fools on segways

[polo_pro]

Looks like our friends from across the pond have been busy! Check out the spill just after the 2 min mark in the video. Have any of you seen an i2 act this erratically?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pihHpQstKfw

ps - The poster had 6 other videos, but they were mainly of segways being used at events in Germany. One video shows an adapted bike trailer being towed behind the segway!

[quade]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pihHpQstKfw
!

Holy crap! I thought these things were perfectly safe in any and all circumstances! They never go out of control whenever they catch an edge on something and they can't do any substantial damage at all. They'd certainly never be able to do anything like punch a hole in a wall or anything as forceful as that.

Gee . . . I wonder where I ever got the idea that Segways could be dangerous?

BTW, Steve, to answer your question. Yes, I've seen an i2 exhibit that behavior and more by people that over correct errors. The compilation only scratches the surface of modes the device can get into. For instance, they really didn't show the one I like best; the uneven curb cut, which has taken me down twice so far. I'm now FAR more leery and watchful for it. I personally think it's a flaw of the lean-steer design.

Not that I can even vaguely attempt to justify the baby controlling the Segway, but did you see how fast the device spun around when it caught one tire on a small bush? The device wasn't even going all the fast at that point either.

But then again . . . I obviously know nothing about it since they are perfectly safe in all conditions.

[macgeek]

And broken cookies have no calories!

I have always said, for every fool proof device there is a smarter fool.


Jonathan

[quade]

I have always said, for every fool proof device there is a smarter fool.


The thing is . . . not everything shown in the video is of a "fool" operating the device. Some inexperienced riders perhaps, but a lot of what is in the video is the device operating exactly as designed, just with an inexperienced rider at the controls.

[hellphish]

Looks like our friends from across the pond have been busy! Check out the spill just after the 2 min mark in the video. Have any of you seen an i2 act this erratically?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pihHpQstKfw

ps - The poster had 6 other videos, but they were mainly of segways being used at events in Germany. One video shows an adapted bike trailer being towed behind the segway!

I've seen an i2 do it, and I've also seen an XT do it. What I think is happening is that only one wheel is touching the ground while the platform angle is far from level. The segway accelerates hard with only one wheel on the ground, causing it to twist pretty quickly. That compilation video was great, but it didn't show that XT crash. I'll dig it up.

EDIT: here it is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqCFZQ25Zsk

[nickyboy]

Looking at some of the other "incidents" I think many of us can recall similar incidents. How many times have we looked back (usually after picking ourselves up off the floor!) and said "I really must remember, next time, just LET GO" In my experiance, trying to recover the situation often compounds it.

[PeteInLongBeach]

For instance, they really didn't show the one I like best; the uneven curb cut, which has taken me down twice so far. I'm now FAR more leery and watchful for it. I personally think it's a flaw of the lean-steer design.

I've glided through every curb cut imaginable on my i2 with no problems, and can't figure out what you're referring to. The leansteer makes curb cuts (or any other surface irregularity) much more manageable than the gen1 design.

I also gotta say that I was inexperienced a couple years ago too, but never even came close to some of the falls & situations shown in the video. Other than paying attention to the safety video and operator instructions, what have I been doing wrong?

[quade]

I've glided through every curb cut imaginable on my i2 with no problems, and can't figure out what you're referring to.

Hehe . . . I gotta take you on a tour of Santa Ana and Tustin.


The leansteer makes curb cuts (or any other surface irregularity) much more manageable than the gen1 design.


I have little (only a couple of minutes) experience on a Gen 1 machine, so I can't speak to it being more manageable. However, I do believe that the concept of the LeanSteer has a flaw when it comes to traversing certain curb cuts. Some curb cuts can be particularly deceptive in how they're angled and how people might be used to traversing them on other two-wheeled vehicles. Yes, if you slow down to a near crawl, just about any can be traversed. That's not the issue. The issue is attempting to traverse them at higher speeds and how that might set up an instability due to the LeanSteer design.

[bentbiker]

I have little (only a couple of minutes) experience on a Gen 1 machine, so I can't speak to it being more manageable. However, I do believe that the concept of the LeanSteer has a flaw when it comes to traversing certain curb cuts. Some curb cuts can be particularly deceptive in how they're angled and how people might be used to traversing them on other two-wheeled vehicles. Yes, if you slow down to a near crawl, just about any can be traversed. That's not the issue. The issue is attempting to traverse them at higher speeds and how that might set up an instability due to the LeanSteer design.
I wonder if something could be wrong with your base. That is, err, your Segway's base. Like Pete, I am impressed at how well mine handles curb cuts at 8-10 mph. As long as I maintain the same angle on the LSF with respect to gravity as I had before the cut, it immediately senses that the angle of the LSF to the platform is only because of the equal angle of the platform with respect to level, and provides no added steering input. Like magic.

[hellphish]

Can you be more specific about the "flaw" in the LeanSteer design? It seems to do exactly what it is supposed to do, when operated properly. You ARE operating it properly right? :)

Hehe . . . I gotta take you on a tour of Santa Ana and Tustin.



I have little (only a couple of minutes) experience on a Gen 1 machine, so I can't speak to it being more manageable. However, I do believe that the concept of the LeanSteer has a flaw when it comes to traversing certain curb cuts. Some curb cuts can be particularly deceptive in how they're angled and how people might be used to traversing them on other two-wheeled vehicles. Yes, if you slow down to a near crawl, just about any can be traversed. That's not the issue. The issue is attempting to traverse them at higher speeds and how that might set up an instability due to the LeanSteer design.

[quade]

I wonder if something could be wrong with your base. That is, err, your Segway's base.

I have a near 100% confidence the unit is operating as designed.

That said, I don't think the designers either imagined or took in account 100% of all curb cuts that exist in the "real world".

The issue that I believe exists is when the sidewalk is high enough, the ramp is steep enough, the road is crowned enough and the unit rolls on the roll axis enough that it sets up a brief yaw oscillation. I am nearly 100% convinced that at the right speeds the device is simply given enough conflicting information and tries to over correct for one thing just slightly after the next that it is enough to throw the rider. My belief is that the LSF is actually the culprit here and that if the device was not getting the "back and forth" information provided from it the condition wouldn't exist.

This exact same curb cut would be trivial for a bicycle to negotiate.

If you'd like to test it out, I've included one that I now know can be a problem and it's a fairly repeatable test too!

[hellphish]

I have a near 100% confidence the unit is operating as designed.
It seems you think it was designed to tackle any obstacle you can throw at it. It isn't.

That said, I don't think the designers either imagined or took in account 100% of all curb cuts that exist in the "real world".
No, you're right. They only took into account 100% of some curb cuts, not all of them.

The issue that I believe exists is when the sidewalk is high enough, the ramp is steep enough, the road is crowned enough and the unit rolls on the roll axis enough that it sets up a brief yaw oscillation. I am nearly 100% convinced that at the right speeds the device is simply given enough conflicting information and tries to over correct for one thing just slightly after the next that it is enough to throw the rider. My belief is that the LSF is actually the culprit here and that if the device was not getting the "back and forth" information provided from it the condition wouldn't exist.
Ok, stop right here. Quade, you're doin' it wrong! First of all, you need to slow down. The LeanSteer system isn't designed to let you hit all bumps at whichever angle and speed you please. It is designed to turn the machine and to take into account variations in terrain. A side effect is that it lets the tires stay on the ground more often than on a gen1 machine. Second, you need to keep the LeanSteer assembly parallel to your body. If you are doing this properly, there isn't any turning information applied and thus zero yaw. You say you hit a curb cut with a steep ramp at near full speed, I'm not surprised you flew off either. Slow down and watch your safety DVD again.

This exact same curb cut would be trivial for a bicycle to negotiate.
Irrelevant. A freaking set of stairs is trivial for a mountain bike to ACSEND. All you are saying is that a bike is different than a Segway. Thanks, Sherlock. Strange that you imply they should have the same abilities. I can ride a wheelie on my bike for about 200 feet. I can't ride on one wheel on my segway for more than a few feet, because holy crap, they are different devices.

If you'd like to test it out, I've included one that I now know can be a problem and it's a fairly repeatable test too!

You don't need to zip a .kmz file. KMZ is already a zipped .kml file, and by zipping it again you are making the file bigger because of the extra overhead of the ZIP format, and you are potentially exposing the userbase to viruses. Cut it out. Just attach the .KMZ.

[quade]

You don't need to zip a .kmz file. KMZ is already a zipped .kml file, and by zipping it again you are making the file bigger because of the extra overhead of the ZIP format, and you are potentially exposing the userbase to viruses. Cut it out. Just attach the .KMZ.

For whatever reason . . . Segway Chat won't let me attach a .kmz file to a post. It says the file type is not allowed. Maybe you can show me how it's done?

See attachment to see what I see as far as file types go. Nowhere in the list does it have .kmz as an acceptable file type nor does it appear to ever want to let me upload one.

[quade]

The LeanSteer system isn't designed to let you hit all bumps at whichever angle and speed you please. It is designed to turn the machine and to take into account variations in terrain.
(bolding mine for emphasis)

Yes. I also maintain that is part of the problem.

[Eric Payne]

Quade...

Why do you have a Segway, since you apparently dislike them so much? In all your postings, recently, it seems to be negative toward either the disabled using Segways in crowded area, since the Segway isn't to be trusted... or your Segway doesn't do/isn't performing in some situation exactly how you want it to do/perform.

[quade]

Quade...

Why do you have a Segway, since you apparently dislike them so much?

Obviously because I fit into one of the two groups I previously mentioned . . . perhaps with a bit of overlap between the sets. :)



In all your postings, recently, it seems to be negative toward either the disabled using Segways in crowded area, since the Segway isn't to be trusted...

Ever see "The Point (http://imdb.com/title/tt0067595/)"? In it there is a character that makes a fairly wise observation, "You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear." YOU have taken the position that I am against yours. Because of that, YOU see in my posts only the things YOU think are negative or against it. I can't really help that except to point out that you're simply wrong. I have recent posts about; a get together this weekend in OC, a question about the absolute duration of the device while in idle and another talking about a distance record.



or your Segway doesn't do/isn't performing in some situation exactly how you want it to do/perform.
My Segway performs exactly the way it was designed. Nothing more, nothing less. I've observed and have written about one particular thing that I believe is a design flaw; the way the LSF gives inputs to the system in certain ways that can cause it to go into yaw oscillation. That doesn't stop me from enjoying the device. Nor is this a zero sum game or in black and white. I can like the device except for a few idiosyncratic items. I can be against the device in certain situations and still appreciate the fact that you are simply trying to get along with life. I don't hate you because you're trying to use it. I wish you could separate your hate from me simply because I'm trying to point out why I don't think that's a good idea in every situation.

[hellphish]

Ur doin it wrong.

Please take some danged pictures of the curb cut in question, from as many angles as you can. Until then, everyone can safely assume you just don't know what you are doing when you're on the platform.

[bentbiker]

The issue that I believe exists is when the sidewalk is high enough, the ramp is steep enough, the road is crowned enough and the unit rolls on the roll axis enough that it sets up a brief yaw oscillation. I am nearly 100% convinced that at the right speeds the device is simply given enough conflicting information and tries to over correct for one thing just slightly after the next that it is enough to throw the rider. My belief is that the LSF is actually the culprit here and that if the device was not getting the "back and forth" information provided from it the condition wouldn't exist.

This exact same curb cut would be trivial for a bicycle to negotiate.

If you'd like to test it out, I've included one that I now know can be a problem and it's a fairly repeatable test too!I was misunderstanding the challenge. I thought your concern was while traversing a sidewalk mid-block with curb cuts for driveways, so that the wheel closer to the road would drop more than the wheel farthest from the road. Your example is actually going down a ramp while turning first right and then left and then abruptly rising once in the street because of the crown. I can't say I take those at 10 mph; whenever street entry is involved, I admit I usually slow significantly.

Judge, I withdraw my objection and request a continuance to allow evaluation of the new evidence.

[PeteInLongBeach]

I wonder if something could be wrong with your base. That is, err, your Segway's base. Like Pete, I am impressed at how well mine handles curb cuts at 8-10 mph. As long as I maintain the same angle on the LSF with respect to gravity as I had before the cut, it immediately senses that the angle of the LSF to the platform is only because of the equal angle of the platform with respect to level, and provides no added steering input. Like magic.

John's post exactly echos my experience with lean steer. I've gone through transitions with the i2 that would have thrown me off the i180. It is as close to magic as machines get.

[PeteInLongBeach]

Hehe . . . I gotta take you on a tour of Santa Ana and Tustin.

I used to live in Santa Ana. I just came back from a long weekend with the i2 in San Diego. I took a long glide through North Park on Saturday night to see friends, going over buckled sidewalks and sketchy curb cuts that made Santa Ana look like Beverly Hills by comparison. Not a single moment of bad behavior or instability from the i2. It was one of the more memorable and satisfying glides I've had in a while, as I felt it really proved the merit of the lean steer design.

I really don't understand what you're referring to....

[Desert_Seg]

...My belief is that the LSF is actually the culprit here and that if the device was not getting the "back and forth" information provided from it the condition wouldn't exist...

Now wait a second. If I were to wait long enough, and through enough variables at it, I can make ANYTHING fail.

That being said, your scenario sounds a bit strange to me. Why would the LSF oscillate if you have full control over it AND the Segway? Sounds to me as if you didn't.

BTW, the only time I've had a problem with the LSF was when I tried to get on a Segway that didn't have the LSF tightened down completely. Now that was an experience I do not want to try again.

Steven

[PeteInLongBeach]

I have a near 100% confidence the unit is operating as designed.

That said, I don't think the designers either imagined or took in account 100% of all curb cuts that exist in the "real world".

The issue that I believe exists is when the sidewalk is high enough, the ramp is steep enough, the road is crowned enough and the unit rolls on the roll axis enough that it sets up a brief yaw oscillation. I am nearly 100% convinced that at the right speeds the device is simply given enough conflicting information and tries to over correct for one thing just slightly after the next that it is enough to throw the rider. My belief is that the LSF is actually the culprit here and that if the device was not getting the "back and forth" information provided from it the condition wouldn't exist.

This exact same curb cut would be trivial for a bicycle to negotiate.

If you'd like to test it out, I've included one that I now know can be a problem and it's a fairly repeatable test too!

Well, I can't open whatever file this is, so cannot see whatever area is being referred to. All I know is I keep my knees bent, keep the LSF aligned with my body, let the base move where the ground takes it, and all is well. Kind of like skiing, sort of. Have you ever been skiing quade?

[SEGsby]

Segways are like guns. Not everyone should have one.

;)

SEGsby

[quade]

All I know is I keep my knees bent, keep the LSF aligned with my body, let the base move where the ground takes it, and all is well.

Pity you weren't able to join us today for the Newport Back Bay ride.

I could have explained myself and the issue far better in person than I ever could over these threads. We even passed by some curb cuts, that I believe, had some potential.

[PeteInLongBeach]

Even if I hadn't had to work today, the i2 wouldn't have been attending.... wouldn't start this afternoon and showing E014.

[SEGsby]

Oh, that sucks. :(

SEGsby

Even if I hadn't had to work today, the i2 wouldn't have been attending.... wouldn't start this afternoon and showing E014.

[Cube128]

I showed this video to some of the guys in my fraternity, most of whom have ridden my Segway around our basement and done something stupid from the video, they thought it was hysterical.