Flying With Segway

[Pescador12]

Yeah, it came out more hateful than needed when re-reading it. The post was held in quarantine as a new user with no way easy of deleting it until it showed up a week later.

Forcing the issue to put a large battery on a plane against regulations, safety needs, or company policy is bullying. That is the way swagway hoverboards, drone batteries, mini ponies, and anything else, are forced onto aircraft.

I am not forcing anyone to sit on a power chair. I am just saying that huge lithium batteries should be left to ground shipping. Ship a battery ahead and have someone bring it to the airport for you. Ship another segway ahead. Rent a segway. Or use a flight legal sized battery. Or anything instead of insisting on someone's need for that hazardous battery (Segway built, third party rebuilt, or a Chinese clone/replacement) on board an inescapable tube 30,000 feet in the air. It takes a long time to safely descend from that high.

I spent years working on planes and loading mission equipment. There was always something hazardous that leadership thought had to be taken regardless of the rules because it was more convenient than employing safer ways. Safer ways that didn't break regulations. It turned out there was always another way.

That said I will leave it up to the airlines and FAA to figure out. A balance of one person's rights crossing another person's rights that the FAA can tune. I don't mind bringing mine and my wife's segway mini pros when we fly. They will even fit in the overhead bins.

[KSagal]

Pescador,

I tried to explain politely, that you are getting yourself worked up about that which you don't understand.

Luckily, you took the time to explain your ignorance much more thoroughly.

Perhaps next time you could try to know a little bit about the batteries you are complaining about on a segway forum. I really do believe what you are complaining about is technically unfounded, with regard to segways.

Now, you should also consider that you are being a major tool. Even if your complaint had any validity at all, which it does not in segway terms, you are suggesting totally unworkable suggestions to a problem that does not exist, except in your imagination. More than that, it is horribly insensitive, disrespectful and just plain foolish. In my opinion, you are not doing yourself nor your misguided object any good.

And for the record, as you used the term 'flight legal sized battery', which Segway batteries are, but with some restrictions. By the way, a dog is also flight legal, but with some restrictions. Cell phones are flight legal, but with some restrictions. Your carry on bag is flight legal, but with some restrictions. Etc...

Also,

Segways are expensive. Many people who use them do not have unlimited funds. Trucks do not frequently drive to places on the other side of oceans, and so many other flaws in your suggestions.

As a start, why don't you send a spare segway and a spare set of batteries to Oakridge, and don't forget your fed ex account number and credit card data for shipping, so that he can comply with your silly requirements. That at least would be a tiny step in the right direction.

[Paulvinet]

Forcing the issue to put a large battery on a plane against regulations, safety needs, or company policy is bullying.

Regarding your statement, let's be clear about things. There is no forcing going on,
here - regulations, safety needs, and company policies ensure that people with disabilities get the same respect as people without. No more and no less. And this is why it is ok acoording to regulations, safety procedures, and company policies to take an i2 with you on a flight. Don't confuse giving respect with being bullied. And never think for one second that respect is just a smile and a tip of the hat. That is just plain foolishness.

[Pescador12]

Originally Posted by KSagal

Pescador,

I tried to explain politely, that you are getting yourself worked up about that which you don't understand.

Luckily, you took the time to explain your ignorance much more thoroughly.

Perhaps next time you could try to know a little bit about the batteries you are complaining about on a segway forum. I really do believe what you are complaining about is technically unfounded, with regard to segways.

Now, you should also consider that you are being a major tool. Even if your complaint had any validity at all, which it does not in segway terms, you are suggesting totally unworkable suggestions to a problem that does not exist, except in your imagination. More than that, it is horribly insensitive, disrespectful and just plain foolish. In my opinion, you are not doing yourself nor your misguided object any good.

And for the record, as you used the term 'flight legal sized battery', which Segway batteries are, but with some restrictions. By the way, a dog is also flight legal, but with some restrictions. Cell phones are flight legal, but with some restrictions. Your carry on bag is flight legal, but with some restrictions. Etc...

Also,

Segways are expensive. Many people who use them do not have unlimited funds. Trucks do not frequently drive to places on the other side of oceans, and so many other flaws in your suggestions.

As a start, why don't you send a spare segway and a spare set of batteries to Oakridge, and don't forget your fed ex account number and credit card data for shipping, so that he can comply with your silly requirements. That at least would be a tiny step in the right direction.

Fair enough. Segways can fly on aircraft due to their batteries being slow charge and discharge types. Maybe more devices should use them so they can fly.

I say maybe because I was confused about this part of your previous reply -- "The travel restrictions do not take different kinds of Lithium batteries into account."

So Segways are restricted or not? I do take your point that Segways on flights are not dangerous even if disability laws put them on planes where they would normally be banned. It helps with the idea that a battery is hazardous, or not hazardous, to fly with depending on the health status of the passenger.

Currently it looks like the FAA and the PHMSA do not allow lithium batteries over 160wh to fly. Also, no spare batteries can fly in baggage unattached to their device. Loose batteries are a hazard. But there is unlimited watt hours for batteries installed in mobility assist devices. The small print says the mobility device needs to have shorted cell and damaged cell safety circuits. So not just any device can be brought on board as a mobility device (so battery is safe to fly based solely on the mobility device's safety circuits). Disabled flyers can check up to a 300wh spare battery in baggage.

Yeah you can find problems with my work-a-rounds/solutions. They were quick examples that solutions always exist for equipment that can't fly, such as golf carts that are also used as mobility devices according to ADA. Humans are inventive when facing problems. No I am not shipping a golf cart, with fed ex tracking number, to someone who prefers them over more easily traveled mobility devices.

phmsa.dot.gov/safetravel/batteries
usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/24/ups-crash-dubai-lithium/2582213/

[KSagal]

I have always considered ignorance as a fleeting thing. Once presented with actual facts, ignorance is no longer a factor. Stupidity, however, that one can be more persistent.

Not every law takes into account enough facts to make it actually do what it is intended to do. Banning all lithium batteries over a certain size does not enhance safety, if it bans good batteries as well as bad batteries. In this case, it can be a case where safety is not enhanced if you ban a battery that was not a safety problem, when you cause other problems because of the ban.

Several people have already posted, including me, that segway batteries are not banned, but are restricted in some ways.

Choosing to understand this, or not care about this, is not something I have any control over. Choosing to stop trying to explain a thing to someone who has chosen to not want an explanation is something I can do.

Choosing to act and speak with insensitivity and as a Luddite is a choice others can make for themselves, and this thread is proof that some will make that choice.

As a man who respects people who demonstrate respect and compassion for their fellow man, and has no respect for people who demonstrate disrespect and disdain for their fellow man, I am done with this thread for now...

[Pescador12]

Originally Posted by KSagal

I have always considered ignorance as a fleeting thing. Once presented with actual facts, ignorance is no longer a factor. Stupidity, however, that one can be more persistent.

Not every law takes into account enough facts to make it actually do what it is intended to do. Banning all lithium batteries over a certain size does not enhance safety, if it bans good batteries as well as bad batteries. In this case, it can be a case where safety is not enhanced if you ban a battery that was not a safety problem, when you cause other problems because of the ban.

Several people have already posted, including me, that segway batteries are not banned, but are restricted in some ways.

Choosing to understand this, or not care about this, is not something I have any control over. Choosing to stop trying to explain a thing to someone who has chosen to not want an explanation is something I can do.

Choosing to act and speak with insensitivity and as a Luddite is a choice others can make for themselves, and this thread is proof that some will make that choice.

As a man who respects people who demonstrate respect and compassion for their fellow man, and has no respect for people who demonstrate disrespect and disdain for their fellow man, I am done with this thread for now...

Well there we go. I have met Dick from the Internet (http://dilbert.com/series/67-Dick-from-the-Internet). You have intimidated me to submission through a fine use of insults. Insults used to support ideas that are not supportable through references. They have a word for this tactic that begins with "b" and ends with "y".

You theorize that Segway batteries are safer than other lithium batteries. You support this with insults. A counter thought on this is that Segway itself lists the batteries as hazardous material cargo (class 9, division II (misc haz items separated by barriers). They do this right on their website. Do we believe Dick from the Internet (now I am insulting) or Segway? Segway's webpages declare the batteries a hazard because they have more than 2 grams of lithium. The FAA also declares this is true. You insult as a way of presenting a counter view about the batteries. Furthermore, your view is suspect due to your bias towards Segway devices.

I do have compassion for, and am sensitive to, the hundreds of people, plus a crew, flying with the one guy who wants to bring a lithium powered OPDMD. Businesses (airlines) are free to not allow OPDMD's where they present a safety hazard. They are free to do this (and free to allow them) according to the DOJ website on the ADA (it might be why airlines have various Segway policies). But no one will mention that part of the ADA.

"So, you can attack me as much as you like for expressing my opinion, but it does not change it," so go bully someone else.

[segrick-ATL]

'...came out more hateful than needed?". Really? Hope your mother didn't read that!
Sounds like you've read some stuff, but more for rebuttal than for knowledge or perspective. I'll not bother with links to information that probably won't matter. Ksagal and others have been kind, considering... Its like a battle of wits with an unarmed man! I'm curios of the reason for your initial post? Did you want to be part of a growing, helpful community to share information and learn? Hmm, hows that working out? Don't get me wrong, everyone gets to have an opinion. I'm just hoping your perspective represents the small, narrow minority! Actually, maybe the smaller, the better...
Agree to disagree, and disengage.

[Civicsman]

1. Segway lithium-ion batteries are safer than other common lithium-ion battery technologies. Segway Gen 1 and I2/X2 machines use LiFeMgPO4 cells from Valence Technology. The trade name for the technology was "Saphion®", but this seems to have given way to just "LiFeMgPO4".
Some good information is here: https://www.valence.com/why-valence/safe/

2. Despite the fact that Segway uses safer technology, the batteries are still considered to be hazardous cargo, and are subject to many restrictions. Do they add some risk to a flight? Almost surely some risk, however slight, but I would feel comfortable traveling with Seg batteries in the cargo, which would NOT be true with any other lithium-ion battery technology. I am not aware of any Segway Gen 1/I2/X2 lithium-ion battery fires, ever.

3. I have no idea what lithium-ion technology the "New Segway" products (Mini-Pro, One S1) use. I suspect they may not be using Valence Saphion® technology, as it was notably more expensive than other technologies at one point in time, but I do not know this for certain.

Here is a movie comparing lithium-ion cobalt technology to Valence Saphion.

[Pescador12]

Originally Posted by Civicsman

1. Segway lithium-ion batteries are safer than other common lithium-ion battery technologies. Segway Gen 1 and I2/X2 machines use LiFeMgPO4 cells from Valence Technology. The trade name for the technology was "Saphion®", but this seems to have given way to just "LiFeMgPO4".
Some good information is here: https://www.valence.com/why-valence/safe/

2. Despite the fact that Segway uses safer technology, the batteries are still considered to be hazardous cargo, and are subject to many restrictions. Do they add some risk to a flight? Almost surely some risk, however slight, but I would feel comfortable traveling with Seg batteries in the cargo, which would NOT be true with any other lithium-ion battery technology. I am not aware of any Segway Gen 1/I2/X2 lithium-ion battery fires, ever.

3. I have no idea what lithium-ion technology the "New Segway" products (Mini-Pro, One S1) use. I suspect they may not be using Valence Saphion® technology, as it was notably more expensive than other technologies at one point in time, but I do not know this for certain.

That is an interesting video. Valence indicated that even if there was a fire next to a Valence cell, that cell would not catch fire due to the Phosphorous bond. Also, it said that other manufacturer's lithium batteries can't isolate a single cell's fire from the rest of the pack even if the manufactures claim it is protected. The fire of the regular lithium cells looked just like hover board fires while the Valence cells didn't catch fire. So they are safer cells. Valence 26650PC cells run $7.80 each if you buy a case of 160.

Segway lists Mini Pro as having LiCoO2 cells (ICR chemistry). Tear down videos of the Mini Pro show it to instead have 30 cells, 18650 size, model MG1, batteries made by LG. The MG1 is a lithium manganese nickel battery (INR chemistry LiMaNiCoO2). So it is still the cobalt oxide battery that can burn if damaged or faulty. They are $3.50 to $3.80 each depending on if you buy one or more than five.

Turns out there are forums dedicated to building 100+ cell battery packs out of 18650 batteries and salvaging them from laptops, crashed Chevy Volts, and Nissan electric cars.

[rwoynaro]

Originally Posted by OAKRIDGE

Sort of hard to disregard the hate in your post. Your remarks are down right ignorant and thoughtless. I completely understand the concerns you have but your statements were not respectful at all.

"Are hazardous battery powered Segways the only device disabled people can use to fly? Can't people who need mobility assistance use safe to fly lead acid battery based devices or the older nimh batteries?"

Your car/truck/motorcycle is also dangerous to people walking on the sidewalk and carries a hazardous material called gasoline or diesel. Could you not use a bicycle or merely walk instead??

"Sounds like my family's flight would be endangered by people who have to bring huge lithium batteries on board. Bullying others, with disability laws, to accept a needless hazard regardless of lithium batteries history of catching fire on their own."

Bullying others. Well that is exactly what you are doing with your comments. Look at your wording and you will see that you did nothing but bully those with disabilities. I served this country for 19 years of my life. I lost my entire left leg (hip down) and the lower portion of my right leg during my second tour in Afghanistan. I don't want pity or anyone to thank me for my service. I do want you to recognize that your statements imply that I must sit in a power chair when I have the ability to stand on a Segway to move around. You imply that I have to sit there and have everyone looking down upon me while speaking to me. That I can't go into a store and reach something on a shelf 5ft in the air. That I can't have people look at me on the Seg and see it as neat instead and having people engage me with interest. Instead you expect me to be content listening to parents quietly telling their kids to stop staring at the disabled guy. Have you ever had such a disability? Have you thought what it might be like to have these issues? Do you think this is what I wanted? Have you ever went through the mental mind screw of trying to learn to stand again? Now you say you are the one being bullied when you feel your comfort is more important than mine. The Segway is the one thing that allows me to be somewhat normal.

You will find in nearly every case lithium batteries only catch fire when they are not put together properly, not shipped properly, or become damaged. How many Segway machines have you heard of catching fire on a plane, train, or anywhere?

The world is not all about you, me, or anyone else. It's about US. I would politely request that you all put yourself in the shoes of someone else prior to posting such statements. I know that there are "some" very inconsiderate disabled folks out there, I have encountered them as well. I have also encountered a few folks that are not disabled that are not so polite either.

God Bless You and hopefully you see things from a different perspective a little better now as well.

Hi Oakridge:

I read your post and I am sorry to have to disagree with your wishes, but I just cant help myself but to thank you for what you have done for our country. I too am handicapped, but just from a medical condition, nothing that remotely compares with the heroics you displayed. its a great country, I am very greatful for all of the support and well-wishes I receive from ordinary citizens in my day-to-day adventures, and the ability for me to have a great life despite any hardcomings I have rests on the shoulders of heros like you who have made our country what it is. Sorry my friend, but you will always have my admiration and my eternal gratitude.