Iswing versus Segway

[roro]

In the Toyoto showroom on Champs Elysees in Paris you can see the Iswing.

I saw it first time in real, and I am not very impressed.

The whole thing is very very small. When you search pictures in the www,
you see only small Japanese Girls in it...

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/3403/dsc004087pf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The Wheels look smaller than Segway Wheels.

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/8814/dsc004076ea.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

A Toyota associate asked me, if i would trade my Segway against it.

My answer was: "NO."

Rob

[mario-ramos]

Iswing video:
http://reviews.cnet.com/4660-11443_7-6459325.html?autoplay=true&tag=cnetfd.vid

[GyroGo]

The Iswing puts another meaning of "pod" into "electripod" (electric pedestrian/electric foot).


http://segwaychat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11794&page=3

[Tarkus]

Very nice video.

It's problem, too big for the sidewalk too small for the street.

The one market, and here we go again, may be mobility impaired people. A cheaper(?), Ibot type deal.

That said it look like some cool tech work.

[inventor]

i want one anyway, but its just a concept right?

[Desert_Seg]

I believe it is a concept that is slated for production.

We didn't get it here during the Dubai Auto Show (good thing!) but I have received a few questions about it.

I'd like to ride in one.

Steven

[Stan671]

They cannot be serious about that little caster-wheel in the front. That little thing drops into a pothole and you will end up face down on the pavement. And there is no way to jump off of that thing in case this happens. They have that large useless whiling-color display panel locking your legs in the machine.

There are no many non-essential parts on the iswing that will add to the cost, use up battery power and just make it look silly.

You cannot see behind you and you cannot even turn your head to see around you. With those silly things on the side of the place where your head goes, it is like wearing blinders.

FWIW, the reporter describes the two-wheel mode as uising a "computer controller pendulem". I don't see how, even taking into account how much reporters can mangle technical stuff, that a pendulem is anything like the dynamic stabilization the Segway uses.

[Desert_Seg]

I think the most telling comment is when the reporter stated that he wasn't allowed to try the i-Swing. I've looked at three (3) videos of the i-Swing at shows and it has ALWAYS been run by a Toyota rep (whether contract or otherwise).

Never were there folks lining up to ride it...and getting to!

Steven

[citivolus]

FWIW, the reporter describes the two-wheel mode as uising a "computer controller pendulem". I don't see how, even taking into account how much reporters can mangle technical stuff, that a pendulem is anything like the dynamic stabilization the Segway uses.
Technically, I think that is pretty close. IIRC in controls theory, a Segway does look like an inverted pendulum. To control an inverted pendulum the traditional way, the axis is fixed and the controller applies torque to hold the weight over the axis. On a Segway or Iswing the axis is allowed to move but everything else is the same from the point of view of the controller.

[roro]

Stan,

your review is great!

It's not allowed to get in because most of the people won't fit.
It's not allowed to take a ride, because it's not working.
Disconcerting.

In the Toyota Showroom they have a big screen which shows a computer animated Iswing-in-action-video.
Sad that this video is not real.

Was there also a computer animated Video Segway Video in 1980??
;-))

Rob

[Tarkus]

Stan,

Was there also a computer animated Video Segway Video in 1980??
;-))

Rob

No, but a HUGE amount of bravado before Ginger, IT, Segway made it's somewhat dubious debut.

In time there will be another Seg like product that is of the same quality.

But first the market must be there and at the moment it's not.

When Toyota pulls the trigger it will be a good product whatever its niche.

[mario-ramos]

Anyway that Bush's gift to Japan prime minister (a segway) made public was a reminder of who came first. The big guys are coming (toyota)

As i posted in another forum here, now we know that there are many "heavy" guys involved on the segway project. It's not just "a scooter".

http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/articles/060320fege01

[mario-ramos]

Anyway that Bush's gift to Japan prime minister (a segway) made public was a reminder of who came first. The big guys are coming (toyota)

As i posted in another forum here, now we know that there are many "heavy" guys involved on the segway project. It's not just "a scooter".

http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/articles/060320fege01

Some minds may have changed:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/maney/2003-06-17-segway_x.htm

[mario-ramos]

"Conspiracy" timeline: (eh eh)

October, 11th, 2005:
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/toyota-takes-an-iswing-at-segway-130243.php

November, 16th, 2005:
http://news.3yen.com/2005-11-16/bushs-surprise-gift-for-japanese-prime-minister-koizumi/

[Stan671]

Technically, I think that is pretty close. IIRC in controls theory, a Segway does look like an inverted pendulum
I understand that Segway's Dynamic Stabilization uses inverted pendulem theory, but the Segway has never been descibed as using a "computer controlled pendulem" to do it's magic. Not even the worst reporter has used an expression like that for the Segway.

This is one of the reasons why I suspect that the Toyota iSwing does not use the same Dynamic Stabilization technique as the Segway does. The other reason is that Segway, Inc. has patents on everything Segway-related and I doubt Toyota would step on those patents.

If you watch the video, when the rider is moving around in 2-wheel mode, s/he is very tentative and subdued. When a Segway, Inc factory rep (or any one of us) is demonstrating a Segway, we are all over the place with fast moves and spins, etc. in order to show off. I suspect that the slow movements the iSwing does in 2-wheel mode are all it can do. And I suspect that this limitation is because the method of stabilization used is by somehow moving a counterweight (pendulem) to counteract the falling action of the machine.

[Stan671]

The text of the article describing the iSwing mentions that the rider leans in order to help control the machine during a turn. Look at the rider - s/he is jammed into a narrow, form-fitting, high back chair. The rider cannot put any body language into the controls like we can on the Segway. You sit in the iSwing and ride it like a kid crammed into a car seat.

The machine does lean into turns when in 3-wheel mode because you can see the rear wheels tilting a bit as it makes a very impressive (not) 1 MPH, 10 foot diameter circle.

In it's present form, there is no way it can pass the NEV requirements to be able to ride on the street. And it is way too big for use on the sidewalk. So, it looks like it is only useful for doing slow motion maneuvers at car shows as a cheap publicity stunt.

[citivolus]

In it's present form, there is no way it can pass the NEV requirements to be able to ride on the street. And it is way too big for use on the sidewalk. So, it looks like it is only useful for doing slow motion maneuvers at car shows as a cheap publicity stunt.

I thought it moved much like the iBot does in balance mode since it has to first roll the wheels back to allow it to "fall" forward and initiate motion. I agree that they would either have to reinvent DS or license it. Also there is Yamafuji's Japanese patent(1) that may allow Toyota enough wiggle room to work off of and likely provide an opportunity to establish their own IP in the area. Clearly, it has some catching up to do but it will be interesting in the final form and definitely doesn't allow the Segway team any time to relax. ;)

Sure it might be a publicity stunt, but I think it is wonderful that they are even looking in that direction. Perhaps Toyota can see Dean's vision of the future and likes it. I do think the wireless 'link up' feature is cool.

(1)http://www.techgeek.com/subpage/index.phtml?topic=999&subtopic=998&item=1097

[Stan671]

The information about Yamafuji's Japanese patent is very interesting. I had not heard about this. From the description, however, even though the effect is the same - a self balancing machine - the method of balance is quite different from Yamafuji's device to Dean's. Yamafuji seems to be using a ground feeling sensor and a counterbalancing pendulem while Dean uses tilt sensors and motor controls.

Hmmm ... I wonder if this is the technology used in the Toyota iSwing? Actually, I would bet on it.

Also, keep in mind that DEKA developed the self balancing mode of the iBot long before it developed and then spun off the Segway HT product. I have heard that Dean and DEKA spent at least 20 years on the iBot technology. One would have to research the iBot patents to see what they patented for the self-balancing mode and when.

[mario-ramos]

The point is: whenever you have smoke, you have fire.
If a big guy like toyota is considering to enter this market, it means this is a big, big market.

[Sleepy]

I thought you all might be interested in this.
I got the i-Swing and the i-Unit brochures at the Cool Products Expo in Palo Alto yesterday. Segway Inc was there showing the Centaur and RMP. Here are some scans:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52435433@N00/

-Alex

[mario-ramos]

Wonderful. Would you be upset if I ask you to scan page 3 (specifications) again in a size that is readable?
Or send me via e-mail ( mario-ramos@uol.com.br )

[mario-ramos]

Oooops... Forget. I saw the expand button...

[Desert_Seg]

Thanks for posting those!

When looking at the specs it immediately becomes apparent that size is a major drawback...height, width, length, AND weight.

However, the design "wow" factor is there, especially on the apparent 4-wheel version on the last page (laid back model only!)

While I still believe there are major hurdles for the iSwing so overcome before adoption, this does validate the Segway. Now the pressure is on Inc to expand OUR horizons!

Steven

[citivolus]

That's the cool part Steven, the laid back model is the upright model. It's a convertible, so to speak.

[Desert_Seg]

Citi,

I realize that they are the same model but the difference between the upright and laid back models is huge....sort of like the difference between a Trabant and a DB9!

Steven

[citivolus]

Trabant?!
hmmm... lets see, ah there it is.

Wow! You weren't kidding. Those Trabant's are some pretty hot stuff! ;)
http://pascalpierart.free.fr/photos/script/albums/userpics/10001/normal_TUNING%20Trabant%20601%20Combi.JPG

Now if we could just find a way to have the DB9 look like a Trabant only when it was parked...

[Sleepy]

They had video of both models at the show. I think both are too big for sidewalks though. The i-Unit would definitely help with parking.

-Alex

[Stan671]

The specs say 330 pound curb weight and a 485 pounds gross weight. This seems to consider a 155 pound rider - certainly not ready for the America market. <grin>

The specs say maximum speed of 5 MPH in 2-wheel mode and 12.5 in 3-wheel mode. The specs also seem to indicate tested speeds of 6.2 in 2-wheel mode and 31 MPH in 3-wheel mode. The 2-wheel mode speed is not very impressive, but then again, it has to balance a 485 pound machine.

[bystander]

My interpretation of the higher speeds (6.2 & 31) is that it would be for a future upgraded model. I don't think the current battery technology will allow for this 485 pound vehicle to travel at 31 mph (with starts and stops) for very long. Is it telling that there is no "Range" listed on the Specifications page?

On the "Vehicle preface/Specification" page, I suspect the phrase "Official Evaluation" was mis-translated. Notice that some of the text on the other pages hasn't been "idiom translated", as switches are marked "Out of use", rather than "Not used". My hunch is that the word "evaluation" is a mis-translation of the word "evolution", indicating an intended future development. Just a hunch, though. I could be wrong.

Also, it's fairly obvious that i-swing & i-unit will not be traversing flights of stairs. Once it was said that the HT would encourage cities to be built to accommodate gliding patterns. Turns out the HT & i-bot are somewhat compatible with existing cities (and staircases) as-is, and the i-swing & i-unit positively require a redesign. Unless cars and trucks are eliminated, which I don't see happening anytime soon.

How about they point a camera backwards and put virtual rear-view mirrors on those retractable side displays? Technological overkill, I suppose.

[GadgetmanKen]

The other day our Governor was in Japan trying to drum up some business for the state, and was with the Secretary of Commerce. They went to Toyota, Subaru, and other auto makers trying to get them interested in building more plants in Indiana. They are seen here at this link trying the Toyota I-Unit. Be sure to hit the zoom button below the pic. I didn't realize that it had bright neon triming around it. Thats kinda cool.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060621/BUSINESS/606210391&SearchID=73248574272663
I think this I-Unit looks like an Emporers mobile throne/ chariot. Much to big for side walks even if it does bow down and go much faster. I do like the I-swing better.
Here is another much better pic of it in the low position from Wikipedia

Low rider position
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Toyota_I-Unit_low_position_with_passenger.jpg

Upright position
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Toyota_I-Unit_high_position.jpg