T3 Motion

[GyroGo]

http://www.t3motion.com/product.html

$6k+

[Sal]

Maybe a Q on steroids? IMHO: dorky.

-Sal

[gbrandwood]

Featuring a "0 degree turning radius"

[citivolus]

"Agility: 0 Degree turning radius"

Ummm... Ok, sure. So it goes the other way by waiting on the Coriolis force or something.

[GadgetmanKen]

The rider can't weigh more than 185 lbs, because it weighs 240 with batteries, WoW..., Gross payload 425 lbs. Well there goes half the donut eating security/police force. Dooh!. Try pulling that out of your trunk. Oh, it won't fit in your trunk. The milage with the different battery packs is impressive, but not likely, IMO. Doesn't say what voltage the batteries are or what size the motor is either. Front or dual wheel drive either. They look like/similar to the American Chariots revamped. Probably the market they are going after anyway. But don't appear to have the cool factor of the Segway.

[JohnM]

The rider can't weigh more than 185 lbs, because it weighs 240 with batteries, WoW..., Gross payload 425 lbs. Well there goes half the donut eating security/police force. Dooh!. Try pulling that out of your trunk. Oh, it won't fit in your trunk.
So? Neither will a horse, yet there are plenty of police forces with horse mounted patrols. Motorcycles, motorscooters, helicoptors and boats don't fit into the trunks of police cars either. Does that make them useless for law enforcement? I'm sure there's a niche market out there somewhere, just as there's a niche for Segways.

Its always interesting to see how open minded some members of the Segway community are towards new devices that they haven't even seen yet.

[cruiter]

Doesn't appear to be that well thought out. I can't put my finger on it, but just doesn't look fully baked yet. And certainly not for the enthusiast's market.So? Neither will a horse, yet there are plenty of police forces with horse mounted patrols. Motorcycles, motorscooters, helicoptors and boats don't fit into the trunks of police cars either. Does that make them useless for law enforcement? I'm sure there's a niche market out there somewhere, just as there's a niche for Segways.

Its always interesting to see how open minded some members of the Segway community are towards new devices that they haven't even seen yet.

[Sal]

Its always interesting to see how open minded some members of the Segway community are towards new devices that they haven't even seen yet.

John,

Admittedly, we are pretty biased towards the virtues of the Segway ("SegwayChat" would be a good indication of where we stand on the subject :p), but we're also pretty keen on analyzing other modalities when we come across them. I do believe that if something comea along which will seriously provide a valuable solution, we'd be open minded enough to admit it, but we have seen a lot of stand up options, let alone something like this which is basically a NYC three wheel traffic cop car without the seat or roof.

It doesn't only take a Segway enthusiast to see that this is a device which was made hastily. Maybe it'll find a niche market, but it's pretty useless for valuable law enforcement in a pedestrian environment / indoor environment. Experience will eventually tell. :D

-Sal

[JohnM]

John,

Admittedly, we are pretty biased towards the virtues of the Segway ("SegwayChat" would be a good indication of where we stand on the subject :p), but we're also pretty keen on analyzing other modalities when we come across them. I do believe that if something comea along which will seriously provide a valuable solution, we'd be open minded enough to admit it, but we have seen a lot of stand up options, let alone something like this which is basically a NYC three wheel traffic cop car without the seat or roof.

Is the "NYC three wheel traffic cop car" useless for law enforcement? If seats and roofs are necessary prerequisites for utility, what does that say about the Segway?

It doesn't only take a Segway enthusiast to see that this is a device which was made hastily.

Hasty? 3½ years isn't long enough? Perhaps $100 million isn't necessary when you start off with a stable tricycle design. Plus they discussed the concept with police and security officials from the beginning. My understanding was that Kamen waited till after the leak to show the Segway to potential users.


Maybe it'll find a niche market, but it's pretty useless for valuable law enforcement in a pedestrian environment / indoor environment. Experience will eventually tell. :D

I've seen Segways and golf carts used by law enforcement in pedestrian / indoor environments. Why would something in between be useless? It's a niche product (a dorky looking one too) but the niche exists.

[Sal]

Is the "NYC three wheel traffic cop car" useless for law enforcement? If seats and roofs are necessary prerequisites for utility, what does that say about the Segway?

I never said it was useless, I thought it was dorky, and the design did not represent anything new or novel.



Hasty? 3½ years isn't long enough? Perhaps $100 million isn't necessary when you start off with a stable tricycle design. Plus they discussed the concept with police and security officials from the beginning. My understanding was that Kamen waited till after the leak to show the Segway to potential users.

We have all seen that 4 wheels isn't as stable as people would think (a la the Q scooter), so the theory about a trike being [just as] stable will be proven / disproven with it's performance in real world situations.



I've seen Segways and golf carts used by law enforcement in pedestrian / indoor environments. Why would something in between be useless? It's a niche product (a dorky looking one too) but the niche exists.

Well, I can't argue with that, there are markets for everything, and there are people who will buy just about anything. We're a group of crazies right here who bought into this device.

-Sal

[citivolus]

I think the 25 mph top speed and 12 V power adapter (cigarette lighter style no doubt, aaarrrggghhh!) are both good features and the "type D" battery option giving a range of 75 miles makes it pretty well thought out.

Oh, the "0 degree turning radius" means 28 inches and I guess that would imply the wheel base dimension and that would result in the front wheel being parallel (at a 0 degree angle?) to the rear axle or the front axle at a zero degree angle with the centerline or the plane of rotation being... never mind, I'll stop there. :p

[polo_pro]

We have all seen that 4 wheels isn't as stable as people would think (a la the Q scooter), so the theory about a trike being [just as] stable will be proven / disproven with it's performance in real world situations.
Three wheel designs are categorized as delta (like the T3) and tadpole (where their are 2 steering wheels up front and only 1 drive wheel in the back). The delta design is less stable, though speed matters. The high center of gravity aggravates this situation. Essentially in a turn at high speed, if the center of gravity doesn't change, the delta trike wants to tip over to the outside of the turn.

There are some things you can do to compensate for this.

You can move the front wheel towards the outside of the turn. This repositioning makes it more stable since it is starting to mimic a four wheel vehicle. A three wheeled motorcycle in the UK was announced that does this and stays VERY stable in high speed turns of 60 MPH. (I'll leave it to Bystander to find the link since he's much better at searching than I am.)

The other alternative you have is to move the center of gravity by moving the occupant. This happens to some degree too on the UK delta motorcycle. And we on segways do the same thing as we lean. However, our handle bars don't get in the way as we turn so we can lean ALOT. The T3's handle bars are narrow probably for this reason.

I do like how the T3's depicted to tow a trailer in the product literature. It'd be hilarious if the cart was large enough to one suspect securely. It'd be a mini-paddy wagon, eh? But to appease my fellow segway reader, I'll join in the slam fest and say that I think the T3 is readily comparable to the rascal scooter (unlike our segways which have that "cool" balancing technology to differentiate it). So it isn't going to take long for cops to be turned off by cowardly (yet law abiding) citizens yelling taunts along those lines.

ps - JohnM, I agree that Segway owners should be more accepting of new vehicles and technology. We segway owners are acting like a bunch of bikers who feel the T3 is infringing on our turf. We should be welcoming this new product because it'll make segways that much more acceptable to police forces everywhere. Also, I seriously doubt the T3 is going to come in under $5K since they aren't mentioning the price as of now. If it had a $4K price tag, they'd be yelling it from the building tops and trying to muscle in on segway's market overtly. And from my perspective a little competitive pressure is always a good thing. Doesn't everyone want to see a lower priced segway?

[JohnM]

ps - JohnM, I agree that Segway owners should be more accepting of new vehicles and technology. We segway owners are acting like a bunch of bikers who feel the T3 is infringing on our turf. We should be welcoming this new product because it'll make segways that much more acceptable to police forces everywhere. Also, I seriously doubt the T3 is going to come in under $5K since they aren't mentioning the price as of now. If it had a $4K price tag, they'd be yelling it from the building tops and trying to muscle in on segway's market overtly. And from my perspective a little competitive pressure is always a good thing. Doesn't everyone want to see a lower priced segway?

plomoh,
The T3 is overtly muscling in on the Segway law enforcement market. They introduced it at the International Association of Chiefs of Poilice conference last week. And see this story: http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/local/article_1290472.php
They're trying to capitalize on the Segway recall, making it sound like Segways have been pulled from the market. (Better to capitalize of the fact that new Segways with the police package just aren't available.) The price seems to be about the same as a Segway, about $6k. Looks like a tradeoff of agility/size for speed/endurance. Choice is good. Competition is good. If it is viable or a POS, time will tell. It will be interesting to see what happens with John Wayne Airport.

[polo_pro]

plomoh,
The T3 is overtly muscling in on the Segway law enforcement market. They introduced it at the International Association of Chiefs of Poilice conference last week. And see this story: http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/local/article_1290472.php
They're trying to capitalize on the Segway recall, making it sound like Segways have been pulled from the market. (Better to capitalize of the fact that new Segways with the police package just aren't available.) The price seems to be about the same as a Segway, about $6k. Looks like a tradeoff of agility/size for speed/endurance. Choice is good. Competition is good. If it is viable or a POS, time will tell. It will be interesting to see what happens with John Wayne Airport.
As you said, competition is good. And if the T3 is readily adopted, Segway INC may be forced to make some impromptu improvements in their design in response to superior capabilities of the T3. Historically, Segway INC would not allow a faster speed than 12.5 MPH. Perhaps this competition will cause them to revisit this decision, and they _M I G H T_ _S O M E D A Y_ come out with a special "police" model that can go faster. (I purposefully have avoided mentioning a particular high speed since these numbers end up serving as the basis for rumor and speculation. It's bad enough that I've suggested that Segway INC might make a special "police" model with different capabilities.)

Along similar lines, Segway INC may accelerate the incorporation of better battery technology or quick recharge so that it compares better with a T3 that has 75 mile range. Segway might respond with those new batteries that offer 30% more storage capacity and quick charge capability. This would allow the officer to cruise at yellow speed all morning, charge up over lunch and cruise all afternoon till his shift was finally over! Pretty good performance from a single set of batteries, eh? (Again, I've avoided mentioning numbers so they don't start rumors or speculation.)

ps - It is worth mentioning that if a single set of batteries were used in this fashion, they'd have to be replaced every 2 to 3 years. And spiffy batteries with these capabilities wouldn't be cheap. I'd guess they'd cost $2000 at least. Does anyone know how much the T3's Class D battery option costs or what their projected lifespan is?

[citivolus]

Does anyone know how much the T3's Class D battery option costs or what their projected lifespan is?
Not directly, but the datasheet implies the batteries are Li-Ion (the obscure ** note at the bottom of the datasheet) so I would assume they mey be similar in lifespan and cost more given the size.

[RAG1247]

seems to me to be a strong competitor to the segway for limited applications such as police, security, private industry, etc. , based on alleged range, storage, etc. I doubt it will ever get on streets or sidewalks for the average consumer. It doesn't balance but those markets probably don't need to balance.

spec sheet at

http://www.t3motion.com/DataSheet.pdf

[GyroGo]

We've seen Segway's evolutionary scale starting with man on all fours and ending with man gliding.

For police use, it seems the evolution is:

on foot --> horseback --> motorcycle --> T3 --> Segway

However, while being the "missing link" has a rather ugly connotation for us humans, with an open mind it can be seen that a T3 may have a current place, as do the other predecessors on the evolutionary scale.

Ooops, I just had a daymare of a T3 cop with sirens blaring and lights flashing at 25mph chasing down a guy on a Segway to write up a citation.

For better or worse, this will take some business from Segway in this market, but they each have a place.

[KSagal]

I heard references to the trike configuration as being "more Stable". More stable than what?

When a T3 and a segway are turned off, clearly a T3 may be more stable.

When going down a slight decline (Slope) and breaking hard, I would guess a segway is more stable.

When going down a small curb or step, I would guess a segway to be more stable.

When going down a large curb or step, I would guess a segway more stable, and a T3 unable.

When doing a reasonably fast turn, trikes have a tendency to plow with the side of the front wheel, and load balance (Rider) tend to fall to the outside of the turn, often lifting the inside rear wheel, making the trike a two wheel vehicle with no steering or balance.

I would guess in that instance, the segway is more stable.

That wheel plow is the primary reason that three wheel ATVs have been removed from the market.

Replacing battery packs for range has been done before.

Speed is faster with the T3. Again, similar products have had problems with that one wheel turn at speed.

As far as the dork factor... I will not go there. Segways have enough glass in that area that we should not be throwing stones...

I believe that there are some advantages and some disadvantages to this unit over segways. Costs the same, my vote is toward the segway, but I am biased.

I have had very little mechanical issue with my segways and I use them hard (by my own standards) so I will not concede any maintenance or dependability superiority to either, other than to say that I have surely seen many products on the market not nearly as well made as the seg...

[RAG1247]

I likewise am somewhat biased, but videos in operation can be seen at

http://www.t3motion.com/news.html