Situation in Israel

[ZoliHonig]

I was just curious what everyone was thinking about the current situation that is going on in Israel/ Lebanon/ Gaza....

[pam]

I'm praying for everyone caught up as innocent bystanders in the situation, Zoli. Or are you asking if I have a judgment about who is right and who is wrong?

I have some disconnected thoughts... Those who live by the sword, die by the sword - I think truer words were probably never written.

I know that I don't understand whole cultures that base their behaviors on some slight they perceived, possibly generations ago, and are willing to kill for it, rather than find some way to work together. In my book, killing doesn't achieve anything, except incite the other side to more killing until one side or the other is blasted off the face of the earth.

Nor do I understand politicians who use that kind of "nationalism" or "religion" to whip young members into killing behaviors for political reasons.

My God requires compassion and love, not death and destruction, so I have to admit, I don't understand it.

I'm just praying we don't end up with a conflagration that spreads across the region.

Pam

[Desert_Seg]

Couple of points:

1. Thanks to the various messages I have gotten regarding my well being. Well appreciated but....Beirut is a little over 3.5 hours away BY AIR from where I sit right now, so no, I'm not in danger.

2. Beirut is a beautiful city and Lebanon is a wonderful country. Have visited both many times and love both. In fact, my last girlfriend and the last bottle of wine I opened were both Lebanese!

3. It hurts to know that all the work that had gone into redeveloping the BCD (Beirut Central District), to redeveloping Hamra and Verdan (home of the region's (if not the world's) busiest Starbucks), to redeveloping the Beirut Tourism Industry, is now being destroyed, all over a stupid act.

4. Israel is also a beautiful country and has some beautiful cities, including Haifa, Jerusalem, and Tel Aviv all of which I've visited more than once. I have also had Israeli wine but have yet to have an Israeli girlfriend.

5. It is very bothersome is that these two countries, whose people most definitely want to live in peace, with others and with each other, are being used as pawns by the Hezbollah in a battle that has no end and no winner.

6. Unfortunately, I was in Haifa the last time it got shelled, and, also unfortunatley, the last time I was in Tel Aviv, as I was walking to a mall (less than 5 minutes away) when a suicide bomber detonated himself, causing countless deaths and grieveous damage.

So, while I deplore the damage that is being wrought upon Lebanon and the Lebanese people, I also understand the actions taken by Israel. No, I don't think they are excessive, they are the actions needed in order to ensure that the Hezbollah understands that for every action there is an equal but quite possibly much graver reaction.

Hezbollah made a grievous mistake in kidnapping those two soldiers, an act they said they had been plannig for 5 months. Unfortunately, it is time to pay the piper and the people of Lebanon are suffering.

Having traveled throughout Lebanont, including the Bekka Valley, and having many friends who currently live in Lebanon, in Beirut, and even in Tripoli (the one in Lebanon, not Libya), I am regularly seeking information on them.

Having many Lebanese friends whose parents are still in Lebanon, I'm constantly trying to help them find out their status.

But, more importnatnly, knowing how much Israelis and Lebanese so much want peace, so much want to live together, so much want to
end this madness, I'm constantly in dialogue with many individuals who all believe as I do.

This tit for tat has to stop, but when and how is not anticipated soon.

As an Arabist this pains me because the Arab people are being tarred with a brush they don't deserve. As a humanist, I only wish we could find a way to eradicate this extremism.

As Mahatma Ghandi said "An Eye for and Eye and the world will soon be blind". Unfortunately, both sides are going to exact their pound of flesh and I don't soon see an end to this sad mark on our history.

Steven

[Sal]

As Mahatma Ghandi said "An Eye for and Eye and the world will soon be blind". Unfortunately, both sides are going to exact their pound of flesh and I don't soon see an end to this sad mark on our history.

Steven


Amen to that. Gandhi is a hero of mine. Not only was I born in his country, but I also admire the work that his family and his supporters did for freedom, and development in India.

I hope that peace finds it's way into the Middle East as well as the rest of the world.

He also said the following:

"As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world - that is the myth of the atomic age - as in being able to remake ourselves. "

-Sal

[GyroGo]

Gandhi is a hero of mine.
Gandhi is a hero to me, too. The Palestinians made more progress gaining Gaza and the West Bank with hopes of peace than will ever be gained through terror and force. It is ignorant and short-sighted to think that terror will accomplish the desired political goals, rather than further entrench Israelis in their resentment and fear, even if you discount the lack of honor, morality, and ethics in each attack that is without regard to civilian casualty. Abbas could have accomplished more than a thousand Hezbollah missles hitting civilian areas in Israel.

Hamas and the Hezbollah are not very concerned with selecting military targets and operating under the conventional moral and ethical rules of military engagement. Israel's military certainly presents enough visible targets but it is easier to target civilians. Kidnaping soldiers in "peace time" is certainly not acceptable and clearly a provocation of war.

It seems clear to most Americans that Israel is acting within her rights of self-defense. There are horrible human tragedies that are the result of even the most competently calculated and executed military actions, especially when the enemy combatants mix themselves in civilian populations. While there are undoubtedly painful tragedies resulting from Israel’s military actions, it does appear that Israel makes a conscientious effort to select military targets and minimize "collateral" damage.

In a perfect world we would all live together in peace with respect and trust for one another (because "love" is just WAY TOO PERFECT to ask for). But, sadly, this does not seem to be a dream with a basis in reality. It appears inevitable that countries like Iran will eventually have nuclear weapons. Stephen Hawking says we need to colonize space to help ensure the survival of our species. I fear that he is right.

[Desert_Seg]

I'd like to add one thing to this topic.

In almost every discussion I have had with Arabs, including many of Lebanese and Palestinian descent, the great majority have blamed Hezbollah, hope that Israel won't stop until they reach the Syrian border in the North / West and the Hezbollah are routed.

Intersting the "reception" that the Hezbollah is receiving here!

Steven

[GyroGo]

I'm really no scholar of the region, but it does appear that the Lebanese people would be a beneficiary of a weaker Hezbollah.

[Sal]

I'd like to add one thing to this topic.

In almost every discussion I have had with Arabs, including many of Lebanese and Palestinian descent, the great majority have blamed Hezbollah, hope that Israel won't stop until they reach the Syrian border in the North / West and the Hezbollah are routed.

Intersting the "reception" that the Hezbollah is receiving here!

Steven

This is not the perception that is put forth by the media / current administration. This administration (or the media's spin) wants to make it seem like it's Arab vs. Israel / West, which I know is not the case.

My mother and father have plenty of friends in the Middle East both Jewish and Muslim, on both sides, and Steven you're right on. The majority of folks are merely caught in the middle of extremist fighting, that is the real story which needs to be told.

-Sal

[pam]

What I recently heard (whether it is true or not, I don't know... we can't trust what we hear on the news anymore) - is that Hezbollah took the soldiers so that they would have someone to trade for prisoners currently held by Israel, and Israel finally said, "enough." -

It's a very convoluted poltical situation there, and with Newt Gingrich running around calling it WWIII, it's not making me breathe a little easier.
:o
Pam

[Sal]

What I recently heard (whether it is true or not, I don't know... we can't trust what we hear on the news anymore) - is that Hezbollah took the soldiers so that they would have someone to trade for prisoners currently held by Israel, and Israel finally said, "enough." -

It's a very convoluted poltical situation there, and with Newt Gingrich running around calling it WWIII, it's not making me breathe a little easier.
:o
Pam
I read that... for all who missed it: All the relevant links are in this post:

http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/53048

-Sal

[ZoliHonig]

I'm really no scholar of the region, but it does appear that the Lebanese people would be a beneficiary of a weaker Hezbollah.

On Hanity and Colmes tonight, Benjamin Netanyahu (former PM of Israel) was asked to respond to the Lebanese PM comments that Israel was a murderous country, and are destroying their democracy and their country.... to which Netanyahu responded, I doubt that the Lebanese PM can say on FOX news that he like what Israel is doing, but I am fairly sure that he's saying to his close buddys, I hope Israel doesn't stop untill they wipe out Hezbollah for good....

It's amazing how almost exactly one year ago Isrrael withdrew from the ENTIRE gaza strip and gave it over to the Palestinians, and granted them autonomy.... 12 months later, it's a terrorist run state with daily attacks on the one who granted its autonomy....

This is simmilar to Lebanon as well... 6 years ago Israel pulled out... It was quiet... they were unprovoked... but attacked us nonetheless....

[Desert_Seg]

Just a quick note before I run out to a meeting...

1. Hasan Nasrallah, the head of the Hezbollah, has stated on TV that their kidnapping of the two soldiers had been planned for 5 months and was done IOT gain the release of thousands of captured "soldiers"

2. Benjamin Netanyahu is dead on. Would you be willing to go on TV and ask Israel to keep on coming until such time as the Hezbollah have been decimated? I wouldn't because that would be tantamount to asking to be killed.

3. There is no telling why suddenly both the Hamas and the Hezbollah have decided to act. Neither of their actions get them any points in any court of opinion and, worse of all, there is a quiet undertone of disbelief that they would do something this stupid.

4. Israel is actually getting points for showing some restraint although they still come in for condemnation by the very vocal and anti Israel press.

All in all, this is a sad state of affairs, made worse by the incalcitrant behaviour of the so called soldiers.

One point to ponder...when (if) they show shots of the Lebanese amassing trying to cross the border, look for all the single men who are also seeking to cross and ask yourself the following questions:

a) Where are their families? Their girlfriends?
b) Why are some of them so clean shaven?
c) What is that band of "white skin" around the edge of their face?

Can you say deserter? Is Syria the new Canada (home of the draft dodger in Vietnam, not meant to be anything bad).

Food for thought,

Steven

[citivolus]

I notice two trends. The first is the economic prospects in the areas where the trouble generally originates and the second is the average age of the population. According to the CIA factbook, in the Gaza Strip the average age is under 16 and about 18.5 in the West Bank. Compare that to the near 30 average found in Israel and Lebanon. I'd wager most of the members of Hezbollah gang are just that... a gang members little different from any other street gang backed by Iranian dollars.

[Stewbonz]

POWs is probably the right term.
Kidnap victim sounds more like innocent bystanders got taken.

Either way, they should have expected big trouble.

[ZoliHonig]

POWs is probably the right term.
Kidnap victim sounds more like innocent bystanders got taken.

Either way, they should have expected big trouble.

I Disagree.... this is becaus Israel was not in a war with Lebanon or the Palestininians! So "prisoner of war" is not the right term, as this was not a war when it happened...

[Desert_Seg]

POWs is probably the right term.
Kidnap victim sounds more like innocent bystanders got taken.

Either way, they should have expected big trouble.

Jeff,

Per the Geneva Convention, a POW is someone captured as an enemy combatant during a time of war.

1. To be able to quote the GC you must be a signatory. Hezbollah is not.

2. Lebanon and Israel are not at war so you can't be a POW

3. Hezbollah is not a country and can't declare war (well the can but it doesn't mean anything)

4. Hezbollah KIDNAPPED those soldiers and if they die during captivity that is MURDER.

Any questions?

Steven

[Stewbonz]

I guess you can tell I'm not up to speed on this one.
I watch about 30 minutes of TV a week and hardly catch the newspaper these days.

[GyroGo]

As I've said before what scares me most is Iran having nuclear weapons. I half wonder whether Israel's and USA's secret gambit is to draw Iran into the conflict to nip this nuke development in the bud. However, as it may be inevitable that their development will proceed in any case, unless there is a war every few years to level their facilities, I think it is a good thing that Syria and Iran have NOT been more directly involved in acts of war during this opportunity (although their "indirect" support is certainly culpable).

Perhaps Iran and Syria deserve credit for recognizing that it is not their responsibility to eliminate Israel directly, perhaps they are just holding their cards for what they think may be a better opportunity. But in any case, the fact that we have seen other Arab and Muslim nations criticize Hamas and Hezbollah unlike we have ever seen in previous conflicts, IMHO, is some cause for hope.

Israel now says this operation will likely last another couple of weeks until they fulfil their objectives. If Hezbollah can be set back, and Hamas will lose their desire to fight Israel's right to exist and embrace reality as a result of this crisis, and resume focus on activities for the good of the Palestinian people, then maybe, just maybe, maybe, I pray, some good will come of this.

Peace.

[Desert_Seg]

Does Iran have nuclear weapons? You would be foolish to think they don't. Data:

- In 1988 the Bushehr Nuclear Powere Plant was destroyed by the Iraqis and there were strong suppositions it was done due to its refining capabilities.
- Argentina, Pakistan, South Africa, Soviet Union, and West Germany all acknowledge (in 88 and 89) that they had provided help to the Iranians in their efforts to refine Uranium
- 1989 Iranian scientist admits / announces that Tehran Uni has successfully completed a Uranium Extraction Laboratory.

Jump ahead 10 years and Iran has moved light years ahead. Nuclear equipment by the ton has been delevered to Iran, training has been received and, in case I forgot, Iran has started to extract uranium from their pits in Yazd (I think that's the town).

Move ahead 6 years to present time....IAEA inspectors are banned, new underground facilities are noted at the Research Center....and they have long range weapons that can deliver nuclear warheads.

Let's not fool ourselves. Iran has the weapons, will sell / provide them to their "allies" and, have one goal in mind....Eliminate Israel from the face of the map. Oh, and I forgot, have a certifiable lunatic as their country's leader.

So yes, I hope Israel doesn't stop until the finish the job (no, not going into Iran but eliminating the Hezbollah threat from the Levant) and that Iran decides it isn't in their best interest to get involved. Unfortunately, this region is a tinderbox and having rogue nations with nuclear weapons is not a good thing.

Steven

[GyroGo]

Does Iran have nuclear weapons? You would be foolish to think they don't.
So if they do, do they deserve credit for not taking this opportunity to use them before more "local" opposition to Israel fizzles out at this point? Or should we be extremely fearful that this conflict is not over yet, and cards are yet to be played?

maybe Newt isn't nuts?

[RC Mike]

Per the Geneva Convention, a POW is someone captured as an enemy combatant during a time of war.

1. To be able to quote the GC you must be a signatory. Hezbollah is not.

2. Lebanon and Israel are not at war so you can't be a POW

3. Hezbollah is not a country and can't declare war (well the can but it doesn't mean anything)

4. Hezbollah KIDNAPPED those soldiers and if they die during captivity that is MURDER.
Exact reason the Supreme Court's decision on Guantonimo Bay makes absolutely no sense. The treaty only applies to signatories, and Al Queda/Hamas/Hezbolla have not signed.

As far as the Isreal situation, send planes to Damascus and finish this thing. If Iran cannot send missles that way, then they will have to send them through Cairo. Simple solution there as well. Go back to 1967 and now you have a canal as a border. Not as easy to dig tunnels to smuggle weapons under the Suez. Oh well. Wishful thinking.

Mike

[Desert_Seg]

So if they do, do they deserve credit for not taking this opportunity to use them before more "local" opposition to Israel fizzles out at this point? Or should we be extremely fearful that this conflict is not over yet, and cards are yet to be played?

maybe Newt isn't nuts?

Two things to remember, most Iranians are not against the US, Israel, or all of these so called "sworn enemies". Nor do they wish to see their country destroyed by the lunacy of launching nuclear weapons.

Unfortunately, their current leadership appears to be bent on establishing himself as a martyr and we can only hope that those around him have cooler heads.

As for your question, no, they don't deserve any credit for not already launching nuclear weapons or releasing a dirty bomb (a much more likly scenario, IMO). The potential destruction of their nation, fear of such a response, is all I believe that stands in their way.

And yes, we should be fearful that this conclict is only a match strike away from a much more dangerous global conflict.

Steven

[KSagal]

I don't know of all the details, but it was related to me that the United Nations again attempted a anti-Israeli resolution. I was told that the lone pro-Israel vote was the United States, and that vote was a veto of the anti-israel resolution...

Good for us. Yet again, we stepped up and gave Americans a reason to be Proud of this great country.

[GyroGo]

morning news:

Israel also said Wednesday it did not plan to target Hezbollah's main sponsors, Iran and Syria, during the current fighting.

"We will leave Iran to the world community, and Syria as well," Vice Premier Shimon Peres told Army Radio. "It's very important to understand that we are not instilling world order."

[Sal]

Any country that would even come close to using a Nuke in this day and age would have to be crazy. Those in charge would have to know that they would be signing their death warrant.

The scary thing is that I wouldn't put it past some fanatical leaders.

Pissing contests between nations are fine... but sometimes the piss can land on another's shoe, and then all hell will break loose.

We may be coming close to that. And I hope beyond hope that cooler heads will prevail.

-Sal

[ZoliHonig]

The president of Iran reminds me of hitler... same personality that can rev up a crowd and start a world war..

[polo_pro]

The president of Iran reminds me of hitler... same personality that can rev up a crowd and start a world war..

Long ago before the internet (in the days of newsgroups only), the sure sign that a thread had completed its "useful" life was when someone mentioned Hitler. It didn't matter what the context was or who was being compared with him. It just showed that the escallation of words had reached a crescendo, and things had gone so far that nothing meaningful could be said.

So on that note, I'll no longer read this thread. Heck, I'm not even sure why I'm reading threads in off-topic...must be a slow day.

[RC Mike]

I just saw some woman screaming at a news camera "Why do they bomb us, I do not attack Isreal?!?"

I wanted to scream back "Then why do you not get them out of your neighborhoods, out of your apartment building, out of your houses, Out of your COUNTRY!"

Mike

[pam]

Maybe because Hezbollah also has an arm that is non-violent and actually provides humanitarian services to the population? Because there's a number of Hezbollah members that sit in their government? Mind you, I'm not defending Hezbollah, but I am pointing out why Hezbollah might be accepted in Lebanon.. and also why some people in Lebanon might well be pushed into defending Hezbollah, if Israel bombs civilians, women and children.

War begets more war until the last one is dead. How many generations did the Hatfields and McCoys feud?

Pam

[GyroGo]

Maybe because Hezbollah also has an arm that is non-violent and actually provides humanitarian services to the population? Because there's a number of Hezbollah members that sit in their government? Mind you, I'm not defending Hezbollah, but I am pointing out why Hezbollah might be accepted in Lebanon.. and also why some people in Lebanon might well be pushed into defending Hezbollah, if Israel bombs civilians, women and children.

War begets more war until the last one is dead. How many generations did the Hatfields and McCoys feud?

Pam
Yes, members of Hezbollah kiss their babies, and take care of their relatives and friends. They live in a community that they have an interest in improving. I do not accept that people are either good OR evil, we all have done good deeds and bad, we all have kind thoughts and some not so nice thoughts about others.

But clearly one who lives in Lebanon who supports Hezbollah instead of other parties or organizations that can provide civilized solutions is making a choice in favor of what Hezbollah stands for. It is the duty of able bodied adult Lebanese to STAND UP and act in the best interest of their country. This current crisis is the consequence of that not happening.

It is clear that Israel does not TARGET innocent civilians, though they are sometimes unintended victims. Hezbollah and Hamas indiscriminately sends missles into populated areas and terrorists that those groups SUPPORT do TARGET civilians.

Pacifism is not going to stop Hamas and Hezbollah, this is CLEAR. I don't know about the objective of each Hatfield and McCoy attack, but I do know that Israel's purpose is to provide long-term security for her innocent civilians.

[Desert_Seg]

Maybe because Hezbollah also has an arm that is non-violent and actually provides humanitarian services to the population? Because there's a number of Hezbollah members that sit in their government? Mind you, I'm not defending Hezbollah, but I am pointing out why Hezbollah might be accepted in Lebanon.. and also why some people in Lebanon might well be pushed into defending Hezbollah, if Israel bombs civilians, women and children.

War begets more war until the last one is dead. How many generations did the Hatfields and McCoys feud?

Pam

Ah, the pretty face of Hezbollah or Hamas, the face with which they try to woo the people of the world.

Quick correction - Hezbollah does NOT have an unarmed force. They have a very well trained and militarily adept military force that is illegal in Lebanon as they are not part of the Lebanese Army. They are a military force with the stated objective of destroying Israel. They ARE a military force.

I agree that Hezbollah and Hamas have a great social welfare program and have done great things for the downtrodden and poor of Southern Lebanon and Palestine. I will also agree that both Hezbollah and Hamas have been very good at eliminating corruption within their hierarchy.

HOWEVER, in order to receive the social welfare money the recipient has to claim / declare fielty to either Hamas or Hezbollah. Hmmm, would you call this coercion.

Hezbollah and Hamas have also done some great infrastructure operations such as building roads, hospitals, and the like.

HOWEVER, they only do so in the areas they control, thereby providing benefits only to those who claim fielty to Hezbollah and allow them to "run" the region / area. Hmmmm, would you call this coercion?

The Hezbollah does indeed have members in the Lebanese Parliment (they control 23 seats and 2 ministries). Unfortunatly for the ruling party, they had to side with the Hezbollah in order to win the "power". Political foes in bed together or, in keeping with the times "The Devil wears Hezbollah Camis".

Finally, I ask you to look back at the various political revolutions we have had in the last century or so. What is are three things they all have in common?

1. Appealing to the poor and downtrodden
2. Turned into autocratic and dictatorial governments / countries once they won.
3. Discriminated against their people and killed millions IOT achieve their goals.

Don't be fooled by how clean cut Hassan Nasrallah looks.
Don't be fooled by how much spin they can cast.

Look at their military tactics:

1. They put most of their military weapons AT civilian areas
2. They fire most of their military weapons AT civilian areas

Then ask yourself why all the people who leave their organization go into hiding....

Then ask yourself one very simple question. If they (whether it be Hamas or the Hezbollah) are seeking peace for their people, why are they so willing to sacrifice their people?

Simply put, neither the Hezbollah nor Hamas are nice. Not at all.

Steven

Steven

[GyroGo]

Is it too late for me to change my last post to what Steven just said?

Steven, let me know when you're in Chicago, beers on me. Let me know if you need help with Cubs tix.

[Desert_Seg]

Is it too late for me to change my last post to what Steven just said?

Steven, let me know when you're in Chicago, beers on me. Let me know if you need help with Cubs tix.

What could be better than a glide to Wrigley, taking in a game with a plie of brats and beer?

The glide home might be challenging but what a great day that would be!

Steven

[GyroGo]

What could be better than a glide to Wrigley, taking in a game with a plie of brats and beer?

The glide home might be challenging but what a great day that would be!

Steven
Just avoid all routes through Lebanon - more challenge than skidding into that parking space with a stogie in one hand and a beer in the other.

Here's what i'm talkin' about:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13961120/

[pam]

I've edited your post, only so because I'm only replying to part of it - not because the rest of it has no value, it has value...

One of the things I've seen over the years, has been that when people are shocked, when they perceive that their lives are in tatters, they will support anything that brings them a sense of strength, that provides them with literally day-to-day support, that makes them feel safe.

Looking at Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, the need to be fed and housed will always be met before some of the "higher" needs can even be addressed. Many people will give up freedom in a heartbeat if they fear that those needs will be not be met. As I recall, Lebanon has had a history of war, with the poor people caught in the middle. You can blame the poor, but that's blaming the victims.

And yes, neither Hezbollah nor Hamas are nice - however, I think the question originally was, why didn't the people tell them to get out. I'm guessing that this is the reason.

Pam



Ah, the pretty face of Hezbollah or Hamas, the face with which they try to woo the people of the world.


I agree that Hezbollah and Hamas have a great social welfare program and have done great things for the downtrodden and poor of Southern Lebanon and Palestine. I will also agree that both Hezbollah and Hamas have been very good at eliminating corruption within their hierarchy.

HOWEVER, in order to receive the social welfare money the recipient has to claim / declare fielty to either Hamas or Hezbollah. Hmmm, would you call this coercion.

Hezbollah and Hamas have also done some great infrastructure operations such as building roads, hospitals, and the like.

HOWEVER, they only do so in the areas they control, thereby providing benefits only to those who claim fielty to Hezbollah and allow them to "run" the region / area. Hmmmm, would you call this coercion?
Then ask yourself one very simple question. If they (whether it be Hamas or the Hezbollah) are seeking peace for their people, why are they so willing to sacrifice their people?

Simply put, neither the Hezbollah nor Hamas are nice. Not at all.

Steven

Steven

[Desert_Seg]

One of the things I've seen over the years, has been that when people are shocked, when they perceive that their lives are in tatters, they will support anything that brings them a sense of strength, that provides them with literally day-to-day support, that makes them feel safe. ... And yes, neither Hezbollah nor Hamas are nice - however, I think the question originally was, why didn't the people tell them to get out. I'm guessing that this is the reason.

Pam

Yes, Maslow's Theory of Needs does apply. However, ask yourself, how did the Lebanese people get into these dire straits? 20 years of civil war, followed by military action against Israel.

Who was behind the civil war and the military action against Israel? The Muslim factions.

Who was was one of the the Muslim factions? Hezbollah

Ergo, Hezbollah created the problem that then stepped in and fixed, with help from Syria and Iran, help that neither Syria nor Iran offered to mainstream Lebanon.

You're right, the Lebanese people didn't ask them to leave but that's hard to do staring down the barrel of a gun. You also need to be aware that many of the Hezbollah followers are displaced Palestinians who live in refugee camps in southern Lebanon (the Bekkaa Valley is dotted wth them) or in Southern Beirut.

The amount of anger at the Hezbollah that I see now is easily ten times greater than I've ever seen before. Hassan Nasrallah didn't help himself or the Hezbollah when he announced this morning that the kidnapped Israeli soldiers would never be returend, except during an exchange for prisoners being held by Israel, regardless how many people died and how much pressure was placed upon them by the world community.

Steven

[pam]

Yes, I've also noticed that now that a lot of their basic needs have been met, infrastructure improved, etc., some Lebanese are finally getting angry with Hezbollah for endangering it.

As I see it, Nasrallah is doing himself and his party no good by promising unending warfare... which is a perceived possibility if he intends to hang onto his prisoners. I think, though, that he's hoping that if the Jewish keep attacking Lebanon, then the population will get angry with the Jews for ruining the infrastructure and he'll come out OK. He's playing a game of "chicken" with this, I think. (For our non-USAn's, that's a game that was/is played between teenagers [usually male with more testosterone than brains] where they'd take two cars, sitting on the center line of the road facing each other but a distance apart. They'd race towards each other and the one who veered the first to avoid a crash was called "chicken" - )

Pam

[GyroGo]

You can blame the poor, but that's blaming the victims.

I'm not blaming the victims. In fact, I offer that since they aren't able to help themselves, Israel is doing them a favor. France helped us in the Revolutionary War (I think that was the last time:rolleyes: ) and how many times has the US fought to the benefit of other countries, other peoples? Hmmm, just every war on foreign soil.

Those Lebanese who have been opposed to Hezbollah but have failed to act (but not supported them) because of Maslow's needs are true innocent victims, and Israel is doing them a real favor by doing their work for them. (To say nothing of the history of American war heros who sacrificed all basic human needs, including life itself, for the higher societal good - for liberty from tyranny, for freedom, for honor, for principal, for the future of their people).

Those Lebanese who have provided even tacit support to Hezbollah must bear a level of responsibility for Hezbollah's existence, they chose to not support the alternatives.

[KSagal]

Much of this reminds me of the exact same situations that exist in almost every single society in the world...

In Boston, in decades past, there was an Irish Mafia that was called the WInter Hill gang. The were a brutal band of thugs that murdered many innocent people. They also force many legitimate businesses to pay 'protection' money. Many times, the protection was from them.

They also did provide services to those whom they victimized. If you had a shop and paid your fee to these criminals, and someone else up the street wanted to start a shop to compete, these thugs would help you, unless the other guy paid a bigger fee.

Many people felt helpless to fight these powerful mobsters.

Most major and many minor cities had similar stories.

Most every congress and government agency has some level of corruption.

But is all comes down to where the lines are drawn. Hezbollah is far more than a group of thugs skimming some from the larger society. THe legitimate government of Lebanon is afraid of them. If they speak against these brutal animals, Prime Minister, or anyone's life is forfit.

What is the difference between a local thief and the way the big dig (15 Billion $ tunnel road system) that is in Boston, yet the tunnels are falling in. The difference is the intensity.

A group of thugs in a larger society has a negative effect. That group taking over, dismantles that society, and it stops being a civilization.

To legitimize Hezbollah in any way by saying that they do positive things for the invironment they create is to ignor their tactics. They hide amongst their own children. They target other people's children. I do not care what road they built so that they can move their illegal rocket launchers around, and for a fee, they may let the locals use it...

They say that Stalin killed and jailed 100s of thousands of people, but the trains ran on time. (Because a conductor on a late train was likely to get shot). Some will ignor all but the train timetable...

I am constantly in awe of people that have a very liberal and self labled progressive bend, that are very consilitory and want to allow these honorless beasts to continue to attack Israel, when if the tables were turned, these beasts would have absolutely no hesitation in killing the very people who cut them the most slack...

We have many places around the world where we can sit back and pontificate on the pro and con of this and that. Those who are in northern (no, all of) Israel, or southern Lebanon cannnot sit around and debate this. They are huddling in dark holes and are wondering if they will survive another day...

How would you feel if the street gang in the next town had missles aimed at your house, and they had already killed your neighbor? You would not care that they sometimes give the disenfranchised youth as sense of belonging, you would want the government to route them out! On the other hand, when it happens far away, it is easy to say the authorities are too heavy handed...

So often, we make decisions from a distance that would not be the same ones we make when in the battle...

I believe that there is no justification for this violence. Unfortunately, you cannot have peace with people that do not want it. I beleive that Israel wants peace, but that Hezbollah does not. I also believe that Israel feels that because of this, there will be no peace as long as Hezbollah can cause a threat. I agree, and the sad part is, so does Hezbollah...

[pam]

You know, Karl, if you'd quit calling people names, based on your own ideological bent, you might find that they agree with you.

I'm simply stating what is (people who suffer depredations tend to seek to have those needs met and will support those who help them get their daily needs met, which may be one reason why the Lebonese have allowed the Hezbollah to operate within their borders), I'm not saying that Hezbollah is a "good" organization. Nor do I believe this to be a "good" war.

I am not in a position to legitimize them or not. Discussing what they have done which has contributed to the situation at hand does not legitimize them.

Cheap shots at "liberals" or "progressives" are not necessary nor appreciated.

Pam

[GyroGo]

Pacifism will not solve this problem.

Able bodied young American men came to Valley Forge without shoes and at great sacrifice to themselves and their families basic needs. They did this without regard of food, shelter, warmth, or Maslow. They bravely and heroically gave their limbs and lives for the greater societal good, for the future, FOR US. And their families sacrificed plenty as well.

I don't know that I am cut of the same cloth as these great patriots, but it is character that separates those who act from those with excuses.

Those who fail to act do so at their own peril.

We can sit in our cozy living room armchairs and criticize violence and advocate pacifism, but that is a gift of luxury that was unselfishly given to us by those before us with great character who bravely gave their lives for the principles we cherish dearly.

[Desert_Seg]

I think, though, that he's hoping that if the Jewish keep attacking Lebanon, then the population will get angry with the Jews for ruining the infrastructure and he'll come out OK.
Small point I'd like to make. It isn't the Jews that are attacking Lebanon, it is the Israelis. Although Israel is predominantly made up of people who follow the Jewish faith, there are also people of Muslim, Hindu, and Christian faiths who live in Israel. I know of at least one Christian who serves in their military and my guess is there are others of varying faiths..

This is NOT an ideological battle. Not one small bit.

Steven

[pam]

Admitted, Steve. Although I'm trying to recall if the Lebanese think of them as Israelis or as Jews.

I'm thinking that I probably picked up the terminology because it's the one that was being used over there - or maybe being used on some of our mainstream media over here. I'll have to listen more carefully to the news tonight.

I know when we were in Chicago at the first SegFest, there was a huge Muslim meeting in the hotel at the same time, and I remember hearing at that time some of the Muslim attendees who came over to see all the Segways and hearing a couple of them talk about "the man who invented these, he was a Jew" with a distainful tone to their voice. TBH, I hadn't thought of Dean Kamen any way other than an extraordinarily gifted human being.

I'm guessing, there are people who will make this an ideological battle, regardless.

Pam

[ZoliHonig]

Small point I'd like to make. It isn't the Jews that are attacking Lebanon, it is the Israelis. Although Israel is predominantly made up of people who follow the Jewish faith, there are also people of Muslim, Hindu, and Christian faiths who live in Israel. I know of at least one Christian who serves in their military and my guess is there are others of varying faiths..

This is NOT an ideological battle. Not one small bit.

Steven

I disagree.... I'm not an Israeli. I'm a Jew. If I walked down the street in Gaza or Lebanon i would be killed even if I wasn't an american.

This whole terrorist movement is based on jihad... holy war... that's pretty idealogical and religious sounding to me.

Even before Israel was estaplished, when Jews were living in British owned Palestine or Turkey owned Palestine before it, our Arab cousins would attack us too... even without being "israelis."

[KSagal]

You know, Karl, if you'd quit calling people names, based on your own ideological bent, you might find that they agree with you.

I'm simply stating what is (people who suffer depredations tend to seek to have those needs met and will support those who help them get their daily needs met, which may be one reason why the Lebonese have allowed the Hezbollah to operate within their borders), I'm not saying that Hezbollah is a "good" organization. Nor do I believe this to be a "good" war.

I am not in a position to legitimize them or not. Discussing what they have done which has contributed to the situation at hand does not legitimize them.

Cheap shots at "liberals" or "progressives" are not necessary nor appreciated.

Pam

You know Pam, I really was not trying to make a cheap shot. I call myself a conservative when I am talking about politics. I call myself a libertarian when I am talking about social issues. I do not consider them derogatory. When I do call some one a liberal, it is not intended as a slam. It is a value system. It did not occur to me that someone who is a liberal would consider it an insult to be called that. The same goes for progressives, especially since I even said that the people I was talking about were self proclaimed progressives...

I am sorry that you find what I say so offensive. I really am being honest, and was not trying to cause problems. I also see it interesting that you took offense to being called a liberal, yet did not feel compelled to defend the Hezbollah, whom I called beasts...

I happen to be a naturalist. I have seen mother bears, who are clearly beasts, defend their cubs against impossible odds, even sacrifice their own lives to defend them... That a being is a beast does not mean they are without honor.

I do not hold the Hezbollah in such high regard. I find those who feel that their way is better over the dead bodies of children, have no place on this earth. I know this is my own value system. I also know that I volunteered and joined the American Army, and am proud of the service I gave to my country.

If the Hezbollah had missles aimed at my home in Massachusetts, I would take my old fat body and join again. As is, I have nothing but respect for those who would rout the world of people who employ the tactics that they do...

I am sure that this makes me something less in some people's eyes.

My earlier and not appreciated comment was not intended to incite, but to indicate that clearly I believe that if radical groups like the Hezbollah are successful at their tasks, they would have more respect for conservative infidels like me, than progressive infidels like some others... That would not matter. They would feel like failures if they did not kill us both, and our children as well.

We do not have to agree to much to realize that there are those who see us as the same and that we are their enemy, even though they do not know us, nor want to.

I go back to the conclusion that I came to last time. No negative is absolutely negative, nor positive absoulutely positive. No warring parties will seek peace, if they do not both want it. Hezbollah believes their only path lies in the death of all jews. (and others they do not like) and they are willing to stop at nothing to accomplish that. They will kill innocent babies, and sacrifice their own to make it happen.

I know it is my own value system, but as an honest man, I will say that is my definition of evil on earth.

Do I think that those in hezbollah think of themselves as evil? I suspect that they do not. They are so busy hating jews that I do not think they are very introspective. At this moment, I do not feel compelled to care if they are introspective or not, they are driven by blind rage that needs to be quelled. I choose not to accept that their way of life has any place in my way of life, much as my way of life has no place in theirs. The difference is that I have no desire to kill them because of it, and they do have the desire to kill me because of it...

I am done dancing on eggs. I speak how I feel and you feel differently. so be it. You are the moderator. do as you feel compelled...

[Desert_Seg]

I disagree.... I'm not an Israeli. I'm a Jew. If I walked down the street in Gaza or Lebanon i would be killed even if I wasn't an american.

This whole terrorist movement is based on jihad... holy war... that's pretty idealogical and religious sounding to me.

Even before Israel was estaplished, when Jews were living in British owned Palestine or Turkey owned Palestine before it, our Arab cousins would attack us too... even without being "israelis."

Zoli,

You miss my point. Too many people want to make this a war of Muslim against Jew, when it isn't.

This is a battle of the Hezbollah against the Israeli "occupation" of what they consider their land. After all, they bombed Nazareth thre nights ago, a city that is predominantly Israeli Muslim (by predominantly I mean over 80%). Why, to scare the people

Hezbollah wants to make this a Jewish - Muslim battle. It helps them immensely as it polarizes the two sides and brings more support for them. It's all about shock and awe.

I agree, you could easily be killed walking down the streets of Haifa, just as I and my family were almost killed going to that mall in Tel Aviv. But even though the suicide bomber was Palestinian Muslim, I do not blame the Muslims, nor even the Palestinians, for our near death.

All I want is that we face reality and it's easy to see my point. I hate "what ifs" but it fits here....ask yourself

"If all entire Jewish population in Israel converted to Catholicism, would the jihad stop?

- If the answer is yes than this is an ideological war.
- If the answer is no than this is nothing more than a land grab

For me the answer is no....

Steven

[pam]

Actually, Karl, with the exception of your characterization of liberals and progressives, which has been fairly dismissive and negative in the past, and continues to insinuate positions that are not necessarily held, you might be surprised to hear that I basically have the same position on Hezbollah that you have. I hate killing, yes, but I understand why/that it happens. Why on earth would I defend the Hezbollah? I don't know a single one of my liberal friends who do, either.

Pam

[Buckaroo Banzai]

You didn't know that "liberals" want the terrorists to win and our
soldiers to die?

That's what I keep hearing on FOX. Must be true.

Oy vey.

[GyroGo]

"If all entire Jewish population in Israel converted to Catholicism, would the jihad stop?

- If the answer is yes than this is an ideological war.
- If the answer is no than this is nothing more than a land grab

For me the answer is no....

Hezbollah would not accept Christian infidels controlling Israel, either. But if all the Jews and Christians in Israel suddenly became Muslims, all the non-Palestinian members of Hezbollah would go back home to their Muslim countries and rejoyce.

[GyroGo]

Why on earth would I defend the Hezbollah?

Pam, I don't think you defend Hezbollah, but you are soft on those who give at least tacit support to Hezbollah. I think it is your kind and forgiving nature to allow rationalization for their behavior. Maslow, human psychology, sociology, and understanding people's motivations all take a back seat to the the necessity to eliminate a very dangerous condition.

[Desert_Seg]

Hezbollah would not accept Christian infidels controlling Israel, either. But if all the Jews and Christians in Israel suddenly became Muslims, all the non-Palestinian members of Hezbollah would go back home to their Muslim countries and rejoyce.

No, there would be even further bloodshed...Shiite v Sunni...and so and and so forth.

However, you have pointed out one face that defines this "jihad". Once all the infidels are dead then the "jihad" can end.

Steven

[pam]

Oh, I think they'd just redefine infidels and keep fighting. :( Some people just love to fight.

Gary, my way of looking at it is that if you want someone to change their behavior, you need to give them something that will make it worth their while to change. People rarely do things because it's "right" or "wrong" but usually because it provides them with something that they preceive will benefit their lives (or if they're starving, something that will allow them to keep living).

Being "hard" on the people does not get what you want, unless you wear them into the ground, which is NOT what Israel wants to do, as I understand. Understanding and providing what is missing (which you'd call "soft") is usually more useful. It's not going to be a possibility here, I think. (I'm thinking aloud, here.) The Israeli's are doing their best to "play fair" with the population, however, in many neighborhoods Hezbollah has had a 6 year head start providing things necessary to life. I'm really here more of a realist. Just watching what is happening. I seriously doubt that they will "eliminate a dangerous condition," given all the variables I see playing out. I'd love to have it happen, but I'm not optimistic.

Pam

No, there would be even further bloodshed...Shiite v Sunni...and so and and so forth.

However, you have pointed out one face that defines this "jihad". Once all the infidels are dead then the "jihad" can end.

Steven

[KSagal]

Oh, I think they'd just redefine infidels and keep fighting. :( Some people just love to fight.

Gary, my way of looking at it is that if you want someone to change their behavior, you need to give them something that will make it worth their while to change. People rarely do things because it's "right" or "wrong" but usually because it provides them with something that they preceive will benefit their lives (or if they're starving, something that will allow them to keep living).

Being "hard" on the people does not get what you want, unless you wear them into the ground, which is NOT what Israel wants to do, as I understand. Understanding and providing what is missing (which you'd call "soft") is usually more useful. It's not going to be a possibility here, I think. (I'm thinking aloud, here.) The Israeli's are doing their best to "play fair" with the population, however, in many neighborhoods Hezbollah has had a 6 year head start providing things necessary to life. I'm really here more of a realist. Just watching what is happening. I seriously doubt that they will "eliminate a dangerous condition," given all the variables I see playing out. I'd love to have it happen, but I'm not optimistic.

Pam


I actually know people who do what they believe is the right thing, even when it costs them. Here I believe I understand human nature better than you have presented.

I know people who place a high regard on being self sufficient, even when it means they eat beans when meat and cheese can be gotten from charity. I know people who pay onerous taxes, even though they know that others cheat. I know people who stop and help stranded motorists, and contribute to their communities and churches. None of this is returned to them in the form or a bigger meal or a warmer house.

While I will agree that desparate people will do desparate things, not all people will be desparate all the time even when destitute.

I have seen people give their last morsel of food to another, their last drink to their comrad, their life so that others may live.

THe world is full of people who do what they think is right, even when the popular opinion is against them. These are the leaders among us, not the capitulators.

The problem, as I see it, is not a lack of people willing to sacrifice for what they see as right, but in that what one person sees as right is not what another feels is right. I believe that any one man's right, that includes the death of another, is not true, regardless of how high that first man thinks it is.

I believe that there is an order to the universe, and to the earth. You may call this religion, I am comfortable with that. The order is perfect. The sun always comes up, the gravity always works. Death and distruction, for the sake of one man's dominion over another, is not in that order for me. Make no mistake, this is a holy war, and it is about a few who want power over many. They cannot win power by earning it, so they are willing to force it.

I believe it was Tony Blair who said the measure of a modern country is that of how many want to get in, vs how many want to get out. Here is where your hirearchy of needs fits in, with voluntary actions, not actions taken under the threat of death...

[Sal]

THe world is full of people who do what they think is right, even when the popular opinion is against them. These are the leaders among us, not the capitulators.


http://www.commencement.harvard.edu/2004/annan.html

I am of the opinion that strong leaders are those who wield their power with their people in mind, and who set model examples for the future.

-Sal

[ZoliHonig]

Zoli,

You miss my point. Too many people want to make this a war of Muslim against Jew, when it isn't.

This is a battle of the Hezbollah against the Israeli "occupation" of what they consider their land. After all, they bombed Nazareth thre nights ago, a city that is predominantly Israeli Muslim (by predominantly I mean over 80%). Why, to scare the people

Hezbollah wants to make this a Jewish - Muslim battle. It helps them immensely as it polarizes the two sides and brings more support for them. It's all about shock and awe.

I agree, you could easily be killed walking down the streets of Haifa, just as I and my family were almost killed going to that mall in Tel Aviv. But even though the suicide bomber was Palestinian Muslim, I do not blame the Muslims, nor even the Palestinians, for our near death.

All I want is that we face reality and it's easy to see my point. I hate "what ifs" but it fits here....ask yourself

"If all entire Jewish population in Israel converted to Catholicism, would the jihad stop?

- If the answer is yes than this is an ideological war.
- If the answer is no than this is nothing more than a land grab

For me the answer is no....

Steven


I would have agreed with you, until I read this:

http://www.ksbitv.com/home/3396926.html

[GyroGo]

Gary, my way of looking at it is that if you want someone to change their behavior, you need to give them something that will make it worth their while to change. People rarely do things because it's "right" or "wrong" but usually because it provides them with something that they preceive will benefit their lives (or if they're starving, something that will allow them to keep living).

Being "hard" on the people does not get what you want, unless you wear them into the ground, which is NOT what Israel wants to do, as I understand. Understanding and providing what is missing (which you'd call "soft") is usually more useful. It's not going to be a possibility here, I think. (I'm thinking aloud, here.) The Israeli's are doing their best to "play fair" with the population, however, in many neighborhoods Hezbollah has had a 6 year head start providing things necessary to life. I'm really here more of a realist. Just watching what is happening. I seriously doubt that they will "eliminate a dangerous condition," given all the variables I see playing out. I'd love to have it happen, but I'm not optimistic.

A street gang elists a 14 year old kid to push dope on the corner. He is poor and his older brother and all his friends are in the gang. He doesn't have much chance to succeed in school or get a great job. His is a sad story. The police know if they arrest him, it will not improve his chances to turn his life around, it will not stop the gang from selling drugs.

Clearly, you know what the police have to do. It's really not all that different.

[pam]

Ah, theh war on drugs. Another failed effort. We won't get into my thoughts about drugs and the criminalizing of soft drugs pushing us into worse situation re: crime and criminals It makes a nice political statement, but works abysmally on the street. About as useful as "just say no".


Pam

[GyroGo]

Ah, theh war on drugs. Another failed effort. We won't get into my thoughts about drugs and the criminalizing of soft drugs pushing us into worse situation re: crime and criminals It makes a nice political statement, but works abysmally on the street. About as useful as "just say no".

Oh, geez, Pam, I went to bed last night so proud of myself of my great analogy.

The war on drugs is a topic for another thread, however:

I have been through tough city neighborhoods in Chicago, Philly, and NYC. I have seen the effects of people on crack. I have also seen reductions in both use and related problems that can be at least partially attributed to policemen doing great jobs. I would ALSO argue that "soft" drugs like pot HAVE rightfully been effectively decriminalized to a significant degree over the decades.

Let's just say, for argument's sake, that in the original gang/drug analogy I presented in my post above that we change it to a VIOLENT street gang, and a 14 year old kid pushing CRACK. They hook other kids on crack, addicts commit violent crimes for money, the gang kills other gang members in turf battles, innocent neighboors trying to raise their children are brutally intimidated from getting involved, the problems go on and on.

The 14 year old kid is a victim too, but he is part of a problem system that creates bigger victims.

What say you now?

[pam]

I'll not going to argue the point, Gary :) - time will actually be the best judge of what the correct action is/was.

Pam

[ZoliHonig]

I just watched this video.... All I can say is wow. extremely well made and really opens up you eyes in this situation and the entire global jihad:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q=obsession+honestreporting

it's long, I know, but worth every second to watch it...

I may even make a new thread for it...

[KSagal]

I just watched this video.... All I can say is wow. extremely well made and really opens up you eyes in this situation and the entire global jihad:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q=obsession+honestreporting

it's long, I know, but worth every second to watch it...

I may even make a new thread for it...

Thank you Zoli for posting that link. I fear that we are on the precipice and it will not take much to fall into the void!

I truely fear for the world that my children will have to grow up in...

[GyroGo]

I watched this movie wanting to deny that it could be true, yet I know of course it is, we see the pieces all the time, just not presented so well as a documentary.

While it is a reality none of us want to face, none of us want to incite fear, to deal with the reality it is a film that should be on the networks with the news shows.

I'd like to see a similar piece on how EDUCATION can be used to counter this pervasive mentality, because security and self-defense is only a component of the response.

[ZoliHonig]

Thank you Zoli for posting that link. I fear that we are on the precipice and it will not take much to fall into the void!

I truely fear for the world that my children will have to grow up in...

Your welcome Karl... I'm making a new thread so it doesn't just get lost in on small post...

[Desert_Seg]

Zoli, good post. Had seen the majority of it before but watched it again. Now, please don't take my response below as an attack of any sort. This is only meant to point out BOTH sides from somebody who has lived it for 20 years (by lived it I mean studied, taught, and lived in the region).

I would also like to point out that I am not a Zionist nor am I an Islamist. I believe my self to be an Arabist....one who has studied the region's history, culture, and religions, from the view point of the Middle East Arab and focused on the Levant and GCC (that is from Egypt to Oman and most things in between, including Israel).

Now, my comments....

Much of what is presented is true, at least from my point of view. Yet any movie that spends 1 hour and 17 minutes banging home a point about Radical Islam is trying to polarize the viewer.

That being said I don't disagree with the premise of the movie and it dovetails nicely with some very same topics I taught, wrote about, or have discussed in the past three (3) years.

There IS a huge problem out there that is being ignored. It is being ignored by the western world because it happens in mostly poor countries where a charismatic leader can often easily influence the disenfranchised (sound like anybody from the late 30's?). It is being ignored by the western world because it happens "over there". Yet we need to be aware that it is happening...not only "over there" but also within our own borders.

Even worse it had been ignored (much less so now) by the regional world (that is, the Middle East) until recently. Ignored because it focused the attention of the disenfranchised upon the western world. However, the same problems the western world is facing (the bombings, etc) have struck home and the regional governments have realized that there is a GLOBAL problem that also affects them, a problem that was virtually home grown (after all Wahabism is a root of many of the Jihadists) and has now come back home to haunt them.

In past discourse (not here, but elsewhere) I have likened the Islamist Movment to the Crusades of 600 years ago, a time when Christians tried to take over the earth and convert everybody to the one true church. If we fail to study history, we are doomed to repeat it, this time with 200 million Islamic extremists (yes, that is a conservative number of about how many extreme Muslims (aka Jihadists) are out there) trying to succeed where others failed.

HOWEVER....all that being said....

I can also say, in the same last three (3) years, I have seen very similar productions from Islamic sources against Zionism and have also listened to some true radical Zionists condemn every Muslim in the world, not just the Jihadists. So, although there is a lot of shots of Muslims being worked up into a frenzy, many Muslims yelling anti-US and anti-Israel slogans, it isn't the only side of the story. There have been terrorist Zionist organizations, even in the US, even on the US watch list.

Of course, I'm not equating the size of one group to the size of the other, just pointing out that there are two sides to every coin. BTW, from my point of view the mental pattern of true zeaolot Zionists is extremely similar to Jihadists...it is a thought pattern of fanaticism and extremism, and the like. Neither is right, neither is the path to follow.

So, to wrap it up. There is a huge problem out there....a HUGE problem. It is much larger than though and it does live and breath within the borders of EVERY country. That being said, the MAJORITY of Muslims are peace loving, Islam is a peaceful religion, (after all Islam comes from the root word Salam, which means peace). So, while this might polarize you into trying to understand the situation even more, please don't let it polarize you into believing the dramatic representations in their entirety.

Yes, Radical Islam is a problem, yes Radical Islam needs to be controlled BUT, the same can be said of Radical Zionism. I'd also like to point out that the anti-Semitism that we see in the Radical Islam movement is nothing unique, heck, we see it in the US militia and white supremacists, we see it in the European skinhead movement, we see it in many places...and those are threats we do NOT want to ignore either.

I also don't think this is going to get better any time soon, not at all. But the Muslims who live in peace, side by side with Jews, Copt Christians, Catholics, Hindus, Taoists, you name it, are the majority but, if you believe much of popular press they are in the minority.

So, while there is a problem DISCOURSE is the way to solve it, although that is much easier said than done.

Again, good presentation but it is meant to polarize and you probably need to be worried when its tagline is "zionist propaganda" so please do more research than just this piece.

Finally, I'd like to add something...Michael Moore is an idiot. What brain cell did he use to say there isn't a terrorist threat? I can't say it enough, Micheal Moore is an idiot!

Steven