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Old 04-10-2014, 02:35 PM   #11
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[QUOTE=hsvendsen;233979Both units are on Li-Ion batteries.
[/QUOTE]

My understanding was that the upgrade for the e167 that added lithium ion support also removed the self-balancing.
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Old 04-10-2014, 08:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gihgehls View Post
My understanding was that the upgrade for the e167 that added lithium ion support also removed the self-balancing.
I had LiIons on my e-167, and it still balanced, after the recall and all upgrades.

They were actively de-e balancing all e-167 at the time of the recall in 2006 however. I had to be very vocal that I would not submit my e-167 for the recall if they were going to remove the self balance. Ultimately, they did the upgrade without removing the self balance.

I do not know how many machines lost and how many retained the self balance at this time, but I also do not know how many e-167s were produced, or how many i-167s were made into e-167s, and visa versa.
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Old 04-10-2014, 11:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gihgehls View Post
My understanding was that the upgrade for the e167 that added lithium ion support also removed the self-balancing.
Sounds dangerous to ride!
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Old 04-11-2014, 01:31 PM   #14
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Hahaha good catch. The feature we are referring to is the E-stand. The only working kickstand that Segway Inc ever made
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Old 05-10-2014, 06:07 PM   #15
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Great news... You moved e-167 motherboards -> e-180 correct? Does your self-balance feature still work?

jeff
Yes, I am back to self balancing which is what I prefer when I do my paper route.
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Old 05-10-2014, 06:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
I had LiIons on my e-167, and it still balanced, after the recall and all upgrades.

They were actively de-e balancing all e-167 at the time of the recall in 2006 however. I had to be very vocal that I would not submit my e-167 for the recall if they were going to remove the self balance. Ultimately, they did the upgrade without removing the self balance.

I do not know how many machines lost and how many retained the self balance at this time, but I also do not know how many e-167s were produced, or how many i-167s were made into e-167s, and visa versa.
I have owned three (3) e167s in my time. They were all converted to software version 12.0 and all retained the self balance feature.
I have never seen a comprehensive explanation for why this feature was discontinued. I can assume, however, that the 'sloppy' control shaft on the gen 2 machines would make self balancing impossible?
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Old 05-10-2014, 06:56 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSagal View Post
I had LiIons on my e-167, and it still balanced, after the recall and all upgrades.

They were actively de-e balancing all e-167 at the time of the recall in 2006 however. I had to be very vocal that I would not submit my e-167 for the recall if they were going to remove the self balance. Ultimately, they did the upgrade without removing the self balance.

I do not know how many machines lost and how many retained the self balance at this time, but I also do not know how many e-167s were produced, or how many i-167s were made into e-167s, and visa versa.
When I had my e167 off to Segway Inc. for diagnosis (late 2013) I also asked them if I could send them the motherboards for my i180 to have them 'upgraded' to e167 software. They flatly refused to do that, and told me that they routinely converted e167s in for repairs to i167/i180 configuration unless the customer insisted on retaining the E Stand feature.
I have read several posts regarding the poor/slow service and exorbitant costs charged by Segway Inc. I wholeheartedly agree with many of the complaints.
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Old 05-10-2014, 11:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hsvendsen View Post
I have owned three (3) e167s in my time. They were all converted to software version 12.0 and all retained the self balance feature.
I have never seen a comprehensive explanation for why this feature was discontinued. I can assume, however, that the 'sloppy' control shaft on the gen 2 machines would make self balancing impossible?
Hans, I was told many years ago, by the engineer in charge that a balance parking e-2 would not be that hard to make. Remember, the balancing parking function did not include steering.

I believe their decision factors were the liability issues primarily, and also the additional training and actual gliding differences.

In the early years, a very high percentage of lawsuits and complaints came from the e series, way out of proportion to the small percentage of those who had that feature.

This, at least, it what I was told.

So, it seems that to 'e' or not is not an engineering issue, but a management choice. This is the reason that during the recall of 2006, they converted most of the remaining e-167s that came in to i-167s. Clearly all those conversions would have nothing to do with the new lean steer.
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Old 05-11-2014, 08:14 AM   #19
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This question has been asked and answered many times...

The e-stand was discontinued because it was simply too hard to train people on. The only training that could properly explain and ensure people knew how to get on and off an e-stand Segway was in-person training. That gets expensive really quickly.

Add to the fact that Segway was maintaining three branches of software -- one for the i-167, one for the e-167, and one for the p series -- and it simply became basic economics that the company couldn't support all of this for very long.

Add to that that when it came down to sales, nobody much was buying the e-167 either. And it required those cargo bags in order to work -- something not every business customer wanted or needed.

I have no doubt that if the e-167 and the p series were sales hits, they might still be around today. But when the sales of them were not strong enough to support their ongoing development and the e-167 required that additional training effort, the decision was made to discontinue those two software branches and focus on just one. That freed up developer resources to ensure that one was the best it could be.

We did not have any lawsuits or anything of the sort related to the e-stand... People trained on the e-stand understood how to use it and it was fairly reliable as long as you remembered the rules about parking it and such.

It's no surprise the company doesn't support going back to that software version. That would be like someone asking Microsoft if they could fix their computer by re-installing Windows 95 on it, so you can get "real DOS" instead of the emulator.

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Old 05-11-2014, 09:05 AM   #20
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JohnG's perspective is his own. He worked at Segway for some time. And the mechanics of his last post are not dis-similar to mine.

There are a few differences regarding perspectives. The E program was laid out and used in the early Post Office trials. There were some problems of acceptance that were blamed on, rightly or wrongly, on the e-parking portion...

Also, as any corporate or employer purchased item, designed to get more production from an employee, that employee/glider is going to have a different mindset than an enthusiast plunking down their own money on a product. I was told, and believed, that injuries and complaints that came from this program was a far higher percentage than from the rest of the segway population in general.

Lastly, in 2006, there was a recall of all segways. The i2 was just out, and there were i series machines, e series machines, and p series machines. The i2s were upgraded with new software that did not change their operation, but did resolve the potential problem that initiated the recall. Same with gen 1 i versions, and p versions. But while I did have my e software upgraded, and retained my e parking features, (so the software did exist) the vast majority of e series machines were converted to i series machines.

There was a bit of pushback from current e series owners, who did not want to loose their e parking feature to have this recall/upgrade, and the company policy was to take in an e, and return that machine as an i.

This indicates to me, (as well as having been told this by persons in the decision process) that the decision to remove e and add i came from management, not engineering. And it was not from training nor sales, but from management just the same. The software was done at that time for e to continue, but the company chose another path.

This does not entirely contradict JohnG's point. In fact, it closely parallels it, but there is a different perspective, on a pretty similar path...

So, back to the original comment, No, the lean steer feature had nothing to do with the loss of e parking. That decision was made before the lean steer was introduced. (but not before the lean steer was engineered)
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