Forum on Urban Mobility...

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quote:MONTREAL, Oct. 8 /CNW/ - The International Forum on Urban Mobility and Advanced Transportation invites the media to its opening ceremony featuring a presentation by Mr. Dean Kamen, inventor of the "Segway(TM) Human Transporter" and Chairman & CEO of DEKA Research and Development Corporation, this Wednesday, October 9, at the Saint-Jérôme CEGEP.
Mr. Kamen will meet the press upon arriving in Saint-Jérôme, at 4:30 pm,and will give a speech during the Forum's opening ceremony, scheduled to begin at 6:00 pm, at the CEGEP's amphitheatre. Also present at the ceremony will beMr. Roger Lanoue, vice president, Research and Strategic Planning at Hydro-Québec, Mr. Marc Gascon, Mayor of Saint-Jérôme, Ms. Lucie Papineau, minister
for Industry and Trade, Mr. Richard Legendre, minister responsible for Youth,Tourism, Recreation and Sport and minister responsible for the Laurentides Region, as well as the Honourable Claude Drouin, Secretary of State for Economic Development Canada. Other distinguished guests at the ceremony include Mr. Thierry Faugeras, deputy president of the Development and Innovation Centre for Electric and Hybrid Vehicles, from Poitiers, France, as well as many delegates from the Forum's French delegation.


http://www.newswire.ca/releases/October2002/08/c9172.html

Sound like a lot of distinguesed people will be listening to Kamen's speech. This could turn out to be very interesting. Hope we get access to the content of his speech soon.

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This thing is supposed to start some time soon. Hope somebody is keeping track here.

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Excerpt from the first article from the forum:

quote:"Michelin has just designed winter tires that can grip ice and snow in a way you wouldn't believe," HT inventor Dean Kamen said in an interview yesterday.

The bad news is the HT, like so many other cleaner transportation technologies, is still not available to consumers.

And though its gyroscopes can take you safely up and down stairs, it can't negotiate more than a couple of inches of snow, so getting over Montreal's drifts would be out of the question.

But Kamen claims his people are working on both of these problems.

Clearly the current Segways can only handle a couple of inches of snow. Since snow tends to drift, it is not likely to be much use in snowy weather. Eventually we might be seeing Segways that can handle deep snow, in the mean time Skidoos will have to do.

http://www.canada.com/montreal/news/story.asp?id=%7BB3BF42C8-BE27-442B-AD44-0BAC00028F70%7D

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence

Clearly the current Segways can only handle a couple of inches of snow. Since snow tends to drift, it is not likely to be much use in snowy weather. Eventually we might be seeing Segways that can handle deep snow, in the mean time Skidoos will have to do.



Have to do, eh? Not necessarily. Some hosers in The Great White North know better.... http://www.icebike.org

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quote:Originally posted by JohnM

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence

Clearly the current Segways can only handle a couple of inches of snow. Since snow tends to drift, it is not likely to be much use in snowy weather. Eventually we might be seeing Segways that can handle deep snow, in the mean time Skidoos will have to do.



Have to do, eh? Not necessarily. Some hosers in The Great White North know better.... http://www.icebike.org

I stand correctedd... partially.

quote:Handling a bike on ice requires more skill than summer riding, and plowing through snow is very tiring. The rewards are the beauty of the scenery, the quiet of the road on a frosty night, and the crunch of crisp snow under your tire. Making the first track!


If we are talking about vehicles that the masses can use for winter transportation, snow/ice bikes are not for everyone. I have ridden bikes on ice and snow even without winter tires. I would expect though that a Segway with winter tires would be more stable than a bike with winter tires, but less versatile.

However the extra thick tired Segways that they are developing for the military might be able to handle deep snow, sand, and mud better than any bike.

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence

However the extra thick tired Segways that they are developing for the military might be able to handle deep snow, sand, and mud better than any bike.


Might not.
The problems I see with a Segway are:
1. Low ground clearance. Hit the deep stuff and the underside of Segway's rider platform is bulldozing through it.
2. Weight. The Segway will be at least 50lbs heavier than an all terrain bike. It will sink deeper into muck and be that much harder to portage around it.
3. Reduced range. With a range of only 17 miles on clear sidewalks, hitting the deep doo-doo will drain the batteries in no time.

Bikes proved themselves to the US military in 1897 when the 25th Infantry Bicycle Corps made a 1,900 mile trip from Fort Missoula, Montana, to St. Louis, Missouri, through all kinds of terrain and weather, averaging over 50 miles a day. Segway (17 mile range) might be better than any bike? How about a 1897 Spalding? Nope. http://afroamhistory.about.com/library/prm/blwheelsofwar1.htm

And while they are 'developing' a militarized Segway that 'might' be able to handle adverse conditions, the Montague Paratrooper <http://www.militarybikes.com/> is a reality and currently in service in the Middle East, ready to take on Saddam Hussein.

Segways are cool, but their all-terrain/all-weather capabilities seem to be lacking. It's a device designed for clear sidewalks or indoors, where in performs admirably. Bikes were designed for the outdoors in an era of unpaved roads. I'd no sooner take a Segway on a typical New England trail than I would ride a bike in a shopping mall. The core designs have their own built in limitations.

If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

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John, it is refreshing to have someone like u, here for an stimulating debate.

quote:Might not.
The problems I see with a Segway are:
1. Low ground clearance. Hit the deep stuff and the underside of Segway's rider platform is bulldozing through it.
2. Weight. The Segway will be at least 50lbs heavier than an all terrain bike. It will sink deeper into muck and be that much harder to portage around it.
3. Reduced range. With a range of only 17 miles on clear sidewalks, hitting the deep doo-doo will drain the batteries in no time.
...

As far as low clearance, might not wider tires enable it to go over snow etc. than have to plow through?

Though Segways are heavier than bikes, might not the possibility to widen the wheels more than is possible with bikes give Segways an advantage?

The battery drainage problem could be serious, at least until the stirling charger is available.

The link to the military bike u posted is interesting as well.
How they compare with the military version of Segways remain to be seen.

quote:I'd no sooner take a Segway on a typical New England trail than I would ride a bike in a shopping mall. The core designs have their own built in limitations.

I dont know about the New Englad trails. But as u point out some versions of Segways will be most appropriate for relatively smooth surfaces. Bikes have been around a long time. They have their limitations. Segways are very new, we dont know about their potentials and how they might evolve. I try to keep an open mind.

[JohnM]

quote:Originally posted by Lawrence

As far as low clearance, might not wider tires enable it to go over snow etc. than have to plow through?

Though Segways are heavier than bikes, might not the possibility to widen the wheels more than is possible with bikes give Segways an advantage?



First, let me say that I have ridden a bike in 6 inches of snow and it is not something I would recommend. Its very hard work. The IceBike people admit that they are crazy.

Back to Segway. Both the E and I models have a platform height of 8 inches. Guessing from the pictures, the platform thickness is about half that, giving 4 inches of ground clearance. So, with high traction tires, Segway should be able to handle at least 4 inches of snow without great difficulty. Much beyond that, the leading edge of the platform becomes a plow. A lot also depends on the density of the snow and how it compresses under Segways wheels, but snow is such a variable substance I don't want to even venture into the topic. But look on the bright side: Once the snow is 6 inches deep, everything short of a full size SUV is going to have trouble.

Wider tires? Here's a tidbit I picked up while shopping for snowshoes.
Each shoe should have one square inch of surface area for each pound being supported. If I(170lbs)were to carry a Segway(80lbs)on my back while snowshoeing, I would want shoes with an area of 250 square inches each. Now try to imagine a tire with a contact patch of 250 square inches. We're talking monster truck tires. No, don't expect wider tires to help much.

So, at six inches of unpacked snow we will both be walking. But I can put my 25 lb bike on my shoulder and press on. You'll have to go to follow mode and drag your Segway through the deepening drifts. Good luck.

There was a picture of a Segway with all terrain tires but I don't know where it went. ??? They looked like just the ticket for traction in sand, mud and light snow.

[Casey]

Take a look at the closest Segway in the picture labeled Russian Segways. It may be what you are referring to.

http://66.241.210.178/forum/photo_album_view.asp?cname=Curiosities&mid=5&cid=8

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Casey, the "Russian" Segway is what I had in mind, but I cant argue with JohnM's point about PSI and tires. Well... I can try. What if u could shape the bottom of the Segway like a sled so that in deep snow the bottom of the platform would bear part of the weight. The tires could still propell it forward and backwards maybe? How would that affect the DS? I realize I am in deep "snow" with this speculation. ;)

Kamen seems to think that the snow problems is solveable somehow. But then he thrives on looking for solutions to hard problems.

[Casey]

I have to partially disagree with John on his statement. quote:Wider tires? Here's a tidbit I picked up while shopping for snowshoes.
Each shoe should have one square inch of surface area for each pound being supported. If I(170lbs)were to carry a Segway(80lbs)on my back while snowshoeing, I would want shoes with an area of 250 square inches each. Now try to imagine a tire with a contact patch of 250 square inches. We're talking monster truck tires. No, don't expect wider tires to help much.


I have spent a lot of time playing in snow, sand and mud with all kinds of vehicles. And while you most likely can't make a snowmobile of a Segway, wider/softer tires will do wonders for it in both types of terrain, just as it does for any vehicle. The contact patch on most car tires is nowhere close to 250 sq inches. I have taken a two ton pickup through just about anything you can imagine with a total of maybe 400 sq inches on all four tire patches, in four wheel drive.

We also did a trick called "bagging" the tires, which is simply letting the tires down to about 15 pounds of pressure from the normal 55 to 60 pounds. That makes an almost unbelievable difference in traction.

So, my point is that wide, very low pressure tires would get the Segway OVER deeper snow, as long as you approach it so as not to hang up the platform, but rather ride up onto it. As for using the platform as a ski, that would remove weight from the tires and reduce traction.

[Blinky]

quote:What wasn't mentioned was that Montreal has the best snow removal system on the continent. The roads are cleared very fast and little tanks roam the sidewalks clearing the snow tout suite. The sidewalks in Montreal are always full of people no matter the weather outside. We like to stroll no matter the conditions. The segway will fit in quite well in Montreal.


If this is true, then we would have no problems then. The amount of snow you guys will see in your life time will be two or three fold compared to mine. There is a concern about whether or not the Segway-HT will be able to handle snow conditions, and that is completely understood. This can not be ignored, especially if Dean Kamen wants to become successful with Segway.

I ask one question, why are we so concerned about this? How often do we see motorcycles riding in the snow, or even cars. Trucks and cars with chained tires would be the exception, but who goes driving, unless they have to, in bad snowy streets.