Crazy People on Trampoline with segway!

[Klerkan]

Must hurt if they fall down, il only tried my i2 down the stairs :)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3836180414203855857&q=segway

[Sal]

What parent in their right mind would condone / encourage his [any] kids to do that, let alone without a helmet.

-Sal

P.S. How are you enjoying your i2?

[gbrandwood]

That put a smile on my face! Did you see the stick shake at the end? Looks like the video fades out just before the kid is knocked backwards and the camera man gets a "close up" of the i180!

Who says you get no exercise on a Segway!

[Sunday]

I used to think the world was like an Ayn Rand novel, now I see that it's much more like The Sumpsons.


Mark

[safety1st]

and you ask why Segway requires every user to get "Trained', (this guy skipped the trainng)? Maybe also a IQ test should be required.

David
D/FW Segway

[sholloway]

As much as I would have enjoyed watching an adult break something (arm, leg, segway, etc) doing this, it was rather sad to see that the same adult would let their kid try it. Certainly not parent of the year material.

[Desert_Seg]

I don't know what's a more stupid act....

- Trampoline Segway with your kid

- Posting the video tape of such terrible parenting on YouTube!

And what made anybody think of Trampoline Segway? I've thought of a lot of stupid stunts I might try on a Segway (including going down a flight of stairs) but trampoline Segway was never one of them.

Steven

[Florida Ever-Glides]

Karl,

I'm suprised nobody has tried to jump out of a plane with a Segway yet. Do you think the landing could allow them to ride off into the sunset?

[wwhopper]

What parent in their right mind would condone / encourage his [any] kids to do that, let alone without a helmet.

"Go Out And Play In Traffic"

Now Parents must be saying "Take the Gen One Segway and get on the Trampoline"

What is this world coming to?

Now I know why I don't have kids....

I don't have room for a Trampoline! ;-)

[Sal]

... if that video showed that child fall and get hurt, it would likely be portrayed as the Segway's fault!

-Sal

[gbrandwood]

... if that video showed that child fall and get hurt, it would likely be portrayed as the Segway's fault!

-SalYup, Segway should have worked harder to include those environment variables in the software and incorporate it into their test track. ;)

[Stan671]

if that video showed that child fall and get hurt, it would likely be portrayed as the Segway's fault!Right. And those stupid parents would sue Segway saying that there should be a sign on the handlebar warning them not to ride the Segway on a trampoline. And then some equally stupid jury would award them millions of dollars.

[SEGsby]

...a 'Darwin Award' waiting to happen.

Is it possible for the maker of a product to sue an individual for abusing their intellectual property and Brand?

SEGsby

[dalessiokid]

How stupid can a man be?, That coulded end in a serious injury! It also reminded me how upset i get when people refer to the segway as a Toy instead of a Technological breaktrhough in Urban Transportation!


Jorge D'Alessio

Let The Glide Last Forever!

[KSagal]

Karl,

I'm suprised nobody has tried to jump out of a plane with a Segway yet. Do you think the landing could allow them to ride off into the sunset?

Vertical descent of a Round parachute is about 20MPH and is relatively straight down. Not good for the axles.

A rectangular parachute (The kind almost everyone used these days) has almost the same descent rate, but a horizontal glide rate to match.

It is possible and I have done it, to swoop in and climb at the same time, since the normal glide of a parachute is about 20 degrees toward the ground, if you "climb" at about a 20 degree increase to this, anyone watching would say you are gliding parallel to the ground. This makes the landings look good, and seem easier than they are.

I have done many demonstration jumps into tight spaces, (including my wedding rehearsal) where I had to time it so that I stopped going forward and down at the same point in a tight space. I looks like stepping off the curb, if you do it right. (Crash and burn if you do it wrong...)

I have the skill to make the jump and come in relatively level and less than 12 miles per hour at point of contact with the ground. The extra hundred pounds would require some practice. Each practice round would likely cost a segway it's life, but given time, I could make it work. Would you like me to use yours? I will not use mine.

By the way, if I had a problem and had to jetison the seg (And/or a parachute (I always carry at least one reserve) I would not want to be the guy on the ground looking up...


Personally I see not value in this kind of thing, maybe a commercial, or a James Bond movie would have this as a possibility. Reality would just label it a horrible waste of money and effort.

By the way, I do know people who have jumped with roller blades and bicycles. I have not.

I did jump with a rubber raft a few times. (Ala Indiana Jones) and it was a blast trying to stay in that thing. An orange is an interesting thing to jump with, and so are water ballons. Paint ball guns have a great effect, but take some effort to avoid having the ball explode right outside the muzzle...

Just to make believe I am keeping this on point... I have never skydived with a trampoline. I have not seen this tape yet, but from what everyone is saying, I agree with the concept that endangering kids has no place nor tollerance from me. (That is one of the major reasons that I have not skydived since my son was born. Unnecessary risks and kids do not go together.)

[TheRonster]

Classic depiction of "someone with more money than brains ...."

[JRjr]

Classic depiction of "someone with more money than brains ...."


That's not a very nice way at all to refer to Karl ! I think he's very smart... Oh, wait a minute, you're talking about the trampoline thing... Sorry....

[austin@SOH]

Woops... I guess I should have told him during product orientation to keep the Segway off the trampoline... Oh yeah... Thats common sense. I think its something in the water around here or maybe the fact that there is just nothing to do...

[cruiter]

Seeing the kids do it after the dad, just shows that Genes do pass down the chain. Makes me wonder what a video of the dad's father would have shown (if video had been around then). Somewhere in the gene set, the smart cord was shorted.
Jim

[sombody]

So Karl-

What effect do you think an industrial strength gyroscope attached to a skydiver somewhare might have on his flight - if any. Would it add any stabilization- or maybe take some of the fun out.

rick

[glen_d]

Haven't any of you ever done anything foolish and survived? I have, but judging by many of your righteous comments, many of you have not.

Glen

[Sal]

Haven't any of you ever done anything foolish and survived? I have, but judging by many of your righteous comments, many of you have not.

Glen

Well... doing something foolish autonomously is one thing.. but to have one's parents encourage it is another matter altogether.

-Sal

[Tarkus]

... if that video showed that child fall and get hurt, it would likely be portrayed as the Segway's fault!

-Sal

You just said it all Sal.

I thank God every day that Segways cost what they do or this type crap would be all over the sidwalks.

Alan

[polo_pro]

Now I know I'm going to be criticized for my below stance. Someone's either going to respond after reading only a few sentences ignoring my overall point as described in later sentence OR quote a few phrases out of context to make my position seem extreme or unrealistic. And to save pundits from having to post some typical response, I'll answer the two obvious questions with "yes, I have kids" and "no, they've never been seriously hurt as we tried things". Finally, I'll state that I'd never let my kids or anyone do anything on a segway that might cause it to "catch air"!

Part of parenting is letting your child take risks (under your watchful supervision so that you can intervene at any time to prevent a catastrophe). I think our country (USA) has lost touch with the fact that childhood is SUPPOSE to involve nicks and bumps.

Kids come up with wild ideas, and they don't have the good judgement to know when things have become too risky. But when a child who's exploring possibilities says, "Hey, I like segways and I like trampolines...let's do them together to see if we have more than twice the fun," we as parents SHOULD seriously consider their request for two reasons. First, the child may be onto something new and grand (like surfing with a kite pulling you)! But second, you never want your child to stop bringing his ideas to you...the worst scenario is where (s)he sneaks off and covertly attempts the stunt.

Upon getting the request, I feel we as parents should do everything in our power to help them do it SAFELY. (I readily admit some things can never be done safely....maybe that's the case with trampolines and segways.) The parent should experiment with the feat/stunt carefully considering all the ways things could go wrong AND explain to the child throughout the experiment that the outcome might be a ban on doing it even if the parent is trying it right then and there.

If circumstances can be changed to make the activity SAFE (perhaps with close supervision, etc) then I think it's time for the child to be allowed to try out their idea with the stipulation that they must always have things set up the same way (ie. parental supervision, etc.) if it's attempted in the future.

In the case of a segway on a trampoline, I'd probably demonstrate to the child what a segway does when it's in balance mode and completely lifted up of the ground (probably taking two adults to do this). The child would see the wheels spin up outrageously fast making a scary noise. I might even set it back down on the ground before the wheels spin down to show the child how uncontrollable the segway becomes. Then I'd point out that all the same thing is going to happen on the trampoline when you bounce. If my child still thought it was a good idea, I might even get up there and as carefully as possible show them how it gets out of control...but only if my child didn't have the attitude of "oh, dad can't do anything right and I'll show him how to do it!" The last thing you do is try to find something comparable in the child's eyes that they will feel looks as dangerous as this segway-trampoline activity is. Finally, on occasion, I've had to pull the parenting trump card out of "well, wait till you're 18 to do this...but try to postpone it even a bit longer till you're no longer elligible for a Darwin award". 8^) 8^) 8^)

ps - I will readily admit that not all parents have good judgement (or lack basic caution/common sense) nor do all kids obey rules. I haven't had much trouble with this in my family. As my kids become teenagers (and I get older) maybe this will become more of a problem!

[sholloway]

If they were wearing helmets and there were parents standing all around the trampoline and there were pillows over the bars..... THEN.... this would still be a stupid idea. I get your point, but we are discussing This video. In this video there is no such idea as your's being played out. Your idea has valid points and makes some sense, this video is untamed stupidity.

[KSagal]

So Karl-

What effect do you think an industrial strength gyroscope attached to a skydiver somewhare might have on his flight - if any. Would it add any stabilization- or maybe take some of the fun out.

rick

I believe that a gyroscope has many functions and properties, but the way we use the concept of a gyroscope is similar to the properties that portions of our inner ear do for determining balance and "up from down". A gyroscope does this for a computer, and our inner ear does it for our brain...

If I have the concept of your "gyroscope" correct, then it is not needed. A person uses their own sense of "balance" and has no need for gyroscopic stabilization while in freefall. A person is traveling (thanks to gravitational pull) at speeds in excess of 100 miles per hour thru the air, and by deflecting that air off their body, they can control a great deal of movements.

It is not realistic to compare a freefalling skydiver to a person who has tumbled out of control. That concept is only for those who have not jumped, as it is hard to hold onto it with that much airspeed. THis is not to say that skydiving is not a hard learned skill, it is. Students tumble all the time when learning their craft. I suppose your gyroscope could be compared to training wheels, but it would be like training wheels on a Harley. As soon as you figure out how to make it go, the wheels become more of a restriction than an assistant.

Now, if you were speaking of a gyroscope as a portion of a navigational system for gliding or flying around, that may be an interesting path to explore, but the range of a parachute is still limited and always traveling toward the ground at some point, so casual side trips are not often available between the plane and the landing zone. They are available to some degree, but not as "Gee, lets go over there and see what is up, then come back here and land" kind of trips...

This is kind of off topic. I'll happily continue it, but we should go the appropriate forum.

As far as the guy and the kids on the trampoline. I have now witnessed the video, and am fine with my preconceptions. This guy is a fool, and has put his kid in unnecessary risk.

Now, I do not say that lightly. I have been told on this forum that I am an irresponsible parent for having my children on the platform of my E-167 with me. Others have been called irresponsible for towing their children in trailers and wagons with their segways.

I do not wear a helmet, but my kids are required to when on the seg with me. They have not yet been invited to try the seg alone, they ride with me. My 6 year old is tall, and weighs about 60 pounds. I suspect it will not be too long before his first, well controlled solo will happen.

Where I have a problem with the video is not the seg on the trampoline. It is the kid on the seg with no protective gear, clearly more than a hand's length away from aid.

Others have mentioned that childhood involves bumps and bruises. That is true, especially if you encourage your children to explore the limits of there world, as I do. That is not the same as showing no respect for reasonable precautions. If those kids had helmets and knee pads and wrist protectors, I would have thought their dad a mere fool, not too far from me. Since he did not insist on those things for his kids, for me, the scale tips to irresponsible.

Now, everyone sets those scale to their own values. I know lots of skydivers who did not stop jumping just because they had kids. I will take it up again when my kids are off to college. Those who have different values are not wrong, but are not making the same value calls that I make that is all.

Where everyone makes the mark for what is a good parenting practice and what is not is so personal and changes daily with me. I will allow my kids some room on some days that I do not allow on others. Some of it is based on external situations, some of it is just on that 'gut' feeling that we have to listen to sometimes...

So, Go ahead, play the fool. I have done so for decades, and loved every minute of it. But, never forget that if you are the dad, you NEED to be the DAD, and your kids deserve it.

One final illustrative story. When my first born son learned to walk up steps, I was always behind him. It was the rule. He was about 18 or 20 months old, he had been walking for a while (Before 11 months) but he had just learned to walk up the stairs and not crawl up...

He had a habbit of climbing about 3/4 the way up, and then turn and jump into my arms. I am talking about a real leap....of faith. I knew that he never looked first. He just knew his dad was there, and would launch. As quickly as I could, I set out to break him of this habbit, as I knew it would eventually come to pass that I would miss the catch, for some reason. (Imagine a 20 year old, launching and crushing his poor ole' dad) Anyway, I eventually convinced him that he should not do this thing, unless he looked me in the eye first...

My story is about this. What nice life it is, to have dad there, so that we don't have to look. That is a great place to live. I think that all kids deserve to live there. In my opinion, if one of those kids on that seg on that trampoline needed to leap, or started to fall, that dad had set it up to not be able to be there. THAT is why I call him irresponsible.

[glen_d]

The video shows a parent attending to a child taking a risk by doing something previously unknown. If you listen to the parent, he coaches the child on what to do, limiting the behavior on the trampoline. As it turns out in the video, the parent's estimate of a favorable outcome and the actual result were coincident. Good for him. Perhaps his child will learn something from the incident and not take truly foolish risks.

I think most of the respondents that find the parent's actions irresponsible are concerned not so much for the child's welfare as for their own. They fear that if the child were to be hurt (and he was not!), that such a result would reflect poorly on the Segway and somehow lessen their chance of enjoying their Segway in the future. It's only natural to be concerned for your own welfare, but let's not mistake that as concern for someone else's child or moral outrage.

Thank goodness we all don't get to decide how this parent raises his child – or how you raise yours.

Glen

[sholloway]

Glen, the parent tells the child to ride near the edge and then tells the child to let go with his hands. Which of these endearing comments do you label "limiting the behavior"? I am concerned with the safety of the kids in the video, I am not concerned with the rep of the Segway.

[glen_d]

I am concerned with the safety of the kids in the video, I am not concerned with the rep of the Segway.

The video does not portray a hypothetical situation. You have not been burdened with making an accurate prediction of future events.

How could you possibly be concerned for the safety of the child in the video when the safe outcome is already known? The child was not injured in the video.

Perhaps you are concerned with what might have happened, not what actually happened. Controlling other people's actions for fear of what might happen is quite a different proposition, isn't it?

Glen

[TheRonster]

How could you possibly be concerned for the safety of the child in the video when the safe outcome is already known? The child was not injured in the video.
Using that kind of "logic," we should also shrink from commenting on a parent who tells his kid to shoot an arrow straight up in the air. If nothing bad happens on videotape of this experiment, it would be OUTRAGEOUS for anyone to say "Hey, that's irresponsible ...."

After all, the outcome is known. The child wasn't injured on tape. The arrow came down next to him instead of into his skull.

That kind of "logic" and a bit of video editing could be used to prove that Russian roulette is a safe thing to do with a revolver, and only a busybody control freak would say "Hey ...."

What could possibly go wrong, eh?

Executive summary: Sheesh!

[sombody]

Does anyone remember LAWN DARTS- perfectly fun game unless you tried to catch them with your teeth.

rick

[KSagal]

The video shows a parent attending to a child taking a risk by doing something previously unknown. If you listen to the parent, he coaches the child on what to do, limiting the behavior on the trampoline. As it turns out in the video, the parent's estimate of a favorable outcome and the actual result were coincident. Good for him. Perhaps his child will learn something from the incident and not take truly foolish risks. Why would you feel the child will learn not to take foolish risks? Based on what? His father did not learn this. YOU did not learn this. How would a kid learn it?

I think most of the respondents that find the parent's actions irresponsible are concerned not so much for the child's welfare as for their own. They fear that if the child were to be hurt (and he was not!), that such a result would reflect poorly on the Segway and somehow lessen their chance of enjoying their Segway in the future. It's only natural to be concerned for your own welfare, but let's not mistake that as concern for someone else's child or moral outrage. Here you are demonstrating that you are completely unaware of what Shalloway and I are talking about. Others seem to agree with the sentiment that we are speaking of as well. What you say is natural may be natural to you, but if I had to guess, it would be that you are not someone's father. I place the welfare of my children above my own every day, constantly. I will, and have protected my children from harm to my own detriment, and so have several fathers (and mothers). I know many people that would easily take the hit for their kid each and everytime, and never back down...

Thank goodness we all don't get to decide how this parent raises his child – or how you raise yours. I am not sure what planet you live on, but people tell others how to raise their children all the time. Have you never met a teacher? A cop? A politician? A college professor? Your daughter's boyfriend? The kids on your kid's soccer team that have all those questionable suggestions for your kid to do? etc, etc.

Glen

It takes a villiage to raise a child. That is because so many people want to be heard on the way you should raise them...

[KSagal]

Does anyone remember LAWN DARTS- perfectly fun game unless you tried to catch them with your teeth.

rick


Catching them with your teeth sounds silly to me. I believe the currently accepted method of playing this game is to set up two trampolines at opposite sides of the yard, and have a pass with them, from one segway trampoline to the other...

[TheRonster]

I believe the currently accepted method of playing this game is to set up two trampolines at opposite sides of the yard, and have a pass with them, from one segway trampoline to the other...
As long as nobody gets hurt on videotape that is edited and made publicly available, I don't see why anyone would possibly mind seeing sharp, pointy, high-speed objects being aimed at another human's chest. (Crikey!)

If playing catch with 35 mph slingshot lawn darts makes you cringe, you must be a sissy or a control freak. A good parent only makes sure the barbs haven't been sharpened THAT much ....

[Jet]

The video does not portray a hypothetical situation. You have not been burdened with making an accurate prediction of future events.

How could you possibly be concerned for the safety of the child in the video when the safe outcome is already known? The child was not injured in the video.

Perhaps you are concerned with what might have happened, not what actually happened. Controlling other people's actions for fear of what might happen is quite a different proposition, isn't it?

Glen

We don't know if anyone was or was not injured - We only know that the actions as demonistrated was very dangerous and rightly can comment how stupid it was.

Allowing a child who appears to be less than 100lbs on a Segway is a dangerous act in itself.

[waynen]

Walking to the bathroom can end in a serious injury too and yeah, I do consider my Segway a toy and a Technological breaktrhough in Urban Transportation! I should have had them wear a helmet, that's my only regret. The truth is, it was their idea and I allowed them to check it out. They would have done it without me the very first time I left them alone with the keys anyway. Did anyone look at my other videos on Google? I also have racecars that go in excess of 230 MPH in a 1/4 mile pass (the video is an 1/8 mile pass) and yeah, the 6 year old rides in the car too although not at that speed. I am also a pilot and own my own aircraft, I have flown aerobatics and my kids have too. We also race drag boats and offshore race boats. Anyone seen this month's Hot Boat magazine? That's me on page 26 driving the drag boat on the top of the page.

Just because I am not same typical antique boring sue happy lazy old Segway owner as many here, doesn't make my uses for my "toy" wrong. When I am in public with my toy, I ride very slowly and I hate the fact that people rent the Segways and knock people over and make them a irritation which could make them not welcome in the near future. It is in my nature however to explore the limits of every toy I own and will continue to do so.

As for him being too young to be capable of riding a Segway at all, that's crazy. He has better skills than many adults and almost all seniors, which a large part of Segway owners are. Where do Segway crashes occur? Most are either unnoticed slippery surfaces (a loose stone or wet spot on the floor), or while attempting to operate near the limitations of the machine, like climbing a hill slowly and losing traction.

I have only fell from the Segway once, I was riding around the circumference of a quarry and got very close to a black bear! While leaving the area as quickly as I could, while looking back for the bear, I ran into grooves and belly'd out the Segway causing me to go over the handlebars. No injury..... Was at Millbrook Quarry close to Manasses Va during Cody's SCUBA checkout dives. Yeah, I am a terrible parent that allows my 12 year old to SCUBA dive too. I have gone down up to 3 stairs on the Segway.... I do have more video, I just uploaded the highlights, didn't skip any accidents.

A ride to the store puts me in a 3000 pound piece of metal, plastic and glass going 55 MPH, meanwhile, two feet away, there is an 80,000 pound tractor trailer coming straight at me at 65 MPH, that's an 120MPH impact with an 80,000 pound object that weights over 26 times the one I am in. I can be the best driver in the world wearing all the necessary safety items and yet one twitch by either driver or a flat tire could cause this impact. I think every person that knowingly puts their child into that situation, each and every day should be in big trouble for allowing that kind of risk to get near their child. Now lets add fatigue, bad weather, and drunk drivers to the mix. How does that compare to falling off of a Segway? Oh that's right, we didn't fall did we....


How stupid can a man be?, That coulded end in a serious injury! It also reminded me how upset i get when people refer to the segway as a Toy instead of a Technological breaktrhough in Urban Transportation!


Jorge D'Alessio

Let The Glide Last Forever!

[sholloway]

I understand everyone has different level of risks in their lives. You've obviously chosen a hell of a lot more than others. That's great. I'm just not convinced (nor do I need to be) that letting your kids take part in these activities is a good call. You raise your kids, I'll raise mine. I just know that the chances of my kids being injured or killed in a racecar, drag boat, or acrobatic plane is absolutely zero. The chances of my kids being injured by being on a Segway on a trampoline without a helmet is also absolutely zero. You've clearly increased the chances of your kids being injured or killed in "high risk" vehicles by letting them participate in those types of activities. And of course you're right that people die everyday on the highways but I don't accept that as a reason that it is OK to have your kids try certain types of things. I hope like hell you guys have a great time and none of your kids are ever injured.

[waynen]

Well said. I hope no kid is ever injured, but I wouldn't lock mine in a rubber room to insure it.. Men in our family have unusually short lives due to illness's that are hereditary. We do however live while we can and may be guilty of trying to squeeze in a bit of extra. As I said I do admit I should have made them wear a helmet.

I understand everyone has different level of risks in their lives. You've obviously chosen a hell of a lot more than others. That's great. I'm just not convinced (nor do I need to be) that letting your kids take part in these activities is a good call. You raise your kids, I'll raise mine. I just know that the chances of my kids being injured or killed in a racecar, drag boat, or acrobatic plane is absolutely zero. The chances of my kids being injured by being on a Segway on a trampoline without a helmet is also absolutely zero. You've clearly increased the chances of your kids being injured or killed in "high risk" vehicles by letting them participate in those types of activities. And of course you're right that people die everyday on the highways but I don't accept that as a reason that it is OK to have your kids try certain types of things. I hope like hell you guys have a great time and none of your kids are ever injured.

[Sal]

Just because I am not same typical antique boring sue happy lazy old Segway owner as many here...

Welcome to these forums, and don't let this thread thwart your continued participation. We all welcome new members.

Please understand, we didn't know your background, and you could have easily made the same kinds of comments or another regarding someone else in a one off video you found reckless.

We all hope you and your kids enjoy your adventures, safely.

The people of these forums want the best for Segway users first and foremost, and for the Segway as well. Many of us have owned Segways since the reveal, and soon after, that experience and knowhow is priceless, and I hope you'll explore the threads here to learn more about our accumulated experiences.

We know what constitutes, as general Segway operational standards deem as being dangerous, and quite frankly, what your kids were doing on the video was indeed dangerous. Now, in hindsight, I am sure we're all glad that you were there to supervise them, but we all said what we said which came from our visceral reaction for the safety of the kids in the video. After all, what other information did we have apart from the video, we knew nothing about you.

Again, welcome to these forums, and please do have your kids wear helmets next time.

-Sal

[KSagal]

As a father, I cannot endorse riding in the manner that video demonstrated. For me, his justificaton made me fear for the well being of his children even more... I hope all goes well.

[sombody]

Hey Man- after reading you letter I just had a paradigm shift-

Thanks

rick

[Jet]

I am also a pilot and own my own aircraft, I have flown aerobatics and my kids have too. We also race drag boats and offshore race boats. Anyone seen this month's Hot Boat magazine? That's me on page 26 driving the drag boat on the top of the page.

Just because I am not same typical antique boring sue happy lazy old Segway owner as many here, doesn't make my uses for my "toy" wrong. When I am in public with my toy, I ride very slowly and I hate the fact that people rent the Segways and knock people over and make them a irritation which could make them not welcome in the near future. It is in my nature however to explore the limits of every toy I own and will continue to do so.


I have not met any antique boring segway owners on this group to date. In a recent gathering most of us were well to do business professionals with other hobbies including flying. Personally have not done aerobatics with my children as parachutes for children are hard to come by.... You were wearing parachutes or was that another oversight?

[SEGsby]

Lawn Jarts were involved in the deaths of 3 children in the US and is why they're no longer any metal ones sold since December 19, 1988 in the United States. And yes, they were a lot of fun.

All it takes is a few high profile accidents to ruin it for everyone. The often overlooked side to having fun is being responsible for the safety of yourself and others; as when you ride a Segway...

I saw no evidence of this from watching the video.

SEGsby


Does anyone remember LAWN DARTS- perfectly fun game unless you tried to catch them with your teeth.

rick

[glen_d]

I speak to this point because it think it's important.

Russian roulette is a well-known way of killing someone. It happened just yesterday a few miles from my house. The risk of death versus the return of excitement has been demonstrated as a losing proposition over and over.

Perhaps the situation for Little League Baseball is not so clear. Thousands of children are injured every year. A few even die. Millions of children live out their childhood without ever playing Little League, going on to lead happy, productive lives. Despite these outcomes, parents continue to send their children into harm's way in return for whatever benefits Little League offers. Parents, children and society have made a collective favorable judgment about Little League, based on many, many exposures to the risks and returns.

The instance of a Segway on a trampoline, however, is a unique event. There aren't any case studies on the safety of this activity. Those that would venture onto a Segway on a trampoline do so at their own risk. Perhaps you could speculate about what might have happened (but didn't happen). Was the trampoline any less safe than riding backwards, riding double, riding two Segways at once, or jumping off of curbs? All of these might be dangerous, and members here boast of these very maneuvers, sometimes including the participation or within view of children. Are these maneuvers more or less dangerous? How do you know? Did you answer for yourself or Wayne's child?

Karl tries to elevate his arguments because he's a father and I'm not. Hogwash . . . parents aren't endowed with any special intelligence (Karl seems to argue just the opposite). Then he describes his special devotion to his children - irrelevant since none of them are in the video. Finally, he decides to insult my ability to judge risk, without any knowledge of the matter at all (sorry Karl, I skydive quite safely too). TheRonster makes facetious comparisons to activities society has already labelled as dangerous and then suggests that the tape may have been edited to remove the depiction of an injury. Jet chides the father for allowing someone less than 100 pounds to operate the Segway (something a number of posters here have admitted to allowing). None of you speak to the issue, and all of you try to invoke emotions instead of logic to further your argument.

The issue is whether or not the father deserves to have someone interfere in the raising of his child. What's the difference between "I wouldn't do that" and "Wayne's a bad man"? You can point out that your personal risk assessment would be different without much effect. But if you damn the father for his judgment when his actions did not injure the child, you call for an intrusion into your own life too.

If it takes such a low hurdle to intrude in Wayne's life, perhaps the hurdle is low for you too. "Your kids haven't been hurt yet, but they could be, and we're just here for their safety," says the Child Protection Services officer. I doubt any of you would sit still for a second if the officer showed up to monitor the next wrestling session with your 5 year-old son. Intrusion into how we raise our kids ought to take an extraordinarily high threshold. As a parent, you ought to be afforded the greatest latitude possible in how you raise your children. I'd wager most of you would fight for it. Intrusion only after reckless and consistent disregard for the child's welfare, difficult to prove without result, is the standard most people would choose for themselves.

Our society has become increasingly numb to foisting responsibility for raising children on others. Many parents seem to have abdicated their responsibility (I don't hear any on SegwayChat). "The school will teach them all they need to know; They're friend's will keep them out of trouble; The parole officer will straighten them up; Maybe prison will get them on the right track." Parents have uttered all of these to me personally and to my community.

Our society doesn't need more help raising kids, it needs less. Parents need to take responsibility, and society has to stop making it convenient not to do so. That means we must not interfere with parents except in cases of reckless and consistent disregard for a child's welfare. I don't think a child riding a Segway on a trampoline without getting hurt meets that difficult test.

Glen

[Sal]

Okay, I'm moving this thread off-topic.

-Sal

[TheRonster]

TheRonster makes facetious comparisons to activities society has already labelled as dangerous and then suggests that the tape may have been edited to remove the depiction of an injury.
Actually, I was homing in on your "but look, he wasn't hurt" argument, which was problematic to begin with, and which moreover was buttressed only by someone's self-edited, self-submitted videotape. YEs, it IS edited (not "may have been edited") into at least three chunks. Each segment ends abruptly right after something a bit shaky happens. It made me wonder "what happened next?" Can you say, definitively?

You're pinning your entire defense on the "fact" that no person or property was harmed. If you want logic, that very same defense is 100% perfect almost every time for Russian Roulette. Why don't you stick with that defense for Russian Roulette and slingshot Jarts? A kid could try it several times on UNedited videotape without getting hurt. Why do you even care whether society has "already labeled as dangerous" my comparison activities, since the relative danger of having your kids do these things is (according to you) nobody else's business to judge?

None of you speak to the issue, and all of you try to invoke emotions instead of logic to further your argument.
No, I used logic to poke holes in your excuses for blatantly reckless behavior that, by the way, doesn't even look fun or exciting. You're the one trying to pitch this into an emotional civil rights case, raising the spectre that if we don't look the other way when the Russian Roulette fad catches on, someday a busybody gubmint bureaucracy will end up deciding what color crayons my little girl can use.

You keep saying nobody has a right to interfere with the father who set that up and videotaped it. So far as I can remember, none of us did interfere. None of us said we had a right to interfere. I don't recall giving Segway Tramp Dad any advice on any other aspect of his child-raising philosophies.

But I stand by my initial reaction. It looks to me like a dumb, risky thing to do with almost no payoff in adrenalin. It's not a parental-rights case. And if you don't want people commenting on it, you don't set it up on Google Video for all the world to see.

[waynen]

Yes we do, and a ballistic recovery chute to boot and relitively low risk aerobatics, mostly loops and rolls while the kids are on board. Also, they never see actual race speeds in the boats or cars although still much more than most people ever see. Sorry about the antique comment, sounded like a bunch of people older than I will ever be, bashing on my way of living life.

I have not met any antique boring segway owners on this group to date. In a recent gathering most of us were well to do business professionals with other hobbies including flying. Personally have not done aerobatics with my children as parachutes for children are hard to come by.... You were wearing parachutes or was that another oversight?

[sombody]

At least they werent smoking cigarettes too-

rick

[sholloway]

I didn't mention anything about someone sending in Child Services to take away Wayne's kids. I said it was stupid to let his kids jump on a trampoline on a Segway, and then noted further the most basic safety precautions weren't being taken, like a helmet, a nearby adult to even try to grab a kid as they were falling, pillows on the bars. And if you don't have kids, you are at a disadvantage for discussing how much risk you should let your kid take. Your kid's brain cannot properly assess risks until they're over 20 years old from what I've read. Therefore it is the parent that has to make this decision. If you're not a parent, no matter how many times you hear someone say "I never knew I could love someone this much", you'll never know how much that is.
I love that you keep pointing out that no one actually got hurt in the video. Then you keep telling us things we are saying is irrelevant. I think the fact that no one was hurt in the video is completely irrelevant. None of the people playing russian roulette get shot in the head right up until the very hundreth of a second when one of them gets shot in the head. That doesn't mean it's only dangerous AFTER someone gets shot. You even say that if it isn't our specific child in the video we can't comment on whether it is too much risk or not. I'm sure if this were some type of scientific debate on whether or not the kids in the video were harmed and we could only use the video as evidence then you could end up winning. But to say they didn't get hurt so there is no unneccessary risk is WAY oversimplifying. You say society should stay out of it, then you say society decided it's dangerous to play russion roulette. You've got some logic in there but you keep bouncing around.

Wayne, thank you for posting here. It was much easier to talk about you when you weren't here, using the Big Man behind the internet where no one can see you thing. But now that you are hear I would love it if you could comment even more. Of course you don't have to answer any of us but I'm curious. When you say "older than I will ever be" are you referring to a disease that you mentioned earlier or are you referring to a risky lifestyle that you think may end your life earlier than average? I'm pretty sure you love your kids as much as I love mine. Can you think of anything that would make me SO against what you were doing in the video and make you OK with it? As a child were you allowed to explore more risky activities? Do you feel you were safe or lucky? I am not looking to call you names anymore here, just discuss it with you. Thanx for your time.

[waynen]

I was referring to the diseases that effect the men in our family. as a child there was no way to keep me from risky activities. I can't say I didn't have any luck, but I did keep the risk within my own safty range although that didn't always fall into others idea of safe. Lets face it, if any of us was given 24 hours to live, how many hours would we sleep? None I say. But again I admit, I should have had helmets on all of us. My car would never move from the driveway without seatbelts on them, and I of course use all mandated safety equipment as well as some optional ones in my various other hobbies. I was involved in a motorcycle accident back in 1985 in which I broke ny seventh cervical as well as many other injuries, and the helmet saved me there. Was a collision with a car which was not my fault, and I also did not sue even though clearly, I could have spending 19 months in bed. I believe accidents are accidents, had they been drinking, It would have been a different story. BTW, I am a Sheriff's deputy and make my main living as an auto repossessor. I guess I have a different idea of what dangerous than others here. I have strong beliefs that I live by. For instance, I don't believe that any parent should be able to sign consent to have their minor child get a tatoo. I think tatoo's are like sex, until you are old enough to make your own decision, nobody, not even your parent should be allowed to make a choice like that for you. Thanks for your comments.


Wayne, thank you for posting here. It was much easier to talk about you when you weren't here, using the Big Man behind the internet where no one can see you thing. But now that you are hear I would love it if you could comment even more. Of course you don't have to answer any of us but I'm curious. When you say "older than I will ever be" are you referring to a disease that you mentioned earlier or are you referring to a risky lifestyle that you think may end your life earlier than average? I'm pretty sure you love your kids as much as I love mine. Can you think of anything that would make me SO against what you were doing in the video and make you OK with it? As a child were you allowed to explore more risky activities? Do you feel you were safe or lucky? I am not looking to call you names anymore here, just discuss it with you. Thanx for your time.

[glen_d]

People whose arguments consist solely of hyperbole usually think they've stumbled onto some form of entertainment, but just in case you're really confused, I'll address your comments.

----------

. . . Actually, I was homing in on your "but look, he wasn't hurt" argument, which was problematic to begin with, and which moreover was buttressed only by someone's self-edited, self-submitted videotape . . .

. . . It made me wonder "what happened next?" Can you say, definitively?
My statements that the child wasn't hurt are based on the video: you are quite right. Apart from the representation of the person who made the video (and I can’t tell if you reject that) I cannot know what is missing from the video to a certainty that would satisfy you. A discussion about what is not on the video is not a debate, it's conjecture. It is impossible to defend a position – yours or mine – based on conjecture. The widely-applied standard in our society is that events are judged on what is known, not what is unknown.

----------
YEs, it IS edited (not "may have been edited") into at least three chunks. Each segment ends abruptly right after something a bit shaky happens.
I never said it may have been edited, I said "TheRonster makes facetious comparisons to activities society has already labeled as dangerous and then suggests that the tape may have been edited to remove the depiction of an injury." You bring up the idea that an injury could be omitted with editing here:
That kind of "logic" and a bit of video editing could be used to prove that Russian roulette is a safe thing to do with a revolver
We can all see the tape was edited, and your suggestion that I somehow represented otherwise is sophomoric.

----------
You're pinning your entire defense on the "fact" that no person or property was harmed. If you want logic, that very same defense is 100% perfect almost every time for Russian Roulette. Why don't you stick with that defense for Russian Roulette and slingshot Jarts?
You answer your own question here. You note that the “very same defense is 100% perfect almost every time.” Even if the activity doesn’t kill someone, as you say “almost every time,” the activity has been show to kill sometimes. Society has correctly judged that trading a life, even at a low frequency, for the excitement of Russian Roulette or throwing lawn darts in the air is not appropriate. Society came to this conclusion over many examples of the questioned behavior. The case of a Segway on a trampoline is one case, one time, with no evidence of any injury. No one has even attempted to offer a comparative analysis of the danger involved on a trampoline against other accepted and dangerous activities (riding double, riding backwards, and so on). Everyone immediately leaps to the assumption that the activity is unacceptably dangerous. So far, it’s less dangerous than the cumulative experience of Little League.

----------
You're the one trying to pitch this into an emotional civil rights case, raising the specter that if we don't look the other way when the Russian Roulette fad catches on, someday a busybody gubmint bureaucracy will end up deciding what color crayons my little girl can use.
I’m not asking you to look the other way. I said, “Intrusion only after reckless and consistent disregard for the child's welfare, difficult to prove without result, is the standard most people would choose for themselves.” You’ll be hard pressed to find someone who would argue that allowing a child to play Russian Roulette doesn’t constitute reckless disregard for the child’s welfare – I certainly think it does. Sometimes intrusion is necessary: I would act to protect a child truly in danger just like most everyone else. But I think the threshold for interfering with a parent ought to be higher than no demonstrated injury after one ride on a Segway on a trampoline.

----------
You keep saying nobody has a right to interfere with the father who set that up and videotaped it. So far as I can remember, none of us did interfere. None of us said we had a right to interfere. I don't recall giving Segway Tramp Dad any advice on any other aspect of his child-raising philosophies.
Let me help you remember:
Classic depiction of "someone with more money than brains ...."
That’s not you saying whether or not you’d let your kids do something like the video, that’s your judgment of Wayne. It sounds like you’re saying “Wayne’s a bad man” to me.

If Wayne is really a bad father, recklessly exposing his child to danger, how can you damn Wayne and ignore the child’s plight? A rational person cannot. If you condemn Wayne, you advocate to help the child – that’s your interference. If you don’t want to interfere, delegate the judgment about safety to Wayne except in cases of extremes, like Russian Roulette.

----------
It looks to me like a dumb, risky thing to do with almost no payoff in adrenalin.
That sounds like you saying you wouldn’t operate your Segway on a trampoline. Maybe you do get it.

Glen

[sholloway]

I still think there is a HUGE difference between "interfering" with a parent and strongly disagreeing with a parent. No one has said we should find Wayne and try an interfere with the raising of his children. That doesn't mean we can't say how we believe the video shows dangerous activities. It sounds like Wayne wouldn't let his kids do this again at least without more safety precautions and Wayne was there and certainly knows if there was an injury or not. When that video was put on the internet it was basically offered up for feedback, that's what we've given, feedback. Again, you're wanting to have a scientific, if not philosophical debate regarding exactly what happened in the video. We're debating activities that might be dangerous and what "could have" happened or "might happen" in the future. We all KNOW we don't KNOW what will happen in the future, that doesn't make a discussion of it useless. I think we debating apples and oranges.

[sholloway]

Wayne, thanx again for posting. Most people would have read our comments and just logged on with explicatives and insults and left it at that. Other than driving like an idiot when I was 16 (which my parents didn't know about) I don't think I've been involved in many risky activities. I did repo a car once that I was owner financing and that was pretty scary. I guess being raised the way I was and you having the childhood you had we just have very different perspectives on risk. I know for a fact these things are too dangerous for kids and you know for a fact that they aren't. Obviously neither are fact but it's what we'll believe and no one will probably ever change our minds. So, I'm very sorry to hear about any possible medical problems you may have in the future but I hope you enjoy your years with your kids and I'm sure I will with mine. Good luck Wayne.

[glen_d]

If you're not a parent, no matter how many times you hear someone say "I never knew I could love someone this much", you'll never know how much that is.

Is that right? So I love my wife less than you love your child? You're a better judge of the safety of others because you're a parent? I don't think so.

Unlike many people, I get paid for my good judgment. Maybe I love my job less than you love your child, but that doesn't stop me from saving people's lives. About a month ago, I judged the pilot of a Learjet to be confused and in trouble. I reached out and had him call me. He was disoriented on a complicated pilot-nav approach in the middle of the night into a runway surrounded by the Pacific Ocean on three sides. He had no idea where he was except that he was in trouble. I helped him set up for another approach, but he flubbed that too. Finally, I got him calmed down and slowed down enough to successfully complete a third approach. He's lucky to be alive. His family is lucky to still have him around. So is the family of the nurse in the back. I only hope the patient on this medivac flight fared as well.

The pilot called the facility and thanked us for keeping him alive. My childless judgment has saved a dozen airplanes full of people over the years. Plenty of my coworkers - childless and not - have done the same thing. So don't give me your malarkey about parents being endowed with some special capability for judgment.

Glen

[sombody]

Alot of parents still smoke in the car with the windows rolled up-
and what about Croc hunter Steve Irwin ?

Where is Dr Phil ?

rick

[sholloway]

Thank you for saving that pilot and that nurse and their families. Cudos to you. Your story is irrelevant and no matter how many times you hear someone say "I never knew I could love someone this much" you'll never understand until you have a kid. And if there were some way to measure "love" I would gladly say I do love my kids more than you love your wife. And until you have a kid, you're not qualified to compare the parent child relationship to the husband wife relationship, no matter how much logic, how much you get paid to have judgement, no matter how well your sixth sense works on when pilots are in trouble. It's wild because you're being so logical but logically you should know that if you've only experienced one of those relationships then you wouldn't be able to compare the two of them.

[KSagal]

It seems that no one in that plane got hurt, so according to your original logic, there was no danger.

I never offered comparitive values as to how much this man loves his children. I also did not know that your love for your wife allows her to jump from the stairs without looking...

What I said is that a dad has responsibilities. He has the responsibility to look out for his children in a manner that he would not look out for an adult. Wayne aggreed that the safety measures I said were lacking were indeed lacking, and that if he did it again, he would add helmets and more safety...

I don't think I complained about the seg on the trampoline as you claim that everyone did. I complained about the father not insisting on the safety measures that I felt were required.

I have never been an air traffic controller, but I am a pilot, a jumpmaster and an instructor of skydivers and jumpmasters. I can have the intellectual capacity to understand your story. Intellectual capacity is not enough to understand the bond between child and parent. It is a completely different relationship between adults. I have a wife and children. I have been where you are, you have not been where I am.

I would argue that stupid people can be good parents. It is not about judgement alone. I can imagine that we all know very intellegent, very bad parents.

Waynes first post about acrobatics with the kids, and rides in the racing boat scared me. I said so. His next posts backed off a bit. As an air traffic professional, you likely know that aerobatics require the pilot to have a parachute, and there are no paracutes for kids. Thankfully, Wayne has taken a far less aggressive and defensive role in his posts (and that posture may have seemed quite justified to him) and has given us much more and far better mittigated information...

I still do not agree with some of his choices, but have voiced all along that I would not interfere lightly, and do indeed set a very high threshold to interferance...

So I believe we have all gone almost full circle. No one wants to interfere with this parent, and he agrees that some safety gear was lacking and he would not do that video exactly the same way next time. We are all a lot closer than further. Let's call it a win-win.

[cruiter]

Folks, IMO, the only reason we're paying this much attention to this topic is The're not shipping the i2's yet Does anyone think the're getting the straight skinny on why they aren't shipping on schedule. It's personal with me, I just want to glide and quit being a pest to my dealer Scott of Segway of Alpharetta.

[austin@SOH]

I just got word that they should be shipping units by the end of september....

[cruiter]

That's really late, I wish they would communicate with the dealers better as to their problems. Not communicating to the dealers or customers creates doubts that linger.
Jim
I just got word that they should be shipping units by the end of september....

[Markiss]

Wow, I was just really impressed with how safe the Segway must be to be able to handle having someone "jumping" up and down on it on a trampoline! By the way, I'm a dad, and I won't even let my kids get on a trampoline. (but, I hear they do when I'm not around, what can you do)
Mark

[bystander]

Wow, I was just really impressed with how safe the Segway must be to be able to handle having someone "jumping" up and down on it on a trampoline! By the way, I'm a dad, and I won't even let my kids get on a trampoline. (but, I hear they do when I'm not around, what can you do)
MarkApparently, nowadays, you can video it and then post it on the internet!