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I suggest that this thread might be used to gather and discuss tesing data on the Segway.
quote:Segway Human Transporter Test
Questions and Answers
Beginning in October 2002, Seattle Public Utilities (SPU) meter readers are participating in a test of the SegwayTM Human Transporter (HT). As part of a larger Citywide evaluation of the Segway, the Fleets and Facilities Department’s goal is to learn if, how and/or where this new technology can increase efficiency, productivity, and/or improve customer service. The city purchased 10 Segway HTs and will spend the next 18 to 24 months conducting a series of tests in various environments. This limited investment allows the city to explore ways of diversifying its fleet of vehicles. At the conclusion of the tests, the Fleets and Facilities Department will be able to determine which city applications are best suited for the Segway HT.
http://www.cityofseattle.net/fleets/segwayfaq.htm
quote:During the SPU test, meter readers fill out daily use logs to keep track of information on route completion times, the ability to read every meter on the first attempt, and how many times the batteries are changed during the route. They also track if they feel less physically tired at the completion of their routes, the comfort of riding the Segway in various weather conditions, and how citizens respond to their approach. Part of the evaluation will look at the potential for minimizing the use of vehicles on some routes.
Sounds like rather throgough testing. By the time the USPS, police etc. finish tesing the Segways, they will be among the most tested vehicles around!
JohnM
10-10-2002, 03:10 PM
quote:Originally posted by Lawrence
Sounds like rather throgough testing. By the time the USPS, police etc. finish tesing the Segways, they will be among the most tested vehicles around!
And if Segway LLC is lucky, the testers may actually find a suitable, cost effective, application or two.
quote:And if Segway LLC is lucky, the testers may actually find a suitable, cost effective, application or two.
What are your reasons for being so pessimistic John? U may have stated them earlier, but how about a summary?
JohnM
10-11-2002, 01:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by Lawrence
What are your reasons for being so pessimistic John? U may have stated them earlier, but how about a summary?
Not pessimistic, skeptical.
First, the Segway is a neat piece of engineering. Just this morning, I am sitting on my bike at an intersection (Commercial and Granite Streets) about a quarter mile south of DEKA/Segway waiting for a break in traffic. I'm on the rightmost edge of the street, my right foot resting on the curb, looking at the cross traffic coming from my left. Out of the corner of my eye I see a blur of movement coming from the right. Startled, I spin my head to the right as a Segway makes the turn on the sidewalk next to me, passing within inches of my outstretched foot. The quietness and fluidity of movement are amazing. There's nothing like. Cool, I think.
So, my break comes and I push off, turning right onto the Granite Street bridge. Traffic is slow and heavy, a mix of cars and trucks. There are three closely spaced intersections on the opposite end of the bridge and everyone is jockying for position. I have to make a left turn at the third intersection. I'm close to the curb and quickly accelerate to match the speed of the surrounding vehicles. Signaling my intent to move into the flow of traffic, I glance over my left shoulder and make eye contact with the driver behind me. She sees me and lets me merge into traffic. Now I'm running with the big dogs! I reach the first intersection, its green. The car on my left and the truck ahead of him both start to merge into my lane. (The truck uses his signals, the car doesn't.) I ease up, let the car slide towards the rightmost lane while I signal that I am moving left into the center (through) lane. Another quick glance to the rear, a burst of acceleration and we have swapped positions as we arrive at the second intersection, also green. Now another hand signal for a left turn and I ease into the left turn lane. The car that was in front of me in the through lane makes a quick, unsignaled move into the left turn lane, cutting me off. But I'm ready and ease up , moving just far enough from the center of the lane so that I not going to get nailed from behind. The third light is red and all traffic comes to a stop. I'm sitting in the center of the left turn lane, the inner most of the three lanes, third in line. The light goes green, everyone starts off slowly. I move a bit to the right before begining my turn and take the left turn very wide, allowing the cars behind me to pass safely on my left. I finish the turn onto Second Street on the rightmost edge of the road.
I played everything by the book,'Pennsylvania Bicycle Driver's Manual ' http://www.dot.state.pa.us/Internet/hwyIntHS.nsf/infoBikeManual , legal and safe, the same way I've done it a thousand times over the past eight years. Here's a quote from the Penn DOT manual:
quote:
The most important factor in how you ride your bike is how your feel about it. If you find bicycling enjoyable and reasonably safe, then you'll want to cover greater distances and go more places. but to do so, you usually have to ride in the company of cars -- and sharing the road with cars calls for an attitude of security and confidence. Once you have that attitude, you can safely and enjoyably take on a commute to work in city traffic or a long day's tour on almost any kind of road. Almost anyone can become a confident, streetwise cyclist.
Run with the big dogs, yeah.
Here's another viewpoint:
quote:
A bike is too slow and light to mix with trucks in the street
That's from Dean Kamen, Time Magazine, Dec 2, 2001. http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,186660,00.html
Kamen is a whiz-bang inventor. I admire his work with FIRST. His scooter is amazing, but he is either:
1. Ignorant regarding the safety of bicycles (and perhaps safety in general).
2. Full of hot-air and hype.
3. Lacking in 'security and confidence'.
I've been skeptical of him ever since reading that.
Pessimistic? No. Segway will find its niche. Kamen will get richer. Manchester will get new jobs. People riding Segways means fewer cars on the street and thats fine by me. So I'll smile and wave at pokey Segway riders as I zip past them, going faster, further, healthier, using fewer natural resources and burning pb&j for fuel.
ps
If anyone needs to learn bike safety in comic book style, try the Consumer Product Safety Commision. Its a lot of the same info in the Penn DOT guide, but written for kids. http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/341.pdf
I wonder if the CPSC will publish a Segway safety guide?
quote:Pessimistic? No. Segway will find its niche. Kamen will get richer. Manchester will get new jobs. People riding Segways means fewer cars on the street and thats fine by me. So I'll smile and wave at pokey Segway riders as I zip past them, going faster, further, healthier, using fewer natural resources and burning pb&j for fuel.
Nitche or nitches John? U dont think Segway will make it in the consumer market? The bike has been around for a long long time. It is a great invention and has a lot of uses. But still, even people in the developing world want to motorize them and thereby add to air and noise pollution. The Segway has been around for less than a year. It is a new technology. It will evolve. Sure u will zip past a Segway set to 12 mph. maybe even one set to 17 mph. if u are not going uphill and are in good shape. What do u envision Segway might be like 5 years from now John?
quote:Kamen is a whiz-bang inventor. I admire his work with FIRST. His scooter is amazing, but he is either:
1. Ignorant regarding the safety of bicycles (and perhaps safety in general).
2. Full of hot-air and hype.
3. Lacking in 'security and confidence'.
Cant be denied that Kamen makes some bold statements. But he is not full of hot air. He has a lot of achievements and has earned the respect of some very capable people.
No confidence u say? He is staking many years of effort and millions of his own dollars on Segway. There are a lot of sceptics, yet Kamen believes that Segway will succeed. I would say that is a sign of self confidence. He could have gotten ritcher by sticking with niche markets. But he has bigger ambitions and visions. He may fail, but if he does he deserves admiration for trying. When judging Kamen's efforts try looking at the Segway project from his perspective. Try looking 5 years ahead John. If Segway survives that long, how do u envision its evolutionary path?
JohnM
10-11-2002, 11:40 PM
quote:Originally posted by Lawrence
Nitche or nitches John? U dont think Segway will make it in the consumer market? The bike has been around for a long long time. It is a great invention and has a lot of uses. But still, even people in the developing world want to motorize them and thereby add to air and noise pollution. The Segway has been around for less than a year. It is a new technology. It will evolve. Sure u will zip past a Segway set to 12 mph. maybe even one set to 17 mph. if u are not going uphill and are in good shape. What do u envision Segway might be like 5 years from now John?
Neither. But maybe niche or niches. They're out there somewhere. None of the first round of testers seem to be eager to place large orders. No one seems to know what to do with it. Someone will figure it out and there will be enough business to make plenty of people rich.
The Segway consumer market? Twenty five percent of US adults are obese. The potential market is, well, huge. No one will ever go broke catering to fat, lazy people.
Bikes have been around for a long time because they are a good idea. They are cheap, efficient, fun, low maintenance transportation. 100 million were sold in the year 2000. Without motors. The US market for commuter bikes is expanding, http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/10/business/10BIKE.html .
Dean Kamen has invented a 2 wheeled device that is so inherently unstable that it requires multiple gyros and computers to keep its passenger upright. Nearly 200 years ago, Baron Von Drais invented an inherently unstable 2 wheeled device that tapped into the passengers innate sense of balance. No gyros, computers or batteries are needed. You just think balanced and you are balanced. Who's the more clever inventor? I vote for simple elegance. Five years from now the bicycle will still be a more elegant solution.
quote:
Cant be denied that Kamen makes some bold statements. But he is not full of hot air. He has a lot of achievements and has earned the respect of some very capable people.
No confidence u say? He is staking many years of effort and millions of his own dollars on Segway. There are a lot of sceptics, yet Kamen believes that Segway will succeed. I would say that is a sign of self confidence. He could have gotten ritcher by sticking with niche markets. But he has bigger ambitions and visions. He may fail, but if he does he deserves admiration for trying. When judging Kamen's efforts try looking at the Segway project from his perspective. Try looking 5 years ahead John. If Segway survives that long, how do u envision its evolutionary path?
His quote is still out there.
quote:
A bike is too slow and light to mix with trucks in the street
It says that what I do is not do-able. Its like the bashers saying Segway is too fast and heavy to mix with pedestrians on the sidewalk. It's BS. Does a confident person need BS to succeed? The man is capable of great things, but he is also capable of BS when it suits his purpose. Five years from now it will still be BS. Segway will survive on the honest presentation of its merits. Hype and BS could kill it.
I am really enjoying this discusson John. U are more sceptical to Segway than I, but u argue well for your point of veiws and u are able to see both positives and negatives with Segway!
John writes:
quote:...It says that what I do is not do-able. Its like the bashers saying Segway is too fast and heavy to mix with pedestrians on the sidewalk. It's BS...
U are able to mix with cars and trucks in traffic but a lot of people are not or dare not or simply dont want to. I dont recall the statistics about how many cyclists get hurt or injured on the streets. Maybe u can help us out on that. I suspect that it would be safer for most people to ride Segways on sidewalks and paths than in traffic. That is my interpretation of Kamen's statement.
quote: Does a confident person need BS to succeed? The man is capable of great things, but he is also capable of BS when it suits his purpose...
I wonder if u are judging Kamen by different standards than u judge the business community and people in general? Look at all the advertizing. Make a small change in your product and it is advertized as "revolutionary." That is the world we live in. Even so, Kamen believes that Segways can have a big social impact. He has all right to be optimistic about his product. It remains to be seen as to whether the hyping that he has done will help or hurt the success of Segway.
quote:...Five years from now it will still be BS. Segway will survive on the honest presentation of its merits. Hype and BS could kill it.
Kamen is not selling people a cat in a sack. He has thorough testing being done. People are given hands on experience. Yes Segway will stand or fall on its merits. But again, these days, when even a brand of toilet paper is described in terms of revolutionary, hype is needed to get people's attention.
So u dont think Segways will evolve significantly? I think they will. I think they will be a lot cheaper, ligher, more versatile. I think they will have better batteries and run on stirlings increasing power and range. I think they will be computers on wheels with more robotic characteristics and I think that will increase their functionality.
I also think that, a lot of uses will be found for Segways by those testing them. Correct me if I am wrong, but my impression is that much of the testing being done is in the early phases.
Initually, Segways may be considered more as a novelty item and a recreational toy for many consumers, but that was also the case with the first PC's. I choose to remain optimistic and believe that Kamen, his investors, employees, and many of the people who have seen and are positive to the Segway are not just blinded by the hype.
I also believe that Segway's success will not only be determined by the nature of the product but by how people percieve the product. Once again I think of the PC. Kamen will have to be able to sell his vision. Some consider his vision to be BS, others are swept up by it.
John writes:
quote:...None of the first round of testers seem to be eager to place large orders. No one seems to know what to do with it. Someone will figure it out and there will be enough business to make plenty of people rich...
What testers are u reffering to John? Most of the preliminary test results I have seen have been positive. The intention of this thread to look at those test results, positive and negative. Why dont u present us with those negative test results.
JohnM
10-12-2002, 01:53 PM
quote:Originally posted by Lawrence
U are able to mix with cars and trucks in traffic but a lot of people are not or dare not or simply dont want to. I dont recall the statistics about how many cyclists get hurt or injured on the streets. Maybe u can help us out on that. I suspect that it would be safer for most people to ride Segways on sidewalks and paths than in traffic. That is my interpretation of Kamen's statement.
There are plenty of things that I am afaid to do or simply don't want to do. But just because I am not willing to skydive does not mean that it can't be done. DK says bikes can't mix it up on the street. Of course they can. As the Pennsylvania DOT Bicycle Manual said, "sharing the road with cars calls for an attitude of security and confidence". Those who are insecure and lacking in confidance will find it undo-able. I know where Kamen stands on this issue. Too bad that he tried to project his attitude onto the entire population. It's the 'vision' thing.
Safety: On a per hour basis bikes are safer than cars. On a per mile basis cars are safer the bikes. And it all depends on whether one is talking fatalities, emergency room visits or simple falls resulting in scraped knees. Overall, however, bicycling is much safer than the public generally perceives it to be. Toss in the health benefits and bike riders outlive the general population. I will ride my bike to the funerals of my non-cycling friends.
quote:
I wonder if u are judging Kamen by different standards than u judge the business community and people in general? Look at all the advertizing. Make a small change in your product and it is advertized as "revolutionary." That is the world we live in. Even so, Kamen believes that Segways can have a big social impact. He has all right to be optimistic about his product. It remains to be seen as to whether the hyping that he has done will help or hurt the success of Segway.
First, I'll give Kamen a break and say that much of the Segway hype was beyond his control. The whole Kemper book thing set expectations too high. That whole mess was unfortunate. But, I still have a low tolerance for hype, no matter who it comes from. Perhaps I do hold Kamen to a slightly higher standard. As something of a local celebrity, I have been following his work for years. He's been very low key. Many Manchester residents did't even know what was going on down on Commercial Street. The 'revolutionary', 'change the world' hype seemed to be out of character, but given that this is the first product that he is actually going to produce and market himself, I can cut him a bit of slack. But I still don't buy into all of it.
quote:
Kamen is not selling people a cat in a sack. He has thorough testing being done. People are given hands on experience. Yes Segway will stand or fall on its merits. But again, these days, when even a brand of toilet paper is described in terms of revolutionary, hype is needed to get people's attention.
Trust me, I've seen Segways around Manchester dozens of times. Each time, it catches me off guard, I do a double take and can't suppress a grin. Its really is remarkable and does't need hype to get attention.
quote:
So u dont think Segways will evolve significantly? I think they will. I think they will be a lot cheaper, ligher, more versatile. I think they will have better batteries and run on stirlings increasing power and range. I think they will be computers on wheels with more robotic characteristics and I think that will increase their functionality.
Segway will need to do something to increase it's range if it is to survive. If it can't work an 8 hour shift, its DOA for many business applications. The problem with better batteries and sterlings is that they will benefit a whole range of other devices as well. Segway will still have to stand on its own unique strengths, which I see as its manueverability at slow speeds and small footprint. Find the places where those characterists will increase productivity or improve peoples lives and Segway will sell like hotcakes. Trying to sell the 'vision' will only put people to sleep.
quote:...Segway will still have to stand on its own unique strengths, which I see as its manueverability at slow speeds and small footprint. Find the places where those characterists will increase productivity or improve peoples lives and Segway will sell like hotcakes. Trying to sell the 'vision' will only put people to sleep.
Yes small footprint and balance/manueverability at slow speeds are two of Segways main unique features. Another unique feature is that it balances itself and is hard to tip over. Like u say, it is a wow feature. Other unique features include control by subtle balancing and a very unique experience of riding it. It has no brakes and gears and requires litte maintenance. I could add to the list of more or less unique features but I am sure u know about them.
Perhaps they will sell like hotcakes to some nitche market, perhaps oven to the consumer market. It will continue to be interesting to follow the developments on this.
With regard to the "vision thing" I get the impression that a number of people concerned about pollution are interested in Segways specifically for that reason.
JohnM
10-12-2002, 08:39 PM
quote:Originally posted by Lawrence
Yes small footprint and balance/manueverability at slow speeds are two of Segways main unique features. Another unique feature is that it balances itself and is hard to tip over. Like u say, it is a wow feature. Other unique features include control by subtle balancing and a very unique experience of riding it. It has no brakes and gears and requires litte maintenance. I could add to the list of more or less unique features but I am sure u know about them.
Perhaps they will sell like hotcakes to some nitche market, perhaps oven to the consumer market. It will continue to be interesting to follow the developments on this.
With regard to the "vision thing" I get the impression that a number of people concerned about pollution are interested in Segways specifically for that reason.
Low maintenance? Four hours of recharge after as little as 90 minutes of run time. Thats high maintenance it my book. And the control is not all subtle balancing. Steering on a bike is mostly by balance. Steering the Segway uses a kludgey twist grip on the handlebars.
The whole DS balancing thing is a neat engineering trick but of little consequence until the Segway slows or comes to a stop. I can balance on two wheels with a bike, easy, so long as I'm moving. It only becomes difficult at slow speeds, i.e a walking pace, which Segway does very well. But there are simpler ways to gain stability, like adding more wheels. A tricycle is extremely stable, at the expense of a larger footprint. Worksman, http://www.worksman.com/mover.html , has been manufacturing industrial trikes for over 100 years. They can move a heavy load further, faster, cleaner and cheaper than a Segway, at the expense of small footprint maneuverability. Also check out the 3 wheeled ROBART, http://www.spawar.navy.mil/robots/land/robart/robart.html . (SPAWAR, the Navy lab that built ROBART, has purchased 17 Segways.)
Balance is easy. (Even you manage to do it!) The trick is doing it with a small footprint while moving. That combination is Segway's key feature. Find the application that benefits from that and you have located Segway's commercial/industrial niche.
As far a pollution goes, nothing is as clean and efficient as a bike; the ultimate two wheeled green machine. Vision? My Thorn Nomad, http://www.sjscycles.com/26solobrochure2002/solop9.asp , is vision.
JohnM writes:
quote:Low maintenance? Four hours of recharge after as little as 90 minutes of run time. Thats high maintenance it my book.
True the battery on Segway has to be charged up. But u dont have to do anything other than plug it in. I dont know how often u will need to fill or repair the tires on Segway. Nor do I know how often u will have to oil it or fix the chain or replace parts, adjust the gears as u do on a bike. From what I read, such maintenance seldom necessary. We dont have details on this yet.
quote:Steering on a bike is mostly by balance. Steering the Segway uses a kludgey twist grip on the handlebars.
Agreed, for the time being u have to use handlebars. In the patents they have versions without handlebars, maybe that will be part of the evolution of Segway.
quote:As far a pollution goes, nothing is as clean and efficient as a bike; the ultimate two wheeled green machine. Vision? My Thorn Nomad, http://www.sjscycles.com/26solobrochure2002/solop9.asp , is vision.
Agreed, the bike is the ultimate 2 wheeled green machine. As u pointed out it has been around a long time and born the test of time. Lots of people are riding them. But bikes have not solved the problem of air pollution and traffic congestion. People dont seem motivated to ride their bikes instead of taking their cars for the short trips. Perhaps because they are lazy, perhaps because they dont feel as safe on a bike as do, perhaps they dont like getting sweaty, etc. I dont know if Segway will motivate people to keep their cars parked more than the bike has. We will have to wait and see.
Blinky writes:
quote:I just want to give you a scenario/story where the Segway-HT will be beneficial...
That is an interesting example of where Segways could be useful. There are lots of such examples where Segways would save a great deal of time and money because other vehicles would not be appropriate and walking is too slow: doctors & nurses in hospitals, security guards and maintenance people, emergency services, pilots and stewardesses airports, hotel service & maintenance etc. Who knows maybe we will be seeing footballgames that require a lot of runing by the referee may be using them.
GlideMaster
10-13-2002, 06:42 PM
I would just like to state that the Segway has no parts that require any form of lubrication. It has no chain nor gears that have to or that can be adjusted. Most of the individual parts on the Segway are redundant systems and most only need the included allen wrench set that comes with if anything needs to be replaced. The Michelin tires can take 15 to 30 PSI and are made just for the Segway and Segway only. Like any other tire I'm quite sure it can get a flat under certain conditions. There are also snow tire.
Weskifm
quote:Originally posted by Lawrence
JohnM writes:
quote:Low maintenance? Four hours of recharge after as little as 90 minutes of run time. Thats high maintenance it my book.
True the battery on Segway has to be charged up. But u dont have to do anything other than plug it in. I dont know how often u will need to fill or repair the tires on Segway. Nor do I know how often u will have to oil it or fix the chain or replace parts, adjust the gears as u do on a bike. From what I read, such maintenance seldom necessary. We dont have details on this yet.
quote:Steering on a bike is mostly by balance. Steering the Segway uses a kludgey twist grip on the handlebars.
Agreed, for the time being u have to use handlebars. In the patents they have versions without handlebars, maybe that will be part of the evolution of Segway.
quote:As far a pollution goes, nothing is as clean and efficient as a bike; the ultimate two wheeled green machine. Vision? My Thorn Nomad, http://www.sjscycles.com/26solobrochure2002/solop9.asp , is vision.
Agreed, the bike is the ultimate 2 wheeled green machine. As u pointed out it has been around a long time and born the test of time. Lots of people are riding them. But bikes have not solved the problem of air pollution and traffic congestion. People dont seem motivated to ride their bikes instead of taking their cars for the short trips. Perhaps because they are lazy, perhaps because they dont feel as safe on a bike as do, perhaps they dont like getting sweaty, etc. I dont know if Segway will motivate people to keep their cars parked more than the bike has. We will have to wait and see.
Blinky writes:
quote:I just want to give you a scenario/story where the Segway-HT will be beneficial...
That is an interesting example of where Segways could be useful. There are lots of such examples where Segways would save a great deal of time and money because other vehicles would not be appropriate and walking is too slow: doctors & nurses in hospitals, security guards and maintenance people, emergency services, pilots and stewardesses airports, hotel service & maintenance etc. Who knows maybe we will be seeing footballgames that require a lot of runing by the referee may be using them.
I notice there are some test results trickling in. Most recently Hatsfield Airport testing found by found by Casey.
On the Segway site they have posted this:
http://www.segway.com/aboutus/press_releases/pr_090402.html
quote:12 percent productivity savings from their preliminary evaluation of Segway™ Human Transporters (HT) purchased in July.
quote:In August the first evaluation of the devices was conducted by comparing the time maintenance routes took on foot versus riding the Segway HT. Riding a Segway HT produced a savings of 56 minutes per route for each consultant, indicating that in this application each unit purchased would pay for itself in about one year.
I wonder why the testers chose foot vs. Segway comparison instead of comparing other vehicles to Segway? Was it because other vehicles would simply not be funcional?
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