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Old 12-28-2016, 04:44 PM   #21
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Now need new oil, this is transmision oil from class GL-4, like 75W-90, 80W-90 and 85W-90. The last one is only for areas with very low temperatures.
I don't know whether these numbers are valid for a Seg, but in the general case, shouldn't the lowest viscosity oil (75W-90) be used for lower temperatures?

Personally, I don't think changing Seg gear case lubricant is necessary, or even advisable, especially at low mileage. Gear case / transmission oils for automobiles last MUCH longer than engine oil, which gets contaminated by combustion blow-by and moisture.

Also, keep in mind that seals that are used for petroleum oil may react poorly when exposed to some synthetics. One could end up with a much worse problem.
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Old 12-28-2016, 07:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by felix_fetche View Post
Now need new oil, this is transmision oil from class GL-4, like 75W-90, 80W-90 and 85W-90. The last one is only for areas with very low temperatures. I allways use 75W90, and it pretty smooth!
Have fun researching!
I think you have it backwards - 20 weight oil is for low temperatures. The higher the number, the thicker the oil. Those you mention are all hypoid gear oils, designed for automobile transmissions and differentials where the gears 'shear' the oil because they wipe across each other - Way, wwaaaayyy too heavy for use in a Seg gearbox with straight cut gears

I don't know this for a fact, but I would imagine a Seg gearbox comes from the factory with something very light, like ATF for its lubricant - If the old lube has a red tint to it, you'd know for sure it was ATF. If you want to go to something heavier, 20 weight motor oil would be a good choice, or 10W30 if you operate in cold weather. At freezing, 75W90 is closer to peanut butter than oil - It is very heavy oil intended for something which generates lots of heat, like a car transmission or differential. Definitely not correct for a Seg

As for how much to use - Assuming you don't have a leaking seal, drain the old oil into a measuring cup and replace with the same amount

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Old 12-29-2016, 03:02 AM   #23
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Is right original oil is something like the ATF.
Once the gear is gets noisy, forget the original fine oil.
Need T90, 75W, or 5W50. I also put 10ml of Metabond GT Plus.
Replacing the oil without bucsing the output shaft is not halping anyhow.
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Old 12-30-2016, 09:14 PM   #24
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I believe the wear that Felix describes is only for 1st-gen machines. From what I can tell, the 2nd-gen machines have a hardened output shaft. I didn't notice any wear or metal shavings when I cracked open the gearbox from the 2006 machine I dismantled. Then again, I don't think it had many miles on it. I have yet to try draining the oil from my 2010 (3,800 miles.)

If I remember correctly, the gearbox I opened has helical gears in it. I don't remember seeing any thrust bearings or angular contact bearings, so I may be mistaken. I'll have to go out in the shop and open it back up. I'll take some pics and see if I can get them posted up in here. I kept the oil in a cup for the very reason that Don mentioned. There certainly wasn't very much inside the gearbox, but it kind of seems like a synthetic gear oil to me. Not terribly heavy.
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Old 12-30-2016, 11:05 PM   #25
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It would not surprise me at all to learn that they used a synthetic lube in the I2 gearboxes. That just sounds like a Kamen solution - Go with the best, not the cheapest

I think they learned a lot from the first gen machines and they incorporated several changes in the I2's - Some of them were BIG changes. Segways were designed by a team of engineers led by another engineer with basically very few constraints placed on them by the usual 'bean counters' who rein in the engineering types to ensure that the final product will be reasonably enough priced to make it fairly easy to sell. Reading the 'Ginger' book was a look inside the development of an idea that we almost never get to see. They were *hoping* for a much lower price, but the solutions to many of the problems they encountered really drove up the final price. It turned out in the end that they made a high quality product which unfortunately was also priced so high they couldn't sell very many. That really dashed any chance of it becoming the revolutionary transportation innovation everyone was predicting - That part's very sad. Still, it's amazing to see what a team of engineers can accomplish when they aren't forced to design something to a set price point

The I2 didn't cost much more and is a much better machine for the dollar than the first gen. The best solution was chosen time after time rather than the cheapest solution - They all wanted to make something they could be very proud of . . . . . it just wound up costing twice what they anticipated

A used, low mileage I2 at half (or even less) of the original price is a terrific value - If it had been designed like the miniPro (constrained by being limited to a sellable price) a used machine with only a few thousand miles on it would probably be essentially junk and worth very little except for spare parts

I know very little about the first gen machines. When I decided we wanted to buy a pair of Segways, I did a lot of reading (some of it here) and quickly came to the conclusion I didn't want to buy first gen machines, even if I could pick up a pair of them up for only a few hundred dollars. We had already ridden rental I2's with tons of hard miles on them which were still going strong (some were quiet and some not so) and that gave us the confidence to look for good used, low mileage I2's. Without that experience, we would have bought new ones for sure - I didn't want to buy someone else's junk at any price

The changes to several things including the gearboxes have made the I2 much more reliable and much less likely to break than the early version - Look what a used set of first gen handlebars sells for!! Many parts of both look very much alike, but after several thousand miles, the differences become pretty clear - It would not surprise me at all if synthetic lubricant was chosen as part of the solution to the earlier gearbox problems . . . . along with small changes to the gears, bearings and shafts. Successful changes

If I ever get to the point where I think my gearbox oil needs changing, it will be with some synthetic lubricant for sure . . . . and likely *before* the gearbox begins to get noisy. Our highest mileage machine only has 2500 miles on it now - Just under 1000 miles on the other one and so far, both of them are equally quiet . . . . but if the higher mileage one ever begins to make even a little bit of gear whine, I won't hesitate to put a little heavier oil in it. It won't be 75W 90, but it will be something synthetic for sure

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Old 12-31-2016, 04:42 AM   #26
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What i talk regarding gearbox rebuild, is strictly about i2 manufactured after 2007. And the output shaft is the single part that meed to be fixed.
The shaft is not hardened at all, believe me! No ballbearings to replace, just clean and new oil.
Cheers! Happy New Year Mates!
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:34 PM   #27
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It may interest some here that the original gen 1 gear boxes were manufactured to specs from Segway by an outside company for Segway.

That company went out of business. After that, the gear boxes were manufactured in house. I suspect they still jobbed out the actual gear and shaft production, but all was assembled in house.

The original i2 gear box had a wheel flange that was not robust enough, and bent wheel flanges on the outside of the output shaft were common enough, so a hardened and more robust wheel flange was part of the improved gear box. I am not aware of any internal changes (like some shafts being hardened on later versions.)

Also, there has been a great deal of discussion over the years about the relative noise of the gear boxes. Some are quieter than others, and generally speaking, those of us who have owned several generations of segways have said that the gear noise on the i2 was louder than the gen 1. This is not always a function of miles however. Some have reported relatively new units with louder noises, and high mileage units that were quieter.

And for the record, I endorse any owner of any device doing anything they want to that device. I surely have modified many of the items I have owned to suit my taste. I have said this many times. But do not confuse this endorsement with my agreeing that the need to modify is not egocentric. Surely all of my modifications were, and will continue to be. Sometimes I will say and may feel it will improve the technical capacity of a given device, and it may be so, but it is always egocentric. And by my reckoning, that is not a bad word, or a bad thing.
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Old 01-01-2017, 03:12 PM   #28
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But do not confuse this endorsement with my agreeing that the need to modify is not egocentric. Surely all of my modifications were, and will continue to be. Sometimes I will say and may feel it will improve the technical capacity of a given device, and it may be so, but it is always egocentric. And by my reckoning, that is not a bad word, or a bad thing.
Quite obviously, I just do not understand the meaning of the word in this context

By definition, "Egocentrism is the inability to differentiate between self and other. More specifically, it is the inability to untangle subjective schemas from objective reality; an inability to understand or assume any perspective other than their own"

Many (most?) of us are by nature, tinkerers - Always looking to modify or improve things, especially when we find that things just don't work all that well as they were originally designed; or they fail to do the things we intended or would like them to do when we acquired them; or they just don't last as long as they should - So we make changes . . . . and that's certainly not a bad thing. Rank amateurs often make excellent changes to things designed by professional engineers who evidently have trouble seeing the forest for the trees

The need to modify something is somehow egocentric??

And, an inability to understand any perspective other than your own isn't a bad thing??

To my understanding, if it's not a 'bad word' it's definitely one with a very negative connotation - I certainly wouldn't use it to compliment anyone

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Old 01-02-2017, 12:03 PM   #29
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Don,

Spin it any way you want.

The inability to see that you are changing the oil in the segway gear box because you want to, instead of because it needs it, is egocentric.

I went to wiki and found your definition. I went to websters dictionary and found this passage...

Did You Know?
Ego means "I" in Latin. To an egocentric person, I is the most important word in the language. Great artists and writers are often egocentrics; such people can be hard to live with, though their egocentricity, an unfortunate side effect of their talent, is often forgiven. But ordinary egocentricity, which shows up as selfishness, lack of sympathy, and lack of interest in other people, usually has little to do with any personal talent or success.


I told you my definition of the word I used, and how I used it and how it applies. (to myself as well as the poster) You can choose to understand what I was saying or not. I do not have control of that.

You can also choose to find similar but more negative definitions of the word I used and try to bludgeon me with them. Go ahead. Have at it.

Either way, it does not impact the merit or need to change his oil, or in any way change or add to the topic at hand.

I can even save you some time. I will consider myself wrong in your eyes for having expressed my opinions. I will further consider myself wrong in your eyes for having chosen the words I used to express my opinion.

Lastly, do not fear for the lost sleep I will will experience over my understanding of my status in your eyes. I will not suffer.
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Old 01-02-2017, 03:30 PM   #30
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Don,

Spin it any way you want.

The inability to see that you are changing the oil in the segway gear box because you want to, instead of because it needs it, is egocentric.
I guess I need to let sleeping dogs lie at this point - We're on opposite sides of this fence . . . . but I know *I* wouldn't be changing the oil unless I truly believed it needed it. Why go to all that time, trouble and expense? - The gears/bearings are not as quiet as they used to be and the purpose of the oil change is to quiet them down and hopefully extend their life. I suspect that was the mindset of all here who are/were considering doing the same. The exact opposite of egocentric . . . . a maintenance action to extend the life and prevent a premature failure of something you love - Not thinking about yourself, but about the health of your machine

Preventative maintenance so I don't want to have to fork out my hard earned money to buy new gearboxes - Maybe THAT *is* egocentric . . . . but I still wouldn't call anyone that

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