R.i.p.

[JohnM]

The website-which-must-not-be-named finally died on 1/10/07.

What a long strange trip it's been.

[vmlemon]

Eh, the Dareway or Q Chariot sites? ;)

[KSagal]

Some of us might miss the pink fur. Not me, but someone else might.

[JohnM]

Eh, the Dareway or Q Chariot sites? ;) theitquestion.com , aka, TIQ

Frank created Segway Chat as a refuge from the unmoderated mayhem that made civil discourse at TIQ impossible. Check out some of the earliest SegChat postings (http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=32) to see how thankful people were.

[JohnM]

Some of us might miss the pink fur. Not me, but someone else might.

Oh, that's the-other-website-which-must-not-be-named. Unfortunately the pink fur site lives on, but it's just the I-man talking to himself.

[KSagal]

Oh, that's the-other-website-which-must-not-be-named. Unfortunately the pink fur site lives on, but it's just the I-man talking to himself.


Sorry, my bad... I never was good at knowing what we are talking about when we go out of our way to not talk about what we are talking about...

[polo_pro]

Sorry, my bad... I never was good at knowing what we are talking about when we go out of our way to not talk about what we are talking about...

Well, that's the second "lol" you got out of me today, Karl. I'd say you're improving as a leader. You're finally getting away from the "consensous building" and "facilitor" roles and using humor to distract us from our bickering! And in that shift, you'll find the reigns of power/leadership.

As far as I've been able to tell, the real trick is using the humor to subtly knudge people along lines that they need to go for the good of the group. But having met you in person at Segfest, I think you already know how to do this in person. The shift is doing it in text when you're online.

ps - My mom was once a department head supervising 50+ people (after being a homemaker for 15 years). Someone asked her how she'd developed the skills that got her to that position. She responded with, "Well...I raised kids!" Unfortunately, some people might think she was belittling her co-workers, and I'm certainly not trying to say SC members are like kids. But having been the kid in my mom's story, I could appreciate what she was saying. Sometimes we all get too focused on something, and diversion/humor is the best way to move people past whatever is troubling them (so it can either work itself out naturally or just come up again later when we're better able to handle it). Hmph...this postscript got a bit longer than I intended...

[nickyboy]

Sorry, my bad... I never was good at knowing what we are talking about when we go out of our way to not talk about what we are talking about...

I was lost at the start of this thread. I guess it's a mainland USA thing and does'nt travel.

I guess as its gone (whatever it was) it's nothing to worry about, it's just that as I get older I seem to miss the point more.........is it me?

Nick

[Five-Flags]

I guess as its gone (whatever it was) it's nothing to worry about, it's just that as I get older I seem to miss the point more.........is it me?

Nick

No, Nick. It isn't you. I seem to have the same indications. Since it OBVIOUSLY can't be us, it must be some external factor -- perhaps global warming or something. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[JohnM]

Nick,

And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

Henry V, Act 4, Scene 3 Its not a USA thing, its a historical thing. Only folks who were here in the formative days of SC, with battlescars from TIQ, will appreciate TIQ's final death. Imagine a forum so vicious that I got flamed for being PRO Segway. Its a triumph-of-good-over-evil thing.
There's not many of the original SC crew actively posting anymore: They've disappeared too. Makes me feel really old....


HEY, DUPA! ARE YOU OUT THERE? TIME TO COME IN FROM THE COLD!

[polo_pro]

Nick,

Its not a USA thing, its a historical thing. Only folks who were here in the formative days of SC, with battlescars from TIQ, will appreciate TIQ's final death. Imagine a forum so vicious that I got flamed for being PRO Segway. Its a triumph-of-good-over-evil thing.
There's not many of the original SC crew actively posting anymore: They've disappeared too. Makes me feel really old....

I'm sure those flamers on TIQ ended up settling down, moving on


...and getting jobs at Engadget (or Gizmodo). 8^) 8^) 8^)

[JohnM]

I'm sure those flamers on TIQ ended up settling down, moving on

...and getting jobs at Engadget (or Gizmodo). 8^) 8^) 8^)

Nope. The only familiar voice I've ever heard at Engadget and Gizmodo is our own Phil Torrone, aka pt, former Segway Chat administrator with 2,496 posts to his credit.
pt was entremely active on SC its first 2 years, then packed up and left, taking down his popular 'Book of Seg' website at the same time. His abrupt departure was never fully explained. Currently he resides at http://makezine.com/ .

[Brooster]

Yep, it's been a long road, and it's increasingly becoming overgrown by moss and thickets.

The It Question (which was actually mentioned on the Art Bell Coast to Coast AM radio show) spawned a few Web sites.

There's www.dweebcabal.com (still in existence, but really nothing having to do with Segway), founded by Pappy and J10.

There was www.gingerchat.com (dead for many a year), founded by Spliff.

And then there was SC ... founded by a few guys ... myself included.

And then there was the Yahoo "Segway Open" chat thing, which I guess still exists.

And then there was Mr. Leisure's "The Red Key," which of course is now history ... that was a huge loss to this community.

And Itsi's New York site, with pictures of some scary-looking naked broad on a rooftop ... hopefully also history ...

Which brings us back to SC.

It's been fun here, but I guess my thought is--here in 2007--that the whole Segway thing is slowly dying. I don't ride my Seg much anymore--it's illegal in my state--and it's like a museum piece in the corner. But I like having it and looking at it!

Life goes on, and hopefully SC will for a while as well. It's a great bunch of people united by the love for a really cool machine ... which was never marketed properly ... and therefore never really had a chance.

[Timezkware Tim]

Just stopping by this wake to note that although some Segsites have passed on, The number of Seg posters continues to grow, as do the number of Seggers. :)

Tim

[nickyboy]

Just stopping by this wake to note that although some Segsites have passed on, The number of Seg posters continues to grow, as do the number of Seggers. :)

Tim

Your right Tim.

Reading Broosters post had me thinking the whole Segway thing was on a downward path not upward.

Whilst I'm still very new to the whole Segway thing, I do think that its all going through a "rough patch" at the moment, what with the current spate of "Bans" etc.

I'm very posative about it, otherwise I would not be investing my time and money in setting up the business.

I have to say that during my information gathering on the Internet I have yet to find a site that has offered so much information, both posative and negative. I for one like to know of the downs as well as the up's of a product before I commit to it.

Nick

[Timezkware Tim]

As I've said before, I don't know what the fate of the Segway will be, but as long as the following three things are true, they will always be around:

1. They work great.
2. They are safe to operate.
3. People who get them, love 'em.

If they broke down, constantly caused accidents or customer dissatisfaction, their future would be iffy. So far, the only critics are people who imagine that they might be bad. In reality, the truth will win.

The only thing that may happen is that Inc will decide that their sales growth isn't fast enough, and the company gets sold. No one will take this technology away, though. It's here to stay. I'm sure the advertizing world would like digital video recorders (that can bypass TV commercials) to go away, but once you have Tivo, there's no going back.The more people become familiar with Segways, the smaller in number it's critics will be.

More bans will undoubtedly happen, but they will be outnumbered by laws supporting the Segway. Mostly because most laws are based on facts and logic, not some municipality's imagination.

CVC Sec. 313: "This section shall become operative on March 1, 2003, and
remain in effect only until January 1, 2008, and as of that date is
repealed, unless a later enacted statute, that is enacted before
January 1, 2008, deletes or extends that date".


The State of California will either repeal or extend the EPAMD laws at the end of the year. When the law is extended, it will make a huge statement in favor of Segway. Tiny city councils may ban Segways for no logical reason, but if someone wants to change the CA vehicle code to ban Segways, they'll actually have to come up with a logical reason why. I'm betting that they won't find one. Larger cities like San Francisco will have a tough time banning Segways today after 4½ years of no significant accident record emerging. Here's more of our state's vehicle code:

Article 6. Electric Personal Assistive Mobility Devices

21280. (a) The Legislature finds and declares the following:

(1) This state has severe traffic congestion and air pollution
problems, particularly in its cities, and finding ways to reduce
these problems is of paramount importance.

(2) Electric personal assistive mobility devices that meet the
definition contained in Section 313 operate solely on electricity and
employ advances in technology to safely integrate the user in
pedestrian transportation.

(3) Electric personal assistive mobility devices would enable
California businesses, public officials, and individuals to travel
farther and carry more without the use of traditional vehicles,
thereby promoting gains in productivity, minimizing environmental
impacts, and facilitating better use of public ways.


EPAMDs aren't just legal here, they're encouraged. Transportation problems aren't going away; neither are EPAMDs. Those aren't Kamen colored glasses talking, that's a determined Segger speaking.

Tim

[QuadSquad]

The State of California will either repeal or extend the EPAMD laws at the end of the year. When the law is extended, it will make a huge statement in favor of Segway. Tiny city councils may ban Segways for no logical reason, but if someone wants to change the CA vehicle code to ban Segways, they'll actually have to come up with a logical reason why. I'm betting that they won't find one. Larger cities like San Francisco will have a tough time banning Segways today after 4½ years of no significant accident record emerging. Tim

Tim,

There's just one little problem with your theory, in California for Segways to continue to be legal for the nondisabled community after December 31, 2007 the California Legislature must pass additional legislation. If they do nothing then the right for you to use your Segway in California under this law disappears.

The anti-Segway crowd need not present anything, it can die just from a lack of interest. The passage of enabling isolation in states all across the country was based in the enthusiasm of what the Segway would do for society as a whole. Depending upon your perspective that enthusiasm may no longer exist in the current legislature.

It is incumbent on every Segway owner in California and any that support its use to get involved, I mean really involved not just posting on the Internet, in securing the passage of legislation continuing the current environment post-December 31, 2007.

[Timezkware Tim]

I'm with you, Quad, but since there's potentially no EPAMD law after 1/1/08 unless the current one is extended, how would an EPAMD be handled if it doesn't exist on the books?

Serious question. It may not be legal after 1/1/08 without a law, but how would it be illegal if there's no classification?

Anyway, you can bet that there will be a push for an amended law here, and I believe there will be enough support to make it happen.

Tim

PS: Hey, Brooster, thanks for bringing up the Yahoo Meetup site. I didn't know about that. I just joined and sent a shout out to the local Seggers signed in there to join us for Polo, lol.

[JohnM]

Serious question. It may not be legal after 1/1/08 without a law, but how would it be illegal if there's no classification?

But there is a new classification, due to go into effect on January 1, 2008 just when the EPAMD classification dies. Chance? I think not.

(Since this is becoming an 'On Topic' thread, I'm moving it to the Segway HT forum.)

CALIFORNIA CODES
VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 100-680

407.5. (a) A "motorized scooter" is any two-wheeled device that has
handlebars, has a floorboard that is designed to be stood upon when
riding, and is powered by an electric motor. This device may also
have a driver seat that does not interfere with the ability of the
rider to stand and ride and may also be designed to be powered by
human propulsion. For purposes of this section, a motorcycle, as
defined in Section 400, a motor-driven cycle, as defined in Section
405, or a motorized bicycle or moped, as defined in Section 406, is
not a motorized scooter.
(b) A device meeting the definition in subdivision (a) that is
powered by a source other than electrical power is also a motorized
scooter.
(c) (1) A manufacturer of motorized scooters shall provide a
disclosure to buyers that advises buyers that the buyers' existing
insurance policies may not provide coverage for these scooters and
that the buyers should contact their insurance company or insurance
agent to determine if coverage is provided.
(2) The disclosure required under paragraph (1) shall meet both of
the following requirements:
(A) The disclosure shall be printed in not less than 14-point
boldface type on a single sheet of paper that contains no information
other than the disclosure.
(B) The disclosure shall include the following language in capital
letters:
"YOUR INSURANCE POLICIES MAY NOT PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR ACCIDENTS
INVOLVING THE USE OF THIS SCOOTER. TO DETERMINE IF COVERAGE IS
PROVIDED, YOU SHOULD CONTACT YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY OR AGENT."

(d) (1) A manufacturer of motorized scooters shall provide a
disclosure to a buyer that advises the buyer that the buyer may not
modify or alter the exhaust system to cause that system to amplify or
create an excessive noise, or to fail to meet applicable emission
requirements.
(2) The disclosure required under paragraph (1) shall meet both of
the following requirements:
(A) The disclosure shall be printed in not less than 14-point
boldface type on a single sheet of paper that contains no information
other than the disclosure.
(B) The disclosure shall include the following language in capital
letters:
"YOU MAY NOT MODIFY OR ALTER THE EXHAUST SYSTEM OF THIS SCOOTER
TO CAUSE IT TO AMPLIFY OR CREATE EXCESSIVE NOISE PER VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 21226, OR TO FAIL TO MEET APPLICABLE EMISSION REQUIREMENTS
PER VEHICLE CODE 27156."

(e) This section shall become operative on January 1, 2008.

CALIFORNIA CODES
VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 21220-21235




21220. (a) The Legislature finds and declares both of the
following:
(1) This state has severe traffic congestion and air pollution
problems, particularly in its cities, and finding ways to reduce
these problems is of paramount importance.
(2) Motorized scooters that meet the definition of Section 407.5
produce no emissions and, therefore, do not contribute to increased
air pollution or increase traffic congestion.
(b) It is the intent of the Legislature in adding this article to
promote the use of alternative low-emission or no-emission
transportation.



21220.5. For the purposes of this article, a motorized scooter is
defined in Section 407.5.



21221. Every person operating a motorized scooter upon a highway
has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to
the driver of a vehicle by this division, including, but not limited
to, provisions concerning driving under the influence of alcoholic
beverages or drugs, and by Division 10 (commencing with Section
20000), Division 17 (commencing with Section 40000.1), and Division
18 (commencing with Section 42000), except those provisions which, by
their very nature, can have no application.



21221.5. Notwithstanding Section 21221, it is unlawful for any
person to operate a motorized scooter upon a highway while under the
influence of an alcoholic beverage or any drug, or under the combined
influence of an alcoholic beverage and any drug. Any person
arrested for a violation of this section may request to have a
chemical test made of the person's blood or breath for the purpose of
determining the alcoholic or drug content of that person's blood
pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 23612, and, if so requested,
the arresting officer shall have the test performed. A conviction of
a violation of this section shall be punished by a fine of not more
than two hundred fifty dollars ($250).



21223. (a) Every motorized scooter operated upon any highway during
darkness shall be equipped with the following:
(1) Except as provided in subdivision (b), a lamp emitting a white
light which, while the motorized scooter is in motion, illuminates
the highway in front of the operator and is visible from a distance
of 300 feet in front and from the sides of the motorized scooter.
(2) Except as provided in subdivision (c), a red reflector on the
rear that is visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear when
directly in front of lawful upper beams of headlamps on a motor
vehicle.
(3) A white or yellow reflector on each side visible from the
front and rear of the motorized scooter from a distance of 200 feet.

(b) A lamp or lamp combination, emitting a white light, attached
to the operator and visible from a distance of 300 feet in front and
from the sides of the motorized scooter, may be used in lieu of the
lamp required by paragraph (1) of subdivision (a).
(c) A red reflector, or reflectorized material meeting the
requirements of Section 25500, attached to the operator and visible
from a distance of 500 feet to the rear when directly in front of
lawful upper beams of headlamps on a motor vehicle, may be used in
lieu of the reflector required by paragraph (2) of subdivision (a).



21224. (a) A person operating a motorized scooter is not subject to
the provisions of this code relating to financial responsibility,
registration, and license plate requirements, and, for those
purposes, a motorized scooter is not a motor vehicle.
(b) A motorized scooter is exempt from the equipment requirements
in Division 12 (commencing with Section 24000), except for Sections
24003 and 27400, Article 4 (commencing with Section 27450) of Chapter
5 of Division 12, and Section 27602.
(c) Notwithstanding subdivision (b), any motorized scooter may be
equipped with equipment authorized by Division 12 (commencing with
Section 24000).
(d) Any motorized scooter equipped with lighting equipment that is
authorized by Division 12 (commencing with Section 24000) shall meet
the lighting requirements in Article 1 (commencing with Section
24250) of Chapter 2 of Division 12 for that equipment.



21225. This article does not prevent a local authority, by
ordinance, from regulating the registration of motorized scooters and
the parking and operation of motorized scooters on pedestrian or
bicycle facilities and local streets and highways, if that regulation
is not in conflict with this code.



21226. (a) A person shall not sell or offer for sale a motorized
scooter that produces a maximum noise level exceeding 80 dbA at a
distance of 50 feet from the centerline of travel when tested in
accordance with Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Recommended
Practice J331 JAN00.
(b) A motorized scooter, as defined in subdivision (b) of Section
407.5, shall at all times be equipped with a muffler meeting the
requirements of this section, in constant operation and properly
maintained to prevent any excessive or unusual noise, and a muffler
or exhaust system shall not be equipped with a cutout, bypass, or
similar device.
(c) A motorized scooter, as defined in subdivision (b) of Section
407.5, operated off the highways shall at all times be equipped with
a muffler meeting the requirements of this section, in constant
operation and properly maintained to prevent any excessive or unusual
noise, and a muffler or exhaust system shall not be equipped with a
cutout, bypass, or similar device.
(d) A person shall not modify the exhaust system of a motorized
scooter in a manner that will amplify or increase the noise level
emitted by the motor of the scooter so that it is not in compliance
with this section or exceeds the noise level limit established by
subdivision (a). A person shall not operate a motorized scooter with
an exhaust system so modified.



21227. (a) A motorized scooter shall comply with one of the
following:
(1) Operate in a manner so that the electric motor is disengaged
or ceases to function when the brakes are applied.
(2) Operate in a manner so that the motor is engaged through a
switch or mechanism that, when released, will cause the electric
motor to disengage or cease to function.
(b) It is unlawful for a person to operate a motorized scooter
that does not meet one of the requirements of subdivision (a).




21228. Any person operating a motorized scooter upon a highway at a
speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same
direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the
right-hand curb or right edge of the roadway, except under the
following situations:
(a) When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the
same direction.
(b) When preparing for a left turn, the operator shall stop and
dismount as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or right edge
of the roadway and complete the turn by crossing the roadway on
foot, subject to the restrictions placed on pedestrians in Chapter 5
(commencing with Section 21950).
(c) (1) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions, including,
but not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles,
pedestrians, animals, surface hazards, or substandard width lanes,
which make it unsafe to continue along the right-hand curb or right
edge of the roadway, subject to Section 21656.
(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a "substandard width lane"
is a lane that is too narrow for a motorized scooter and another
vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
(d) Any person operating a motorized scooter upon a highway that
carries traffic in one direction only and has two or more marked
traffic lanes may operate the motorized scooter as near the left-hand
curb or left edge of that roadway as practicable.
However, when preparing for a right turn, the operator shall stop
and dismount as close as practicable to the left-hand curb or left
edge of the highway and complete the turn by crossing the roadway on
foot, subject to the restrictions placed on pedestrians in Chapter 5
(commencing with Section 21950).


21229. (a) Whenever a class II bicycle lane has been established on
a roadway, any person operating a motorized scooter upon the roadway
shall ride within the bicycle lane, except that the person may move
out of the lane under any of the following situations:
(1) When overtaking and passing another vehicle or pedestrian
within the lane or when about to enter the lane if the overtaking and
passing cannot be done safely within the lane.
(2) When preparing for a left turn, the operator shall stop and
dismount as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or right edge
of the roadway and complete the turn by crossing the roadway on
foot, subject to the restrictions placed on pedestrians in Chapter 5
(commencing with Section 21950).
(3) When reasonably necessary to leave the bicycle lane to avoid
debris or other hazardous conditions.
(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.
(b) No person operating a motorized scooter shall leave a bicycle
lane until the movement can be made with reasonable safety and then
only after giving an appropriate signal in the manner provided in
Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 22100) in the event that any
vehicle may be affected by the movement.



21230. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a motorized
scooter may be operated on a bicycle path or trail or bikeway, unless
the local authority or the governing body of a local agency having
jurisdiction over that path, trail, or bikeway prohibits that
operation by ordinance.



21235. The operator of a motorized scooter shall not do any of the
following:
(a) Operate a motorized scooter unless it is equipped with a brake
that will enable the operator to make a braked wheel skid on dry,
level, clean pavement.
(b) Operate a motorized scooter on a highway with a speed limit in
excess of 25 miles per hour unless the motorized scooter is operated
within a class II bicycle lane.
(c) Operate a motorized scooter without wearing a properly fitted
and fastened bicycle helmet that meets the standards described in
Section 21212.
(d) Operate a motorized scooter without a valid driver's license
or instruction permit.
(e) Operate a motorized scooter with any passengers in addition to
the operator.
(f) Operate a motorized scooter carrying any package, bundle, or
article that prevents the operator from keeping at least one hand
upon the handlebars.
(g) Operate a motorized scooter upon a sidewalk, except as may be
necessary to enter or leave adjacent property.
(h) Operate a motorized scooter on the highway with the handlebars
raised so that the operator must elevate his or her hands above the
level of his or her shoulders in order to grasp the normal steering
grip area.
(i) Leave a motorized scooter lying on its side on any sidewalk,
or park a motorized scooter on a sidewalk in any other position, so
that there is not an adequate path for pedestrian traffic.
(j) Attach the motorized scooter or himself or herself while on
the roadway, by any means, to any other vehicle on the roadway.

Mecca Lecca Hi Mecca Hiney Ho

[nocanfly]

Nick,

Its not a USA thing, its a historical thing. Only folks who were here in the formative days of SC, with battlescars from TIQ, will appreciate TIQ's final death. Imagine a forum so vicious that I got flamed for being PRO Segway. Its a triumph-of-good-over-evil thing.
There's not many of the original SC crew actively posting anymore: They've disappeared too. Makes me feel really old....


HEY, DUPA! ARE YOU OUT THERE? TIME TO COME IN FROM THE COLD!
I remember some of those epic battles...

[drmarty]

Thanks? again JohnM

Marty

[Brooster]

I remember some of those epic battles...

Nocanfly was, is, and will always be a Founding Member of SegwayChat. Good to see you back, Nocan. Been a while ...

[JohnM]

The report of my death is an exaggeration.
- Mark Twain

Somebody (???) has paid the rent on the URL and TIQ has risen from the dead; archives, wildly out of date homepage, the whole thing. Who? Why? Its a mystery. Nobody ever did acknowledge ownership of the site.

Browsing thru the archives is interesting: speculation about hovercraft, b!tching about the lack of real marketing, etc. Deja Vue all over again.

[slowride]

theitquestion.com , aka, TIQ

Frank created Segway Chat as a refuge from the unmoderated mayhem that made civil discourse at TIQ impossible. Check out some of the earliest SegChat postings (http://forums.segwaychat.com/showthread.php?t=32) to see how thankful people were.

It looks like it may be time to go back to it. I'm so glad to know there are other places out there beside SC.

[tedalo]

...and I gotta admit I was kinda sadden. The obsession and wild speculation of "IT" on TIQ was an interesting period of my youth.

Did some searching and found segwaychat and registered. :)

Only name I recognize though is Brooster and I believe NoCanFly posted earlier in this thread. Good to see you Brooster! Is there any other old heads here?

[wwhopper]

Did some searching and found segwaychat and registered. :)

Only name I recognize though is Brooster and I believe NoCanFly posted earlier in this thread. Good to see you Brooster! Is there any other old heads here?

Have had all their questions answered, though they are still around to answer questions to the new owners.

The Segway world is very different now from 5 years ago.

[pam]

Indeed, Will Hopper is right - :) and, IMHO, the change and growth has been a good thing.
pam