PDA

View Full Version : Civil Disobedience




Tarkus
06-21-2006, 11:27 PM
After some careful thought I have decided that "Black Friday" will be my day to be arrested for Segway use at a Simon Mall.



My friends at the local TV outlets have promised to let me know where they will be set up for their annual broadcast of the shopping frenzy, and that's where I'll hold up a few grand in cash and then let the Simon folks have me arrested live and in color !


Hey Sailor, want to join me in jail ? I'll drive to the mall ! And throw bail !



I can see it now Santa, happy kiddies and a para being dragged off for wanting to drop $$$ in a place that feels they are above the law.



Can't wait for November.



Alan




Tarkus
06-22-2006, 07:27 PM
Anyone like to join in ? Pick a town and Mall and I'll see if I can find out the TV info.

I'll even throw the bail !

Suzined
11-14-2006, 02:41 AM
Rather than enter a Mall through the main entrance, have you tried going into the mall through a big store entrance (Nordstrom, Sears, Macy's, etc)? It might be worth contacting Nordstrom Public Relations regarding the use of handicapped equipment before attempting to break new ground. That way, a response to an officious security guard (with all of three days training) might be, "Well, Nordstrom Vice President Elmira Pathusnik said it was okay by her."

(No, that isn't a real name.)

Asking such a question might be along the lines of: "I've heard some mall have attempted to ban mobility equipment for the disabled, such as walkers, electric wheelchairs, and other devises used by the handicapped to permit them the freedom to shop in stores such as yours. Do your stores discriminate against Americans with Disabilities in such a manner?"

The problem sometimes gets locked in at the lowest level because "supervisors" want to back up their people. Once you get a security guard and a supervisor committed to excluding a Segway, it becomes very difficult to change a "long standing procedure" they just made up. Might be worth asking to see any "long standing" procedure in writing.

I had a long discussion with our police chief and the Mayor of Long Beach, Washington. They were interested in Segways and saw no reason to exclude Segs from sidewalks, boardwalks, or other public facilities.

From the corner of Columbia and Pacific,
Ed Leonard
Ilwaco, Washington

Timezkware Tim
11-14-2006, 03:17 AM
My wife told me once that there's an old German saying that goes something like, "When two people are having an arguement, the first one that shouts, loses". You may think that you're making a statement to help a cause, but if the common perception is that you are a troublemaker, then you are a troublemaker. Then all Seggers are troublemakers. Disabled or not, you represent all of us everytime you're on your rig in public.

When somone commits civil disobedience over young people dying in a war, that's one thing. You're planning to inconvenience several security people and Police, and disrupt the working and shopping day for others getting arrested over a Segway. You and other disabled people may benefit from Segways, but last time I checked they're not wheelchairs.

The mall is a private business. If you buy a ticket to the pokey, you will only hurt the cause to have Segways accepted in society, IMO. They have the right to say no. It's their private place of business.

As I said, perception is reality, and once you do this, it can't be undone. Think about it. There are more efficient ways to further a cause.

If Simon Co. is breaking the law and discriminating somehow, maybe I'm totally misinformed as far as the law goes where you are. I still think getting yourself arrested should be reserved for saving the lives of people or even animals. A Segway in a store? You won't get much sympathy. People will say, "Get a wheelchair if you're disabled".

JMHO. Hope you make the right decision. Good luck.

Tim

sombody
11-14-2006, 04:48 AM
I wonder if Rosa Parks was familiar with that German saying ?

rick

Timezkware Tim
11-14-2006, 05:47 AM
I wonder if Rosa Parks was familiar with that German saying ?

rick

Excuse me, Rick, but Rosa Parks was arrested demonstrating against racial discrimiantion against African-Americans on where they can sit on a public bus. This was only 90 years after her race were slaves in this country. Alan wants to get arrested because they won't let him ride his Segway, a non-disabled pedestrian assistance device, inside a private business. Nothing personal, but seriously, your analogy is ridiculous.

Tim

Desert_Seg
11-14-2006, 07:30 AM
Excuse me, Rick, but Rosa Parks was arrested demonstrating against racial discrimiantion against African-Americans on where they can sit on a public bus. This was only 90 years after her race were slaves in this country. Alan wants to get arrested because they won't let him ride his Segway, a non-disabled pedestrian assistance device, inside a private business. Nothing personal, but seriously, your analogy is ridiculous.

Tim

Tim,

Alan does qualify under the Americans with Disabilities Act and, therefore, can use ANY form of assistance to "get around". Be it a Segway, a roller skate, or a skate board, he cannot be discriminated against.

There is no such thing as an "approved" list of devices that are for the disabled....and a Segway is a great assistive device (the AD in EPAMD!).

Furthermore, Simon Malls may be privately owned but they are for public access and, therefore, MUST comply with ADA regulations. Using your comparison, the Sears Tower, Madison Square Garden, or even Dodger Stadium (all private) don't have to meet ADA regulations.

The analogy is a good one....

Steven

sombody
11-14-2006, 09:04 AM
As part of the Segway community I would not generally agree nor encourage this method of protest-

BUT I ultimately would have to support Alan in whatever decision he chooses to make-

rick

Sven
11-14-2006, 10:16 AM
As one who is disabled and part of the Segway community I say "Go Alan!" Discrimination does not last long in the glare of lights and cameras.

Sven

cmonkey
11-14-2006, 11:06 AM
I was curious about segs and stores.... so When I first got my Seg, I called up the customer service number on Nordstrom's web page and asked "Are Segways permitted in their stores?". The gal that answered had no clue and asked a supervisor. They answered 'Yes' becasue is was an EMAPD.
This surprised me because I made no other statements about the segway or how I use it.

Going in through a Nordstroms might be one access route.

Gihgehls
11-14-2006, 12:04 PM
Alan, I fully support this line of action. The law is the law. Or.. it is what it is :) :)

Good luck, mate.

Tarkus
11-14-2006, 12:40 PM
My wife told me once that there's an old German saying that goes something like, "When two people are having an arguement, the first one that shouts, loses". You may think that you're making a statement to help a cause, but if the common perception is that you are a troublemaker, then you are a troublemaker. Then all Seggers are troublemakers. Disabled or not, you represent all of us everytime you're on your rig in public.

When somone commits civil disobedience over young people dying in a war, that's one thing. You're planning to inconvenience several security people and Police, and disrupt the working and shopping day for others getting arrested over a Segway.You and other disabled people may benefit from Segways, but last time I checked they're not wheelchairs.

The mall is a private business. If you buy a ticket to the pokey, you will only hurt the cause to have Segways accepted in society, IMO. They have the right to say no. It's their private place of business.


As I said, perception is reality, and once you do this, it can't be undone. Think about it. There are more efficient ways to further a cause.

If Simon Co. is breaking the law and discriminating somehow, maybe I'm totally misinformed as far as the law goes where you are. I still think getting yourself arrested should be reserved for saving the lives of people or even animals. A Segway in a store? You won't get much sympathy. People will say, "Get a wheelchair if you're disabled".

JMHO. Hope you make the right decision. Good luck.

Tim

Tim,

First the obligatory disclaimer. "The Segway is no an FDA approved device"
But it does not have to be.

In all due respect you have little understanding of Title III of the ADA.

Every thing in bold is incorrect.

Your "fear" that somehow a disabled person legally using the HT as a mobility will create a problem for all Seggers is just nonsense.

I don't think you "checked" what is or is not the law, I think you may have heard something that was inaccurate.

Yes we benefit from the Seg, but you better check again as what is a "wheelchair". and "mobility devise under title III.

The Mall is like a Theme park, places of public accommodation under Title III ADA.

A Segway in a store ?.....I read about able bodied Seggers on this forum want to ride in stores, that's absurd.


Regards,
Alan

PS-I have a surgery tomorrow that may not allow my impending arrest.

As far as what the law is, I've got it in my pocket and so does Simon Malls they just in some cases chose to ignore it.

In fairness to the local Simon properties have not been a problem since this thread started. I have had access here in Northeast Florida.

But other Simon Malls still hold fast .

I will continue to do what I do. If not at Simon then who ever is next.
I don't run scared.


THE LAW:


http://www.fta.dot.gov/civilrights/ada/civil_rights_3894.html

This is a link to the FTA “common wheelchair” definition. This is the definition most places use as their guidelines.


http://www.draft.cc/draft3/Portals/0/KerrArticles/USDOT%20Segway%20Guidance.pdf

This is a link to the FTA guidance for Segway use.


This is a personal choice. I fly a handicapped placard, it's not necessary but I find I get less questions.


Other legalities to be aware of:


Assistive Technology Act of 1998

In this act congress defined Assistive Technology as “any device item piece of equipment, or products system, whether acquired commercially, modified, or customized, that is used to increase, maintain, or improve functional capabilities of individual with disabilities.”


Defining Assistive Devices

One of the dangers of definitions that they may be imprecise with ever-growing changes in technology, in 1991 Attorney General Richard Thornburgh in publishing the first regulations in implementing the ADA consistently said that "there would no exhaustive list of devices and services protected under the ADA because any attempt to do so would omit the new devices that would become available with emerging technology".

Sal
11-14-2006, 12:46 PM
I do applaud Alan for standing up for what he believes in. If I were in his position, I don't know if I would have the cajones or tenacity to do the same thing (it all depends on how much the situation offends me). We all know that Tarkus doesn't give "the Mouse" any money, again, it all depends on how much the issue affects the person.

I don't think its fair to compare this situation to Rosa Parks (if only because Alan would be allowed on Simon property if he were using a different device [which is his choice], and Parks was banned for being who she was).

Even though I agree that private property owners have the right to set whatever rules they would deem reasonable / legal. I can't see the banning of Segways (used by those who need them for mobility) being fair or reasonable.

I see three wheeled scooters, power wheelchairs, etc, large, awkward devices being used in the malls here.

The key here is the question about what rule is "reasonable" when applied to the common public / and those with mobility issues.

-Sal

P.S. Besides, this is such a unique fight that I bet Alan is successful in his efforts. Come up with any logical argument for banning Segways, and after all the valid retorts have destroyed their position, all that's left is Simon's corporate preference. (If Safety is an issue, comment that their Security uses them, and they use them poorly). Compare a Segway owner with YEARS of experience under his/her belt, with poorly and inadequately trained mall security. They're more of a risk than we users could ever be.

Timezkware Tim
11-14-2006, 01:02 PM
Tim,

Alan does qualify under the Americans with Disabilities Act and, therefore, can use ANY form of assistance to "get around". Be it a Segway, a roller skate, or a skate board, he cannot be discriminated against.

There is no such thing as an "approved" list of devices that are for the disabled....and a Segway is a great assistive device (the AD in EPAMD!).

Furthermore, Simon Malls may be privately owned but they are for public access and, therefore, MUST comply with ADA regulations. Using your comparison, the Sears Tower, Madison Square Garden, or even Dodger Stadium (all private) don't have to meet ADA regulations.

The analogy is a good one....

Steven

I still don't think the analogy is appropriate since racial discrimination against a group of people once sold as slaves is a bit different than a business who doesn't like a device. It's the machine they don't like. If it were a group of people, as in Rosa Park's case, they would also have a problem with people in wheelchairs.

However, I stand corrected as far as ADA regulations go. If disabled people can use whatever device they want to get around, then the mall is obligated to comply. I still think think Alan should make every attempt to discuss this issue with Simon's management in writing before getting himself arrested on TV. Simon is a rather big company. It's doubtful that their legal department would ultimately allow the company to knowingly break the law if they really knew what Alan's intentions were. Alan, was your complaint documented in writing? Does Simon know that a Segway is not a motorized vehicle (in writing)? I feel for Alan, I really do. I just think getting arrested should be the last step.

For the record, I am almost completely deaf after a bad accident 6 years ago. I have to wear two hearing aids since I'm 42 and am legally partially disabled as a result. Every day I get the "What?" joke from somebody when I tell them that I am deaf and can't hear them. I am not comparing my situation to anyone, I'm just saying that discrimination is a really bad thing, and I take it very seriously.

Tim

Tarkus
11-14-2006, 01:14 PM
Tim,

Everything is in writing.

I'm not a "Newbie" at this I know what we are up against.
They, like others have will relent.

As far as Simons "legal dept" they know they are in violation. Just as Disney does.

Before I would ever suggest a thing like this I try all reasonable avenues. conversation, education & persuasion.

In this case in most Simon properties the problem still exist so I will keep up the fight.

By the way, you know those little sidewalk cutouts Seggers love so much, they came from people like me and others that fought the ADA battle prior to 1990.

Regards,
Alan

driley
11-14-2006, 01:44 PM
My wife told me once that there's an old German saying that goes something like, "When two people are having an arguement, the first one that shouts, loses". You may think that you're making a statement to help a cause, but if the common perception is that you are a troublemaker, then you are a troublemaker. Then all Seggers are troublemakers. Disabled or not, you represent all of us everytime you're on your rig in public.

When somone commits civil disobedience over young people dying in a war, that's one thing. You're planning to inconvenience several security people and Police, and disrupt the working and shopping day for others getting arrested over a Segway. You and other disabled people may benefit from Segways, but last time I checked they're not wheelchairs.

The mall is a private business. If you buy a ticket to the pokey, you will only hurt the cause to have Segways accepted in society, IMO. They have the right to say no. It's their private place of business.

As I said, perception is reality, and once you do this, it can't be undone. Think about it. There are more efficient ways to further a cause.

If Simon Co. is breaking the law and discriminating somehow, maybe I'm totally misinformed as far as the law goes where you are. I still think getting yourself arrested should be reserved for saving the lives of people or even animals. A Segway in a store? You won't get much sympathy. People will say, "Get a wheelchair if you're disabled".

JMHO. Hope you make the right decision. Good luck.

Tim

Tim,

I don't know what to say. I am offended by your lack of sensitivity. For many people, a Segway is much more than a new form of transportation. It is essentially their legs. A modern miracle of science. An invention that allows them the freedom to do things and go places that the able bodied take for granted.

Maybe when you first saw a Segway, you thought, neat, I want one. Many of us saw it and knew and hoped it could be life changing. We saw a device that would allow us to go places that were otherwise very difficult to go. Such as malls or amusement parks. Or grant us the ability to "stroll" our parks and neighborhoods or "walk" with friends and families.

Your attitude is discriminatory and this type of attitude has the potential to step all over my civil rights. Thankfully, laws were established to protect the disabled from this type of thinking.

Hopefully you will never have to walk a mile in the shoes of those who depend on a Segway for true mobility assistance. If you do, your perspective will change, in a hurry. Hopefully you can think about that and be more empathetic to the situation of others.

Devin

Sal
11-14-2006, 03:06 PM
Lets everyone go easy on Tim. Frankly, I don't think Tim was being discriminatory at all. I think he was trying to play devil's advocate / expressing his opinion based on what he knew at the time. No one can / or should blame him for that.

-Sal

P.S. Disability is a sensitive subject, maybe as sensitive as race relations. But it's even more subtle, as many folks with disabilities aren't "recognized as such," and they shouldn't be, and shouldn't have to be made to announce it. I don't know and will never truly know what it is like to be disabled, just like others can't know what it's like to be a minority.

gbrandwood
11-14-2006, 03:15 PM
Alan, not that you in any way need my support in this matter, but I would just like to wish you the best in your endevours. Sometimes writing letters and talking to people on the shop floor will only get you so far. Go for it! The publicity it generates would almost certainly cause the Mall owners to take note - and hopefully appropriate action.

Sven
11-14-2006, 04:28 PM
[QUOTE=Sal;129790]I do applaud Alan for standing up for what he believes in. If I were in his position, I don't know if I would have the cajones or tenacity to do the same thing (it all depends on how much the situation offends me). We all know that Tarkus doesn't give "the Mouse" any money, again, it all depends on how much the issue affects the person.


Only acting on matters such as this if it affects us personally is akin to burying one's head in the sand. It breeds thinking such as "as long as there is food on my plate, world hunger is not a problem for me." Discrimination against the disabled is wrong and I would hope everyone, disabled and abled alike, would stand up against such practices. Alan is standing up for what is right here and no amount of "devil advocacy" can detract from that reality.

Sven

Tarkus
11-14-2006, 05:21 PM
Lets everyone go easy on Tim. Frankly, I don't think Tim was being discriminatory at all. I think he was trying to play devil's advocate / expressing his opinion based on what he knew at the time. No one can / or should blame him for that.

-Sal

P.S. Disability is a sensitive subject, maybe as sensitive as race relations. But it's even more subtle, as many folks with disabilities aren't "recognized as such," and they shouldn't be, and shouldn't have to be made to announce it. I don't know and will never truly know what it is like to be disabled, just like others can't know what it's like to be a minority.


Sal,

No question about it, Tim was in no way trying to be discriminatory here. Just a little misinformed.

I've read enough of his stuff to know he's not that type of guy.

Maybe some would find those types of comments insensitive, but thats a personal matter. My hide is like that of my Avatar! Others maybe not.

But the misinformation is a real problem for Seggers of all body types !

If we wanted to get right down to original point of the HT very few are being used for that purpose, human transportation.

I'm talking commuting, shopping etc. the "original" concept. But as with many things the use of the product went in many directions.

One of those being used as a mobility aid.

I do always find it interesting that this "issue" brings out the "what does INC say about it" argument. That answer is right on their site if you look real close.

We don't ask that about towing things, riding two up, making it go faster, no hands, polo.......you know what INC's answer is to that also. Not to mention the helmet.

Why is that?

Regards,
Alan

PS-the original concept would have been to hit as many stores in as many locations as possible on the same day. I backed off that for a while when it appeared that I would get some sort response that showed any interest in the matter.

driley
11-14-2006, 05:56 PM
I'm not thin skinned. It is an important subject though and if someone is going to voice there opinion, I am going to voice mine. It is an important issue.

I do not doubt that Tim is a good guy and does not intend to be discriminatory, though the views he expressed were in my opinion.

Devin

Tarkus
11-14-2006, 06:39 PM
I'm not thin skinned. It is an important subject though and if someone is going to voice there opinion, I am going to voice mine. It is an important issue.

I do not doubt that Tim is a good guy and does not intend to be discriminatory, though the views he expressed were in my opinion.

Devin

Devin,

I apologize if I insinuated you as thin skinned, I meant it as an all encompassing statement. My bad.

Regards,
Alan

driley
11-14-2006, 07:09 PM
Devin,

I apologize if I insinuated you as thin skinned, I meant it as an all encompassing statement. My bad.

Regards,
Alan

No problem. Should we all move on to religion and politics now? :)

Devin

Murray Fisher
11-14-2006, 07:13 PM
I actually entered the Mall through Nordstrom's after wandering around there a while I went out the exit into the main part of the Mall. I went to the Food area and had something to eat......then took off and cruised a long ways down the main Mall and chatted with a lot of the vendors and customers....Then I went back to Nordstroms and a Security man in a pretty white uniform followed me inside Nordstroms and informed me I was not allowed in the main mall with my Segway.....but he said I could stay in Nordstroms as long as I wanted. I guess I was NOT dangerous with my High Speeds in Nordstroms, but it was a different story in the rest of the Mall. As I left the Mall, the Vendors and others I had talked to earlier asked how I made out and they were astonished that an 85 year old man gliding along silently alongside his wife at around 1 MPH was being ejected for being dangerous!!!

Tarkus
11-14-2006, 07:32 PM
No problem. Should we all move on to religion and politics now? :)

Devin

Now thats funny stuff !!!!!

Timezkware Tim
11-14-2006, 08:38 PM
Hi, me again,

Alan and all, I certainly wasn't trying to be insensetive. If you really read my posts, you'd realize that I support Alan, Segway, and the disabled community of which I am both a part of. I only disagreed with Alan's approach, based on what the perception of the general public is. The discussions here at Segway Chat are a healthy way to air out these things, as this is a place for all of us to learn something.

Look at it this way: if my opinion was that Alan was being rash, I'm a member of the general public and that's my perception. Get it?

Alan, if you've tried everything in terms of communicating with Simon in writing, then I'm with you. I've read most of your posts. You've never mentioned writing Simon as far as I can remember, so it seemed that you were being rash. If I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting it. I'm only human. After all, we're not under oath here, this is only a message board. I just don't want to see someone on a Segway getting handcuffed on TV unless they really have to.

We're all on the same side here. Alan, good luck fighting the Segway critics. Let's just make sure we don't tarnish our reputation in the process. As I said, for many people, perception is reality.

Tim

Desert_Seg
11-14-2006, 10:41 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and though we may not agree we have to respect their right to that opinion. We all have reasons to support, or not, disabled rights but in the end those that have "skin in the game" are the most affected and it is their rights that are being infringed on (or not, depending on your view).

Simon Properties, and the management of any other public access venue, has to provide access, regardless (within reason, no jet-fueled powered wheelchairs, please), and they aren't.

They should and they aren't. People should be aware of this and they should be forced to change.

Now, on the lighter side, we do have to be nicer to Tim. After all, if you look at his sig you realize that he has much bigger problems to deal with. Much much bigger. A Mets fan....sigh....

Steven

Tarkus
11-14-2006, 10:41 PM
Tim,

It's all good.

You have to remember that just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not getting done. Re: letters etc. I write more letters, make more phone calls then you could ever imagine. I post little here in comparison to other sites.

I troll websites looking for others in the same situation, and I find them every time.

Now, back to the being arrested part.

Do you really think that the local Law enforcement would slam the paraplegic to the car and throw the cuffs on me like the good old days ?

Or would the local Simon talking head allow it?
Of course not. What would happen is that the Police would cite me for the infraction, if indeed they could find one on the books, and I would take a ride downtown, media in tow.

That would show the absurdity of it all, again. I would not be close to being the first to do this.

It has been done by many a person before me. On Segways.

It's what this country is all about.

The First Amendment.

We do not need to agree, just agree to disagree.

All the best,
Alan

polo_pro
11-14-2006, 11:07 PM
Alan, if you've tried everything in terms of communicating with Simon in writing, then I'm with you. I've read most of your posts. You've never mentioned writing Simon as far as I can remember, so it seemed that you were being rash. If I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting it. I'm only human. After all, we're not under oath here, this is only a message board. I just don't want to see someone on a Segway getting handcuffed on TV unless they really have to.

I have no doubt that Alan has tried every other means possible to resolve this matter (including numerous letters to all sorts of people within the Simon organization). Tim does make a good point that if any type of civil dis-obediance should be accompanied with both a presentation (say copies of everything blown up and put on large sheets of cardboard) and press package detailing all these communications.

The goal would be to allow the various reporters and general public to see what great lengths Alan and others have already gone through before it got to the point of civil disobedience. Also it'd hopefully be fairly apparent how Simon is violating the law (and even seeming hypocritical). But I'm sure all this has already been discussed at length by the people who'd be involved.

ps - I should mention that I'm not disabled. So those folks who feel I shouldn't have a voice in this topic are quite welcome to use that fact as a way to tell me to 'sit down and shut up'.

GlennO
11-14-2006, 11:33 PM
If you are going to do this, and I think that it is a pretty good idea, I'd have someone nearby that can explain it all, in case you do get carted off before you can explain it all.

Also, if you really want to get your point across, I'd make up flyers and drop off one in every store, telling them that it is too painful for you to shop there without a mobility device, and you'll be going to another mall in the future.

After all, those cops aren't gods, and if the word gets out that their security personel don't like disabled persons shopping there, the shop owners are going to beat them down! :)

Glenn

Hobbes
11-15-2006, 12:01 AM
If I may re-phrase what Alan is really doing...he is politely handing the mall management a rope so they can hang themselves.

Those who don't live with the daily effects of disabilities will find it hard to truly understand what the situation is still like out there. There is a lot of rather stupid discrimination, not to mention the designed-in kind. For an example of the latter, try a light-rail transit service where the wheelchair access door is at a different place on different trains. If you are not in the right spot, you won't get on in time. If you move to where the door was on the train you just missed, you might not make it on the next one.

Back on topic...These institutions are afraid of possible costs incurred from allowing people, even disabled to use a Segway on their premises. However, they are clearly in violation of the law, and if they were to be sued they would be guaranteed of losing and would be on the hook for a sizable sum. Maybe this has to happen. Their lawyers would instruct them to settle, and that would be more expensive than you might realise. I used to work for a retailer and if one of their security personnel ever stopped someone in public: "may I speak with you" is all they had to say, and that person had not shop-lifted, the stoppee had to only present a letter from a lawyer stating that they intended to sue and the company would immediately offer at least $10,000 to settle. The wise ones would say no, because the later settlement offers would be orders of magnitude higher.

The mall's lawyers know they are in the wrong, the mall's actions really fall into the bully category. When they realise that the financial risk incurred by discriminating against someone is real, then things will change. In some jurisdictions, such as up here, if a case such as this appeared before the courts there would be a stiff, punitive judgement.

Timezkware Tim
11-15-2006, 03:57 AM
Ok. I learned a few things in this thread about the ADA, about Alan, about Malls, and a little about what it's like to get around when you can't walk.

Thank you everybody for all the info.

Good luck, Alan, on the 24th. I hope you succeed, however you get there. If you do get arrested, that will be a huge personal sacrifice. I hope the Mall eventually loses this battle, even though I don't want to see Segs in malls unless the glider is disabled. I also don't want to see dogs in restaurants unless it is a care dog, but that's something else.

If you're actually incarserated for any length of time, I will send you a cake with a file in it. ;)

Good luck,

Tim

Tarkus
11-15-2006, 06:18 AM
Thanks Tim I like chocolate !

I'll post latter......off to surgery at 7:00am


Alan

Sal
11-15-2006, 07:12 AM
Now, on the lighter side, we do have to be nicer to Tim. After all, if you look at his sig you realize that he has much bigger problems to deal with. Much much bigger. A Mets fan....sigh....

Steven

Tim, as a fellow NY baseball fan (Yanks), I can sympathize with the demise of the Mets, the Yanks had a much more Hinden-tastic fall from grace this post-season! With Sheffield gone, they have a strong batting hole to make up. Pedro should be coming back... isn't that a good sign?

I am sure the Tigers will go back to their last place origins, and the Cards, well... sorry, you'll have to deal with them more than us for the regular season again! ;-)

-Sal

Timezkware Tim
11-15-2006, 03:05 PM
Thanks Sal.

Barry Zito will be in a Met uniform before Alan gets out of the slammer. This time we WILL go to the WS, and win.

Tim

Dragan
11-16-2006, 12:09 AM
I'll chime in here from a bunch of different angles. First, I'm a Canadian and not American. We have legislation that provides for barrier free access, but does not recognize any device specifically as an assistive device, including wheelchairs and mobility scooters. In fact, devices powered by anything other than muscle power are specifically mandated to the Provinces for regulation (in Alberta, mobility scooters are technically illegal, as an example)

Secondly, I am, as most of you know, a Segway dealer. In fact, I was the busiest Segway dealer in Canada last year. Would I LOVE to see something similar to the ADA here??? YOU BET. The truth is that we don't have it, and likely won't ever see a similar law.

Canadians as a rule tend towards looser definitions and more generalized wording. In the situation being debated here, the Canadian legal approach would be;

-private property is just that. period. If I am the owner of said private property, public access not withstanding, and I don't like the shirt you have on, I can deny you access.

-if you, having been denied access, feel that I was treating you unfairly despite it being my property, you may lodge a complaint against me with the Candian Human Rights Tribunal. If they agree that the shirt you were wearing really is too ugly to be seen in public, you're out of luck. If they determine that it really isn't that bad, they can rule in your favor.

Providing it (the ruling) doesn't contravene any existing Canadian Standards Council guidelines (not a government agency by the way; it is consumer driven) The Human Rights tribunal may order me to let you wear that ugly shirt in my mall.

Not to make light of the issue at hand, but if Alan were to try that approach in Canada, he would very likely be removed summarily and forced to argue his case in the above described forum and venue.

The mobility issue would be a deciding factor, both from a legal perspective and a practical one.

I have customers who are ablebodied who have been asked to leave several privately owned, publically accessable facilities. I have been asked to leave several of those locations in past as well.

Since my run-in earlier this year with that nasty little disease (cancer) I have gone from being able-bodied to being a card carrying, placard toting, official mobility-impaired person. Since becoming disabled, I now use a segway as an assistive device, and fly a placard as well. I have gone to every single venue that I was asked to leave formerly, ridden responsibly and have not been denied access once.

I have seen first-hand what I long suspected; people with disabilities in Canada are treated differently. Although the approach is fundamentally different the trend is towards fairness, PROVIDING you're a polite Canadian about it ;^)

That sounds flippant, and it was intended to if for no other reason that to inject a small amount of levity to a serious topic. As a society, Canada and it's citizens tend towards positive reactions to "polite" as opposed to "civil disobediance".

The point I'm trying to make here is that while I am much more inclined to take Alan's approach (i.e. I dare you, and if you do, I'm going to make you look stupid) personally, different countries have different rules and societal tolerances.

Significant past experience, both personal and through our customers leaves me siding with Tim on this point. The law is what it is, wherever you are. The fundamental truth is that without the will to enforce it, the law is ineffective and impotent.

There is currently very little if any will to enforce, so we have little if any problem in most places, most of the time despite there being nothing legally that would allow Segways to be used in public venues.

Where we DO have problems, it often tends to be the result of an act of "civil disobedience". Whether real or not, it is perception based, and can be very difficult to overcome.

As a dealer, we have frequently had to struggle with negative perceptions caused by an overly aggressive approach during some previous encounter with a Segway glider.

It's an interesting and profound difference. In the U.S., the law is clear-cut, yet one of the biggest corporate customers that Segway has (Disney) openly defies Federal law. In Canada, where no such law exists, the fear of violating your basic rights as a human being is enough to send even the biggest institutions running for the hills. Heaven forbid...that would be impolite and....well.....UnCanadian!!!!!

my opinion only. your mileage may vary

Wayne

Tarkus
11-19-2006, 03:22 PM
I am making light of this !

I always find it interesting, as I spent 2 years work in Toronto, how the Canadian Government will say "private property" is just that.......

Then provide socialized health care for it's population, amazing contradiction.

The fact is Canada has issues far bigger than property rights to worry about.
Economy, uncontrolled immigration etal.

It's biggest issue is when will the population decide just how socialized they want to become. Can't straddle the fence forever.

I don't know , if it were I, if I would be proud to say that where the problems start is with Civil Disobedience, that just shows me that the population is either been brainwashed by there government or they have just become so placid that they don't have the stomach for anything controversial.

If we want to continue this line of thought then I'll be glad to take it to "Off Topic" before the Mods do. Political rederic you know, and I just fueled the fire !

That being said I love Canada and the Canadian people, I see most of them 4 months a year down here if Florida.



Now as far as my "Civil Disobedience". If I can get out of this wheelchair again before black Friday then it will be a wonderful day. If not there is always the rest of the Holiday Season to make my point.

Thank God that down here we don't have that perception problem. My approach has been used for generations and has work very, very well.

I hope I can Seg on the 25th.

All the best,
Alan

Tarkus
11-19-2006, 09:09 PM
Wayne I agree with you on a few things.

First, as you stated, I fully expect to be asked to leave. Problem is that there is on law on the books, yes I have spoken to the city attorney and the police and as long as I don't cause a riot it will be tough to remove me form public property at the Mall.

The purpose of doing it on media day is to raise attention and point out the absurdity of it all.

I also agree that Canada needs a comprehensive plan ala ADA.
But that will only happen if the population makes it happen.
Being passive will accomplish nothing.

It's only been since 1990 her, and ADA did not happen by accident. People fought , spoke and demonstrated for it.

Remember I said "civil disobedience" not irresponsible use of the machine.

Best regards,
Alan

Tarkus
11-24-2006, 07:54 PM
Unfortunately due to surgery I'm still in a wheelchair for another couple of days.

I tried to Seg this morning but I would have been a menace to all involved so I'm hoping for Sunday.

Less bang but so it goes.

Regards,
Alan

pam
11-24-2006, 08:10 PM
Hope you get to feeling better soon!
Pam

Tarkus
11-28-2006, 12:59 PM
Hope you get to feeling better soon!
Pam

Thanks for the thoughts Pam.

Well Sunday I had it together and still a crowd and so I went to three
Simon properties.

All will remain nameless until I hear back from Simon Corporate.

Stop one. Open air style Mall. I spend about 2 hrs, drop some cash and never even see Security. Very nice.

I don't "seek out" security but I don't play "hide and seek" either.

Stop two. Traditional Mall and with in about 15 mins. security told me no Segs. I ask and receive permission to speak to their supervisor. After about a fifteen min. talk I could see that he agreed with my position but was stuck with towing the corporate line.

He basically told me to go shop, called off his dogs and would pretend I was never there. I give him credit very few have the guts to take a chance.

Stop three was the same as stop one. It was late in the day so that may have had something to do with it.

End result very little. Simon needs to either enforce their own rule or comply to the law.

See no "public image" disaster, just a few thousand people that saw a Segway being used safely among a semi-mindless Holiday shopping crowd.

And a ton of "one on one" discussion about the Segway.

Regards,
Alan

Desert_Seg
11-28-2006, 01:28 PM
Alan,

I admire both your courage and your tenacity. Keep this up, the world needs more people like you...those who stand by their convictions and try to use peaceful, and legal, means to achieve them.

Regards,

Steven

Timezkware Tim
11-28-2006, 01:48 PM
Congrats, Alan. Good work.

Tim

Tarkus
11-28-2006, 03:59 PM
Thanks guys.

I would like to say that I'm out there trying to "break new ground" when in fact I'm just trying to live my life on my terms.

Regards,
Alan