel-metal-hydride setups are insanely complex. Add into the setup heat, power draw, the battery construction and flow of the power, the fact that no battery is identical...

Anybody that can guarantee me how a NiMH or a Li-Ion battery will work in a Segway needs a pat on the back, big time - there isn't any definitive way to know at this point. You can't monitor cell-by-cell (although with that sort of control, range could be extended assuming the control electronics themselves don't kill off power), and predicting behavior is near impossible. For now we have the data that fellow members of the community have, as well as what LLC can throw in our direction - I'm frankly very grateful to Segway for offering this much research into the batteries inside our HTs.

That said, I'm seeing drastic differences in battery performance by temperature. For this week and probably the next few, Miami has 50-60F weather in the mornings, and 80-90F weather in the afternoon. I get to school with 3.5 bars of battery, and with rest 4. I get home in the afternoon with 1 bar of battery, and with rest 1.5. Even with speed differences considered - you can see the drastic difference temperture has of the HT's batteries!

What I think would be cool though...is if they sold some variant of the CS they used at SegFest for energy analysis to let us hone our commutes. Even renting them from dealers could be an option - but it's one I think a lot of us would find useful.

-Jordan

[SegwayUtah]

As far as "charge it when it needs it" goes, this is what I understand:

Plugging the Segway in for 30 minutes every time you stop somewhere is probably bad on the batteries. If you don't go more than a full charge in a day, it's probably best to just charge it at night. If you do go farther than a full charge in a day (like me), it's best to at least let the machine cool for a while. A few hours of cooling is best, but even a 15 minute-cooldown is a big plus.

Unplugging the Segway for 15 seconds so it "resets" the charger and then plugging it right back in is probably a _very bad_ thing; we learned this at SegFesT 2003.

Chris

[jrmiller]

Greetings one and all, ....I charge my batteries whenever I get back to the house, no matter what stage of charge and leave it plugged-in until it is used again. In August I spent a day at Universal Studios in Orlando FL for my daughters 16 birthday. I got about 8.5 to 9 hours out of my HT with a third of the power bars still showing. Maybe I just got lucky but it seems that it was longer than most. I did not have any fast stops or starts nor any high speed bouts. All the traveling was at slow to moderate speeds only shutting it down for a ride or to eat (more eating than riding). My HT is about 7 mo old. Am I the lucky one or are others getting the same amount of time from their battereies? SEG-ON SEG-RIGHT JR

[Freddy]

JR I use and charge my HT just like you do
I took the HT to the Dayton Air Show in August and had it on all day and gave hundreds of demo rides (the whole day on Black key)
Started it at 8am , shut it down 7 pm with 3 bars left
At my shop it is run pretty hard and hilly during the day and I use up alot of more battery . I think being slow and easy gets a better range just like they said at Segfest.
Freddy

[JGartmann]

------------------------------------------------------------------------&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;One thing I'd do is to take the suspect batteries and charge them overnight with the "other" Segway to see if they work again. Also, I recommend taking the "good" batteries away from the suspect powerbase.
It could be that you have a fault in the charging circuit or a bad connection developer or ... something ...&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;


I currently have the suspect batteries installed in the "good" Segway and 24 hours later the "good" Segway still will not start. The bad Segway is starting and operating fine with the switched batteries. And yes, Mr. Kilroy at Segway told me to not plug the Segway in when I get to my destination until the batteries have a chance to cool. At least 15 minutes cool down, he suggested. But I never thought I ran the Segways that hard. From now on after a run I will check the batteries temperature with the palm of my hand after I return and see if the batteries are hot.

Tomorrow I will install the new batteries and I will try a voltmeter on both the bad batteries terminals and see if I get any readings. I will let you know. Mr Kilroy suggested that one of my batteries could have gone bad some time ago and the Segway was running on the good battery. That is why he suggested that I now replace both batteries, as a new battery installed with a heavily used still good battery will cause the Segway to limit its performance to the worst battery, for safety reasons. if that makes any sense to you. I have trouble understanding that logic.

I leave for FL on Sunday by car and want to take both Segways, so I hope I get both units running. I will take my laptop but some motels have lousy phone lines making connecting here difficult. I built a coffin that holds one Segway and it attaches to my car using the class 3 trailer hitch. The end door folds down and becomes a ramp when I unlock the door. I mounted the car license plate on the back of the white coffin with a light over it and mounted LED tail lights and turn signal lights on the rear of the box. The brake light in the rear window of the car is still visible over the coffin. I also mounted an inverter in the coffin to charge the HT, but I had to install a number 8 wire directly from the car battery through a 40 amp circuit breaker to the inverter in the coffin to get the 400 watt inverter to operate. The coffin has no wheels touching the ground, so I don't get hit with extra tolls as I would if I towed a trailer. I have never charged the Segway with the inverter yet. I just tested it to make sure it would work for the impending trip so I can't blame the inverter for wrecking my battery.. I have lots of questions and few answers. No, Segway did not offer me a dime off the new batteries. At least car batteries are prorated. Segway batteries are not prorated. If they quit in 91 days, you are just plain out of luck..

Oh well worse things could happen. I still enjoy my Segways.

[JGartmann]

The two new batteries arrived and I installed them in the Segway that would not start and it starts up fine and indicates full charge. I measured the voltage on the two batteries I removed. One battery has 40 volts on the left two large terminals and 40 volts on the right two large terminals so this battery is still good. I confirmed this by trying the Segway with one new battery and this 40 volt battery and it started up fine and showed full charge. The second battery I removed showed 11 volts on the left side and 0 volts on the right side so this battery is bad. I hope this ends this saga for me.

[beckpm]

John,
Since one of the batteries is ok are you going to return one of the new ones to LLC (would they take it back?) or are you going to follow the advice from their website that says to always replace both batteries? That is the $300 question?

Peter Beck
Arlington, Virginia

[W9GFO]

John, if you have no use for that bad battery, I would like to buy it. I can harvest the good cells from it for RC use.

Rich

[JGartmann]

Peter. I am going to keep both new batteries.Segway sent me 3 typewritten pages of battery instructions. I wish I could post everything. I will post page one now.

Initial Battery Conditioning: Charge batteries for at least 12 hours as soon as possible. Limit the duration of your first 5 uses (is 5 new, I thought it was 3) so that you do not see fewer than 3 bars in the display. After each of the 5 uses, charge the batteries for at least 8 hours. When these first 5 charge cycles are complete, you may ride the Segway HT to any charge level before recharging.

If you do not intend to to immediately install these new batteries in your Segway HT, you must charge them for at least 12 hours as soon as possible after you recievd them and for at least 12 hours once every month until you install them . Otherwise, the batteries could fully discharge over time, causing permanent damage.

Charging Indicators

The Control Shaft Base has two light emitting diode (LED) charging indicators located below the Charging Port. These Charging Indicators show wether the battery packs are charging and at what rate.

The left Charging Indicator corresponds to the front battery pack, the right to the rear battery pack. They are marked with an "F" and "R", respectively. The Charging Indicators provide independent information regarding the charging state of each battery pack. Any time the LED green light is on, that battery is receiving a pulse of electric current. Slow pulse rates indicate slow charging rates, faster rates indicate faster charging, and solid green indicates the fastest charge rate.

End of page 1.

[Sunday]

All of this talk about Segway coffins and "harvesting" dead batteries, is really starting to creep me out:)


Sunday

Segway-more fun than you can stand!

[JGartmann]

Page 2

There are 4 stages in the charging process.

1. Immediately after the Segway HT is plugged in, the batery packs perform a test to determine if it is appropriate to charge at the maximum charge rate. While this test is occurring, the battery packs charge slowly at a trickle rate. The Charging Indicator pulses green every few seconds, giving the battery short pulses of electric current.

2 After about 2 minutes (longer if the battery packs are very warm, cold, or completely discharged), the battery packs will begin charging at the fast rate with the Charging Indicator glowing solid green.

3. The battery pack electronics will monitor the battery pack voltage and temperature to determine when it is full and will then start pulsing at a rapid rate. This rapid pulsing rate will continue for approximately 3 hours while a cell balancing proces is completed to distribute the energy throughout all the cells in both battery packs.

4 At the end of the cell balancing process, the pulse rate will become slow and will continue at the slow rate until the Segway HT is unplugged.

Next a chart with the below information

CHARGING INDICATOR BATTERY STATE


Initial Slow Pulse Initial test to assess battery pack status and amount of charge needed

Solid LED "fast" charge, when the majority of the charging takes place.

Fast Pulse cell balancing process, during which the cells are topped off eaually

Slow Pulse trickle charge to keep battery packs fully charged.




Before each ride, remember to close the charge port cover

Keep the charge port cover closed except when you are charging the Segway HT, Closing the charge port cover will prevent water, dirt, dust, or other contaminates from entering the charge port and causing damage to your Segway HT.

end of page 2.

[JGartmann]

Rich.

Would you give me 25 bucks for the bad battery plus UPS shipping charges? At least that would cover my 2nd day fed ex charges to get me the the 2 new batteries.

[W9GFO]

quote:Originally posted by JGartmann

Rich.

Would you give me 25 bucks for the bad battery plus UPS shipping charges? At least that would cover my 2nd day fed ex charges to get me the the 2 new batteries.


That sounds good to me.

Contact me (mailto:rich@modelstation.com) offline to work out the details.

Thanks,

Rich H

[JGartmann]

Page 3 Final page.

Battery Charge Level

Surface Charge

Whenever you do not fully charge the battery packs there is a possibility of surface charge affecting the battery charge level indicator. This could cause the indicator to falsely show a greater charge level. After you power on your Segway HT, check the battery charge level indicator, ride for at least 3 or 4 minutes, and then check the battery charge level indicator again. If the battery charge level indicator shows rapid charge depletion during the 3 or 4 minutes, then you should conclude that the battery packs had only a "surface charge." When this happens plug the Segway HT back in and recharge.

Charging Failures

If a failure is detected during charging, all charging will stop. Depending on the nature of the failure, a solid red charging indicator LED will be displayed or the Charging Indicator will be off.

If either or both Charging Indicators are off or red:

1. If the Charging Indicators are off (showing no illumination), check to make sure that AC power is present.

2. If AC power is present and the Charging Indicators are either red or off, remove and reseat the battery pack(s) following the procedure described elsewhere. (That was in the how to install the batteries which I am not typing for you, as you all know that.)

3. If this does not resolve the problem, contact Segway Customer Operations at 866.4SEGWAY (866.473.4929) or via our website at www.segway.com/support/contact-us.html.

Battery Pack Temperature Parameters

The battery packs will generally be significantly warmer than the air temperature due to heating that occurs as electricity passes through them.

If the battery pack temperature is below approximately 32 degrees F (0 degrees C) or above approximately 104 degrees F (140 degrees C), the battery packs will not fast charge. The Charging Indicator will continue to pulse slowly, indicating a slow or trickle charge, until the battery temperature stabilizes within the 32 degree F to 104 degree F range. Once stabilized within this range, the fast charge will begin and the Charging Indicator will become solid green.

If the Charging Indicators remain blinking throughout the entire time that the Segway HT is plugged in, then the battery packs have trickle charged the entire time. This will provide only a small amount of energy into the battery packs.

If you are concerned that the battery packs may be too cold or overheated:

1. Check the Charging Indicators to make sure they show solid green, indicating fast charge, within 15 minutes after the Power Cord is plugged in.

2. If the Charging Indicators do not show solid green within 15 minutes after the Segway HT is plugged in, then move the Segway HT to a location within the proper temperature range of 32F to 104F.

3. After the battery packs are within the proper temperature range, reconnect the Power Cord.

If the Charging Indicators still do not show solid green within 15 minutes, contact Segway.

En d of page 3, final page.

Morbid? Discouraging? I guess so. But I do like my coffin for moving my Seg about with the car. Remember, this is new technology and we are the test rats running with the Segs for the designers.

[JGartmann]

I see a note on another page that came with the new batteries. Here it is:

Do not mix battery types. The Segway HT uses 2 NiCd or 2 NiMH battery packs. The Segtway HT operates at the performance level allowed by the lesser battery. Whenever you replace a battery pack, you should consider replacing both battery packs.

[JGartmann]

The more thought.

Now I have a good battery and no use for it. I will sell it for 150 bucks with a 90 day return full refund policy if anyone needs a battery and doesn't want to drop 300 for one or 600 for two like I did. Maybe my good battery would be a good match for your good battery if one of yours goes bad. Keep me in mind

[beckpm]

John,
Thanks for taking the time to type all that info in for us.

Peter Beck
Arlington, Virginia