made in china centaur ripoff?

[japaneezy]

just found this on youtube today. Looks almost exactly like a centaur but it looks as if it doesnt stand up???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJn-1D5qS60

[Sal]

Ugh... looks like an electric 4 wheeler with a ripoff Centaur design. Good designs always get copied... obvious with only a fraction of [the Centaur's capabilities] functionality.

Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen this before. (and we've seen our share of Segway ripoffs)

-Sal

[Jus Sumguy]

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/50815665/Electric_Four_Wheelers.jpg


(1)Wheelbase:750mm
(2) Loading: <75kg
(3) Range: >25km
(4) Max. speed: 30Km/h
(5) Batter: Lead-Acid
(6) Battery: 24V x 40Ah
(7) Motor: Speedy brush motor 700W
(8) Tyre: 70/80-13(F/R) tubeless
(9) Rims' material: aluminum
(10) Frame material: iron
(11) Dimensions: 1,180 X 800 X 920mm
Packing:G.W.: 78kgs
N.W.: 65kgs
Carton size: 1,150 X 830 X 750mm
Container: 84pcs/40' FCL




More--->CLICK (http://kingwell.en.alibaba.com/product/50380107/50815665/Electric_bicycle/Electric_Four_Wheelers.html)

Looks kinda cool to me.

-

[KSagal]

Seems to be a lesser copy, but if it hits the market first, it becomes the standard...

It seems that he who hesitates is lost....

[bystander]

Seems to be a lesser copy, but if it hits the market first, it becomes the standard...

It seems that he who hesitates is lost....Since, for all intensive purposes, the "market" doesn't even exist...

What's the point of grousing about it?

Let "the market" become more developed with this clone, then someone can release a superior product that (literally) stands above the rest.

Segway Inc. may not be that someone. But once an ATV-related company can see that money is being made with the 4 wheel only clone, they may license the Centaur design from Segway, Inc. in order to compete in that market.

And if the 4 wheel only clone dies on the vine, it didn't cost Segway, Inc. another expensive marketing lesson.

[macgeek]

"The Early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese"

Jonathan

[bystander]

(1) Wheelbase:750mm
(2) Loading: <75kg
(3) Range: >25km
(4) Max. speed: 30Km/h
(5) Batter: Lead-Acid
(6) Battery: 24V x 40Ah
(7) Motor: Speedy brush motor 700W
(8) Tyre: 70/80-13(F/R) tubeless
(9) Rims' material: aluminum
(10) Frame material: iron
(11) Dimensions: 1,180 X 800 X 920mm
Packing:G.W.: 78kgs, N.W.: 65kgs
Carton size: 1,150 X 830 X 750mm...and get more information.

Max speed divided by Range gives 30 kph / 25 km = 50 minutes runtime at full speed

Battery volts x battery amp-hours gives capacity = 960 watt-hours

Motor power rating times max runtime gives max discharge, 700 watts * 0.8333 hours = 583 watt hours

Depth of discharge = 1 minus (battery capacity minus max discharge / battery capacity, 1 - (960 wh - 583 wh) / 960wh = 60%

Estimated weight of Lead-acid battery pack is 960 wh / 13 wh/lb. = 70 lbs.

Estimated weight of necessary, unused reserve of battery pack is 40 % * 70 lbs. = 28 lbs.

Unlike NiCad, NiMH, & Lithium-ion, the Lead-acid chemistry is not capable of 100% depth of discharge (DOD) if you expect it to last for several hundred charge cycles. If you want your Lead-acid battery to last a normal lifetime, you'd better not discharge it completely before recharging it. If you do discharge it 100%, it will severely affect the number of remaining lifetime cycles left in the battery.

That's why it would make sense to keep a sizeable reserve on any Lead-acid battery powered electric vehicle.

Which makes the clone pay a substantial weight penalty. Oh well, being heavier will increase traction, but could increase stopping distance, depending on the braking methods.

Typical suggested retail on 24v, 40ah worth of Lead-acid batteries, about $225 - $300

Approx. volume of 24v, 40ah worth of Lead-acid batteries, a little over 1 / 3 of a cubic foot

Other significant differences to a Centaur:

Centaur has low-speed, two wheel balance mode.

The two Centaur motors are 2.5 HP peak, each, although they may only operate at an average of 1 hp (~750 watts) or so.

Centaur motors are brushless, and therefore do not require maintenance.

Centaur prototypes seen so far have plastic wheel rims and are 14" diameter, not 13".

Centaur's battery, being Saphion, weighs about 45 lbs.

Centaur has a built-in charger.

Centaur's speed control sonically masks the PWM drive signals to the motors, no annoying hum or tone.

Things we'd like to know about the clone:

What's the hill climbing performance like?

What does it use for brakes?

Does the motor controller regeneratively recharge the batteries on downhills and during braking?

Based on the mech. specs., it should cost less than twice as much as a "Q" scooter. Is this so?

What are the consequences if someone accidentally throws the reverse switch when traveling full speed?

Does it qualify as a NEV in the US?

[quade]

Bwahahaha . . . I made a comment about how he stole the basic design styling from Segway and the guy removed it.

Ok, well, I guess that was to be expected. ;^)

[JohnM]

Does it qualify as a NEV in the US?

Nope.
Check out the US DOT's standards for low speed vehicles (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/pdf/49cfr571.500.pdf).

[bystander]

Nope.
Check out the US DOT's standards for low speed vehicles (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/pdf/49cfr571.500.pdf).Thanks for the link. By "Nope", I suppose you mean the S5.b.8. - windshield, and S5.b.10. - seatbelt requirements. It looks like the rest (lights, signals, reflectors, mirrors, parking brake) could be tacked on. Perhaps S5.b.8 could be circumvented by wearing a helmet that includes a faceshield. Not sure why S5.b.10 is apt for a vehicle with a saddle type seat. Motorcycles, mopeds, bicycles and equestrians do not face this restriction.

[JohnM]

Thanks for the link. By "Nope", I suppose you mean the S5.b.8. - windshield, and S5.b.10. - seatbelt requirements. It looks like the rest (lights, signals, reflectors, mirrors, parking brake) could be tacked on. Perhaps S5.b.8 could be circumvented by wearing a helmet that includes a faceshield. Not sure why S5.b.10 is apt for a vehicle with a saddle type seat. Motorcycles, mopeds, bicycles and equestrians do not face this restriction.

The original question was: Would the clone qualify as an NEV, i.e. a low speed vehicle? After looking at the DOT standards, I'd guess the answer is no.
If you are now asking if motorcycles, mopeds, bicycles and equestrians would qualify as low speed vehicles the answers are no, no, no and no. But they don't have to, because they are motorcycles, mopeds, bicycles and equestrians, not NEVs. And there is no need to shoehorn them into transportation standards where they don't belong.

[bystander]

The original question was: Would the clone qualify as an NEV, i.e. a low speed vehicle? After looking at the DOT standards, I'd guess the answer is no.
If you are now asking if motorcycles, mopeds, bicycles and equestrians would qualify as low speed vehicles the answers are no, no, no and no. But they don't have to, because they are motorcycles, mopeds, bicycles and equestrians, not NEVs. And there is no need to shoehorn them into transportation standards where they don't belong.Sorry, I wasn't trying to shoehorn anything.

I suppose I was trying to see the situation as a half full glass rather than a half empty one. By that I mean I was looking at how little additional effort it would take to make the clone NEV approvable, not how badly it missed the mark.

[SegwayDan]

The "geek-savant" speaks sooth!

[gbrandwood]

I wonder what the real benefit of the balancing capabilities are for the Centaur? I mean, it's cool and I'd love to try one (actually touched one @ Disney but apparently the guts were removed so couldn't ride it - or easily steel it :eek:), but why make it self balance?

[bystander]

I wonder what the real benefit of the balancing capabilities are for the Centaur? I mean, it's cool and I'd love to try one (actually touched one @ Disney but apparently the guts were removed so couldn't ride it - or easily steal it :eek:), but why make it self balance?Didn't you see the 4-5 meter turning radius in the clone video? One reason you might want it to get up on two wheels is so you can turn in your own width. From the performance demonstrated in the short video, the clone might even have a single motor and rear axle. A single axle doesn't keep it from balancing on two wheels, but it does eliminate the chance of a so called "zero radius" turn.

Another reason why the Centaur is what it is, is that you (that is, "you" being Segway, Inc.) have all these batteries, controller boards, gearboxes, wheels and chassis that you either have in inventory or that you are contracted to buy, and need to put them to use.

I think the Centaur was a byproduct of the engineering managers at Segway, Inc. setting a challenge to see the most interesting device that can be made from the basic PT components. The concept was an exercise in "thinking outside the box" to work out ways of repurposing existing design elements, a talent germane to the upcoming (at that time) i2 design.

And I think the i2 was a byproduct of the engineering managers setting a challenge to see the most marketable device that can be made from the basic PT components - or at least as marketable as the gen1. With the Centaur design "under their belts", the engineers' re-use of gen1 components on the gen2 was less unfamiliar to deal with. The Centaur design / development may have been a "practice run" that just happens to be a marginally marketable concept as well.

A similar situation is the recent Opel partnership, which gave the engineers a chance to simulate what it would be like if a major company licensed the PT design. Their successful development of the compacted i2 prototype shows they are ready to adapt to most any design consideration.

You can't keep the engineering staff in a box, waiting for marketing opportunities to come up. You have to keep them exercised so that they are ready to perform when the situation calls for it.

[Sal]

I think the Centaur was a byproduct of the engineering managers at Segway, Inc. setting a challenge to see the most interesting device that can be made from the basic PT components. The concept was an exercise in "thinking outside the box" to work out ways of repurposing existing design elements, a talent germane to the upcoming (at that time) i2 design.

And I think the i2 was a byproduct of the engineering managers setting a challenge to see the most marketable device that can be made from the basic PT components - or at least as marketable as the gen1. With the Centaur design "under their belts", the engineers' re-use of gen1 components on the gen2 was less unfamiliar to deal with. The Centaur design / development may have been a "practice run" that just happens to be a marginally marketable concept as well.

One of the most salient and cogent observations I have read on this site ever!

Thanks for your thoughts.

-Sal

[Desert_Seg]

...You can't keep the engineering staff in a box, waiting for marketing opportunities to come up. You have to keep them exercised so that they are ready to perform when the situation calls for it.

Dang, I who dole out rep points as if I were handing out my own money had the urge to once again click on the scales.

Unfortunately vBulletin won't allow me the pleasure so I now must do so in this more public manner.

Another great post, you are becoming the Sage of Segway

Steven

[polo_pro]

Dang, I who dole out rep points as if I were handing out my own money had the urge to once again click on the scales.

Unfortunately vBulletin won't allow me the pleasure so I now must do so in this more public manner.

Another great post, you are becoming the Sage of Segway

Steven

Frankly, I think it's only a matter of time before Segway INC makes bystander an offer. You heard it here first. Now getting him to move out to NH...well, that might take "an offer you can't refuse"! 8^) 8^) 8^)

ps - HA the rep system FINALLY allowed me to give positive rep to bystander again! It's been a long long time since I've successfully done this. And it wasn't for lack of trying...I'd say I averaged once a week.

[bystander]

Sal, Desert_Seg, polo, thanks for the kind words.

If Segway, Inc. ever comes up with a position for "forum bum", I'll be sure to send in my resume.

I can't be sure my observation is correct, but it would explain a few things. I suppose at best, the motivation / practice angle is a contributing factor, but not the only factor involved.

[sholloway]

Why on Earth would they go so far to copy the Centaur down to the fact that it has No clearance under the rear "power base"? The real one has that limitation due to the design of the PT, it's one thing to "copy" someone, it's quite another to copy answers that were known to be wrong. I think the quickest "if I could change anything" point on the centaur would be rear end clearance. Way to go China "designers" (and I don't use that loosely, I use it jokingly), pay attention every now and then.

[Jus Sumguy]

Still.................all that being said.

This thing is cool. 20 MPH. And the price point (as far as I can tell) seems to be in the $750.00 range.

Plus you can hot rod the crap outa it.

-

[Desert_Seg]

Still.................all that being said.

This thing is cool. 20 MPH. And the price point (as far as I can tell) seems to be in the $750.00 range.

Plus you can hot rod the crap outa it.

-

Well, not really. Consider the history of the Q. It too had a very low price tag, had some of the very same switches and knobs, and was a Segway knockoff.

Unfortunately, according to the rep here, more than 50% come back within 3 days for being faulty, unsafe, or just plain crap (and maybe all 3!). My guess is this knock-off will be the same.

Steven

[Jus Sumguy]

As far as sales go. I personally don't really care.

As far as I go. I like it. But I'm familiar with DC motors and hybrid bikes. I make them all the time.

CLICK (http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2039), CLICK (http://www.bernsonev.com/wilderness-conversion-electric-conversion-kits-p-121.html), CLICK (http://www.instructables.com/id/Electric-Bicycle-ebike-Conversion-Kit-assembly--/), CLICK (http://www.greenspeed.us/bionx_350_lithium_battery.htm), CLICK (http://www.treadmarkbikes.com/go-hub.html),

It's the unique X type suspension, which intrigues me.

The first thing I would do with that thing is pull the original motor (it prolly has better applications) put 4 wheelHub motors on it. Two brushed in the back for the torque and two brush-less in the front. Use those lead acid batteries for paperweights and throw some Li-po's in her.

A little messin with the controllers and we'd have that puppy flying at 45 MPH with unGodly torque. Fly, and I mean fly, up ANY hill. You live in Hawaii? No problem my bruddah. With (if needed) an 80 Mi. range. But that would be at economy settings. Re: Using one motor/battery combination at a time. Typical range would be in the 35/45 Mi. area.

Electric bike conversions is what I do......well, one of the things I do. http://forums.segwaychat.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

-

[gbrandwood]

Didn't you see the 4-5 meter turning radius in the clone video? One reason you might want it to get up on two wheels is so you can turn in your own width.Not much of a benefit in my eyes for a 4 wheel fun type vehicle. How many situations do you think it would be useful in real-world environments where such a device is likely to find itself?

I think, similarly to you, the Centaur is the result of a frog kissing exercise and houses some potentially cool individual components that may turn up elsewhere in other products. As Jus Sumguy said, the suspension is interesting and I also think the turning mechanism has potential.

You can't keep the engineering staff in a box, waiting for marketing opportunities to come up. You have to keep them exercised so that they are ready to perform when the situation calls for it.Excellent point. However, I think frog-kissing is only a part-time occupation and most of their time is spent developing solutions to known issues and or new products, rather than to simply stay sharp until the next thing comes along. There's innovation in isolation and then there's product development along a traditional life-cycle. Sometimes these paths cross and other times they never do. But you waste time developing innovative products that no one is likely to want, unless the side-effect is learning which, if resources permit (and innovation hasn't starved you of), can be re-deployed elsewhere.

[Dallxx]

Thanks for the link. By "Nope", I suppose you mean the S5.b.8. - windshield, and S5.b.10. - seatbelt requirements. It looks like the rest (lights, signals, reflectors, mirrors, parking brake) could be tacked on. Perhaps S5.b.8 could be circumvented by wearing a helmet that includes a faceshield. Not sure why S5.b.10 is apt for a vehicle with a saddle type seat. Motorcycles, mopeds, bicycles and equestrians do not face this restriction.

So they won't be able to sell these in the US without the NEV requirements right? I actually wanted to order one from this guy and check it out. I just don't want to order it if he can't get to the US.

[Dallxx]

Hey Guys,

I Just ordered one of those ecoboomers. I should have it in about 30-45 days. As soon as I get it I will test the hell out of this thing and see how it actually runs. I will also shoot video on it so I can show you guys.

[KSagal]

I obviously know segways and their riding characteristics.

I have ridden a Q. My first try was back at segfest '04 in Florida.

There is a tremendous difference even in optimal conditions. We were on a perfect floor for gliding, the corners and stopping were scary. I can only imagine how much worse it would have been outside on uneven terrain.

I have ridden a centaur, in a few different environments, inside and out.

I wonder how much difference this copy will be from the original as well. I suspect much.

These item seem similar in some ways, in many ways, on a picture or video, but the proof is in the actual device. I have seen lots of stuff that looks good on the net. Real life is a different experience.

[bystander]

So they won't be able to sell these in the US without the NEV requirements right? I actually wanted to order one from this guy and check it out. I just don't want to order it if he can't get to the US.Lacking a NEV classification probably won't keep it from being offered for sale, but could keep it from being used on public roads without a hassle from local authorities. If you import one and use in only on your own property, I don't think you would have any trouble.

By the way, as a new poster, your first few posts are on moderation hold, so don't be surprised that it's a little difficult to obtain a quick response at first.

I haven't seen enough specifications on this product to formulate a reasonable evaluation it's worth. The short video that showed up so far indicates that a working prototype exists, but doesn't show much of it's capabilities and limitations.

As Karl pointed out, a PT knock-off, known as the "Q" scooter, that claimed to offer similar functionality as the PT came out a few years ago. The "Q" turned out to be not at all comparable to the PT (to anyone familiar with day-to-day PT operations).

A clone product usually tries to "draft" behind sales and marketing efforts of the "original" product. The "Q" may have had limited success in doing that, but who will ever know, other than the few importers who handled them?

I don't know how many "Q"s sold in the US or world-wide, but it doesn't seem like many. If the "Q" sales are a fraction of PT sales, and PT sales are still on the low side, you can imaging that "EcoBoomer" sales will be virtually non-existent, as the Centaur is not even offered for sale.

[gibsa004]

Hey everyone,
I'm looking at getting one of these (When I was talking to the sales manager, I made the mistake of comparing the clone with the centaur!):eek: Though they deny any connection between the two! Dallxx, Could you let me know what you think of the ecoboomer, and if you think its worth coughing up $1495 for one? Also that video would be a big help too!

[Dallxx]

I will let you know as soon as I get it. I hope it's a good product, I'll put it to the test!!!!