World's fastest Lithium-ion battery bike crashes

[BringOnI2]

So this thing almost kills its maker on live tv, and yet is anyone going to ban them as unsafe like they do with Segways?

http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-33853-113.html

[bystander]

So this thing almost kills its maker on live tv, and yet is anyone going to ban them as unsafe like they do with Segways?

http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content-view-33853-113.htmlAs far as I know, dragster bikes of this kind are not street legal, and are therefore already considered "banned".

It is unfortunate that the inventor/driver did not make more safety precautions before his attempt.

Link with less pixelated video:

http://webdogpro.com/2007/09/13/killacycle-creator-injured-by-his-creation/

[solotrek]

That was so stupid. No helmet? People nearby. I can't believe it. Electric drag bikes will surely be banned from city sidewalks.

[quade]

Amateurs should not attempt to do stunts.

Duh. What an idiot.

[bystander]

Amateurs should not attempt to do stunts.

Duh. What an idiot.Easy to see his poor judgment in hindsight. (and in foresight too, for the safety conscious.)

But this guy, Bill Dube, is one of the few actually making innovations in electric powered vehicles. I think we need more folks like this around, even if they occasionally pull some crazy stunt.

In all the comments on the TG Daily site, there are many negative ones, and some wishing well. But very few commending the driver for keeping the problem from getting worse than it was. Before the impact he was able to unstick the throttle and get it down to about 20 mph. Could have been a lot messier if that didn't happen.

[macgeek]

A very impressive motorcycle, the tesla car does the same acceleration I think
but as a driver he was foolish, not to at least wear a helmet.
I think (bumps and bruises excluded) he has a great product.

Jonathan

[JohnM]

So this thing almost kills its maker on live tv, and yet is anyone going to ban them as unsafe like they do with Segways?
Why do you ask? Is someone suggesting that motorcycles be allowed on sidewalks?

[polo_pro]

Why do you ask? Is someone suggesting that motorcycles be allowed on sidewalks?

Well based on the video, the maker seems to feel it's appropriate to drive it on the sidewalks. 8^) 8^) 8^) Actually in all seriousness, I'm really glad no one was on that sidewalk at the time. Given the speeds involved, only someone walking directly at the camera would have had a chance to jump out of the way. And at 675 pounds for the bike (plus another 200 for the rider), any injury would have been serious. Did you see how much that minivan rocked when it was hit?!

[SegwayDan]

Trying to associate or compare two phenomena which are far more different than similar is just plain silly.

A 619 lb, 400 HP drag bike is *NOT* a 100 lb 4 HP Segway PT, despite their both being battery powered.

Helmet schmelmet. The barnstormers of the '20s and '30s wore leather caps, and their motto was, "A good flight is one you can walk away from."

I admire this guy's spirit of adventure, ingenuity, and aplomb. On his back after the crash he calmly said, "The throttle stuck on." That's a true engineer and inventor.

That bike is awesome and an intriguing foray of electric-power technology into the world of racing. Racing is indeed dangerous, but it yields its benefits ultimately to the consumer, as companies like Honda, Toyota, and Ferrari know full-well. It's an extreme environment where technologies get tested to the max, where equipment shows its strengths and weaknesses dramatically.

0-60 in .97 sec, and the 1/4 mile @ 157 mph (according to Bill) is *QUICK*, and that while weighing 100 lbs more than a standard pro-stock bike. Take a look at an actual track run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDHJNG2PngQ&NR=1

For one thing it demonstrates the superior power of continuously applied torque from an electric motor, as compared with the pulsing torque of an IC engine.

Bill Dube isn't stupid. He's courageous. Admire the accomplishment, and again, the fact that *American* ingenuity is still alive and well--with Bill Dube and KillaCycle, Apple, Inc., Segway, Inc., et al.

[macgeek]

Here here!!!

Positive rep points headed at you.

Jonathan

[quade]

Helmet schmelmet. The barnstormers of the '20s and '30s wore leather caps, and their motto was, "A good flight is one you can walk away from."

You do realize that was a JOKE and not SOP? The reason for the leather caps was because it was cold and any sort of helmet does very little good in an aircraft accident.


I admire this guy's spirit of adventure, ingenuity, and aplomb. On his back after the crash he calmly said, "The throttle stuck on." That's a true engineer and inventor.

Or somebody trying to rationalize his way out of his own stupid actions by blaming the equipment rather than himself.

Admire the accomplishment, and again, the fact that *American* ingenuity is still alive and well--with Bill Dube and KillaCycle, Apple, Inc., Segway, Inc., et al.
The device is amazing, however, the over the top patriotism is a bit much. Being American has nothing to do with it. Being a captialist and trying to make money is far more of a motivating factor here.

[hellphish]

You're funny Quade. Are you saying he was lying about the throttle? A helmet wouldn't help the throttle unstick and he didn't have any head injuries so I'm not sure what you're on about.

[quade]

You're funny Quade. Are you saying he was lying about the throttle? A helmet wouldn't help the throttle unstick and he didn't have any head injuries so I'm not sure what you're on about.

I'm saying that electronic throttles should very rarely stick and it's far more likely he's simply trying to rationalze his way out of an embarrassing situation.

Frankly, I'd be far more worried about a company that couldn't make a reliable throttle control on the "world's fastest Lithium-ion battery bike", so, I'm not so certain that's an example of brilliant "American ingenuity" there.

[hellphish]

I mostly agree with you actually. Electronic throttles should very rarely stick. But very rarely doesn't mean never, and I don't think we've seen enough lithium ion powered drag motorcycles to conclusively determine their failure rate. I'm willing to give the man the benefit of the doubt, as he obviously didn't mean for the bike to keep going like it did.

[KSagal]

I'm saying that electronic throttles should very rarely stick and it's far more likely he's simply trying to rationalze his way out of an embarrassing situation.

Frankly, I'd be far more worried about a company that couldn't make a reliable throttle control on the "world's fastest Lithium-ion battery bike", so, I'm not so certain that's an example of brilliant "American ingenuity" there.


So... If I follow your logic, then he decided to crash into that minivan, and then realized it was embarrassing, so he decided to lie about a stuck throttle, even in obvious pain. Your presumption is that his embarrassment was more important to him than the pain? Or that he really did not mind damaging that machine, and was only embarrassed about it?

I suspect that something mechanically or electronically did go wrong, and he did his best to minimize the problem, even if he did not use the best judgement in demonstrating where he did and with the lack of safety equipment.

I agree with Dan's statement of having some pride in this great land, and some of it's finer minds. I see nothing wrong with that at all, and surely see no reason to try to diminish that. Other lands and peoples also have achievements to be proud of...

I think that most of us have diminished our own successes from time to time with a bit of less than stirling judgement, but that should not remove the earned credit for hard work and enlightened imagination.

[bystander]

Bill Dube takes his lumps on the killacycle blog page:

http://www.killacycle.com/2007/09/13/im-fine-scapes-and-cuts-bike-is-a-little-bent/

I’m Fine (scapes and cuts) Bike is a little bent….

First off, I’m just a bit scraped up. Embarrassed of course. I had not intended the bike to move in the soapy water, just spin the tire.

Got it slowed down to about 20 mph. Front wheel is bent, as are front forks. Cowling is not nearly as pretty as it was.
Battery box took a hit from the front wheel. Almost certainly, some cells were shorted. No smoke. No fire. Ultra safe cells. Had these been anything but A123 Systems Nano-phosphate cells, shorts would have caused a serious fire.

No major damage. We will have it fixed in short order.

Important to note: Area in front of the bike was CLEARED of ALL PEOPLE. NO ONE was at risk but me. Concrete on both sides of area.

Yes, I am an idiot for not wearing a helmet. :-/

Many comments there. Bill responds to a few of the comments with italic formatted text (which I've colored dark green):

a1fa
September 14th, 2007 at 1:42 pm

Remember kids, clutch left, break right!

There is no clutch. There is no flywheel. There is no transmission. No need for any of them. Electric motors give instant 100% torque at zero RPM.

James
September 14th, 2007 at 2:10 pm

You said: “I had to release the front brake to fully untwist the throttle.”

I trust you built a kill switch into the bike? If so, you need to take a basic motorcycle safety course before you ride again.

It has _three_ kill switches. One is a lanyard that I attached to my wrist (and remained attached.) Another is on the left handlebar. Another is a switch near the right handlebar. There are two, $900 3000 amp KiloVac safety contactors, one on each power cable coming out of the pack. Pulling the lanyard cuts the positive safety contactor. The switch on the left handle bar cuts the negative safety contactor. The switch near the right handle bar cuts BOTH contactors.

The main fuse is sized so that, on the strip, if you panic and just cram on the brakes, you will pop the fuse and sut the bike down.

The bike covers the first 60 ft in just over one second. I managed to figure out the problem and shut it down just before the 60 ft mark. Also notice ho long it takes for me to hit the van compared to the time to accelerate. I _almost_ had it stopped. I needed about 10-20 more feet, which is where I personally came to a stop.

If not, you need one.

RE: Your helmet, you were on the bike, the bike was on, you needed to be wearing a helmet. The “I didn’t expect the bike to move” excuse is feeble at best.

Kenny
September 17th, 2007 at 1:34 pm

wow, glad you’re alright dude. Hurting oneself sucks !! holy god that thing took off like a rocket, couldn’t tell from the vid that you actually got it slowed. I assumed you freaked out and held the throttle open the whole way, totally a reasonable reaction.

If that were the case I would be dead. I shut it down in about a second. The rest of the time I was slowing it down. Needed about ten more feet, however.

edEx
September 17th, 2007 at 10:36 pm

saw vid. glad you’re ok.

can these batteries be used for cars to alleviate oil dependency?

That is the plan. If EVs are high-performance, lots of folks will buy them. Then, they will make a real difference.

[GadgetmanKen]

I thought I heard him say he was the designer, not the rider, or something to that effect in the beginning of the video. Its my guess that he was just having a real hard time trying to hold on under all those G's. Wow. It was real convienent having that van parked in his path. Dooh! No helmet either. Dooh! Dooh! Awesome tech, tho. I am not sure why someone doesn't use that tech to add a huge flywheel or something. It reminded me of those SST zip cord flywheel motorcycles kids toys the way it took off.

[hellphish]

What would adding a fly wheel do for the bike, other than making it more difficult to turn?

[quade]

What would adding a fly wheel do for the bike, other than making it more difficult to turn?

Flywheel on an electric motocycle would be a pointless waste of energy.

[quade]

So... If I follow your logic, then he decided to crash into that minivan, and then realized it was embarrassing, so he decided to lie about a stuck throttle, even in obvious pain. Your presumption is that his embarrassment was more important to him than the pain? Or that he really did not mind damaging that machine, and was only embarrassed about it?

I suspect that something mechanically or electronically did go wrong . . .

The most important component of any powered device is the nut that holds the controls. When that fails, disaster is imminent. :)

[bystander]

I thought I heard him say he was the designer, not the rider, or something to that effect in the beginning of the video.Bill Dube is the owner, designer, and crew chief of the Killacycle. He has experience with electric dragstrip vehicles since 1997, but he is not the rider when the bike is demoed full speed at drag strips.

This website seems to indicate that someone named "Bill" may do warm-up runs, however:

http://www.nedra.com/

See entry for "Friday evening, July 13"

Also, this article is good for more information and photos about the latest incarnation of the killacycle:

http://autospeed.com.au/cms/A_108827/article.html

It's interesting that they heat the batteries just before a run for optimal discharge characteristics. Then they cool the pack before the next run. The heat endured by the Lithium-ion Phosphate batteries (75-100ºC) would cause conventional Lithium-ion metal oxide batteries to burn and explode, according to the article.

[bystander]

What would adding a fly wheel do for the bike, other than making it more difficult to turn?
Flywheel on an electric motorcycle would be a pointless waste of energy.Well, we're talking about a single purpose drag bike here, not a regular motorcycle.

I think the point was that a flywheel, spun up by the electric motors before the start of the race, then combined with the electric drive during the race would allow more power applied to the road during the race. As it is now, the killacycle only discharges a fraction (about 1/6 or 1/7) of it's capacity for each run. By getting more power out of the batteries and into the drive train in the few seconds the bike is running, the faster it will go.

They're already shifting from series to parallel drive about 1/3 down the track for more power extraction.

Personally, I think adding a flywheel would make things overly complicated, but racers are always looking for an edge...

[KSagal]

I suspect that this is going to get a varied assortment of responses, but I have yet to meet a person who was in a car accident... Most of the people I know who have bumped into, or been bumped into, items or cars with their cars, did it themselves...

The amount of times that a car's front tires do not turn when you turn the steering wheel, or the car's tires do not slow down when you depress the brake pedal are really infinatessimal compared to the amount of times those devices work...

If you further remove the times that are related to the brakes that have been fading, and "I meant to get them fixed" before this event, or the times that "I know it was getting harder to steer, but I did not have time to bring it to the shop" and the, "I know I had that wierd clanging, but did not do anything about it..." then you fairly well have removed all the traffic accidents that I have ever heard of...

That is not to say that the tires can grip the snow/wet/dry/sandy/whatever road, at the speed you chose to drive, or that the wheels slowing down because of the brakes can stop the car in time to avoid a collision, or swerve in time to avoid the tree, or what ever...

There have been studies that have shown a connection between the controls on the radio, and the accident rates. That is one reason that many cars have the radio controls on the steering wheel, because it causes less driver distractions...

ALL ACCIDENTS IN CARS are the direct fault of the driver. If the driver was not there, the car would not be in the accident.

This accident with this electronic bike could not have happened without that driver, doing something that he should not have... I agree with those who say it was his fault...

All I offered was that that motorcycle itself would also not exist if is were not for that particular person as well. I was saying that we should not overlook the existance of the bike, and the accomplishment borne from years of hard work and inspiration, and perspiration from that driver, just because we choose not to look past that accident.

[bystander]

EV enthusiasts may be interested in the news that occured this past weekend:

http://www.killacycle.com/2007/11/11/7824-168-mph-at-pomona-ahdra-nov-10th/#comments

November 11th, 2007
7.824 @168 MPH !!!!!! at Pomona AHDRA Nov 10th
The KillaCycle made drag racing history at Pomona this weekend when we became the FIRST electric-powered vehicle to make a SEVEN-SECOND PASS in the 1/4 mile.

The bike is all patched up and has a slightly larger battery pack, and a new set of tires. The previous pack was developing 350 hp, the new one is estimated at 500 hp.

[SegwayDan]

Here's the YouTube link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHtAkM3CYLA&feature=related

Zero-60 in LESS then a second! Wowee zowee!!

It looks like the drag bar is plastic (probably for weight savings). You can hear it scrape on the pavement as he torques up. Couldn't hear that with a gas bike!

This guy is obviously undaunted by any of those minor mishaps which some have quibbled over earlier in this thread. In fact, it's those mishaps from which he learns the most so that the next time, and the next time, and the next time are all better and faster.

I think he said in the crash video while lying on his back, waiting for the "bus" to arrive, something like, "It actually stuck on. . .". Those are the flat objective statements of an engineer. You learn by doing, and you go back for more.

He's one brave, smart guy who's excited about doing something new and important--a REAL pioneer and right up there with Dean!

With a apologies to "bystander" for the irony of his username, any of us could be more than just bystanders with our own ideas, drive, and spirit of adventure!