SUGGESTED CHANGES TO i2 SEGWAY

[RAY-NER]

It's hard to find a thread that discusses suggested changes that SEGWAY INC. should be considering, so I chose this one.

Below is a copy of an email I sent to SEGWAY customer service last week. Don't know if there will ever be an answer, but it was worth a try.

Any comments from members of this group are welome.

RAY-NER

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Judy,

During our phone conversation of Wednesday, I
mentioned a few possible feature upgrades to the Model
i2 that will improve user safety AND convenience of
loading the Segway into a vehicle.

A) User Safety

When moving forward at moderate speed and the wheels
are elevated if they encounter an unexpected speed
bump OR any rise that causes the wheels to loose
traction, the rider can be thrown from the Segway.
There should be an immediate shutdown that stops the
wheels from rotating when there is no pressure applied
to the Segway platform when the rider falls to the
ground and his body is no longer applying pressure to
the Segway platform.

This feature is required in order to stop the wheels
from turning if one of the rider’s feet is trapped
between the mudguard and the console.

However, when the Segway is not in motion and the
rider is stepping off the platform, the shutdown
occurs in the normal fashion by pressing the shutdown
button on the infokey. The foregoing shutdown is
recommended only when the Segway is in forward motion.

B) Loading the Segway into a vehicle with a hatchback lid.

In order to use the power of the i2 Segway to load it
into a vehicle using ramps, currently it is nearly impossible to go up the ramp using the power of the wheels in motion.

The reason is that in order to go forward (up the ramp)
the wheels have to move forward. To cause that to
happen, the bar must be positioned at an angle that
basically causes the Segway’s wheels to move backward. To do this, the bar must be tilted in the same direction as lifting the SEGWAY over a curbstone in the riderless mode. It is then impossible to enter the
vehicle because the bar strikes the hatchback lid.
In addition, controlling the Segway in this fashion is extremely difficult.

In order to properly load the Segway using a ramp, the
wheel motion has to be reversed temporarily in order
for the user to be able to stand behind the Segway and
guide it up the ramp using the bar in a position to
have very slow speed as it goes up to the edge of the
hatchback opening. In this way, the user has total
control as it goes up the ramp and enters the vehicle
without the bar striking the underside of the
hatchback lid.

Upon shutdown using the infokey, the reverse format is
cancelled and the normal startup method prevails
thereafter.

To reverse the order of motion in order to navigate
the loading ramp, the program would be initiated by
the user simply by pressing two buttons on the infokey
simultaneously for three seconds. One of the buttons
is the startup key and the other is any one of the
remaining three keys as your software designer
chooses.

[BillPaxton]

I'm missing something - see below:This feature is required in order to stop the wheels
from turning if one of the rider’s feet is trapped
between the mudguard and the console.
I don't understand how this would happen


However, when the Segway is not in motion and the
rider is stepping off the platform, the shutdown
occurs in the normal fashion by pressing the shutdown
button on the infokey. how would the glide know the difference between falling off and stepping off?In order to use the power of the i2 Segway to load it
into a vehicle using ramps, currently it is nearly impossible to go up the ramp using the power of the wheels in motion. I can't get a mental picture of what you are describing...I load my i167s all the time into my suv by a rather steep ramp (two tin hurrican shutters cut to 3.5' at a roughly 45 degree angle) and it requires no effort whatsoever, power assist does 100% of the climbing. I tilt it as its rolling up and in, and once its all the way in I shut it off and put my styrofoam scuba tank stops under the wheels and I'm off.

[Desert_Seg]

...I load my i167s all the time into my suv by a rather steep ramp (two tin hurrican shutters cut to 3.5' at a roughly 45 degree angle) and it requires no effort whatsoever, power assist does 100% of the climbing. I tilt it as its rolling up and in, and once its all the way in I shut it off and put my styrofoam scuba tank stops under the wheels and I'm off.

You are talking Gen1 and he is talking Gen2. Although there is power assist in Gen2 it does not work like Gen1 and isn't as functional when going into / out of a car.

Steven

[hellphish]

I don't understand what you are getting at with the first suggestion. Are you saying that the segway should shut off if it goes airborne while carrying a rider? I fail to see how shutting down in this situation would keep the user safer than if it just went on balancing.

[BillPaxton]

You are talking Gen1 and he is talking Gen2. Although there is power assist in Gen2 it does not work like Gen1 and isn't as functional when going into / out of a car.

Steven
thank you I figured they were the same. why would they change that I wonder?

[polo_pro]

Rayner, during my next trip into LA I'll stop by and address some of your concerns in person. Sometimes things get sorted out much quicker in person. A demonstration is worth a thousand words, eh?

(Now if I also take this opportunity to put a polo mallet in your hand, don't be surprised! 8^) 8^) 8^) Feel the balance....notice how it almost seems like an extension of your arm!)

ps - If you don't mind telling us, who'd you buy your i2 from? Any dealer should have handle a fair number of these questions/issues.

[RAY-NER]

I'm missing something - see below:
I don't understand how this would happen

++++ In my one and only fall from the i2, I was in a forward motion in the parking lot of a strip mall. Without watching what was ahead for a brief instant, the wheels met with the sharp rise of a speed bump that had no visible markings as most do. The i2 lost traction and I was thown to the ground on my right side, while my right foot was trapped because the right side of my lower calve was forced against the mudgard while my shoe was against the console as the Segway wheels were still turning and the left wheel was above ground. A customer in one of the stores raced to my rescue and twisted the i2 so I could remove my foot as I lay on the ground with severe pain in my ankle area.
+++++++++++++

how would the glide know the difference between falling off and stepping off?

++++++ I pointed out in the message that the instant shutoff would occur if the i2 was in forward motion. That differs from the stationary situation when stepping off.

+++++++++++++
I can't get a mental picture of what you are describing...I load my i167s all the time into my suv by a rather steep ramp (two tin hurrican shutters cut to 3.5' at a roughly 45 degree angle) and it requires no effort whatsoever, power assist does 100% of the climbing. I tilt it as its rolling up and in, and once its all the way in I shut it off and put my styrofoam scuba tank stops under the wheels and I'm off.

+++++ Your i167 has the power assist feature which i2 does not. The i2 will travel backward in the balance mode if you tilt the bar backward as the i2 is in the same position as when you stepped off. In order to move forward, you must tilt the bar forward to slowly move the i2 up the loading ramp. This is where the difficulty lies. Imagine where you must stand in order to guide the i2 up the ramp under this scenario. Besides that, the bar must be used to guide it up-ramp until the handle bar collides with the hatchback lid. This is a very difficult loading procedure as you can envision. Therefore, for ease of loading, the order of direction must be temporarily reversed as described.
++++++++++++++++++++
RAY-NER

[RAY-NER]

I don't understand what you are getting at with the first suggestion. Are you saying that the segway should shut off if it goes airborne while carrying a rider? I fail to see how shutting down in this situation would keep the user safer than if it just went on balancing.

+++++++++ I think I indicated that the shutoff must occur if the rider's feet are not on the platform while the wheels are still turning. In my spill, my left foot was off the platform and my right foot was caught but not pressing on the platform, so the switches under the pad were not depressed on either side. See my reply to Bill Paxton.

RAY-NER

[RAY-NER]

Rayner, during my next trip into LA I'll stop by and address some of your concerns in person. Sometimes things get sorted out much quicker in person. A demonstration is worth a thousand words, eh?

(Now if I also take this opportunity to put a polo mallet in your hand, don't be surprised! 8^) 8^) 8^) Feel the balance....notice how it almost seems like an extension of your arm!)

ps - If you don't mind telling us, who'd you buy your i2 from? Any dealer should have handle a fair number of these questions/issues.


++++ In your city of Santa Barbara, the Segway dealer is Jerry Mahoney whom I trust you know very well. I did not discuss this with him in advance of my submission to SEGWAY, INC., but he has an email copy of it.

RAY-NER

+++++++++++++++++++

[KSagal]

Ray-Ner

Excellent thoughts, well presented...

I might offer some considerations...

ON your concept of an immediate shut down, based on forward motion and no rider detects...

Many times I ride, and a void comes upon me... I consider a void the opposite of a bump. (A pot hole, a drop off a curb, the far side of a speed bump, etc) and when encountering those times, the segway can fall away from my feet, for a very short time. (Less than a second) If the shutdown were to occur at times like that, when I landed on the seg, it would have the tires going too slow, and my forward momentum would cause a 12 mph faceplant. I believe this to be worse than your mishap.

Regarding your mishap, I read your account of the event, and have a question and a guess, followed by a suggestion...

You stated that the wheels still had forward motion, and that the left wheel was off the ground. From your description, you were on the ground as well. Since only one wheel was on the ground, and both were spinning, long enough for someone nearby to run to your aid, I wonder why the seg was not traveling in circles? It must have had the left (airborn) wheel spinning and the right wheel skidding on the pavement.

You may or may not know, the segway will do an immediate shutdown if tipped over too far sideways. It seems to me that your machine must have been very close to falling over sideways as it was, all you had to do was lay it over the rest of the way, and it would have done two things... your foot would have come clear, and the machine would have shut down right away...

On your second concept of having a power assist, similar to the gen one machines, but in reverse of the standard lean=direction...

Using your plan, you engage your lean forward, move backward plan, you lean the leansteer a bit towards yourself as you stand behind your machine, as it is at the bottom of the ramps. It starts up the ramps...(So far I am with you) ... As the machine goes further up the ramp, the lean on the machine increases till the machine is basically horizontal when it is fully in the car... With your plan, as the seg climbs the ramp, and the lean steer is closer and closer to horizontal, the seg will increase in speed. By the time the seg base gets to the top of the ramp, it would be entering the car at 12 + mph! I would think this requires a very large foam pad at the seats...

What I do with my i2... (By the way I have an e-167 and an i2) with the i2, I use riderless balance mode to start the seg about 6 inches to a foot up the ramp. I then shut it down, while behind the seg, and just lower the leansteer frame to horizontal, and push the seg into the car like I would a lawnmower...

One thing that I have found, the transisition from the pavement to the ramp with no power is fairly hard, and much harder than just climbing the ramps, so I do not power down on the ground, but first make that transition from level pavement to inclined ramp, before I start using my own arm power...

I have also seen tapes of, and heard of others removing the lean steer frame, or the top half of it, depending on the size of the car, and then letting just the frame climb the ramps while in balance mode, without the leansteer frame... The base is well balanced, and will do this with no problem...

I do not remove the leansteer frame mostly because I am too lazy, but also because I have an SUV that I use...

I hope some of my considerations will add to your view on these topics, and you should try some of my suggestions, and they will hopefully serve you well, as they have done for me...

[RAY-NER]

Thanks Karl for your insight..... I would point out that by looking at the sequence of things in slow motion, (dropping off a curb as an example), there being no weight on the floor pads, the i2 would most likely fall away and return you to the floor pads in less than a second in time. Therefore, the shutdown should take that situation into account and retain normal wheel speed, continuing your travel. However, if you were thrown from the vehicle as I was, there is no longer any pressure on the floor pads and the switches below the pads return to the "no weight" condition. In that scenario, the shutdown should occur in about two seconds but not less than one second. I leave it to the Bedford NH scientists to make the timing change based upon their good judgement.......In the loading process, I should have indicated that I first start the i2, stand on it, make a 360 degree turn and then step off before attempting to guide it up the ramp under its own power. In that mode, I guide it up the ramp until the tires are centered on the edge of the trunk's frame, shutting power down and then pushing it slightly forward until it rolls over the lip and down (about 12 inches) into the trunk of the CRX-2. In doing it this way, I also have lowered the stick to its lowest level and restored the locking mechanism. Later, upon removing the i2 from the trunk, I then have to remove the hex head screw and return the stick to its original position. Under this scenario, there is no way that the i2 is ever going to enter the trunk at 12 MPH! The i2 does require the reversed motor situation as previously stated in order to allow it to move up the ramp on its own power with me standing behind it while on the way up. RAY-NER

[hellphish]

If the segway is traveling forward for two seconds with no rider, it shuts down anyway.

[KSagal]

RAY-NER,

I would have to see your method of loading to understand, but am happy to take you at your word...

However, you likely understand the method that I explained as well. If the factory were to use the software change that you suggested, where the input of lean were to derive a reverse action from the wheel motors, then my method of using loading ramps, and your software would indeed result in an unsafe situation...

If the factory were to implement any particular person's plan, they have to look out for all the other people who might use the machine a different way, and cause a problem...

Because of this, they necessarily have to program to the worst case instead of the best case.

I believe that you may well be able to safely use a reverse drive on the motors and safely load your machine into your trunk, but that does not mean that others will use it as safely. And I have been using my loading method without mishap for several years now. (I use the same method on my E-167, but because it has power assist, the effort is different)

Anyway, Good topic, and some fresh ideas. Thanks for jumping into the stew!

[RAY-NER]

Karl,
As usual, many sides of any issue come to the fore as thinking people become stimulated by the germ of an idea. In the final analysis, implementation is not acomplished by the originator of the idea. I'm only a single consumer out of thousands! The final word has to come from SEGWAY, INC., who make all final decisions about their products. I hope they will at least consider it for those of us who have i2's and loading ramps. The stew (as you put it) has in some way become thickened because of this topic. By the way, Groucho Marx once said something like "I would not join any club that would have me as a member". What are the qualifications needed to join your organization? (I hope the annual dues are reasonable!).
RAY-NER

[BillPaxton]

RAY-NER,
What if they changed the way power assist engages just a bit...you step off your glide and turn it completely off. Then tilt it backwards until the handles are nearly touching ground and turn it on in PA mode...if they could make it use the PA from the starting angle rather than perpendicular to ground, it would load easily, right?

BTW, having a series 1 I don't know your limitations. If you turn the glide on at, say a 80° angle, must you lean it forward past 90° in order to make it begin rolling forward?

+B

[KSagal]

Karl,
As usual, many sides of any issue come to the fore as thinking people become stimulated by the germ of an idea. In the final analysis, implementation is not acomplished by the originator of the idea. I'm only a single consumer out of thousands! The final word has to come from SEGWAY, INC., who make all final decisions about their products. I hope they will at least consider it for those of us who have i2's and loading ramps. The stew (as you put it) has in some way become thickened because of this topic. By the way, Groucho Marx once said something like "I would not join any club that would have me as a member". What are the qualifications needed to join your organization? (I hope the annual dues are reasonable!).
RAY-NER


The dues are a very reasonable $15.00 a year. Better than that, the first year (For purchasers of new segways) is on the house! You don't get to pay till the 2nd year...

Go to www.SegAmerica.org (http://www.SegAmerica.org) and follow the prompts. Looking forward to having you on board!

[RAY-NER]

Bill,

I was not aware of the PA feature in the earlier SEGWAY models. The i2 version lacks this feature entirely. It is probably a good idea for SEGWAY to consider adding the original PA feature to the i2. That would make it universal for all models. I can't imagine why they deleted it in the i2 version.

[Timezkware Tim]

Bill,

I was not aware of the PA feature in the earlier SEGWAY models. The i2 version lacks this feature entirely. It is probably a good idea for SEGWAY to consider adding the original PA feature to the i2. That would make it universal for all models. I can't imagine why they deleted it in the i2 version.

All wiring and controls have been eliminated from the CS in the i2. There's no way to safely control PA without the handheld grip that the gen 1's have. Once you feel the power and torque of the gen 1's PA, you'll see why you need to have absolute control to be safe. Maybe eventually the info key can be adapted for PA when the gen 3 comes out.

I'm no expert on Segways, I just read a lot of stuff here. There's also the issue of not being able to use the Segseat on gen 2s. Luckily, both generations are excellent for polo use.

Tim

[BillPaxton]

I can't imagine why its gone, It makes going up steps really simple. I think they must have just wanted to get rid of the thumb wheel entirely.

[KSagal]

RAY-NER,
What if they changed the way power assist engages just a bit...you step off your glide and turn it completely off. Then tilt it backwards until the handles are nearly touching ground and turn it on in PA mode...if they could make it use the PA from the starting angle rather than perpendicular to ground, it would load easily, right?

BTW, having a series 1 I don't know your limitations. If you turn the glide on at, say a 80° angle, must you lean it forward past 90° in order to make it begin rolling forward?

+B


There is a balance sensor in the i2. It will not go into balance mode till it is level and the leansteer frame is centered. There are LEDs that indicate level and straight.

It will not go into riderless balance mode till it has been in balance mode and then the rider detects all go light. Riderless balance mode is the mode most people are in by default when trying to load an i2.

At least, that is how it is for me and mine...


There is and has been this evolution toward riderless balance mode comming for some time now, in my opinion...

When the 167 series first came out, the standard for stairs and ramps was the PA mode. There were also complaints... (NO! on this forum? Really?!) yes, there were plenty... It was too slow, it was too fast, it was too sensitive, it was not sensitive enough, etc...

Over the years, with at least one software update, the characteristics of the way the machines acted when no rider was on has been modified...

I may not be the best at explaining this, because I have an E-167 and the vast majority are 1-167s, but ....

Anyway, in the beginning, the machine would not easily stay in balance mode (Riderless balance mode) after you dismounted... If you moved it just a few feet, if you gave it no inputs for 60 seconds, and other factors would have the machine shut off. (When no rider detects were depressed)

As the software was tweeked, some of those timings were modified, and the new standard for the keys was changed, regarding when the machine times out...

Anyone who does some research will find threads that detail how the prevailing preference became that people would leave the machine in balance mode, and climb stairs, or decend stairs by movements fore and aft of the entire Control shaft, instead of the steering collar. I believe this was because when climbing stairs, the larger surface and easier hand hold of not having to twist your wrist to help pull the machine up was an advantage.

Again, I am not the best at the search feature of this forum, but I do recall several threads that indicated that even with PA on the machine, and long before gen 2, people were using the balance mode to climb. (Exactly as the gen 2 works now...)

I climb stairs in riderless balance mode on both my gen 1 and gen 2 machines. I decend stairs the same way.

The only place that there is a problem with this, as I see it, is loading a car. Then the hatch/trunk lid gets in the way of the handlebars...

Now, as for why it is not there, I can only imagine it is because the device that it is attached to is no longer there.

If Power Assist, of the sort on gen 1 was put onto gen 2, then moving the leansteer to the right or left would make the machine move forward or back.

One other point, there is no steering while in Power Assist. A person steers by forcing the machine while using the handlebars.

If you were to try to do that with a gen 2, as I said in the previous paragraph, once removed, you would affect the fore and aft movements....

Lots to consider.

Good discussion.

[RAY-NER]

Karl,

As one loads the i2 version (your Gen2) up a loading ramp, there is no need to have the stick provide a right / left movement whatsoever as long as the ramps are properly spaced and parallel to each other. So, your thoughts are close to what is needed to cause a forward motion up the ramp at a speed determined by the position of the stick (either right or left movement).

Your envisioned feature must also be included with the temporary reversal of the i2's motors so that the stick handle is in your hands and the platform is ahead of you, facing the entrance to the vehicle.

Are we onto something here that Segway engineers would have no problem accepting?

RAY-NER

[BillPaxton]

Last night there was a slight rain around 8pm, and around 9 my wife & I glided to the community post office and got the mail, then did our customary tour of the neighborhood, skateboard park, ant etc. I zipped up through the garage, across the patio and stepped off, one button push, and started to walk up into our stupid self closing door and it happened.
The wheels spun because they were slightly wet (I do this every single night of my life, mind you) and for whatever reason, most likely operator error, it bounced back just enough to make me lean toward it and down like in a bow, causing me to reverse the grip just enough to send the thing AWAY from me at alarming speed. LET GO I thought, but my hand didn't listen and I ended up in the air looking down at the back of my handlebars and splatted down on my right side of my toucas. QUITE sore today, but the point is, as used to my PA as I am it got away from me and caused pain.
I find this very ironic in that Tim wrote "no way to safely control a seg in PA mode" the same afternoon, and I snorted out loud and laughed. I'm sorry Tim, and so is my toucas.

[KSagal]

Bill, have you tried to climb those same stairs in balance mode?

You should at least try it...

Just glide to the bottom step, as usual.

get off, the machine will stay against the step, as many people park their segs this way...

Walk around to the front, up a step or two...

Just hold the handlebar, and pull it slightly toward you. The seg will climb the step. (It might spin the tire, but it will be in the correct direction) If the step is too large, and the seg cannot climb it on it's own, you can still pull up just a bit as you are pulling forward...

It is easier to do than to type...

Report back.

Always try to keep the shiny side up! Hope you feel better soon.

[KSagal]

Karl,

As one loads the i2 version (your Gen2) up a loading ramp, there is no need to have the stick provide a right / left movement whatsoever as long as the ramps are properly spaced and parallel to each other. So, your thoughts are close to what is needed to cause a forward motion up the ramp at a speed determined by the position of the stick (either right or left movement).

Your envisioned feature must also be included with the temporary reversal of the i2's motors so that the stick handle is in your hands and the platform is ahead of you, facing the entrance to the vehicle.

Are we onto something here that Segway engineers would have no problem accepting?

RAY-NER


I don't know you, and I assume you have an i2. Try pushing your i2 by standing in front of it, having it face you, and have it back up... Even on a normal parking lot, because every time I do, for whatever reason, the base wiggles all over the place. I can control it by twisting on the handlebar to compensate, but would not be able to do that if the movement of the handlebar caused the machine to move fore and aft.

I believe that this is a good topic. I don't mean to be obstinate RAY-NER, but I have not been convinced that this is a good idea... I would be very surprised if the engineers at Segway install this particular feature, as it has been described here... They may have a better idea, however.

I believe that if you go to your dealer or to someone with both generations of machines, you may be able to become more familiar with the characteristics. Next time we can get together, we should and experiment with some of the ideas we have kicked around...

Good luck with this topic or others...

[RAY-NER]

Karl,

I have spoken to my dealer in Santa Barbara (CA) and his notion is that my idea to reverse the direction of the motors for the purpose of loading the i2 via a 45 degree ramp is the bottom line solution. So I'm encouraged that he plans to take the issue up with top brass at SEGWAY. I will make a special trip to S.B. on 2-17 to demonstrate the difficulty in loading as I've stated here on this board. Hopefully, SEGWAY, INC. is not one of those "not invented here" companies that reject any and all outside suggestions. RAY-NER

[KSagal]

Karl,

I have spoken to my dealer in Santa Barbara (CA) and his notion is that my idea to reverse the direction of the motors for the purpose of loading the i2 via a 45 degree ramp is the bottom line solution. So I'm encouraged that he plans to take the issue up with top brass at SEGWAY. I will make a special trip to S.B. on 2-17 to demonstrate the difficulty in loading as I've stated here on this board. Hopefully, SEGWAY, INC. is not one of those "not invented here" companies that reject any and all outside suggestions. RAY-NER


Good luck.

I caution you. You have not convinced me. If you are equally unable to convince someone else, it may not be indicative of a "not invented here" attitude. It may simply be that people see things differently than you.

I also believe that Segway Inc is a very responsive company, to safety issues especially. They may not seem so responsive to nitche issues, as the design to consumer timeframe can be quite a long time.

The next time you are on this coast, or I am on yours, I would love to debate this further...

[RAY-NER]

Karl, I'm always attentive to safety needs as you can judge from earlier post concerning my fall from the i2 resulting in a somewhat painful right ankle for several weeks. I realize it was my fault for not seeing the speed bump ahead of me, but after lying prone and the motors were still active, I had a moment of near panic. I later began to think about a way to power down in less than one second and my suggestion was then posted to this group. I followed your good advice and contacted my dealer about the loading idea. He was quite impressed with the solution so the loading suggestion has been ratified by 100% of the SEGWAY dealers in Santa Barbara. I am only the messenger with just a suggestion that might be helpful. As usual, it's up to the SEGWAY scientists to make the final judgement. RAY-NER

[cruiter]

The one time I was stupid enough to hot dog on my i2 getting air time over driveway cutouts and looked away when hitting one at 45 degree angle, the segway went left, I continued straight (all in air) and "Max" did shut down somewhere in the process. So did I with a broken wrist (to avoid face plant on concrete). It does do a safety shut down.

A couple of times a week, I load Max into the back of our RX300 using the seg ramps and going forward (not reverse). 1st remove the top of LSF and keep info key in your hand. Pat the foot pad to get it going and power it forward up ramps and into car. Then use info key to shut it off and replace top of LSF after leening it down. It fits snug as a bug in a rug in our car. Comes back down the same way, forward (though I have done it in reverse). It's not a problem, just requires thinking it through prior to doing it by yourself.

[slowride]

I put my 78 year old mother on an i167 with little worry that she would crash it.

The Gen 2 was a little different to get used too at first and I crashed it trying to go backwards. It took off on me like "Christina" the car and kept trying to run over me while I was on the ground. It did not shut down. I had bruises for a month.

I wouldn't even think of letting my mother get on one. It's strictly the Gen 1 for her and all other old people that ask me.

[RAY-NER]

Today I visited my dealer in Santa Barbara who had not yet seen a loading ramp for a SEGWAY. After positioning my pair of loading ramps ramps at the correct spacing for the i2's tires, he tried to use the wheel's power to bring it up the ramp. Instinctively, he had to stand with his back to the CRX-2 while trying to guide it up under power. The stick is angled toward the underside of the hatch lid which prevents a full ascent. He powered it down and lifted it back to the street. I folded the two ramps and stored them on the floor while he single handedly picked up the i2 and placed into the vehicle. He agrees wholeheartedly that using a ramp to load an i2 into a vehicle is nearly impossible. He agrees that a temporary reversal of the motors is required so that the i2 can climb the ramp with the person standing behind the i2 facing the vehicle and then guiding it all the way up the ramp at a slow speed. Upon power down, the motors would then revert to their normal operation. To unload, no wheel power is needed as the i2 is pulled towards the ramp using the stick which is in the correct position for removal. RAY-NER

[KSagal]

I have loaded my i2 into my Buick Rendesvous dozens of times, and I use ramps most of the time. I descibed it in an earlier post. Since I have done it several times, I would have to say that I believe it to be very much possible.

I gave details in the past, but for brevity's sake, I will say here that I do not use power the whole way... And I do not need it...

Still, I think this idea of a power assist mode has some merit, if the details can be worked out...

[Sharkie]

I had the opportunity to try out an i2 for a week a while back, and did quite a bit of testing putting it into a vehicle with ramps, and found it to be a little tricky at first, but not an insurmountable problem. If you are finding the lean steer frame too tall, remove it, as the unit will run just fine without it. You may run into a problem if you are on a slope, but in riderless balance mode, the steering isn't as sensitive anyway. With the LSF on, and lowered all the way, I found it would go into most sport ute type of vehicles, and it wasn't too tough. Have the Segway pointing away from the vehicle if you have limited height as you can get it most of the way in before the LSF gets in the way. Don't try and move it too fast, and remember the end that has the LSF is the end to control the direction of. In other words, if the Segway is pointing away from the vehicle, you control the end pointing AWAY from the vehicle with your steering inputs. I'm sorry, but I just can't see having a lot of difficulty doing it if you take your time.

HTH
Jim

[iRwheelman]

wow, please don't encourage Segway Inc to make our Segways shut down any more than they do already. I have fun on my segways every now and then, jumping a sweet hill out by the river, ive got video on youtube, just search for segway jump. It doesnt look like that big of a deal on screen, but when you're on the x2 and coasting through the air, you definatly don't want your segway to just shut down because theres no contact with the ground.

my 1 1/2 cents

the other 1/2 was disabled jumping segways.

[cruiter]

Hi Jim,
Since the new ramps came out, I regularly put my i2 into the back of our RX300. Like anything, the 1st few attempts were awkward but got easier with expereience. I find it pretty easy now to undo the flaps on bag, remove the "new" knob and lift the LSF bars out of LSF. I keep the info key in my hand and power it up (forward usually up ramps) and shut it down with infokey. Then I just slide LSF bars back into the LSF and lay it down. It snuggles perfectly in a port/starboard fashion as if it was designed to. The up/down ramp and positioning now takes about a minute plus the time to fold/unfold ramps and place them. Plus when in the car, the ramps fold nicely right under the LSF between the base and bag. Matter of fact it's so easy now, every time I leave the house by myself, I'm thinking of ways to enjoy it while gone.

Jim
I had the opportunity to try out an i2 for a week a while back, and did quite a bit of testing putting it into a vehicle with ramps, and found it to be a little tricky at first, but not an insurmountable problem. If you are finding the lean steer frame too tall, remove it, as the unit will run just fine without it. You may run into a problem if you are on a slope, but in riderless balance mode, the steering isn't as sensitive anyway. With the LSF on, and lowered all the way, I found it would go into most sport ute type of vehicles, and it wasn't too tough. Have the Segway pointing away from the vehicle if you have limited height as you can get it most of the way in before the LSF gets in the way. Don't try and move it too fast, and remember the end that has the LSF is the end to control the direction of. In other words, if the Segway is pointing away from the vehicle, you control the end pointing AWAY from the vehicle with your steering inputs. I'm sorry, but I just can't see having a lot of difficulty doing it if you take your time.

HTH
Jim

[Sharkie]

I agree Jim, it's not a big deal, I can't understand the fellow saying that both he and his dealer could not do it. Perhaps they have challenges we don't know about, but I don't find it difficult at all. I'm using ramps that I made myself, out of 1 by 4 lumber. They don't have sides on them, so if the Segway goes sideways or turns, it's possible to fall off the ramps. This has never happened, so it would seem to me that there is no need to change anything.

Jim

[RAY-NER]

In terms as stated, "nearly impossible" was used to denote the difficulty a first timer faces when loading an i2 using ramps. It's even more tricky trying to get it out since there's a 12 inch drop into the Honda CRX-2 which prevents a 71 year old Seg guy from comfortably managing the removal by himself. The instruction manual has a blank page when seeking help in this regard, so Yankee ingenuity came into play, resulting in the motor reversal scheme which has been suggested to the powers that be at SEGWAY. Trial and error resulting in a learning curve may be OK for some, but if there's a no risk, better way, why not attempt to have SEGWAY adopt it? RAY-NER

[cruiter]

Didn't know about your drop, that of course presents a challenge. But didn't you post somewhere that you made a wooden ramp to facilitate getting it out? How is that working out? Probably a lot of folks that use trunks would be interested in that concept.In terms as stated, "nearly impossible" was used to denote the difficulty a first timer faces when loading an i2 using ramps. It's even more tricky trying to get it out since there's a 12 inch drop into the Honda CRX-2 which prevents a 71 year old Seg guy from comfortably managing the removal by himself. The instruction manual has a blank page when seeking help in this regard, so Yankee ingenuity came into play, resulting in the motor reversal scheme which has been suggested to the powers that be at SEGWAY. Trial and error resulting in a learning curve may be OK for some, but if there's a no risk, better way, why not attempt to have SEGWAY adopt it? RAY-NER

[RAY-NER]

The design for the inner ramp has been submitted to my very able carpenter who will have it finished shortly. Stay tuned for the inauguration. RAY-NER

[KSagal]

Some years back, the wife wanted to spend $75 on a plastic platform she could step onto as an exercise... I am too cheap for that, so I made her a wooden one, actually two. (one with 2x4 for a 4 inch step and one with 2x8 for an 8 inch step)

I am not only cheap, but also a pac rat. Since she used the steps for a total of 2 weeks, I had these two platforms with nothing to do...

In my SUV, I have a floor storage unit. It works like a fake subfloor with storage compartments in it, and the top is carpeted like the floor of the car. With the rear seats up, it is hard to even notice, but when I fold the rear seats down and forward, there is an 8 inch drop for the last 18 inches...

Luckily, I have a wooden platform that I put in there, and a level floor surface for both segs, inside. (I also use my own ramps, among other things, made from 5/4 lumber.)

I also have a flat lift that fits into the trailer hitch, and lifts the segs level from parking lot to the level of the inside deck, as well as segway hitch hauler.

I have found the ramps are the easiest and quickest, if you have room inside the vehicle.

[RAY-NER]

The first test was made today and it was a success. I easily removed the i2 singlehandedly from the interior of my Honda CRX-2. It's still very tricky to get it into the trunk, but if SEGWAY INC. can reverse the motors for loading purposes, all problems would be solved. RAY-NER

[cruiter]

Pretty Kool
With the bars off as pictured, couldn't you back it up the ramps in riderless balance mode then shut it down with info key when at top of ramp? That's sort of how I do mine when loading it into the RX300. The top of the LSF just touches the frame of the lift gate so I'm careful and just lay it down at that point to avoid scratching the car. But if you put yours in backwards (I've done it), all you'd have to do is pull it back up the trunk ramp then power it up to get it down outside ramps. Does that make any sense?The first test was made today and it was a success. I easily removed the i2 singlehandedly from the interior of my Honda CRX-2. It's still very tricky to get it into the trunk, but if SEGWAY INC. can reverse the motors for loading purposes, all problems would be solved. RAY-NER

[hellphish]

Reversing the motor direction would be catastrophic, I'll try to show you why.


Imagine you are standing infront of your i2. The i2 is level.

You gently tilt the handlebars toward you, and the i2's wheels go backwards.

You haven't moved yet, but the segway is starting to go backwards, away from you. Since you haven't moved and are still holding the handlebars, the tilting angle will increase.

The tilting angle increases, and the wheels spin backwards even faster. The segway is getting away from you. Holding on to the handlebar will only make it worse.

To stop the wheels from spinning, you need to get the segway level again somehow. You would have to chase the segway down. Obviously this is less than ideal.

[cruiter]

Doesn't work that way for me or I'm having a tough time trying to understand just what you're trying to explan. Any chance you could shoot another photo and post it of what you are describing?Reversing the motor direction would be catastrophic, I'll try to show you why.


Imagine you are standing infront of your i2. The i2 is level.

You gently tilt the handlebars toward you, and the i2's wheels go backwards.

You haven't moved yet, but the segway is starting to go backwards, away from you. Since you haven't moved and are still holding the handlebars, the tilting angle will increase.

The tilting angle increases, and the wheels spin backwards even faster. The segway is getting away from you. Holding on to the handlebar will only make it worse.

To stop the wheels from spinning, you need to get the segway level again somehow. You would have to chase the segway down. Obviously this is less than ideal.

[RAY-NER]

The genious that can possibly analyze this situation at SEGWAY, INC. will conclude that for the purpose of moving an i2 up a 45 degree loading ramp, only a constant low speed of two or three inches per second is the only rate that the wheels need to turn. In that scenario, the angle of the stick would not alter the speed whatsoever. In addition, the left/right movement of the stick as the i2 creeps up the ramp is cancelled so that no possible movement of the stick could take place that would place the tires outside of the width of the ramp. While holding the infokey in hand during the loading process, the i2 is powered off as it reaches 3/4 of the way down the interior ramp. The rest is a short distance to its final resting at the bottom of the ramp.
To unload, simply pull back on the stick causing the i2 to roll up the ramp and walk slowly backwards as you control the downward movement on the outside ramp. Powering on then cancels the reverse motor condition and you are ready to step on the i2 in balance mode.
RAY-NER

[KSagal]

Reversing the motor direction would be catastrophic, I'll try to show you why.


Imagine you are standing infront of your i2. The i2 is level.

You gently tilt the handlebars toward you, and the i2's wheels go backwards.

You haven't moved yet, but the segway is starting to go backwards, away from you. Since you haven't moved and are still holding the handlebars, the tilting angle will increase.

The tilting angle increases, and the wheels spin backwards even faster. The segway is getting away from you. Holding on to the handlebar will only make it worse.

To stop the wheels from spinning, you need to get the segway level again somehow. You would have to chase the segway down. Obviously this is less than ideal.



You just invented segway brakes! As it continues to run away, you fall flat on your face, and your lower lip collects gravel, and as it pushes more and more earth, the braking affect is in full swing...

(this is just a joke. I do not endorse any person using a reverse motor controlled segway as a tow machine to allow body surfing on gravel... That should only be done in loose sand or on wet grass.... No, wait,,, err... Nevermind. Do not try this at home... or anywhere else...)

[hellphish]

Doesn't work that way for me or I'm having a tough time trying to understand just what you're trying to explan. Any chance you could shoot another photo and post it of what you are describing?

Originally Posted by hellphish
"Reversing the motor direction would be catastrophic, I'll try to show you why."

It was a hypothetical scenario.

[ryan_walters]

I also think having motor drive direction reversed would be catastrophic.

Think about how it works now.

While in RBM, you lean it forward a little. The motors drive forward, resulting in a DEcrease in platform angle. This brings the motors to a stop again. Leading the handlebars around, forward / backward, and left / right causes it to follow you around like an obedient puppy. The motors movement caused by the angle in the platform cancels out the angle. Very controllable.

Now if a slight angle caused the wheels to go backwards to how they normally go, that movement would cause an even GREATER angle, which would put even MORE power to the wheels, which would increase the speed at which the angle is increasing, even more power, speed, etc, etc.. (sort of like audio feedback with mic and speaker)

I've loaded my i2 into and out of my vehicle quite a number of times. I don't have to take the LSF off at all as long as I 'back' the seg up. Front of the seg facing me as I lean it backwards to get it to 'backup' the ramps. Also, you NEED steering control available when doing this to make sure it gets in right. I've seen an I2 loaded into a suv that was quite high off the ground. The ramps were at well over 45 deg, probably more like 60 deg. It climbed them just fine.

[RAY-NER]

I thought my last post detailed three major points. (A) In the motor reverse mode, the max. speed is two to three inches per second regardless of the angle of the stick. (B) The stick's position left or right does not alter the direction. (C) Upon shutoff using the infokey, (A) and (B) above are cancelled, reverting back to normal startup next time. I foresee no catastrophe here! RAY-NER

[hellphish]

I think you are definintely on to something there with the limited speed.

[ryan_walters]

If it has to move at a certain speed, regarless of incline of slope, then it has to blindly put out potentially an unlimited amount of power (within operating limits of motors). I could see this causing accidents where too puch power it delivered to the wheels to maintain 3 inches per second, even though it's hit something / someone. I hear cries of "it ran me over at 3 inches per second, and there was nothing I could do about it". Normal RBM, that just can't happen.

I still disagree about steering. You need to be able to make small corrections as you're going up the ramp.

[PeteInLongBeach]

Perhaps the hatchback of a CRX is not the ideal area to load a fully assembled Segway into... I can't imagine it. As in many situations, use the right tool for the job.

I take the CS off of mine, and lift or flip the Segway base into the front seat of my Honda Insight. I think Pam used to do this as well. No problem, and no need to redesign what is already quite well designed for a variety of dynamic conditions.

[RAY-NER]

Rather than think of this as a redesign, consider it as only an added feature that is an aid to those who can't lift an i2 platform onto the front seat. I'm a diabetic, age 71 with little ability to do any heavy lifting by myself, thus, Yankee Ingenuity steps forth.

RAY-NER