Cuba and Terrorist Nations

[GyroGo]

I have no personal agenda in favor of Castro or Cuba, in fact I once had a good friend whose family escaped during the revolution. My friend's father was an advisor to Castro.

But despite my (brief) research, I DON'T understand any reason to leave Cuba on the list of terrorist nations with Iran, North Korea, Sudan and Syria, especially now that Libya (!) is being removed from the list and relations being normalized (according to today's AP news http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12799651/).

Does anybody know the justification to keep Cuba on the list, or is it a CIA secret?

[Desert_Seg]

Gyro,

This is simple.

Cuba, along with the other countries you mention, remain on the embargoed list because they are supporters, or have been in the recent past, of terrorism as a way to resolve their disputes, have or continue to develop nuclear power for other than peaceful needs (or so it is believed), or general pains in the world's a**.

It should be noted that at the present time Segways can't be sold to or shipped to residents in embargoed countries, something that could be because Segways have components that could be used for dual purposes (so called dual use equipment) or because there are general trade embargoes in place. That being said, if one has a BIX or OFAC approval, a sale might be possible but without said approval any financial transaction with said countries could easily lead to severe (read that as very high) financial penalties and a strong likelihood of jail time.

Libya was removed from the list two years ago as they swore off nuclear power, there has been no proof in the recent years that they still support it, and (most importantly) acknowledged their responsibility for the Lockerbie incident AND paid the court imposed penalty.

These countries which are embargoed have economic and trade sanctions imposed as a way to try to "force" them to play nice. That is the primary reason that Cuba is still on the list and as much as I would like to get Castro out of power (personal reasons here!) and believe we are hurting Cubans more than helping with these sanctions, I also support the embargo.

BTW, there are more than just the afore mentioned countries on the sanctions list. Some have "lighter" sanctions, others are just tied to specific goods, but these countries have a total embargo.

Steven

[GyroGo]

Steven:

I appreciate all your posts, they manifest intelligence and knowledge. However, what I don't understand (and "research" may be a generous word for what little I've investigated this question) is what specifically Cuba has done in recent years that was state sponsored terrorism, and do they have nuclear weapon capability? Anyway, somehow, Castro with nukes doesn't scare me 1% as much as North Korea, Iran, Syria, or Sudan with nukes.

What has Castro said or done lately to offend or threaten the US? In fact, it seems more often I've read of them trying to extend the olive branch and the US rebuffing them.

Again, I have no agenda in defending Cuba or Castro, I really just am wondering what I must be missing.

[GyroGo]

OK, I did find this Wikipedia article on state sponsored terrorism at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._list_of_state_sponsors_of_international_terro rism
and it said: "Cuba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba) - Added in 1982 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982). Hosts or supports members of Basque ETA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA) and the Colombian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia) FARC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Armed_Forces_of_Colombia) and ELN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Army_%28Colombia%29) groups."

It's funny though, I used to take stuff like this at face value from our government. Ever since the WMD (or not?) fiasco I find myself doubting each fact like this at face value. (and I think Sadam did need to be toppled, but the American people deserve the truth, not intelligence lies of justification). So, I guess I need to see a 60 Minutes or an O'Reilly - Factor report before I know what to believe.

[citivolus]

I don't know exactly what the situation with Cuba is but a quick search turned up these few things.
shot down civilian planes in '96
http://www.cnn.com/US/9602/cuba_shootdown/25/index.html

general information and lots of links.
http://www.closeup.org/cuba.htm

I have also heard rumors that Cuba backed the coup in Grenada in '79 but being rumors...
Aside from all of that, the only recent things I'm aware of is the rather harsh treatment of local journalists (or anyone else for that matter) who express any opposition to Castro.

[GyroGo]

I feel a bit awkward in my brand spanking new found role of proponent of some normalization of relations with Cuba, but I'm just not getting it. Those 2 planes were conducting operations directly antagonistic to Cuban interest. I think we've forgiven Russia for shooting down our spy planes, and other similar international incidents. Not good for the Cubans, for sure, but hardly terrorist activity.

Hmmm, they supported a coup in another nation, not the US. Hmmm, not like WE have EVER done such a thing. I don't think I have enough fingers. And how exactly do we categorize the Bay of Pigs invasion? Was that not a failed coup attempt to overthrow the sovereign government of Cuba that would have not only occurred because of active US involvement?


I think we're just still a little pissed that Castro took the island commie.... but didn't he overthrow Batista, just another dictator? I guess we expect a little more respect from them after going to war with Spain in 1898 to win US control of the island.

[citivolus]

I'm sure the real major sticking point is political. Normalizing relations with Cuba, with Castro in charge, would cost one party or the other too many votes and as a result they are all waiting for Fidel to sneak up behind the bucket and give it a good kick. Not that I'm at all sure his replacement, likely Raul Castro, would not cost as many votes.

[Desert_Seg]

Yikes! Don't jump the gun on the facts.

1. Cuba was placed on the embargoed list back in the 80's. I don't remember the exact date but some of the reasons were their support of the war in Angola, their support of the FARC, their support (or supposed support as this has always been a tenuous tie) of the Sendero Luminoso, and their support of various other terrorist organizations. In fact, Cuba was a well known training ground for many leaders of anti-American, anti-democracy leaders. Quite often Havana and Moscow were interchangeable training sites.

2. Cuba's stay on the embargoed list continued, and still does, becuase of their continued allowance of drug smugglers to use their air space and landing rights prior to coming to the US. Many of the "common" air route bring planes quite close, if not through, Cuban air space, where they then drop to the ground and fly "nap of the earth" as they exit Cuba. This makes them extremely difficult to track.....very, very, very difficult.

3. As for the shoot down, Cuba used to claim territorial waters of 200 miles off their coast (many nations claim this, btw), putting their territory well over Miami. That means that any plane taking off from Miami is violating Cuban airspace and can be shot down. I remember this event quite well and also remember that every account was that they were well outside the 12 mile limit, which is (or was) the recognized territorial limit. It should be noted that Brothers to the Rescue does push the envelope BUT this was not an act of war. Civilian planes are NEVER categorized as military and fall way outside the standards of military intervention. All planes squawk IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) and either guard on civilian or military channels. SOP is to call out on all known commercial channels, get a visual, and then start deterrent action. No way in hell that a Cessna was a threat....especially against a MIG.

4. Don't jump on the Bay of Pigs. This was a civilian action that while not officially condoned by the USG was "supported" by entities of the USG (read CIA). However, times where different then, we had a direct threat to our nation and Fidel's rhetoric at the time, along with the Soviet Union's direct support (militarily and financially) of Cuba was clear. Remember, it wasn't until a few years ago that San Antonio del los Banos Airbase was closed. And it wasn't until a few years ago that Soviet AIG's quit running out of Havana.

5. Batista / Castro....two nuts from the same fold. But, truth be told, Batista was an economic dictator. Ruled the island with an iron fist but let the mightly dollar rule...not much different than many Latin American rulers. Point is, we liked Batista, and he liked our dollars. We still liked Cuba when Fidel took over intially....but then we started disliking him more and more when he went to bed with our enemy. Remember, a friend of my enemy is.....my enemy!

6. Lastly, Fidel's Cuba (as opposed to normal Cuba) is still on the embargoed list because Fidel continues to support terrorist actions to achieve the goal of a communist world. He has continually threatened the US, has offered to kill the US President, and believes that violence is the right path. Cubans are suffering at his hand, including using the military to control demonstrations. Cubans will continue to do so, unless the machismo that is flowing through the air subsides.

BTW, when Fidel keels over, hopefully sooner rather than later, his brother Raul isn't any better. There needs to be a popular uprising to get rid of both Fidel and Raul....

BTW, it is widely believed that Cuba was behind the attempted coup in Grenada. We know that there where hordes of Cuban military advisors in Grenada and military tactics used where similar to those used in Angola and other parts of the world. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....damn if it ain't a duck!

I could go on and on and on....but, FWIW, Cuba should be one of the first of the list...and would be if they ever tried to play nice, and backing Hugo Chavez ain't nice!

- Edit -

One more thing....

The Cuban Democracy Act and the Helms Burton Act, both of which passed in the 90's, pretty much have crippled the island. They both should be seen as shining examples of what a good PAC can do to make their dreams come true!.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, those two Acts, and the disappearance of BILLIONS of Soviet Union money, have virtually crippled the Cuban economy. BUT, don't blame the two Acts...blame the sole reliance of the Castro government on Soviet Union money. What the two Acts did was make sure they they couldn't find an easy replacement...which they did anyway with drug money.

- End Edit -

Steven

[sombody]

In the summer of 1969 I was on a United flight hijacked to Cuba. Spendt the night in the Havana Riviera- ordered room and service somked a cigar by the pool. Had a great time- My how things have changed

Rick

[GyroGo]

My how things have changed

You mean the hijackings, the service you get on vacations, or the stogies you smoke? :D

[sombody]

Hey- pretty- I funny havent smoked any cigars since-

The first hijackings werent all that scarry- especially for a 21 yr old
Ordered room service- I knew I wasnt paying
I wasnt even sure we were going to Cuba- till we started to land
The summer of 69 was fun - ask anybody who was there( unless you were in the war )
This is a true story

Rick

[GyroGo]

Maybe I was just ahead of the game.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14095881/

[Desert_Seg]

Maybe I was just ahead of the game.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14095881/

Aren't all gliders ahead of the game?

It will be interesting what happens in the next two years....but I wouldn't expect much.

After all Fidel and Hugo Chavez are close buddies.

Steven